Catalonia referendum

[Gorgiewave]

It can do.

 

Essentially, loyalty in NI is being loyal to the crown, not Westminster. Oh and the half crown in some instances too.

I got chatting with some people from the Loyal Peoples Protest at their flag protest outside Belfast City Hall. It was a useful insight into how they think. The intensity of the emotions was draining. Just as well we won 1-4.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

The name in English of this region of Spain is Catalonia. Catalunya is the name to use if you're writing (or speaking) in Catalan.

 

Thank you! One thing that's been bugging my thruppenies are the amount of people tweeting/posting on social media in English using the word Catalunya.  Like it's some hipster badge or something. 

[Thaw]

The name in English of this region of Spain is Catalonia. Catalunya is the name to use if you're writing (or speaking) in Catalan.

 

I promise never again to accuse you of having a certain je ne sais quoi.

[John Findlay]

Of course the police force at that time was a Spanish police force. In Franco's time all police in Spain were part of a Spanish police force. Franco was not strong on autonomy. Nevertheless many Catalans of course served as policemen in Catalonia.

 

I think it likely that if and when Catalonia becomes independent it will employ a police force in the European style, willing and able to clamp down strongly on any movement to reunite Catalonia with Spain.

 

The Catalans cultivate this cuddly image of an open, liberal, tolerant society (a bit like the Scots) but in fact Catalonia historically has been a hotbed of extremists, Infighting between extremist Republican factions in Catalonia contributed to Franco's victory in the Civil War.

 

(And we Scots like to gloss over, in our self image as a people oppressed by English colonialism, that we were absolutely in the forefront of British colonialism and its many atrocities)

I'm well aware of how the 1936-38 Spanish civil war went. I've read my Hemmingway:-0).

 

I am more aware of how many Scots contributed to the British empire both bad and good.

[Toggie88]

Quite, but Scotland and Catalonia are parts of Spain and the UK respectively. On an independence vote, they would become new countries and would have to apply for membership on their own merits.

Not the case. 

 

There is nothing in the TEU or TFEU Treaties on the issue of independence from a MS and internal enlargement. It would be a matter for EU and the Commission would likely issue a recommendation but ultimately it will come down to the MS agreeing what happens. 

 

Regardless, both Catalan and Scottish law are intertwined with European law (for the moment) and both are in full compliance with the acquis communitaire. The membership process, in the unlikely event either were booted out, would take hardly any time at all.

 

The EU has precedent of being flexible when it comes to constitutional/membership issues - see: Irish & Dutch referenda, Greenland. It would be cost the EU serious administrative, physical and economic issues to try and kick-out either newly independent state. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Not the case.

 

There is nothing in the TEU or TFEU Treaties on the issue of independence from a MS and internal enlargement. It would be a matter for EU and the Commission would likely issue a recommendation but ultimately it will come down to the MS agreeing what happens.

 

Regardless, both Catalan and Scottish law are intertwined with European law (for the moment) and both are in full compliance with the acquis communitaire. The membership process, in the unlikely event either were booted out, would take hardly any time at all.

 

The EU has precedent of being flexible when it comes to constitutional/membership issues - see: Irish & Dutch referenda, Greenland. It would be cost the EU serious administrative, physical and economic issues to try and kick-out either newly independent state.

There would be a cost but it would also need approval from the Council of Ministers with unanimity required.

 

There is no danger Spain would approve of Catalan UDI in this fashion.

[Unknown user]

Yes, the were.

They were attending an illegal event, to participate in such an illegal event, with the desired outcome of said event being to strip the Spanish citizenship from millions of people

 

Should we not be viewing this as the protection of the civil rights of millions of people from the vociferous posturing of a minority?

I think you're missing a key point - holding a referendum may be illegal (it also might not, that's not actually been established yet), but voting in one is NOT, even if you want to call it participating in an illegal event.

[Toggie88]

There would be a cost but it would also need approval from the Council of Ministers with unanimity required.

 

There is no danger Spain would approve of Catalan UDI in this fashion.

 

Most likely. 

 

There's a huge difference between the Catalan situation now and the 2014 referendum. 

 

What happens here is anyone's guess. The Spanish seem unlikely to acknowledge any declaration of independence. Ultimately, it could come down the international pressure placed on them by other nations and any recoginition of Catalan independence by other nations. 

[Toggie88]

double post

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Most likely. 

 

There's a huge difference between the Catalan situation now and the 2014 referendum. 

 

What happens here is anyone's guess. The Spanish seem unlikely to acknowledge any declaration of independence. Ultimately, it could come down the international pressure placed on them by other nations and any recoginition of Catalan independence by other nations. 

Agree there is a huge difference between this farce and the Scottish referendum. For starters, the latter was agreed and followed standard democratic processes. The former was at best a Strathclyde water privatisation poll. That the Spanish overreacted to the farce is a matter for them but the Catalans have no political capital here to claim any kind of nationhood. They aren't exactly a Kosovo or a disputed territory like Kurdistan. They are part of a stable democracy for the best part of the last 40 years, have a lot of federal autonomy and whose rights are recognised, such as language. In addition, Spain is an important member of the EU and NATO and is undoubtedly important when gathering intelligence on Islamic terrorism. In short, the Catalans don't have a leg to stand on.

[Francis Albert]

I'm well aware of how the 1936-38 Spanish civil war went. I've read my Hemmingway:-0).

I am more aware of how many Scots contributed to the British empire both bad and good.

hemingway? Try orwell and hugh thomas.

[Francis Albert]

Most likely. 

 

There's a huge difference between the Catalan situation now and the 2014 referendum. 

 

What happens here is anyone's guess. The Spanish seem unlikely to acknowledge any declaration of independence. Ultimately, it could come down the international pressure placed on them by other nations and any recoginition of Catalan independence by other nations. 

"Unlikely to acknowledge"??? There would be no international pressure on Spain if Catalonia declared UDI on the basis of this referendum, except for some pressure to oppose it. And there would be no recognition of the new Catalonian state. Well maybe by North Korea just for the hell of it.

 

This is fantasy even exceeding the Scottish Government's pathetic attempts to whip up support from EU members on the basis that we voted against Brexit.

[redm]

Thank you! One thing that's been bugging my thruppenies are the amount of people tweeting/posting on social media in English using the word Catalunya. Like it's some hipster badge or something.

I use Catalunya most of the time because it's the word they use, and also because I visited Calella de Palafrugell every summer for years when I was little and that's what they call it too, so that's just what I thought it was. I think Catalonia sounds a bit clunky.

 

It's not a hipster badge. I'm far from hipster. Sadly.

[JamboX2]

Edit: is it even definitely illegal to organise the vote itself?

Yes. It broke aspects of the Spanish constitution, was started by an AcT of the Catalan Parliament which was not in its power to pass and went against the decision of the highest Constitutional Court's in Spain ruling.

 

Was something put in place to criminalise the event or the act of holding a vote after the SC confirmed the referendum wouldn't be lawful? I haven't read much on this part yet.

Yes the Constitution. Spain has a written constitution. It states that it is the duty of the state to defend Spain's territorial integrity. At the same time it bans secessionist votes from taking place.

 

There are similar interpretations in other nations constitutions on this: Germany and France's highest courts have said theor constitutions do not allow for separatism from the nation.

 

The UK has an unwritten constitution. There are a variety of Acts which govern elections, franchises, courts and rights but no written body of laws governing how the state is formed or run. There is political rules and conventions (i.e. in a hung parliament the incumbent PM has first shot of forming a majority)but no written constitution.

 

That unwritten nature allows for flexibility and for our own independence vote to have happened.

 

So the vote there was illegal as Catalonia had no power to hold it and it broke the laws of how the state is formed and run.

[JamboX2]

Just heard the Catalonian MEP on the radio there saying that there is nothing in the constitution of Spain that says any referendum is not allowed. he says it was not illegal. His words. There are 2 courts, the law court that deals in the law and the constitutional court that deals in whether something is unconstitutional or not. That court cannot decide if something is illegal or not and cannot pass sentence. His words.

 

Were they holding some dodgy polling stations because they were afraid of getting their heads bashed in by militant police in face masks and riot gear perhaps?

 

Mob rule? really? I didnt witness any mob ruling anything. The only angry people were dressed in black with riot shields.

Generally if something is unconstitutional it's illegal as the authority for law comes from the constitution.

 

In America a law can only be a law because the constitution sets out the proper way for laws to be made and the parameters of what a law can be.

 

In Britain a law is valid in so far as it (1) is passed by a majority of parliament's 2 houses and (2) is signed off by Her Maj. Added to that no breaching the ECHR is seen as good.

 

Scotland - a law is law after a majority vote, approval from the Presiding Officer it is competent law (doesn't breach the Scotland Acts) and is signed by the Queen.

 

In effect law can only be law if it is constitutional.

 

Here laws to hold a vote were deemed unconstitutional and therefore are invalid.

 

Catalonia's parliamentary legal advisors refused to sign off the Act because of that. The Catalan MEP sounds as though he is trying to make some good out of bad.

[redm]

Yes. It broke aspects of the Spanish constitution, was started by an AcT of the Catalan Parliament which was not in its power to pass and went against the decision of the highest Constitutional Court's in Spain ruling.

 

 

Yes the Constitution. Spain has a written constitution. It states that it is the duty of the state to defend Spain's territorial integrity. At the same time it bans secessionist votes from taking place.

 

There are similar interpretations in other nations constitutions on this: Germany and France's highest courts have said theor constitutions do not allow for separatism from the nation.

 

The UK has an unwritten constitution. There are a variety of Acts which govern elections, franchises, courts and rights but no written body of laws governing how the state is formed or run. There is political rules and conventions (i.e. in a hung parliament the incumbent PM has first shot of forming a majority)but no written constitution.

 

That unwritten nature allows for flexibility and for our own independence vote to have happened.

 

So the vote there was illegal as Catalonia had no power to hold it and it broke the laws of how the state is formed and run.

Right. I understand. I wasn't clear on how it might fit in a legal sense - whether a referendum would be expressly prohibited or just not legally authorised.

[redm]

[JamboX2]

Right. I understand. I wasn't clear on how it might fit in a legal sense - whether a referendum would be expressly prohibited or just not legally authorised.

Both in that case.

 

I agree with you though. A better position for Rajoy would've been to let it happen. But whilst doing so attacking Puigdemont's government for (1) breaking the laws of the land (2) saying the vote is invalid because of that and (3) pointing out Puigdemont's government rigged Catalonia's parliamentary vote on holding it.

[Gorgiewave]

I promise never again to accuse you of having a certain je ne sais quoi.

 

Having a je ne sais quoi is very different from having I don't know what.

[Francis Albert]

It is probably just that it is not much reported, but I have missed the UN's condemnation of the breach of human rights in the Arab/Muslim world and the required respect for democratic freedoms.

[redm]

https://twitter.com/gissisim/status/914971404885528577

 

 

https://twitter.com/gissisim/status/914972511477075968

 

 

https://twitter.com/gissisim/status/914975112042041344

[jake]

It is probably just that it is not much reported, but I have missed the UN's condemnation of the breach of human rights in the Arab/Muslim world and the required respect for democratic freedoms.

 

 

Laughing my fekin head off .

 

Saudi Arabia are part of human rights farce no?

 

And womens rights no?

 

Qatar parr of a world federation in sport killing workers daily.

 

Etc etc etc .

 

 

What a laugh.

 

Except for women foreign workers (slaves(

 

Etc etc etc

 

 

Come on the obama fans haha.

 

Funny as fek

[michael_bolton]

It is probably just that it is not much reported, but I have missed the UN's condemnation of the breach of human rights in the Arab/Muslim world and the required respect for democratic freedoms.

 

 

Laughing my fekin head off .

 

Saudi Arabia are part of human rights farce no?

 

And womens rights no?

 

Qatar parr of a world federation in sport killing workers daily.

 

Etc etc etc .

 

 

What a laugh.

 

Except for women foreign workers (slaves(

 

Etc etc etc

 

 

Come on the obama fans haha.

 

Funny as fek

 

Doesn't take long to find the UN's opinion made clear in public on such matters.

 

Saudi Arabia including approach to refugees and women http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5135c0902.pdf

 

Middle East Qatar dispute https://www.facebook.com/unitednationshumanrights/posts/1813834048633394

 

Qatar workers' right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/24/un-gives-qatar-year-end-forced-labour-migrant-workers

 

UN critical of Bahrain on women's rights and freedom of expression http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=18471

 

So, in summing up, the two posters I have quoted above were absolutely right, except in the sense that every point they made (or alluded to) was wrong.

[Thaw]

Having a je ne sais quoi is very different from having I don't know what.

 

Touche. "The X-factor" may be both the best and the worst translation or definition.

[Thaw]

I hope they catch the duplicate voters although I don't see much evidence of that being widespread, the links you supply seem long on chat and short on evidence. I didn't see anything on the box with votes falling out has that been verified?

 

I note that you were exceptionally dismissive of accusations of impropriety such as ballot box tampering in the Scottish independence referendum, is there a reason you're so accepting on this occasion?

 

Even wingsoverscotland debunked that one. Why did nobody who filmed the tampering alert the attention of observers?

 

I worked at the Edinburgh count in Ingliston along with many other ordinary council staff. There were maybe 800 of us all told, so you're looking at 300 or more being independence supporters. Do you think all these staff employed on a one-off basis were effectively forced into participating in a conspiracy, by a local authority that can barely organise rubbish collections properly?

[Gorgiewave]

Touche. "The X-factor" may be both the best and the worst translation or definition.

In the same way that touch? is different from touched. Very different at times.

[Pans Jambo]

If the people of Catalonia want to go it alone then they should not have barriers in front of them.

These old tired arguments about central banks and reapplying for EU membership are boring. How many countries since the end of WW2 have done it? Unyet NOW in this moment in the worlds history everyone loses their shit when and says its too difficult to contemplate.

 

Geez peace. If they want it to work. They will make it work. Spain would eventually be seen as a parayah if they stood in its way at every step.

[Toggie88]

Yes. It broke aspects of the Spanish constitution, was started by an AcT of the Catalan Parliament which was not in its power to pass and went against the decision of the highest Constitutional Court's in Spain ruling.

 

 

Yes the Constitution. Spain has a written constitution. It states that it is the duty of the state to defend Spain's territorial integrity. At the same time it bans secessionist votes from taking place.

 

There are similar interpretations in other nations constitutions on this: Germany and France's highest courts have said theor constitutions do not allow for separatism from the nation.

 

The UK has an unwritten constitution. There are a variety of Acts which govern elections, franchises, courts and rights but no written body of laws governing how the state is formed or run. There is political rules and conventions (i.e. in a hung parliament the incumbent PM has first shot of forming a majority)but no written constitution.

 

That unwritten nature allows for flexibility and for our own independence vote to have happened.

 

So the vote there was illegal as Catalonia had no power to hold it and it broke the laws of how the state is formed and run.

 

I agree with everything you have said, however it's all fairly abstract when you think about it. 

 

The American Revolution and subsequent independence was illegal. 

 

The British Empire had no regard for the legal systems of the lands they invaded - they disregarded them and put in their own legal systems. 

 

The current PRC took control of mainland China illegally... 

 

My point is, the legality of independence movements as viewed by the previous state sometimes does matter and sometimes doesn't. The bigger factor in all of it comes down to recognition by other nations as an independent country. International law is a wonder in that it kind of exists and kind of doesn't. If other nations were to start dealing with new government of Catalonia and they had control over their territory, then they would be independent no matter what the Spanish had to say about it. 

 

It's unlikely to happen here as Spain has a lot of friends, probably less than they did before vote for. 

[Unknown user]

Even wingsoverscotland debunked that one. Why did nobody who filmed the tampering alert the attention of observers?

 

I worked at the Edinburgh count in Ingliston along with many other ordinary council staff. There were maybe 800 of us all told, so you're looking at 300 or more being independence supporters. Do you think all these staff employed on a one-off basis were effectively forced into participating in a conspiracy, by a local authority that can barely organise rubbish collections properly?

I think you're missing the point, I didn't say I believed there had been shenanigans in the referendum. My point was that when allegations were made, GW was immediately dismissive of even the possibility while this time he's on it like a tramp on chips.

[doctor jambo]

If the people of Catalonia want to go it alone then they should not have barriers in front of them.

These old tired arguments about central banks and reapplying for EU membership are boring. How many countries since the end of WW2 have done it? Unyet NOW in this moment in the worlds history everyone loses their shit when and says its too difficult to contemplate.

 

Geez peace. If they want it to work. They will make it work. Spain would eventually be seen as a parayah if they stood in its way at every step.

The difficulty that they will face is the EU.

It is geared to prevent peoples leaving- look at Brexit

The EU wont tolerate secession from a member state

Though I do believe that were Scotland to break away the EU is now far more likely to be accommodating to us than pre Brexit .

[Boris]

The difficulty that they will face is the EU.

It is geared to prevent peoples leaving- look at Brexit

The EU wont tolerate secession from a member state

Though I do believe that were Scotland to break away the EU is now far more likely to be accommodating to us than pre Brexit .

 

Why not?  The EU, or so we are told at least, is usurping the nation state.  One big country as a member or 4 seperate countries as members, what is the actual difference?  The EU hasn't lost anyone.

[doctor jambo]

Why not?  The EU, or so we are told at least, is usurping the nation state.  One big country as a member or 4 seperate countries as members, what is the actual difference?  The EU hasn't lost anyone.

Because of its current set up there is no way that Spain would accede to losing its most affluent area, then seeing open borders and Schengen which would prevent Spain from strangling the life out of catalonia.

What you may see then is the break away of autonomous city states- the wealthy ones, and possibly the rebirth of the Italian North / south divide

Then the Basque region

Then any other wealthy area that would want to turn itself into a wealthy tax haven

 

I am amazed at the socialists on here in support of basically a rich area jettisoning its poor neighbours.

catalonia would rapidly become a new Luxembourg. or Monaco.

[Francis Albert]

Doesn't take long to find the UN's opinion made clear in public on such matters.

 

Saudi Arabia including approach to refugees and women http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5135c0902.pdf

 

Middle East Qatar dispute https://www.facebook.com/unitednationshumanrights/posts/1813834048633394

 

Qatar workers' right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/24/un-gives-qatar-year-end-forced-labour-migrant-workers

 

UN critical of Bahrain on women's rights and freedom of expression http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=18471

 

So, in summing up, the two posters I have quoted above were absolutely right, except in the sense that every point they made (or alluded to) was wrong.

Thanks. Unlike the comment on the events in Spain I could find no reference to "democratic rights", presumably because they do not really exist in the states concerned. However it is probably right that  democracies should be held to higher standards than theocratic dictatorships.

[doctor jambo]

I support their right to self determination, that doesn't mean I support the Separatists reasons for wanting Independence.

 

I certainly support any individuals right not to have their head caved in by the Police when they are not even breaking the Law.

 

I support self determination, BUT it has to stop somewhere- which unit is small enough that you can say "enough"

A region, a city, a town, a house?

Curious to know, and how far back until you can say that people are being silly in their desire for an "old border" ?

a decade. a century or a millennium?

[Adam Murray]

Nigel Farage gives both barrels to Mr Juncker and the EU over Catalonia and Brexit

 

[Thunderstruck]

Why not? The EU, or so we are told at least, is usurping the nation state. One big country as a member or 4 seperate countries as members, what is the actual difference? The EU hasn't lost anyone.

Or, to put it another way, what is the point of an independence movement that has the aim of gaining sovereignty only for that new state to then have to cede that same sovereignty (and maybe a bit more) to become/remain part of the European superstate? A European state with its President, Finance Minister, Central Bank and Armed Forces.

 

It seems to be just an expensive and futile waste of effort.

[Unknown user]

I support self determination, BUT it has to stop somewhere- which unit is small enough that you can say "enough"

A region, a city, a town, a house?

Curious to know, and how far back until you can say that people are being silly in their desire for an "old border" ?

a decade. a century or a millennium?

That's another debate though. Catalonia certainly isn't too small to self determine and it has it's own culture and language.

[Unknown user]

Or, to put it another way, what is the point of an independence movement that has the aim of gaining sovereignty only for that new state to then have to cede that same sovereignty (and maybe a bit more) to become/remain part of the European superstate? A European state with its President, Finance Minister, Central Bank and Armed Forces.

 

It seems to be just an expensive and futile waste of effort.

Not really, Catalonia would go from being a region in an EU state to being an EU state, that's a big difference. The EU doesn't run day to day affairs, they'd be free to do that for their own good instead of being under Spanish rule.

[redjambo]

I support self determination, BUT it has to stop somewhere- which unit is small enough that you can say "enough"

A region, a city, a town, a house?

Curious to know, and how far back until you can say that people are being silly in their desire for an "old border" ?

a decade. a century or a millennium?

 

The last point is a very interesting one for me. Having travelled quite a bit through the Balkan countries, one thing I noticed is that virtually every country has a larger historic version of itself that it wants to reclaim, in some cases quite actively. "Greater Hungary", "Greater Bulgaria", "Greater Serbia", the list goes on. Of course the point in history that the irredentists want to return to is one at which their country was at its apogee territorial-wise.

[Thunderstruck]

Not really, Catalonia would go from being a region in an EU state to being an EU state, that's a big difference. The EU doesn't run day to day affairs, they'd be free to do that for their own good instead of being under Spanish rule.

You are missing the point - the EU is inexorably moving toward greater control of the day-to-day affairs of member states. That might not be a bad thing as long as the Catalans are happy to dance to a German instead of a Spanish tune. It does seem perverse to battle for power just to merrily hand it off to another remote layer of government.

 

That aside, assuming it does become independent (and that also assumes that the views on 60% of the Catalans are discounted) what is the likelihood of Catalonia being admitted to the EU?

 

Farage?s comments on this are quite apt - It would seem that Juncker is not going to upset Madrid over this.

[Ulysses]

What has this got to do with the definition of illegal? 

 

 

A lot.  What exactly do you think police forces are for?

[Ulysses]

So you have never done anything in your life that is deemed illegal, no matter how trivial. If you have, then you'd have no problem being battered by cops with their batons and have rubber bullets fired into you. I bet if we were playing through in Glasgow and the police deemed a song we were singing was illegal and waded in to us all with batons, you'd have something to say about it.

 

It's utterly disgusting what they're doing whether it is or isn't. No excuse for their behaviour whatsoever.

 

 

What happens if you do something that is so trivial it isn't actually illegal?

 

Just wondering.

[Unknown user]

You are missing the point - the EU is inexorably moving toward greater control of the day-to-day affairs of member states. That might not be a bad thing as long as the Catalans are happy to dance to a German instead of a Spanish tune. It does seem perverse to battle for power just to merrily hand it off to another remote layer of government.

 

That aside, assuming it does become independent (and that also assumes that the views on 60% of the Catalans are discounted) what is the likelihood of Catalonia being admitted to the EU?

 

Farage?s comments on this are quite apt - It would seem that Juncker is not going to upset Madrid over this.

I wouldn't agree with that at all, what are you basing it on?

 

That aside, they're already in the EU as part of Spain, so it's not like the EU influence would be added from nowhere as a replacement. In fact they'd really just be removing a layer of government between their own assembly and the EU.

[Ulysses]

According to what I've read in the press, it's not illegal to vote, but it is illegal to hold the vote. Hence closing schools, seizing ballot papers, removing people who wanted to vote. Organisers allowing that was illegal. Preventing the vote taking place would prevent the law actually being broken (by the organisers, not those voting).

 

 

What law? 

 

These are simple questions, so leave aside your own biases and prejudices and answer them.  What specific piece of law makes it a criminal act for a person to mark a box on a ballot?  How many people have been arrested for voting?  What criminal offence have they been charged with or are they being investigated for?  When are their court appearances?  What penalties can be applied?

[Ulysses]

....not actually a criminal violation...  ....but a civil one.......

 

 

Good grief, man.  Have you gone completely sane? 

[Thunderstruck]

I wouldn't agree with that at all, what are you basing it on?

 

That aside, they're already in the EU as part of Spain, so it's not like the EU influence would be added from nowhere as a replacement. In fact they'd really just be removing a layer of government between their own assembly and the EU.

Juncker?s ?State of the Union? speech of 13 September this year is worthy of a close read. A ?United States of Europe? is the aim.

[Ulysses]

Thank you! One thing that's been bugging my thruppenies are the amount of people tweeting/posting on social media in English using the word Catalunya.  Like it's some hipster badge or something. 

 

 

It's like people referring to Sevilla, I s'pose. 

[redjambo]

It's like people referring to Sevilla, I s'pose. 

 

I don't have a real problem with that. Generally I think it's a wee bit silly that the English language has used slight variants on the real names of countries, regions and cities etc., particularly where the other language uses Roman characters and the place name isn't difficult to pronounce. It shows a modicum of respect for the other country to use the same name they do, a bit more internationalism.

 

As an example, I have been pleased to see Lyons and Marseilles move back to the proper Lyon and Marseille over time. Peking to Beijing is another example.Likewise the move towards using Thessaloniki rather than the anglicized Salonica and Thessalonica.

 

Anyway, for a more complete list of English exonyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms

[Tazio]

It's like people referring to Sevilla, I s'pose.

 

You have to be careful translating place names.

 

You wouldn't want people finding out Dublin is really called Blackpool would ye!

[Ulysses]

I don't have a real problem with that. Generally I think it's a wee bit silly that the English language has used slight variants on the real names of countries, regions and cities etc., particularly where the other language uses Roman characters and the place name isn't difficult to pronounce. It shows a modicum of respect for the other country to use the same name they do, a bit more internationalism.

 

As an example, I have been pleased to see Lyons and Marseilles move back to the proper Lyon and Marseille over time. Peking to Beijing is another example.Likewise the move towards using Thessaloniki rather than the anglicized Salonica and Thessalonica.

 

Anyway, for a more complete list of English exonyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms

 

???????????.   Just saying. 

 

I think you'd have a similar view to mine - I don't have a problem with it either.  I think Gorgiewave is saying it's unacceptable, which must presumably mean it's something he's never done.