Catalonia referendum

[redjambo]

He's done a "Salmond"

- tried to make himself a political figure of historical and national significance regardless of the consequences.

He has engineered a situation that regardless of outcome can be spun to make himself look like a Catalan hero

 

And I'm sure that's the only reason he's doing all this.

 

[doctor jambo]

And I'm sure that's the only reason he's doing all this.

 

Yep, a politician putting himself and his desires before the good of the people he has been elected to represent has NEVER happened, like ever before.

I am sure he wants independence and he wants to be the one who did it

So he organised an "event" that would give a non validated, non corroborated result that no-one outside Zimbabwe would think had been done properly,

Then used said result to somehow validate the wishes of himself and possibly a minority of his voters

So yes, it looks to me like a vainglorious attempt to deify himself

[redjambo]

Yep, a politician putting himself and his desires before the good of the people he has been elected to represent has NEVER happened, like ever before.

I am sure he wants independence and he wants to be the one who did it

So he organised an "event" that would give a non validated, non corroborated result that no-one outside Zimbabwe would think had been done properly,

Then used said result to somehow validate the wishes of himself and possibly a minority of his voters

So yes, it looks to me like a vainglorious attempt to deify himself

 

I am no longer shocked by the stuff you come out with, DJ.

[NANOJAMBO]

Superb video from Canal+ in France.

 

http://twitter.com/canalplus

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Spain apologised then says its your own fault, hope they declare independence.

[Gorgiewave]

Spain apologised then says its your own fault, hope they declare independence.

So do I. Then it really will be jail.

 

Numerous banks and other large companies have transferred their HQs to outside Catalonia. Artur Mas, the previous Catalan president, has said Catalonia is not ready for real independence. It's over.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

So do I. Then it really will be jail.

 

Numerous banks and other large companies have transferred their HQs to outside Catalonia. Artur Mas, the previous Catalan president, has said Catalonia is not ready for real independence. It's over.

Let?s hope they go UDI & mad-rid removes the power back to the capital. **** the banks. And if nothing else GW piss is boiled??

[Space Mackerel]

Spanish kings interjecting about democracy is the icing on the cake in my book.

[Gorgiewave]

Spanish kings interjecting about democracy is the icing on the cake in my book.

 

It's barely been mentioned since about a day after he spoke. You're just indulging your adolescent republicanism.

[Space Mackerel]

It's barely been mentioned since about a day after he spoke. You're just indulging your adolescent republicanism.

Imagine, for a second, in this day and age, 2017 AD, modern education, the internet is in full swing, thinking some person is better, superb even, because they fell out of a certain genome human reproductive system and nothing else.

[Gorgiewave]

Imagine, for a second, in this day and age, 2017 AD, modern education, the internet is in full swing, thinking some person is better, superb even, because they fell out of a certain genome human reproductive system and nothing else.

The Spanish monarchy was restored and its role is regulated in the Spanish Constitution, which was approved by 91% of the population of Catalonia. It does not mention anything about the king or queen being "superior."

 

As I've said before on this thread, the previous king is highly popular because his intervention prevented an attempted coup in 1981 to restore fascism. Fascism would have returned to Spain on 23 February 1981 had it not been for...the king.

[Gorgiewave]

It now turns out that the President of Catalonia tried to order 850 rifles and millions of rounds, several times larger than any previous order. The Ministry of Defence asked the Catalan government to explain why they needed so many guns. No reply was received. No order placed.

 

It's suspected that the intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army. Whether to have Spain fund the army of the new country or for a military confrontation with Spain, ABC newspaper doesn't say.

[Ulysses]

.....850 rifles.....

 

..... intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army.....

 

.....a military confrontation with Spain....

 

 

[Unknown user]

It now turns out that the President of Catalonia tried to order 850 rifles and millions of rounds, several times larger than any previous order. The Ministry of Defence asked the Catalan government to explain why they needed so many guns. No reply was received. No order placed.

 

It's suspected that the intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army. Whether to have Spain fund the army of the new country or for a military confrontation with Spain, ABC newspaper doesn't say.

An army of 850 people aye?

 

Is this being reported anywhere other than El Daily Mail out of interest?

[redjambo]

It now turns out that the President of Catalonia tried to order 850 rifles and millions of rounds, several times larger than any previous order. The Ministry of Defence asked the Catalan government to explain why they needed so many guns. No reply was received. No order placed.

 

It's suspected that the intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army. Whether to have Spain fund the army of the new country or for a military confrontation with Spain, ABC newspaper doesn't say.

 

This is a classic government info leak intended to justify forthcoming military intervention (most folk in the street won't realise how inconsequential an order of 850 guns is for a region of 7 million people). It looks as if the Spanish army will be going in very soon - doesn't augur well for the days ahead.

[redjambo]

It's barely been mentioned since about a day after he spoke. You're just indulging your adolescent republicanism.

 

This would have had the potential to have been a decent opinion/comment if it weren't for the adolescent inclusion of the word "adolescent".

[Psychedelicropcircle]

GW indulging in some good ole referenda fearmongering.

[Boab]

Deary me !

[Toggie88]

It's barely been mentioned since about a day after he spoke. You're just indulging your adolescent republicanism.

 

"Adolescent republicanism"??? 

 

I think advocating a form of government which treats every person as an equal and which nobody is above the law, is more adult than believing that a person has a divine right to rule and is above everyone else in the state... 

[yabadabadoo1874again]

It now turns out that the President of Catalonia tried to order 850 rifles and millions of rounds, several times larger than any previous order. The Ministry of Defence asked the Catalan government to explain why they needed so many guns. No reply was received. No order placed.

 

It's suspected that the intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army. Whether to have Spain fund the army of the new country or for a military confrontation with Spain, ABC newspaper doesn't say.

Easily ingested propaganda. No?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

"Adolescent republicanism"???

 

I think advocating a form of government which treats every person as an equal and which nobody is above the law, is more adult than believing that a person has a divine right to rule and is above everyone else in the state...

If it had been President Felipe instead of a King, the content would have been similar. The Catalonian referendum didn't even pass the Catalan parliament so they acted ultra vires.

[Ibrahim Tall]

It now turns out that the President of Catalonia tried to order 850 rifles and millions of rounds, several times larger than any previous order. The Ministry of Defence asked the Catalan government to explain why they needed so many guns. No reply was received. No order placed.

It's suspected that the intention was to turn the Catalan police into a separate Catalan army. Whether to have Spain fund the army of the new country or for a military confrontation with Spain, ABC newspaper doesn't say.

 

A whole 850? Rajoy is rightly worried, with an army that size they might have taken over the Camp Nou.

[Unknown user]

 

A whole 850? Rajoy is rightly worried, with an army that size they might have taken over the Camp Nou.

Or at least La Masia

[Mikey1874]

Decent speech. Fair enough. 'Long' term strategy.

 

Of course majority of people still prefer to stay with Spain. 

 

Worth repeating that. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Bottled the UDI proclamation then!! 

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Decent speech. Fair enough. 'Long' term strategy.

 

Of course majority of people still prefer to stay with Spain. 

 

Worth repeating that. 

 

There's no conclusive evidence of that from recent polls (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_referendum#Opinion_polls).

 

What we need is a properly run referendum.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Bottled the UDI proclamation then!! 

 

Postponed, I would say. Wants to appear to be reasonable and give Spain a chance to negotiate, knowing full well that Spain won't budge an inch. Then, after a few weeks of complete impasse, UDI will be announced. Clever strategy (or at least cleverer than immediate UDI).

[Space Mackerel]

40 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Decent speech. Fair enough. 'Long' term strategy.

 

Of course majority of people still prefer to stay with Spain. 

 

Worth repeating that. 

 

You know this how?

[Gorgiewave]

3 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Postponed, I would say. Wants to appear to be reasonable and give Spain a chance to negotiate, knowing full well that Spain won't budge an inch. Then, after a few weeks of complete impasse, UDI will be announced. Clever strategy (or at least cleverer than immediate UDI).

 

He's getting closer to prison every day. But he shat it today. Shat it.

 

Impasse and refusal to compromise are what's needed. You seem to relish the methods of bullies and blackmailers.

[redjambo]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

He's getting closer to prison every day. But he shat it today. Shat it.

 

Impasse and refusal to compromise are what's needed. You seem to relish the methods of bullies and blackmailers.

 

I'll ignore the bit in bold because I'm used to your keyboard hardman approach to other posters by now. I was hoping that you'd change with the new forum, but there you go.

 

Looking at it from an objective viewpoint, one of the disadvantages of the route that he has now taken is that, unless the Spanish government does anything else stupid, he risks losing the momentum that the independence movement has built up in the last few weeks. Pro-independence supporters were reported to be heading home a bit deflated. He needed to keep that communal motivation up at full volume, especially after the size of the anti-secession demonstration. His speech didn't really do that, and I think he'll notice the after-affects very quickly.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Puigdemont is a shitebag. 

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Puigdemont is a shitebag. 

 

An intriguing sociopolitical argument.

 

In what way?

[Ibrahim Tall]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

An intriguing sociopolitical argument.

 

In what way?

 

Via inaction.

 

I'm not even debating the legality or politics of independence, that's another argument. Main issue is wasting 2 years, millions of Euros and millions of people's time. Along with all the trouble, arguments and injuries as a result for a referendum he isn't even willing to call the result of. Guys an attention seeking cretin. 

 

[redjambo]

Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

Via inaction.

 

I'm not even debating the legality or politics of independence, that's another argument. Main issue is wasting 2 years, millions of Euros and millions of people's time. Along with all the trouble, arguments and injuries as a result for a referendum he isn't even willing to call the result of. Guys an attention seeking cretin. 

 

 

He did call the result, publicly, then "declared" independence but delayed the implementation of that declaration. It's now a game of high-stakes chess that he and Rajoy are playing. Puigdemont wants Rajoy to make the next move (invoking article 155 and/or physical intervention) so that Puigdemont's and Catalonia's subsequent actions will be "justified". He's trying to provoke Rajoy into making a wrong move. Given Catalonia's lack of defence against military intervention, it's one of the very few options left to him.

 

If Catalonia obtains independence, will that time and money be considered wasted?

 

I have to say, so that you know where I'm coming from, I'm not necessarily a supporter of Catalan independence. I do believe however that the Catalans have the right to determine whether they become independent or not.

[Gorgiewave]

Two Catalan independence campaign leaders sent to jail and the Chief of the Catalan police has his passport confiscated:

 

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/16/59e454db22601d2c7b8b45e1.html

[Don Dan]

As above http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/two-catalan-pro-independence-leaders-jailed-on-sedition-probe-1-4588585

 

 

[Aussie]

On 16/10/2017 at 20:53, Gorgiewave said:

Two Catalan independence campaign leaders sent to jail and the Chief of the Catalan police has his passport confiscated:

 

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/16/59e454db22601d2c7b8b45e1.html

Maybe the EU should ignore the EUref result, take control of Westminster and jail all brexiteers.

Well at least send in the EU stormtroopers to leather the Brits. You know... Just like Castile did.

 

 

 

 

UDI!!!

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

 

 

 

 

Mintit!!!

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

54 minutes ago, Aussie said:

Maybe the EU should ignore the EUref result, take control of Westminster and jail all brexiteers.

Well at least send in the EU stormtroopers to leather the Brits. You know... Just like Castile did.

 

 

 

 

UDI!!!

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

 

 

 

 

Mintit!!!

Time to put you on ignore. 

 

Again. 

[Aussie]

Who said that?

 

 

 

 

BTW, when Catalonia do declare, they automatically come under the protection of the U.N. So Spain... Be careful you don't become the new Kosovo.

[redjambo]

46 minutes ago, Aussie said:

BTW, when Catalonia do declare, they automatically come under the protection of the U.N. So Spain... Be careful you don't become the new Kosovo.

 

Out of interest, can you provide any links that show that UN protections offered to Catalonia and Catalonians as part of Spain would change if they declared UDI?

 

Also, if your logic were correct, wouldn't Spain be the new Serbia? The comparison isn't correct anyway, imo, because the Kosovo situation is quite different from the Catalonia situation, not least because the UN went into Kosovo at the end of the Balkan conflict, a number of years before Albania declared independence.

[Gorgiewave]

6 hours ago, Aussie said:

Maybe the EU should ignore the EUref result, take control of Westminster and jail all brexiteers.

Well at least send in the EU stormtroopers to leather the Brits. You know... Just like Castile did.

 

 

 

 

UDI!!!

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

 

 

 

 

Mintit!!!

 

 

Banned aussieh disguised very cunningly as Aussie.

But still British and still a subject of Our Gracious Sovereign.

 

 

 

[redjambo]

4 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Out of interest, can you provide any links that show that UN protections offered to Catalonia and Catalonians as part of Spain would change if they declared UDI?

 

Also, if your logic were correct, wouldn't Spain be the new Serbia? The comparison isn't correct anyway, imo, because the Kosovo situation is quite different from the Catalonia situation, not least because the UN went into Kosovo at the end of the Balkan conflict, a number of years before Albania declared independence.

 

... before Kosovo declared independence.

 

I've noticed this quite a lot lately with my posts, that I read and re-read something I've written and it looks ok, and then I notice later there's a glaring error in it. Hope it's not early onset Alzheimers!

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

 

Banned aussieh disguised very cunningly as Aussie.

But still British and still a subject of Our Gracious Sovereign.

 

 

 

 

Strange post from a Spanish National  right wing supporting facist. 

 

Hey ho, each to their own though.

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Strange post from a Spanish National  right wing supporting facist. 

 

Hey ho, each to their own though.

 

I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against faces.

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against faces.

 

Or Spain. Or Hearts. 

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Or Spain. Or Hearts. 

I have some things against Spain, but nothing against Hearts. Hearts have been my team since I was born, and they always will be my team.

[Space Mackerel]

17 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I have some things against Spain, but nothing against Hearts. Hearts have been my team since I was born, and they always will be my team.

 

I almost imagined that was said in the tone of Metal Mickey 

[redjambo]

32 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against faces.

 

I hadn't heard that one before - it brought a smile to my face.

 

Not, of course, the first time I've smiled when reading one of your posts, but for a different reason than usual this time.

[Boris]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086

 

This will end well...

 

Suspending Catalonia's autonomy isn't the wisest of moves from the Spanish Govt. imo.

 

Way to radicalise moderates.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086

 

This will end well...

 

Suspending Catalonia's autonomy isn't the wisest of moves from the Spanish Govt. imo.

 

Way to radicalise moderates.

 

You just beat me to it Boris, was about to post the same.

 

Agreed, the shit is about to hit the fan as there is no way either side can climb down now and it's only going to unite the Catalan people against Madrid's rule.