Hard Brexit

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Dont agree with that. What was voted on was based on complete lies & deceit. A large section will have voted to leave based on what Boris was waffling on about etc. If proper facts are available once all the negotiations are complete then the public should get the informed chance to decide if they still want to drive off the edge of the cliff or not. IMO. 

To just continue without the brakes and accept going back to victorian age when we could stip it would be just mental!

Going back to the Victorian age?

And the leave campaign is accused of misleading?

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Aye, they put up their two female victims, Ledson or May. Had their whips get one of them through to the leadership contest and then had Gove & Boris pretend to stab each other in the back so May would get put in the hot seat. 

 

They’ll have a clear path to power now with May taking all the blame.

 

They have got all the powers back from Devolved Countries, they’ve got all the Human Rights laws, Employment laws, Tax  and Standards ripped up. They can make their own trade deals, Privatise everything that isn’t nailed and make people work for 3 bucks an hour zero fecks given. 

 

All part of their vision but they had to create all these scenarios to move all the obstacles out of the way first while they remain blameless in the background.

 

Absolute blinder.

 

Poor bloody Theresa May looking like she wanted to curl up in a ball and greet during that press conference. 

I think you overestimate the political acumen of Boris. And isn't your view of "female victims" just a wee bit mysogenist?

And how have they got back all the powers if the devolved countries? And the employment laws and tax and standards etc ripped up? Has some sort of coup occurred?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[XB52]

59 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The electorate made a decision and it is the duty of the government to implement it.  The consequences of the decision were crystal clear, and people should stop bitching because their side lost the argument.

I sort of agree but, on your last bit, I would say both sides lost

[Francis Albert]

14 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I sort of agree but, on your last bit, I would say both sides lost

One side lost the vote which I think was the point

[frankblack]

42 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Dont agree with that. What was voted on was based on complete lies & deceit. A large section will have voted to leave based on what Boris was waffling on about etc. If proper facts are available once all the negotiations are complete then the public should get the informed chance to decide if they still want to drive off the edge of the cliff or not. IMO. 

To just continue without the brakes and accept going back to victorian age when we could stip it would be just mental!

 

Here we go - the public are clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote so lets go back and do it again?

 

The simple fact is that denying the electorate the right to see their will implemented as voted would be an affront to democracy.

[Space Mackerel]

21 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Here we go - the public are clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote so lets go back and do it again?

 

The simple fact is that denying the electorate the right to see their will implemented as voted would be an affront to democracy.

 

£350 MILION to the NHS and you swallowed it, they weaponised your own health being you sucked it up. That’s some power of the media. 

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

£350 MILION to the NHS and you swallowed it, they weaponised your own health being you sucked it up. That’s some power of the media. 

 

Nope - you swallowed it.  It had nothing to do with myself or my family voting for Brexit.

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I think you overestimate the political acumen of Boris. And isn't your view of "female victims" just a wee bit mysogenist?

And how have they got back all the powers if the devolved countries? And the employment laws and tax and standards etc ripped up? Has some sort of coup occurred?

I think the old boys club that Mogg and co belong to probably looked at it that way. 

 

Boris just does what he’s told. Him and Gove are like Lou and Andy from Little Britain. 

 

Employment Law - The impact of the UK’s membership of the EU in employment regulation grew considerably after 1997 when the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty started to apply. Until negotiations on the nature of the relationship between the EU and the UK after Brexit are complete, the extent to which European employment law will apply in the UK in the future is unclear. 

 

 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/divisions?policy=6703

 

All they have to do now is get rid off the British ones they don’t like. Which should be pretty easy when they have a majority. 

 

Tax - The tax laws of one country should not allow people to escape taxation in another. Given the cross-border nature of tax evasion and avoidance, EU-wide action is essential.

In recent years, substantial progress has been made. The EU now has an action plan, and several initiatives in place or under development – such as rules on information exchange between EU countries and a quick reaction mechanism to combat VAT fraud.

The EU also pays particular attention to fair company taxation. Loopholes between different countries' tax systems allow certain companies to engage in 'aggressive tax planning', to minimise their tax bills. Close coordination and information sharing between tax administrations aims to prevent this.

EU governments should also ensure their corporate tax regimes are open and fair, and not designed in a way which might unfairly lure firms away from other EU countries, or otherwise erode the tax base there. To this end, they have signed up to a code of conduct pledging not to do this.

 

They won’t have to bother with that anymore. 

 

 

EU Standards from the Horses mouth - 

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

 

No coup yet but there will be. 

[NANOJAMBO]

48 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Here we go - the public are clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote so lets go back and do it again?

 

The simple fact is that denying the electorate the right to see their will implemented as voted would be an affront to democracy.

No, it wouldn't because the referendum never said anything about it being implemented. 

 

Strangely, a government can get elected when it blatantly lies in it's manifesto , for example over tuition fees. But for some reason there is no hue & cry in the media and no demand for  the will of the people to be implemented when the government in question expressly goes against what it promised to do (and for which the public voted for) . And yet people go apoplectic when a referendum result-  that was non binding -  isn't seen to be delivered. Not only that, it doesn't matter what it delivers , good or bad, it just has to be delivered. Utterly bizarre. 

 

What is "their will " ?  There's a never ending stream of phone ins where angry Brexiteers are asked what they want from Brexit and virtually none can articulate what they were voting for originally or want  now other than the usual zeigeist of "taking back control, foreigners out, will of the people ...."

 

Time for a referendum on the content of the Brexit effect . Maybe now people really understand the consequences of leaving  they might think twice - although the country seems to be full of people who just don't want to consider the consequences and simply  "get on with it", as if they were giving up their membership of the local tennis club. 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by NANOJAMBO

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

No, it wouldn't because the referendum never said anything about it being implemented. 

 

Strangely, a government can get elected when it blatantly lies in it's manifesto , for example over tuition fees. But for some reason there is no hue & cry in the media and no demand for  the will of the people to be implemented when the government in question expressly goes against what it promised to do. And yet people go apoplectic when a referendum result that was non binding isn't seen to be delivered. Not only that, it doesn't matter what it delivers , good or bad, it just has to be delivered. Utterly bizarre. 

 

What is "their will " ?  There's a never ending stream of phone ins where angry Brexiteers are asked what they want from Brexit and virtually none can articulate what they were voting for originally or want  now. 

 

Time for a referendum on the content of the Brexit effect . Maybe now people really understand the consequences of leaving  they might think twice - although the country seems to be full of people who just don't want to consider the consequences and simply  "get on with it", as if they were giving up their membership of the local tennis club. 

 

 

You mean a referendum result that subsequently got parliamentary approval isn't binding?

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

You mean a referendum result that subsequently got parliamentary approval isn't binding?

I mean what I said. 

[frankblack]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

I mean what I said. 

 

Ok - then you are wrong.

[Francis Albert]

38 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

I think the old boys club that Mogg and co belong to probably looked at it that way. 

 

Boris just does what he’s told. Him and Gove are like Lou and Andy from Little Britain. 

 

Employment Law - The impact of the UK’s membership of the EU in employment regulation grew considerably after 1997 when the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty started to apply. Until negotiations on the nature of the relationship between the EU and the UK after Brexit are complete, the extent to which European employment law will apply in the UK in the future is unclear. 

 

 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/divisions?policy=6703

 

All they have to do now is get rid off the British ones they don’t like. Which should be pretty easy when they have a majority. 

 

Tax - The tax laws of one country should not allow people to escape taxation in another. Given the cross-border nature of tax evasion and avoidance, EU-wide action is essential.

In recent years, substantial progress has been made. The EU now has an action plan, and several initiatives in place or under development – such as rules on information exchange between EU countries and a quick reaction mechanism to combat VAT fraud.

The EU also pays particular attention to fair company taxation. Loopholes between different countries' tax systems allow certain companies to engage in 'aggressive tax planning', to minimise their tax bills. Close coordination and information sharing between tax administrations aims to prevent this.

EU governments should also ensure their corporate tax regimes are open and fair, and not designed in a way which might unfairly lure firms away from other EU countries, or otherwise erode the tax base there. To this end, they have signed up to a code of conduct pledging not to do this.

 

They won’t have to bother with that anymore. 

 

 

EU Standards from the Horses mouth - 

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

 

No coup yet but there will be. 

"When they have a majority"? They have the small matter of a UK parliamentary election before they can have a majority.

[Cruyff Turn]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

"When they have a majority"? They have the small matter of a UK parliamentary election before they can have a majority.

So you think Theresa May will serve her entire term in office until 2022? Or that there would have to be an election if she resigned or was removed in the time between now and the next GE in 2022? 

 

They already have a majority with the DUP propping them up. They got their billion pound bride so I doubt they would contest anything. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Cruyff Turn

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I think you overestimate the political acumen of Boris. And isn't your view of "female victims" just a wee bit mysogenist?

And how have they got back all the powers if the devolved countries? And the employment laws and tax and standards etc ripped up? Has some sort of coup occurred?

Have you missed the last 2 years?

May has been thrown under the bus. It's not misogyny, it's a fact. 

The EU withdrawal bill has ridden roughshod over the Scottish parliament.

The Tories have been itching to reverse employment law, food standards and just about anything else that stops them or their donors making a profit. 

There is a coup happening, right now in plain view and we'll all be paying for it for decades.

[Pans Jambo]

8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Here we go - the public are clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote so lets go back and do it again?

 

The simple fact is that denying the electorate the right to see their will implemented as voted would be an affront to democracy.

What did they vote for? The electorate was offerred lies & crap & the asked make an informed descision based on nonsense. 

 

I would like to think that by early next year we would have a better idea of exactly what is being offerred & how its going to affect peoples lives. 

 

With that solid knowledge we shoukd be offerred the opportunity to say if we want it or not. If the electorate still wants Brexit then they will vote for it. 

 

Whats to fear?

[The Mighty Thor]

16 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

What did they vote for? The electorate was offerred lies & crap & the asked make an informed descision based on nonsense. 

 

I would like to think that by early next year we would have a better idea of exactly what is being offerred & how its going to affect peoples lives. 

 

With that solid knowledge we shoukd be offerred the opportunity to say if we want it or not. If the electorate still wants Brexit then they will vote for it. 

 

Whats to fear?

Imagine if there was some kind of credible opposition party in Westminster?

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

What did they vote for? The electorate was offerred lies & crap & the asked make an informed descision based on nonsense. 

 

I would like to think that by early next year we would have a better idea of exactly what is being offerred & how its going to affect peoples lives. 

 

With that solid knowledge we shoukd be offerred the opportunity to say if we want it or not. If the electorate still wants Brexit then they will vote for it. 

 

Whats to fear?

 

The vote at the referendum was simply to leave the EU or remain.  We voted to leave, and that is what has to be done, and I think there will be a deal at about 1 minute to midnight the night before the deadline when both sides stop posturing.

 

There was never any option on the ballot paper to "vote leave but if we don't like it change our minds", which is just another means to force a remain vote.

 

I think one of the parties, possibly lib dems proposed a 3 way referendum with two leave possibilities and one remain option.  Do they seriously think people are that stupid that they can't see that trick in that proposal where the leave vote gets split two ways so that remain will always win?

[frankblack]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Imagine if there was some kind of credible opposition party in Westminster?

 

The problem Labour have is that a lot of the remain vote was their own supporters, which is why Jeremy Corbin is not willing to fight the Tories on Brexit.

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

The vote at the referendum was simply to leave the EU or remain.  We voted to leave, and that is what has to be done, and I think there will be a deal at about 1 minute to midnight the night before the deadline when both sides stop posturing.

 

There was never any option on the ballot paper to "vote leave but if we don't like it change our minds", which is just another means to force a remain vote.

 

I think one of the parties, possibly lib dems proposed a 3 way referendum with two leave possibilities and one remain option.  Do they seriously think people are that stupid that they can't see that trick in that proposal where the leave vote gets split two ways so that remain will always win?

But it wasnt to simply leave or remain was it. 

It was to stay with the slightly improved offer from the EU that Cameron negotiated or leave with all the bells & whistles that Boris et-al promised us (which turned out to be a load of pish). 

 

If the truth as we almost know it now was available back then do you think Brexit would have been the majority vote? 

[AlphonseCapone]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The problem Labour have is that a lot of the remain vote was their own supporters, which is why Jeremy Corbin is not willing to fight the Tories on Brexit.

 

What were your reasons for voting leave Frank? Would you be happy enough with no deal? 

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

What were your reasons for voting leave Frank? Would you be happy enough with no deal? 

 

A no deal proposal is still something I don't believe will happen unless the EU refuse to budge on the Irish border issue.  That isn't negotiable from the UK side.

 

I wanted a number of things, most notably the UK courts to have superiority over the EU courts on UK matters, a points based immigration system where those skills in need get priority over unskilled/low demand applicants, and also Brussels to have a fully audited budget signed off.

 

In terms of fishing I would like us to take back control of our waters to create more prosperity in that industry, and have freedom to do fair trade deals with the rest of the world.  The EU effectively punishes the poorer nations by beating them down by offering them all or nothing at their price.

 

Do I think I'll get what I want?  Doubtful - I expect the Tories to cave in and compromise on just about everything bar the Irish border.

Edited September 21, 2018 by frankblack

[Boris]

10 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The electorate made a decision and it is the duty of the government to implement it.  The consequences of the decision were crystal clear, and people should stop bitching because their side lost the argument.

 

Rubbish!

 

But if I am wrong I look forward to the £350m per week going to the NHS.  That was so crystal clear it was on the side of a bus!

[Boris]

40 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The vote at the referendum was simply to leave the EU or remain. 

 

So we could leave the EU, but still be part of the single market via EEA/EFTA (The Norway model?)

 

Why not this option from the Government?

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Rubbish!

 

But if I am wrong I look forward to the £350m per week going to the NHS.  That was so crystal clear it was on the side of a bus!

 

I hardly think many people bought into that.

 

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So we could leave the EU, but still be part of the single market via EEA/EFTA (The Norway model?)

 

Why not this option from the Government?

 

No, because the EU have made the single market and free movement of people non-negotiable.  I think this was made clear before the vote, but I could be wrong.

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

House of Commons Library Research states that around 13% of current law is influenced by Brussels.  

 

After Brexit you can potentially say goodbye to:

 

- Free movement of labor law

- Working time directive

- VAT on Energy Bill Law

- Climate change directives

- Clean water rules

- EU Food Standards

- Anti Tax Avoidance Directive

 

Careful for what you wish for.

 

All would be drafted into UK legislation and would require acts of parliament to remove.  I doubt the Tories would get majorities even in their own parties for removing any of those.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

I hardly think many people bought into that.

 

So the benefits of leaving weren't, ahem, crystal clear then?

 

Quote

 

No, because the EU have made the single market and free movement of people non-negotiable.  I think this was made clear before the vote, but I could be wrong.

 

So?  We would still have left the EU.  

 

An interesting review of the single market and the various groupings view on it.

 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/if-brexit-was-vote-leave-single-market-why-didnt-campaigners-say-so 

 

and another

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=QU4qy-RcT716fgnh_kNAdw 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Boris

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

All would be drafted into UK legislation and would require acts of parliament to remove.  I doubt the Tories would get majorities even in their own parties for removing any of those.

 

If the Tory party's donors and sponsors can benefit from these laws and regulations being removed, then they will be removed. To think otherwise is naive.

 

40 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Tories would advance anything to the detriment of the public for their own benefit.

 

Anyone who has lived under Thatcher onwards should be able to see that.

 

[Francis Albert]

9 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

So you think Theresa May will serve her entire term in office until 2022? Or that there would have to be an election if she resigned or was removed in the time between now and the next GE in 2022? 

 

They already have a majority with the DUP propping them up. They got their billion pound bride so I doubt they would contest anything. 

They don't have a majority of Tory MPS for even their flagship policy of Leave. Why do you suppose they will have a majority for the rest of their agenda?

[The Mighty Thor]

I'd love Theresa May to hold a presser today, call out JRM, Gove, Boris et al and resign on the spot telling them to fecking sort out the shit they started. 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

What did they vote for? The electorate was offerred lies & crap & the asked make an informed descision based on nonsense. 

 

I would like to think that by early next year we would have a better idea of exactly what is being offerred & how its going to affect peoples lives. 

 

With that solid knowledge we shoukd be offerred the opportunity to say if we want it or not. If the electorate still wants Brexit then they will vote for it. 

 

Whats to fear?

More "lies and crap". More Project Fear predictions of doom from Remain. More predictions of sunny uplands from Leave. How will we know as a "fact" how Leave, deal or no deal, will affect our lives?

 

And both sides lied or misled. What happened to the immediate recession and emergency budget we were promised by no less than the Chancellor of the Exchequer if we voted Leave?

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd love Theresa May to hold a presser today, call out JRM, Gove, Boris et al and resign on the spot telling them to fecking sort out the shit they started. 

That pussy Cameron started it then ran away!

[frankblack]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

If the Tory party's donors and sponsors can benefit from these laws and regulations being removed, then they will be removed. To think otherwise is naive.

 

 

Anyone who has lived under Thatcher onwards should be able to see that.

 

 

There has been a few posts above stating this.

 

I don't think there is a chance in hell of the far right getting their way in cancelling out those EU laws considering the slim majority they hold and clear disunity in the Tory party over Europe.

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

More "lies and crap". More Project Fear predictions of doom from Remain. More predictions of sunny uplands from Leave. How will we know as a "fact" how Leave, deal or no deal, will affect our lives?

 

And both sides lied or misled. What happened to the immediate recession and emergency budget we were promised by no less than the Chancellor of the Exchequer if we voted Leave?

Your point is moot.

We are where we are BECAUSE people were sold a pup. In almost every news outlet they are saying its a dead duck however; I am willing to give it a chance right up until the end of March.

 

THEN we will know the truth and if its a holocaust, why not allow a 2nd vote to avoid falling into the abyss?

 

Do you not believe or trust that people can and should make an informed decision? If its still leave then its still leave but when all the facts are established then they should be put to the people.

 

They have had over 2 years to get it sorted!

[Ibrahim Tall]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

That pussy Cameron started it then ran away!

No he didn't.

Cameron was an idiot for having a referendum in the first place but he neither 'started it' or 'ran away'. The issue was forced by the right of the Tory party/UKIP, and he was consistently "remain" so did the fairly honourable thing of stepping aside to let someone else make the decisions he didn't believe in.

 

Its not 'running away' to refuse to make what you think is a bad decision.

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

No he didn't.

Cameron was an idiot for having a referendum in the first place but he neither 'started it' or 'ran away'. The issue was forced by the right of the Tory party/UKIP, and he was consistently "remain" so did the fairly honourable thing of stepping aside to let someone else make the decisions he didn't believe in.

 

Its not 'running away' to refuse to make what you think is a bad decision.

He was the PM at the time. He should have told them to eff off but he was feart of UKIP and his back benchers. Stepping aside is running away. He could have been more prominent and told the truth when Boris was parading in front of his big bus.

[Geoff the Mince]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

He was the PM at the time. He should have told them to eff off but he was feart of UKIP and his back benchers. Stepping aside is running away. He could have been more prominent and told the truth when Boris was parading in front of his big bus.

Exactly he called the vote then shit the bed . . James O'Brien on LBC sounds more depressed than usual on Brexit .

[AlphonseCapone]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

A no deal proposal is still something I don't believe will happen unless the EU refuse to budge on the Irish border issue.  That isn't negotiable from the UK side.

 

I wanted a number of things, most notably the UK courts to have superiority over the EU courts on UK matters, a points based immigration system where those skills in need get priority over unskilled/low demand applicants, and also Brussels to have a fully audited budget signed off.

 

In terms of fishing I would like us to take back control of our waters to create more prosperity in that industry, and have freedom to do fair trade deals with the rest of the world.  The EU effectively punishes the poorer nations by beating them down by offering them all or nothing at their price.

 

Do I think I'll get what I want?  Doubtful - I expect the Tories to cave in and compromise on just about everything bar the Irish border.

 

Do you have zero concerns over things like employment law if it's solely dictated by Westminster? That's one of my concerns, I think many in the Conservatives would have Britain turned into a small USA regarding rights and regulations.

 

I do agree with a points and skill needs based immigration system for all. The current arrangement is discriminatory against those from outside the EU. 

 

Fishing is an issue I have to confess a lot of ignorance on. My main concern would be the cost of fish that we need to import though I don't actually know what we have in our own seas. 

 

In the end I think there will be some sort of deal but I reckon it will be one that pisses absolutely everyone off. 

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

No he didn't.

Cameron was an idiot for having a referendum in the first place but he neither 'started it' or 'ran away'. The issue was forced by the right of the Tory party/UKIP, and he was consistently "remain" so did the fairly honourable thing of stepping aside to let someone else make the decisions he didn't believe in.

 

Its not 'running away' to refuse to make what you think is a bad decision.

He promised during the referendum campaign that Article 50 would be invoked the day after a Leave vote.

He had the power to fulfil that promise.

Honourable?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

44 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Your point is moot.

We are where we are BECAUSE people were sold a pup. In almost every news outlet they are saying its a dead duck however; I am willing to give it a chance right up until the end of March.

 

THEN we will know the truth and if its a holocaust, why not allow a 2nd vote to avoid falling into the abyss?

 

Do you not believe or trust that people can and should make an informed decision? If its still leave then its still leave but when all the facts are established then they should be put to the people.

 

They have had over 2 years to get it sorted!

We won't know it is a "holocaust" or even if it is bad or good until 10 or 20 years after we leave. We won't know "all the facts". At a second referendum we will be fed the same misinformation, guesses, lies and propaganda that we were fed at the last.

The electorate, as in every democratic vote, has to be trusted to see through all that. And even if they don't their vote has to be respected

In the first Referendum they saw through Project Fear (which they were fed constantly including in a £9m leaflet drop to every household in the country at our expense (yet I have seen the Remain campaign's overspend of about 1% of that sum alone thrown into the argument for a re-run of the vote).

I think they also saw through many of the claims and assertions of the Leave campaign - it is not as if their implausibility was not also drawn to their attention. 

Since the result was announced there has been a concerted campaign to over-turn the result whatever the outcome of negotiations on the terms of our departure. There is one simple reason. The electorate gave the wrong answer, the answer they were not expected or meant to give.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Cade]

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Cade said:

Theres likely a whole lot more thats still to come to light.

[Francis Albert]

Ironic that Macron, in his attack on Brexiteer "liars" claims that they "left the next  day so they didn't have to manage it".

I think Cameron the leader of the Remain campaign was the only one who left the next day.

 

 

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

They don't have a majority of Tory MPS for even their flagship policy of Leave. Why do you suppose they will have a majority for the rest of their agenda?

Because when a No deal is concluded and May goes, the rest of the party will Unite behind the next leader. They will have to or otherwise it’ll be curtains for them in 2022.

 

As someone pointed out. If they want to negotiate trade deals with other Countries who have much looser standards & regulations, they will have to drop many British standards as well because British Standards at the moment are in line with EU standards and sometimes even stricter.

 

As you will probably know, many American, Chinese, Indian and South American products would not pass our current Standards and therefore we cannot import them as part of any future trade deals.

[Don Dan]

The whole thing is a steaming mess. We voted leave which we are trying to do. On leaving we want a trade deal which benefits both sides. There appears to be an united front in the EU but I hear various reports that behind the scenes it not quite the case. 

Here in the UK it’s a free for all with various views on what constitutes a good deal, there are those that want to stay (watching the antics of the EU leaders over the past two years you’d wonder why!) our biggest problem is there is no over all consensus due to the many factions fighting amonst themselves and to the EU that’s a bonus when it comes to negotiating as no matter what deal is put forward someone here will condemn it and the EU will use to their benefit.

My opinion is the EU don’t want us to leave and are putting up as many obstacles in the way as possible to stop it. 

My wife and I enjoy our holidays in Tenerife where we’ve been going three times a year for a number of years. We are off again in October then were going to spend a good few months there in from February as my wife will have retired by then. However as the return fights were released yesterday I chose to return on the 27th March as I have no idea of what will happen after the 29th. 

I understand how others feel both UK and citizens of the other EU countries as the future is uncertain. 

I was of the opinion there will be a deal but that opinion changes on almost a daily basis. I’ve taken to not watching the news these days where it concerns Brexit as various channels and papers don’t report accurately and cherry pick what to report and how to spin it (nothing new there) As for future Tenerife holidays I’m sure they’ll happen once the dust has settled. 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Dannie Boy

[Unknown user]

From the EU's point of view, the uk has to be seen be worse off for leaving, otherwise what keeps everyone else in the club? Because of that, there's only so far they'll be willing to bend, and the prospect of a no deal exit seems more and more likely. 

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, Smithee said:

From the EU's point of view, the uk has to be seen be worse off for leaving, otherwise what keeps everyone else in the club? Because of that, there's only so far they'll be willing to bend, and the prospect of a no deal exit seems more and more likely. 

 

What we have is basically a Mexican Standoff where one side is going to cave in at the last minute.

[Cade]

The EU are not, ever, going to divide the 4 Freedoms.

 

It's really that simple.

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

Maybot live statement at 1:45 regarding Brexit. 

 

Be liveon Sky news etc. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

He promised during the referendum campaign that Article 50 would be invoked the day after a Leave vote.

He had the power to fulfil that promise.

Honourable?

 

Honourable in that he gave 'Brexit' the chance to have a Brexit leader. Cameron didn't want Brexit, he openly campaigned against and predicted nothing but doom if it came about. Him staying on was never an option.