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13 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

The UK.  By sea on death trap boats.  The thing we've been talking about.  

 

 

I'm aware what we've been talking about; it's the terminology around "in transit" that threw me off.  I don't know if you've ever worked in public service provision, drafting regulations, or law enforcement (I've worked in all of those).  If you have, you'll be aware that agencies tend to frame their operations around the "official status" of people who come within their remit.  As far as France is concerned, the official status of refugees, or asylum seekers, is that they are on French soil with no entitlement to be there but with an entitlement to apply to stay.  Therefore, they can't be seen - not officially anyway - by the French authorities as being "in transit" or "awaiting passage" anywhere.  What this means is that if the French are mistreating people, they aren't mistreating people who are "awaiting passage". 

 

Also, if those people are "in transit", that somewhat contradicts this point of yours:

 

21 hours ago, Victorian said:

If that's how France treats desperate and vulnerable people then no wonder they want out.

 

After all, if they're already "in transit" and "awaiting passage", then they want out regardless of how the French are treating them, and indeed before they even get to find out how they will be treated.

 

And of course, there may be more truth in that than meets the eye.  During the 2015 migration crisis, one of the key objectives of many Syrian migrants, especially the more educated ones, was to as much as possible avoid any encounter with the immigration authorities in any country they passed through until they got to their intended destination, which was frequently either Germany or Sweden - and then present themselves to police and immigration as soon as they reached their planned destination.  Likewise, current migrants and asylum seekers - and traffickers - know that the UK is now cut off from the pan-European mutual programme, and that therefore it is harder for them to be sent out of the UK than from any EU member state.

 

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3 hours ago, Ked said:

I can talk some shite about football and tv too.

Be warned.

 

 

Ah yeah, but talking shite about football and TV (especially football) is half the fun. :toasting:

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Victorian
5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I'm aware what we've been talking about; it's the terminology around "in transit" that threw me off.  I don't know if you've ever worked in public service provision, drafting regulations, or law enforcement (I've worked in all of those).  If you have, you'll be aware that agencies tend to frame their operations around the "official status" of people who come within their remit.  As far as France is concerned, the official status of refugees, or asylum seekers, is that they are on French soil with no entitlement to be there but with an entitlement to apply to stay.  Therefore, they can't be seen - not officially anyway - by the French authorities as being "in transit" or "awaiting passage" anywhere.  What this means is that if the French are mistreating people, they aren't mistreating people who are "awaiting passage". 

 

Also, if those people are "in transit", that somewhat contradicts this point of yours:

 

 

After all, if they're already "in transit" and "awaiting passage", then they want out regardless of how the French are treating them, and indeed before they even get to find out how they will be treated.

 

And of course, there may be more truth in that than meets the eye.  During the 2015 migration crisis, one of the key objectives of many Syrian migrants, especially the more educated ones, was to as much as possible avoid any encounter with the immigration authorities in any country they passed through until they got to their intended destination, which was frequently either Germany or Sweden - and then present themselves to police and immigration as soon as they reached their planned destination.  Likewise, current migrants and asylum seekers - and traffickers - know that the UK is now cut off from the pan-European mutual programme, and that therefore it is harder for them to be sent out of the UK than from any EU member state.

 

 

Great stuff.  So harrassing them and taking away their food,  water,  bedding and shelter can be ignored because of some bullshit technicality that they can't officially be seen. 

 

What a load of inhumane nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Cade said:

"why dinnae wi send thum back likes"

 

That has been explained.

We left the Dublin Agreement which made that easy.

We have yet to replace the Dublin Agreement with anything.

So they're here.

 

Dublin only covered failed applications anyways, so that's 60% of 30,000 which is 18,000 people a year.

 

I could only find statistics for one year for Dublin applications (admittedly I didn't search too hard).  In 2018, the UK got about 1,900 requests to take people back as their first place of landing, and made about 5,500 requests of other countries.  However, I don't know what percentage of those requests were successful, and I don't have numbers for other years.  It does suggest a couple of things:

 

* The Dublin system possibly was of a net benefit to the UK

* But in the overall immigration context it didn't make a huge difference

* Relatively speaking, the UK was a small player in the asylum business compared to France and Germany

 

All in all, at the time the Brexit deal was being done there wasn't a compelling case for the UK government sticking with the Dublin Regulation.  There probably wasn't a massive case for getting rid of it either, but it's no surprise that it wasn't a priority either for the British or the EU.  Things may have changed now, but at the time the decision was a logical one.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-is-the-dublin-iii-regulation-will-it-be-affected-by-brexit/

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Great stuff.  So harrassing them and taking away their food,  water,  bedding and shelter can be ignored because of some bullshit technicality that they can't officially be seen. 

 

What a load of inhumane nonsense.

 

Why are you so shouty?  You just make crap up and go out of your way to get offended by it, and then moan when other people won't clap you on the back for it.

 

I didn't say anything you've said in your post above.  I'm telling you how the system looks to the people operating it, and why your fantasies don't make sense.  You said the French were doing that to people who are in transit.  I'm telling you that they're doing it - but that those people are not in transit and not supposed to be in transit.

 

Christ, you really can tell which people on here spend too much time on Facebook.  Less emotional outbursts, more thinking, thanks.

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Victorian
Just now, Ulysses said:

 

Why are you so shouty?  You just make crap up and go out of your way to get offended by it, and then moan when other people won't clap you on the back for it.

 

I didn't say anything you've said in your post above.  I'm telling you how the system looks to the people operating it, and why your fantasies don't make sense.  You said the French were doing that to people who are in transit.  I'm telling you that they're doing it - but that those people are not in transit and not supposed to be in transit.

 

Christ, you really can tell which people on here spend too much time on Facebook.  Less emotional outbursts, more thinking, thanks.

 

Your rant is a tad more hysterical than my brief "shout".

 

My point was about the mistreatment.  There's no need to dance on the head of a pin for a fortnight if you recognise that.  We all know your extensive knowledge about law and treaties.  

 

A good salesman stops pitching when the sale is made.  ;)

 

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2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Your rant is a tad more hysterical than my brief "shout".

 

My point was about the mistreatment.  There's no need to dance on the head of a pin for a fortnight if you recognise that.  We all know your extensive knowledge about law and treaties.  

 

A good salesman stops pitching when the sale is made.  ;)

 

 

I just find immaturity and silliness a bit....

 

...immature and silly, I s'pose.

 

Sorry about that.  ;)

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2 hours ago, Cade said:

 

So, make legal claims easier.

 

The UK has been hell-bent on making legal avenues of asylum more difficult, which has resulted in people putting their lives at risk in inflatable boats across the channel.

 

This is what has led to the crisis. A failure of the UK government to allow safe, legal avenues of asylum.

 

The graphs I posted earlier showed that asylum has been far higher in previous years, but that was done safely. They'd come by plane or ferry or eurotunnel then stay here until their claim was processed then the 60% of unsuccessful applicants were handed back elsewhere, also safely under the terms of the Dublin Agreement.

 

 

 

 

Victorian isn't proposing any solutions to the crisis.  He's proposing a solution to keep the problem away from the UK.  In this respect he's on exactly the same page as the British Prime Minister.

 

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of Western governments' behaviour - and this really belongs in a thread about the migration issue - the following are all realities of the situation.

 

* Macron is not going to allow himself to be seen as "soft on immigration" in an election year - and as an election tactic it will be helpful

* Given the appalling measures in the Nationality and Borders Bill, the UK has no claim to a higher moral ground than anyone else - quite the opposite

* So it makes political sense for the French and British governments to swipe at each other rather than tackling the issue - for the time being at least

 

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On the upside, massive bonanza for the HR lawyer legal aid gravy train. 37k asylum cases last year, how that number are processed within the current system of endless appeals and challenges is surely an impossibility with even more coming for 2021, so they will stay in the bed and board hotels from now till never all on the Brit tax payer. I actually think this issue could create a surge of populism. Former home secretary David Blunkett is predicting Farage will be PM, I would go further than that; this situation unchecked could also take down the monarchy and house of lords along with the whole obsolete legal apparatus that feeds off the asylum industry. President Nige a comin. 

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Victorian
7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I just find immaturity and silliness a bit....

 

...immature and silly, I s'pose.

 

Sorry about that.  ;)

 

Immaturity,  aye?  I refer you to your own rant then.  

 

I find transparent hubris a bit... 

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Victorian
6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Victorian isn't proposing any solutions to the crisis.  He's proposing a solution to keep the problem away from the UK.  In this respect he's on exactly the same page as the British Prime Minister.

 

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of Western governments' behaviour - and this really belongs in a thread about the migration issue - the following are all realities of the situation.

 

* Macron is not going to allow himself to be seen as "soft on immigration" in an election year - and as an election tactic it will be helpful

* Given the appalling measures in the Nationality and Borders Bill, the UK has no claim to a higher moral ground than anyone else - quite the opposite

* So it makes political sense for the French and British governments to swipe at each other rather than tackling the issue - for the time being at least

 

 

Vicrorian IS proposing a solution actually.  The first part would be to close down and make the channel crossings redundant.  All from a viewpoint of removing the dangerous crossings from the equation in order to preserve life as the principle aim.  But secondary to that,  there would need to be negotiations and agreements for the UK to accept a fair share of the migrants.  

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Shouldn't the discussion on illegal immigrants have it's own thread?

 

I could see this ending the career of Patel and maybe even Johnson if they're not seen to be getting on top of this soon. 

 

The solution and maybe even a discussion on a solution is going to be  pretty unpalatable for many.  It's going to have to include a plan for reducing the pull factor for illegals risking life to reach Britain. That's going to mean looking at the asylum process and closing down black markets.

 

 

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The Mighty Thor
6 hours ago, JackLadd said:

On the upside, massive bonanza for the HR lawyer legal aid gravy train. 37k asylum cases last year, how that number are processed within the current system of endless appeals and challenges is surely an impossibility with even more coming for 2021, so they will stay in the bed and board hotels from now till never all on the Brit tax payer. I actually think this issue could create a surge of populism. Former home secretary David Blunkett is predicting Farage will be PM, I would go further than that; this situation unchecked could also take down the monarchy and house of lords along with the whole obsolete legal apparatus that feeds off the asylum industry. President Nige a comin. 

And today on National Front news.....

 

Fortunately the majority of people in Scotland don't share your extreme views. 

I'm sure there's sites out on t'inernet where your views would be at home, but then again you probably already know that. 

 

 

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Des Lynam
7 hours ago, JackLadd said:

On the upside, massive bonanza for the HR lawyer legal aid gravy train. 37k asylum cases last year, how that number are processed within the current system of endless appeals and challenges is surely an impossibility with even more coming for 2021, so they will stay in the bed and board hotels from now till never all on the Brit tax payer. I actually think this issue could create a surge of populism. Former home secretary David Blunkett is predicting Farage will be PM, I would go further than that; this situation unchecked could also take down the monarchy and house of lords along with the whole obsolete legal apparatus that feeds off the asylum industry. President Nige a comin. 


 

 

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Alex Kintner
8 hours ago, JackLadd said:

On the upside, massive bonanza for the HR lawyer legal aid gravy train. 37k asylum cases last year, how that number are processed within the current system of endless appeals and challenges is surely an impossibility with even more coming for 2021, so they will stay in the bed and board hotels from now till never all on the Brit tax payer. I actually think this issue could create a surge of populism. Former home secretary David Blunkett is predicting Farage will be PM, I would go further than that; this situation unchecked could also take down the monarchy and house of lords along with the whole obsolete legal apparatus that feeds off the asylum industry. President Nige a comin. 


Four words that send a cold shiver down the spine

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jack D and coke
8 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


Four words that send a cold shiver down the spine

It’s actually heart warming that a prick like Farage look likely to have started the chain of events that will see the end of the union. A reunified ireland and independent Scotland. 
If the thought of that arsehole being your PM doesn’t send every person running for the hills then nothing ever will. Surely England would never vote for him….would they??
The fact he’s had so much airtime over the years is pretty embarrassing to Britain. 

A weapons grade throbber but in British politics that seems to get you pretty far and I mean that all over these islands. 
 

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The Mighty Thor
1 hour ago, Alex Kintner said:


Four words that send a cold shiver down the spine

 

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s actually heart warming that a prick like Farage look likely to have started the chain of events that will see the end of the union. A reunified ireland and independent Scotland. 
If the thought of that arsehole being your PM doesn’t send every person running for the hills then nothing ever will. Surely England would never vote for him….would they??
The fact he’s had so much airtime over the years is pretty embarrassing to Britain. 

A weapons grade throbber but in British politics that seems to get you pretty far and I mean that all over these islands. 
 

Remember Farage is as successful in elections as he is at flying a banner behind a plane. 

 

 

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WorldChampions1902
10 hours ago, JackLadd said:

On the upside, massive bonanza for the HR lawyer legal aid gravy train. 37k asylum cases last year, how that number are processed within the current system of endless appeals and challenges is surely an impossibility with even more coming for 2021, so they will stay in the bed and board hotels from now till never all on the Brit tax payer. I actually think this issue could create a surge of populism. Former home secretary David Blunkett is predicting Farage will be PM, I would go further than that; this situation unchecked could also take down the monarchy and house of lords along with the whole obsolete legal apparatus that feeds off the asylum industry. President Nige a comin. 

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree (sadly) with the dangers of an increase in populism due to this issue. But yet again, much of that populism will be based on lies, half-truths and scaremongering by those that strive to make political capital out of it.

 

One can only hope that many Leavers will have started to see how they were conned and be on their guard against second-helpings. I am not optimistic.

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The Mighty Thor

I see Spaffer released the letter he sent to Macron regarding the forthcoming meeting on joint efforts to tackle the asylum seeker crisis in the channel on Twitter.

 

Macron is not impressed saying that we don't conduct diplomacy via Twitter. 

 

Game playing. 

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3 hours ago, pablo said:

Shouldn't the discussion on illegal immigrants have it's own thread?

 

I could see this ending the career of Patel and maybe even Johnson if they're not seen to be getting on top of this soon. 

 

The solution and maybe even a discussion on a solution is going to be  pretty unpalatable for many.  It's going to have to include a plan for reducing the pull factor for illegals risking life to reach Britain. That's going to mean looking at the asylum process and closing down black markets.

 

 

One of my less empathetic friends and i were talking about this issue yesterday. He said that the french police shoot shoot the rubber dinghies before they take off.  Its a solution I suppose. :))  least he was slightly humane wanting the dinghies burst before taking off. 

20 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Remember Farage is as successful in elections as he is at flying a banner behind a plane. 

 

 

Incredibly he had one policy and achieved it so it some respects he is an extremely accomplished and successful as a politician . ( i may add i cant stand him ) 

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1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see Spaffer released the letter he sent to Macron regarding the forthcoming meeting on joint efforts to tackle the asylum seeker crisis in the channel on Twitter.

 

Macron is not impressed saying that we don't conduct diplomacy via Twitter. 

 

Game playing. 

 

Boris is morphing more into Donald as each day passes

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Alex Kintner
1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see Spaffer released the letter he sent to Macron regarding the forthcoming meeting on joint efforts to tackle the asylum seeker crisis in the channel on Twitter.

 

Macron is not impressed saying that we don't conduct diplomacy via Twitter. 

 

Game playing. 


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59428311


“A French government spokesman accused Mr Johnson of saying different things in his conversation with Mr Macron and in the letter, adding: "We are sick of double-speak."

 

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Japan Jambo
2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see Spaffer released the letter he sent to Macron regarding the forthcoming meeting on joint efforts to tackle the asylum seeker crisis in the channel on Twitter.

 

Macron is not impressed saying that we don't conduct diplomacy via Twitter. 

 

Game playing. 

 

Yup they are trying to out-twat each other. Pretty even competition in fairness.

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The Mighty Thor
3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Yup they are trying to out-twat each other. Pretty even competition in fairness.

Spaffer releasing it to give the illusion of actually doing something whilst simultaneously knowing that it would create an issue so he can then point at the French for not being prepared to do anything.

 

Meanwhile Macron has an election to fight so he'll not be for budging an inch.

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Francis Albert
4 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s actually heart warming that a prick like Farage look likely to have started the chain of events that will see the end of the union. A reunified ireland and independent Scotland. 
If the thought of that arsehole being your PM doesn’t send every person running for the hills then nothing ever will. Surely England would never vote for him….would they??
The fact he’s had so much airtime over the years is pretty embarrassing to Britain. 

A weapons grade throbber but in British politics that seems to get you pretty far and I mean that all over these islands. 
 

England for the most part never voted for him. Ironically his only success was in the European parliament elections.

Anyway to the extent he achieved or helped to achieve departure from one union he also made Scotland's departure from its union much more difficult especially if an independent Scotland seeks to join the EU.

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So it begins. Hotels in Scotland to be filled up with handout seekers. 50 placed in one hotel in Falkirk overnight. Not named amazingly enough. Inshallah the accommodation and room service meets needs. 

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

So it begins. Hotels in Scotland to be filled up with handout seekers. 50 placed in one hotel in Falkirk overnight. Not named amazingly enough. Inshallah the accommodation and room service meets needs. 

Which hotel?

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4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So it begins. Hotels in Scotland to be filled up with handout seekers. 50 placed in one hotel in Falkirk overnight. Not named amazingly enough. Inshallah the accommodation and room service meets needs. 

 

Seriously, which hotel? 

I don't see this mentioned on any of the Falkirk groups.

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Just now, Smithee said:

 

Seriously, which hotel? 

I don't see this mentioned on any of the Falkirk groups.

 

I said it wasn't named. This is just the start though. They are going to be a very visible unwelcome presence soon enough up here.  

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

I said it wasn't named. This is just the start though. They are going to be a very visible unwelcome presence soon enough up here.  

Mental though, there aren't many hotels with that capacity in Falkirk, amazing that not one local member of staff has seen it. What's your source?

Edited by Smithee
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2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Mental though, there aren't many hotels with that capacity in Falkirk, amazing that not one local member of staff has seen it. What's your source?bbc

 

 

BBC. I think it could be the park hotel,  my guess. 

Edited by JackLadd
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3 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

I said it wasn't named. This is just the start though. They are going to be a very visible unwelcome presence soon enough up here.  

 

Or just point me to where you went to verify the claim, cheers 👍

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Alex Kintner
6 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

I said it wasn't named. This is just the start though. They are going to be a very visible unwelcome presence soon enough up here.  


Why would asylum seekers be an unwelcome presence?

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Alex Kintner
26 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

😂


Glad you find the issue funny. People so terrified that they’re having to up and leave their homes and countries to seek refuge elsewhere. In some cases feeling so devoid of options that they load themselves and their small children into rubber dinghies and try to cross a busy and dangerous waterway. Hilarious stuff 🙄

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WorldChampions1902
55 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So it begins. Hotels in Scotland to be filled up with handout seekers. 50 placed in one hotel in Falkirk overnight. Not named amazingly enough. Inshallah the accommodation and room service meets needs. 

I don’t believe a word of it. We have “Taken Back Control” remember? All these issues went away on the first of January cos we “Got Brexit Dung”. It’s what “we” voted for.

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The Mighty Thor
1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

So it begins. Hotels in Scotland to be filled up with handout seekers. 50 placed in one hotel in Falkirk overnight. Not named amazingly enough. Inshallah the accommodation and room service meets needs. 

Do you mean asylum seekers as Scotland (and the rest of the UK) has an abundance of indigenous handout seekers.

 

The room service will be irrelevant as they'll all be phoning out for Dominos on the mobile phones we give them.

 

Amirite?

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Alex Kintner
23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

The room service will be irrelevant as they'll all be phoning out for Dominos on the mobile phones we give them.


Amirite?


Surely their allocated personal assistant can do that for them?

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2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

I said it wasn't named. This is just the start though. They are going to be a very visible unwelcome presence soon enough up here.  


If we’re going to bomb other countries and cause instability then we’re going to have to deal with the problems this causes. 

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The Real Maroonblood
2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


If we’re going to bomb other countries and cause instability then we’re going to have to deal with the problems this causes. 

That’s a very pertinent post.

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5 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


If we’re going to bomb other countries and cause instability then we’re going to have to deal with the problems this causes. 

 

We also need to understand that being historically empirical means that English is the most widely spoken second language in the world. Who's stopping in France with all their oo la la zut alors pish when a language they understand is so close by?

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
8 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

That’s a very pertinent post.

And one thick racists are unable to comprehend.

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WorldChampions1902
22 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


If we’re going to bomb other countries and cause instability then we’re going to have to deal with the problems this causes. 

:oohmatron:

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WorldChampions1902
11 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

And one thick racists are unable to comprehend.

Some of them do understand, which merely fuels their “Rule Britannia” addiction.

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Jambo_jim2001

The folk you are speaking off come from Afghanistan,if the west never made a balls up getting out so fast  ,most would still over in their homeland.mostly due to the fact that they were employed in liaison with us they had no choice but to leave.

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11 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Immaturity,  aye?  I refer you to your own rant then.  

 

I find transparent hubris a bit... 

 

I did say I was sorry.  Not sure what else I can do. ;)

 

You should spend less time moaning at me and Macron, and more time thinking about the actual fash posting on this thread.  If, of course, you care about the people in the boats as much as you say you do.

 

10 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Vicrorian IS proposing a solution actually.  The first part would be to close down and make the channel crossings redundant.  All from a viewpoint of removing the dangerous crossings from the equation in order to preserve life as the principle aim.  But secondary to that,  there would need to be negotiations and agreements for the UK to accept a fair share of the migrants.  

 

Yet you've already said it won't work, because of the bit in bold.  Proposing something that you know won't work isn't proposing a solution.  Who d'ya think you are, David Frost? :whistling:

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3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I did say I was sorry.  Not sure what else I can do. ;)

 

You should spend less time moaning at me and Macron, and more time thinking about the actual fash posting on this thread.  If, of course, you care about the people in the boats as much as you say you do.

 

 

Yet you've already said it won't work, because of the bit in bold.  Proposing something that you know won't work isn't proposing a solution.  Who d'ya think you are, David Frost? :whistling:

 

True.  But that might be a solution.  Right now it seems far fetched to believe that this UK gvt will suddenly agree to a fairer distribution of asylum seekers.  It's not for me to say it wont work,  it's just that,  to me,  it seems unlikely.

 

 

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A mostly left wing buddy of mine says let them in but they get no benefits or free hotels which you could argue is the current situation in the U.S but they also deport quickly without the HR lawyer appeals and do nothings we have in soft touch UK. In my book they should not be entertained on our coin because they paid a trafficker to drop them on our shore from France as it encourages millions more to try same. What is needed (aside from a pm with testicles) is a massive overhaul of the whole asylum industry, stripping it right down, plus robust deportation. This is long term, short term use emergency powers and employ the military and appropriate vessels to remove them back to the coast they departed from same day. Macron is going to squeal but let him. He sent them so he can have them back. 

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