SE16 3LN Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Ulysses said: Bobby McDonagh was the Irish ambassador to the UK from 2009 to 2013. In this article, he explains how despite years of relationship-building between Dublin and London, the British political establishment misread Ireland in seven different ways. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/10/priti-patel-brexit-ignorance-ireland-vote-uk For those who feel a bit tl;dr, the seven misreads relate to Ireland's motivation, intelligence, influence, allegiance, resolve, politics and friendship. You can understand the general public making those mistakes, but for the British political establishment and diplomatic system to do so is - to say the least - unexpected. I'm not sure what point McDonagh is trying to make. There are some boorish, ignorant politicians in the UK? No shit. FFS his rosy view that the Irish love the brits is absolute bollocks. Meanwhile in Scotland... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, scott herbertson said: Can't honestly remember any policies in the manifestos in the last two general elections from either of the main British parties - except this pile of dog poo from Milliband which deserves some sort of claptrap meaningless motherhood and apple pie award or as it was reworded to reflect the actual promises made Motherhood and apple pie would by comparison have been well defined and meaningful policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: Nope. With a fixed term democracy, NOONE should be able to enact legislation that cannot be reversed by the opposition. That means that when the public changes its mind, it can. When a party falls from grace, any policy we now disagree with we can reverse. In 5 or 10 Fair enough and thanks for the clarification. So people can vote for things designed to last more than one Parliamentary term (otherwise short termism would be ingrained) Future parliaments can reverse decisions but there are practical limits to that. In practice. Legislation that lasts tends to have a degree of support beyond the party implementing it (abolition of slavery, child labour laws, NHS, nuclear deterrent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 56 minutes ago, Victorian said: Leadsom criticising the speaker and questioning his impartiality. This after the government tried to conceal the legal advice, defied parliament's will to have it published and were found in contempt. Then of course wasting 3 full days of parliamentary debating time over a vote they shat out of. Yeah that's right... turn the spotlight on the speaker. That'll make people forget the arse you've made of it all. That is a classic sign of a failing body in this case the government. Bercow will be there longer than Leadsom. (I think he is due to retire next year) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: I'm not sure what point McDonagh is trying to make. There are some boorish, ignorant politicians in the UK? No shit. FFS his rosy view that the Irish love the brits is absolute bollocks. Meanwhile in Scotland... If you can't read that as reasonable points then there isn't much hope for your ability to assess anything fairly. Actually these are mostly self evident obvious points about the situation re Ireland and relationship to UK. Edited December 11, 2018 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I think going forward any referendum that involves changing the status quo needs a two thirds majority. Then you could categorically say it was the will of the people and not a temporary anomaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKongUno Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: I think going forward any referendum that involves changing the status quo needs a two thirds majority. Then you could categorically say it was the will of the people and not a temporary anomaly. Seems like a reasonable solution . Dont think Sturgeon would be too keen on it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Seems that as a deal has been agreed with the EU, then the PM doesn't have to make a statement to the House in January, as that statement was only to give notice of the progress of the deal negotiations. This means that May can put off the vote on her deal as late as the 28th of March (the day before we leave the EU) and force Parliament to either accept her deal or crash out with no deal at all and leaves no time at all for any re-negotiations or 2nd referendums or anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toggie88 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cade said: Seems that as a deal has been agreed with the EU, then the PM doesn't have to make a statement to the House in January, as that statement was only to give notice of the progress of the deal negotiations. This means that May can put off the vote on her deal as late as the 28th of March (the day before we leave the EU) and force Parliament to either accept her deal or crash out with no deal at all and leaves no time at all for any re-negotiations or 2nd referendums or anything else. May's spokesperson just said she would hold the vote by the 21st of January. Don't know if she'll last that wrong tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: That is a classic sign of a failing body in this case the government. Bercow will be there longer than Leadsom. (I think he is due to retire next year) It's brutal stuff. Spouting mindless innuendo about the speaker, based purely on his perfectly valid private and personal ideology over Brexit. Deflect divert smear. Blame the speaker. An ignorant public will lap it up and shriek about Brexit being stolen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) The EU have made pretty clear noises that the deal CAN be renegotiated if begun again from a standing start of no/different red lines. May tried to impose restrictive red lines and achieved a deal based on them. Labour would not set the same red lines and could quite easily renegotiate a different set of agreements. Staying in the customs union and working out a single market access deal. The EU would work with them on that basis. Edited December 11, 2018 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Cade said: Seems that as a deal has been agreed with the EU, then the PM doesn't have to make a statement to the House in January, as that statement was only to give notice of the progress of the deal negotiations. This means that May can put off the vote on her deal as late as the 28th of March (the day before we leave the EU) and force Parliament to either accept her deal or crash out with no deal at all and leaves no time at all for any re-negotiations or 2nd referendums or anything else. Saw that yesterday I think what will happen (if May remains) is it will technically be 'No Deal but EU and UK will mostly implement the agreed Deal under the guise of 'special measures' to protect trade, the rights of citizens etc. Edited December 11, 2018 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Victorian said: The EU have made pretty clear noises that the deal CAN be renegotiated if begun again from a standing start of no/different red lines. May tried to impose restrictive red lines and achieved a deal based on them. Labour would not set the same red lines and could quite easily renegotiate a different set of agreements. Staying in the customs union and working out a single market access deal. The EU would work with them on that basis. Yes If Government can be brought down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 47 minutes ago, Cade said: Seems that as a deal has been agreed with the EU, then the PM doesn't have to make a statement to the House in January, as that statement was only to give notice of the progress of the deal negotiations. This means that May can put off the vote on her deal as late as the 28th of March (the day before we leave the EU) and force Parliament to either accept her deal or crash out with no deal at all and leaves no time at all for any re-negotiations or 2nd referendums or anything else. If she tries that nonesense she will be out on her arse long before. Vote of no confidence would be quickly served to her. I doubt she lasts the rest of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 #10 quick to state that Parliament will get the meaningful vote before Jan 21st. Was this always the case or is it another quick u-turn as soon as everybody realised that shenanigans was afoot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Can we turn this thread into a poll. See where we are at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, jumpship said: Can we turn this thread into a poll. See where we are at... All the polls have left mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 13 minutes ago, Cade said: #10 quick to state that Parliament will get the meaningful vote before Jan 21st. Was this always the case or is it another quick u-turn as soon as everybody realised that shenanigans was afoot? 21 January had previously been said to be the final deadline for the vote in Parliament to give enough enough time for the law confirming it to be prepared and passed by the leave date of 29 March. At one point yesterday the government said that deadline could be 28 March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Parliament in lock down after some nutter tried to run at parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jumpship said: Can we turn this thread into a poll. See where we are at... Somewhere like this Edited December 11, 2018 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said: Parliament in lock down after some nutter tried to run at parliament. Seems to be dealt with. "Not terror related". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Barack said: Daft twat. What did he think was going to happen. They'd happily negotiate his exit from an uncomfortable position without any recriminations after a pointless act of self destruction? What's good for the goose......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Seems to be dealt with. "Not terror related". Have they clarified further whether this mentally ill individual was trying to get into or out of parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Have they clarified further whether this mentally ill individual was trying to get into or out of parliament. Quoted to have been shouting "we're coming for you politicians". No other information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 John Major calls for the government to cancel Article 50 to allow the country more time to decide what kind of Brexit, if any, it wants. Hard to disagree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: All the polls have left mate Just the pesky remainians left to go. Edited December 11, 2018 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 He probably had a better plan than May to be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said: If you can't read that as reasonable points then there isn't much hope for your ability to assess anything fairly. Actually these are mostly self evident obvious points about the situation re Ireland and relationship to UK. So you agree with me but try and insult my intelligence anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Still a lot of confusion especially among Tory MPs about status of leave deal and future negotiations. Some demanding what isn't available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Norway and the other 3 don’t want the U K to join their group.All 4 have to agree for any trade deal.Man from W T O on radio.W T O is like football league 1-4.UK in league 1 if it leaves E U will go into league 4. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 37 minutes ago, Cade said: NOt really funny though, is it. Once you get past the fun of watching May implode, you see the harm caused by no opposition to save us from her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Loving all the scenario theorising. Labour seem to be waiting for May's deal to pass through Parliament THEN call a No-confidence after that, as the deal includes a backstop which the DUP see as a red line and would back a no-con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Cade said: Loving all the scenario theorising. Labour seem to be waiting for May's deal to pass through Parliament THEN call a No-confidence after that, as the deal includes a backstop which the DUP see as a red line and would back a no-con. Labour don't know what they want either. I think they are scared of power at the moment, because it would lay bare their own divisions again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 NOBODY wants to be in power at the moment. They all know damn fine that Brexit is going to be a huge disaster and want to as far away from the blame as possible. What they all want is to be able to shake their heads and say "we told you so" and THEN figure out a way to gain power after a re-negotiated deal/2nd referendum in the next year or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, Cade said: NOBODY wants to be in power at the moment. They all know damn fine that Brexit is going to be a huge disaster and want to as far away from the blame as possible. What they all want is to be able to shake their heads and say "we told you so" and THEN figure out a way to gain power after a re-negotiated deal/2nd referendum in the next year or so. Let the SNP run Wm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, SE16 3LN said: I'm not sure what point McDonagh is trying to make. There are some boorish, ignorant politicians in the UK? No shit. FFS his rosy view that the Irish love the brits is absolute bollocks. Meanwhile in Scotland... I have to say the "trailer" led me to expect more than a list of the UK's seven deadly sins in relation to understanding Ireland's position with little substantiation or justification beyond shallow assertion. But then this is in the comic that it is now and not what was once a great newspaper. If McDonagh's analysis and argument is typical of the Irish Diplomatic corps (which I doubt) then it would not be surprising if the UK did indeed misunderstand Ireland's position. Edited December 11, 2018 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Let the SNP run Wm. There have been worse ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Imagine the panic and chaos if SNP started fielding candidates over the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Duncan Smith on the news. His genius plan? If we don't get what we want then the £39bn and EU access to UK markets is off the table! Bless him. He probably believes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Duncan Smith on the news. His genius plan? If we don't get what we want then the £39bn and EU access to UK markets is off the table! Bless him. He probably believes it. Saw him. He's off his chump. No thought or comment regarding the 'no deal' economic trauma. Why should he? Other people will bear the brunt. Let them eat cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Brexit cons the public like the unions destroyed the Labour Party.Union leaders taking the brown envelope at the expense of the members.Cannot wait for car plant in Sunderland to shut.Hope the - - - - - starve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) vote of no confidence coming it seems that is Tory MPs and possible leadership contest Edited December 11, 2018 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Maybe this is how it all went wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 If it happens and she loses the vote, a leadership contest could take 6-8 weeks. It could represent another nail in the coffin for a transition period but it could also make more urgent a commons confidence motion against the government. Everybody going all in for the end game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Victorian said: If it happens and she loses the vote, a leadership contest could take 6-8 weeks. It could represent another nail in the coffin for a transition period but it could also make more urgent a commons confidence motion against the government. Everybody going all in for the end game. Currently DUP were still saying they are supporting Government though reject deal. That might change if May goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Currently DUP were still saying they are supporting Government though reject deal. That might change if May goes. Constitutional constipation. A situation of a government becoming a squatter whilst unable to command a working majority for urgent business will be challenged in some other way. The Palace could come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Constipation, squatter and urgent business were all used quite innocently there. Well it is a shitshow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Thought this was decent of the Tories. To think of themselves again I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Id like to bet thats exactly how Scotland is viewed. IE know their place. We do though. Sit down. Shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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