Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Ulysses]

19 minutes ago, Ked said:

You are wrong.

My problem is this threads response.

I kind of hoped you would have taken me up on the original posts about Belorussian political usage of refugees.

You got to admit you are defensive of the union.

There is a big picture here and where I 100% agree with you is the ineptitude of the current government in London.

But you cannot separate the examples I gave of nations treatment of migrants that are union members as not being the responsibilty of the union .

 

My points poorly made no doubt that somehow the UK alone and brexit voters particular are somehow glad to see migrants drown(I posted before the tragedy) is just ...shit.

You posted that I thought I was trying to be clever than I actually am.

Spot on with that.

Just be good to debate without being called gammon asked if I'm a boris fan etc.

I'm one of those boring folk who enjoy a debate and dont mind being informed.

And I'm also thick enough to get drawn into insults which I dont like doing.

What I will say is fundamentally I'm opposed to big government which I concede puts me at odds with the union.

But that also makes me independentally minded in the Scottish sense.

 

 

 

I've already explained my position on the Belarus/Russia weaponisation of migrants, while you don't really seem to have one.  The migrants are in Belarus.  Why isn't Lukashenko looking after them instead of beating them to the border?  The migrants were assisted to Belarus through Russian territory by Putin - in some cases hundreds if not thousands of kilometres through Russian territory.  Why didn't he take care of them?  Or, when he had the ideal opportunity, turn them back across the border to where they came from?  And why do you have to blame the EU for the treatment of displaced people by Belarus and Russia? 

 

If migrants are capsizing off the English coast, it is up to the British government to decide whether to let them in or let then drown - and be responsible for the consequences.  Likewise, it is a matter for Poland to decide whether to let the people at its border in or let them freeze - and be responsible for the consequences.  If it was the Irish coast and the Irish government, I wouldn't want migrants to be drowning, but I'm not a Polish or British voter.

 

Do you see the sentence highlighted in bold?  Here's your answer.  Yes, I can separate them.  It is you who can't separate them.  Why?  Because I'm taking into account how the EU's legal framework operates, and you aren't.  The EU has no control over Poland's immigration policies and laws.  None.  Despite the fantasies and made up horseshite of the Brexiteers, the UK's immigration rules were and are a matter for the UK, and Poland's immigration rules are a matter for Poland.

 

I am not being defensive of the EU's position on immigration.  I'm not attacking it either.  I'm just trying to tell you how things are.  It doesn't matter if I agree with how they are, or disagree with how they are - but they are how they are, and there is no point in pretending that they're not.

 

There are plenty of ways for the EU to shit on the floor.  But this is not one of them. 

 

I'll meet you one day and buy you a pint - but for **** sake can we talk about football or what's on telly?

[Victorian]

7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

In transit where?  Awaiting passage where?

 

 

 

The UK.  By sea on death trap boats.  The thing we've been talking about.  

[The Mighty Thor]

10 hours ago, JackLadd said:

The tragedy is UK plc shelling out multi billions of tax payers money to welfare up these mostly Muslim fighting age males who have ZERO right to be here and Johnson showing no interest in stopping it. I said last week tens of thousands will end up in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow on our coin and it's already happening at Dungavel. Another few years of this and we'll see no go zones and a security situation which makes the current SEVERE look like the good old days. I blame Blair, weak weak laws, a welfare system open to abuse, HR lawyer bonanzas. All adds up to UK plc being a paradise for them and they all know it. 

The walking Daily Mail/Daily Express/Britain First has spoken.

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

7 hours ago, Ked said:

I think the current government have made things worse.

Brexit was a vote imo which was delivered by and mostly from the same disgruntled voters which has seen the same in Scotland.

Brexit was unnecessary and despite my pointing out of EU shortcomings was anything but a rejection of being part of Europe .

Theres no doubt it was delivered on the back of many concerns but will likely not address those.

Brexit politics is an aside from the migration that we but in fact Europes mainland will face on a larger scale.

The solution imo lies in making life fairer in the countries and continents from which these people come from.

We haven't a fekin clue about how hopeless it is for them.

I wouldn't cross the forth in a boat to Fife.

But they cross a continent and a wild channel.

 

You can think what you want but until the ways of the world radically change economically and environmentally this is just the start.

Resetting brexit doesnt mean diddly squat.

I agree with a lot of that Ked. The only point I’d make is that you’re underplaying how central immigration was to the Brexit vote and the Vote Leave campaign. Brexit was hailed as the solution to the “mass influx” and we’d be taking back control but it’s made things worse and the choices of this govt have compounded it further as you say.

[Boy Daniel]

https://apple.news/Ao1_9HdrJRXefivwRbhcZ8g

 

Amongst some interesting truths about the failings of Brexit in the above article this poll gives me hope that somewhere in the near future we may in fact vote to rejoin the EU. 

 

“Support for rejoining the EU has flipped from a majority against, to a majority in favour since June, according to pollsters Comres. Backing for EU membership has risen to 53 per cent from 49 per cent.”

[Japan Jambo]

Not sure if any of you have clocked this article about why we shouldn't invoke article 16 before; appreciate that it comes from someone that has a very sharp axe to grind but many here will rejoice in the BoJo pile on...

 

https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/risk-aggression-brexit-and-article

 

[Cade]

Right, I think it's about time we met some of the lies and myths and rants on this thread with some hard facts.

 

"The UK is being swamped, this is a generational CRISIS!"

Well it looks to me that numbers are around the same as they were in the early 90s.

 

 

"The EU isn't taking anyone in and just bussing them all to the French coast!"
 

Well, it looks to me that Germany, France, Spain and Greece are taking in way more than the UK is.

The UK is around the same levels as Belgium, Sweden and The Netherlands

 

"They're all young guys coming over to steal your job and your wife and to start a Jihad or something!"

 

 

Well, it looks to me like a fairly normal distribution of age groups there.

64% of the total are male.

 

Turns out that only 40% of applications are accepted anyhow, so cut all the figures in the previous graphs by 60%.

[Smithee]

8 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

Not sure if any of you have clocked this article about why we shouldn't invoke article 16 before; appreciate that it comes from someone that has a very sharp axe to grind but many here will rejoice in the BoJo pile on...

 

https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/risk-aggression-brexit-and-article

 

 

This phrase is getting aired a lot recently, it seems to be used to turn an arsehole into a victim.

 

Johnson's an arsehole, that's the only reason people are calling him an arsehole.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

This phrase is getting aired a lot recently, it seems to be used to turn an arsehole into a victim.

 

Johnson's an arsehole, that's the only reason people are calling him an arsehole.

 

honestly I don't give a monkeys what you call him - did you read the article/what do you think?

[Mikey1874]

Most immigrants in France stay in France.

 

But it does seem Brexit has created different choices for people. 

[jack D and coke]

Gaslighting you yoons they are 😜😂

[Smithee]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

honestly I don't give a monkeys what you call him - did you read the article/what do you think?

 

There's still a certain connotation in the phrase pile on, I've noticed it used more and more recently 🤷‍♂️

[The Mighty Thor]

33 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

There's still a certain connotation in the phrase pile on, I've noticed it used more and more recently 🤷‍♂️

It's getting a good workout lately.

 

Generally after someone who has been spouting shite and has been called out for spouting shite. 

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

There's still a certain connotation in the phrase pile on, I've noticed it used more and more recently 🤷‍♂️

 

29 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's getting a good workout lately.

 

Generally after someone who has been spouting shite and has been called out for spouting shite. 

 

 

 

So I presume it's banned if I want to be down with the woke kids? 🙂

[The Mighty Thor]

11 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

 

So I presume it's banned if I want to be down with the woke kids? 🙂

I'm not particularly thin skinned and, as you've already seen, prone to making a tit of myself. 

 

If folks want to pile on then at least they're leaving some other poor sod alone. 

[Dazo]

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm not particularly thin skinned and, as you've already seen, prone to making a tit of myself. 

 

If folks want to pile on then at least they're leaving some other poor sod alone. 

You are generally on the same side of the fence as the pile on crew Thor so while you don’t really jump in I think you’re safe. 👍

[JackLadd]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Gaslighting you yoons they are 😜😂

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

 

Is there a problem with a UK national being foreign born?

[JackLadd]

1 minute ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Is there a problem with a UK national being foreign born?

 

There is a problem with his graph misleading people. 

[Japan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

There is a problem with his graph misleading people. 

 

But it is a fact that Germany took far more refugees than anyone else in Europe, Merkel paid a political price for it and I know a number of Germans that are less than thrilled about it. Again, what has 10m foreign born Brits got to do with that?

[Cade]

You do realise that not all the 10million foreign-born residents in the UK are refugees, right?

They're your Doctor. They teach your kids and care for your elderly relatives. They farm your food. They serve in the armed forces.

They are productive members of UK society.

Our Glorious Prime Minister is himself foreign-born, being American by birth.

 

5.5million Brits live abroad.

 

30,000 asylum claims are made in the UK each year, and only about half of those claims are granted.

So we're only looking at around 15,000 refugee resettlements a year (government's own target is 20,000)

 

613,936 children were born in the UK in 2020.

 

Get some context ya bam.

 

The UK is only "rammed full" in the fevered imaginations of Daily Mail, Express and Sun readers.

 

 

Edited November 25 by Cade

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

But it is a fact that Germany took far more refugees than anyone else in Europe, Merkel paid a political price for it and I know a number of Germans that are less than thrilled about it. Again, what has 10m foreign born Brits got to do with that?

I'll take 'They're no brits likesy' for $800

[LMc]

Simple Jack.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

One of the most idiotic posts in the history of JKB. Wow and is that saying something!

[The Fonz]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

😂 foreign born folk aren’t to blame for millennials not being able to get on the property ladder. You’d be better directing your anger at; buy to let, boomers and consecutive gov's for not building more housing stock. 
 

As for the doctor registration thing. Just nonsense. It’s an ageing population and a chronically underfunded NHS.
 

Foreign born working age immigrants are a massive net positive to the UK economy as well as culturally. 
 

Bloody foreigners though eh. 

[JackLadd]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

One of the most idiotic posts in the history of JKB. Wow and is that saying something!

 

 

Is your issue with the office of national statistics, lack of affordable Edinburgh housing or availability of gp's? Couldn't quite tell from your wee outburst 

[Francis Albert]

9 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The walking Daily Mail/Daily Express/Britain First has spoken.

 

 

I read the Mail and the Guardian. I think they compete in bias and half truths. Pretty evenly. The Mail today led on a photo of the beach in Wimeraux a pleasant seaside resort on the coast road from Calais to Boulogne which I used to enjoy regularly. It is not a remote location. The Mail's photo shows ( allegedly)  a police vehicle stationed next to an inflated dinghy being loaded with refugees with a couple of men without life jackets directing the others to their places. Within hours of yesterday's tragedy the French police arrested four traffickers. A bit fishy isn't it? 

Edited November 25 by Francis Albert

[JackLadd]

2 minutes ago, The Fonz said:

😂 foreign born folk aren’t to blame for millennials not being able to get on the property ladder. You’d be better directing your anger at; buy to let, boomers and consecutive gov's for not building more housing stock. 
 

As for the doctor registration thing. Just nonsense. It’s an ageing population and a chronically underfunded NHS.
 

Foreign born working age immigrants are a massive net positive to the UK economy as well as culturally. 
 

Bloody foreigners though eh. 

 

I never said anything about bloody foreigners Mac. I said we have 10m foreign born in UK per official stats which unless you are a total moron puts pressure on housing and public services. 

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

Is your issue with the office of national statistics, lack of affordable Edinburgh housing or availability of gp's? Couldn't quite tell from your wee outburst 

None of the above. It was about you.

[JackLadd]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

None of the above. It was about you

 

 

So you don't dispute anything I said. Thanks caller. 

[The Mighty Thor]

19 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

One of the most idiotic posts in the history of JKB. Wow and is that saying something!

To be fair it's only his most idiotic post on this page. 

[The Fonz]

Just now, JackLadd said:

 

I never said anything about bloody foreigners Mac. I said we have 10m foreign born in UK per official stats which unless you are a total moron puts pressure on housing and public services. 

Unaffordable housing and pressure on public services are genuine problems, but putting the blame on immigrants is utterly idiotic. The thought process of a simpleton who probably needs to have a think about the kind of prejudices they hold. 
 

Of the 10m that you’re getting upset there will be a significant % that work in the NHS or fill other roles that are vital to the UK economy. The vast, vast majority will put in a lot more than they take out and we’d be a hell of a lot worse off without them. 
 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

56 minutes ago, Cade said:

You do realise that not all the 10million foreign-born residents in the UK are refugees, right?

They're your Doctor. They teach your kids and care for your elderly relatives. They farm your food. They serve in the armed forces.

They are productive members of UK society.

Our Glorious Prime Minister is himself foreign-born, being American by birth.

 

5.5million Brits live abroad.

 

30,000 asylum claims are made in the UK each year, and only about half of those claims are granted.

So we're only looking at around 15,000 refugee resettlements a year (government's own target is 20,000)

 

613,936 children were born in the UK in 2020.

 

Get some context ya bam.

 

The UK is only "rammed full" in the fevered imaginations of Daily Mail, Express and Sun readers.

 

 

Spot on.

[Japan Jambo]

17 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I read the Mail and the Guardian. I think they compete in bias and half truths. Pretty evenly. The Mail today led on a photo of the beach in Wimeraux a pleasant seaside resort on the coast road from Calais to Boulogne which I used to enjoy regularly. It is not a remote location. The Mail's photo shows ( allegedly)  a police vehicle stationed next to an inflated dinghy being loaded with refugees with a couple of men without life jackets directing the others to their places. Within hours of yesterday's tragedy the French police arrested four traffickers. A bit fishy isn't it? 

 

You aren't inferring they knew exactly who was behind it all along are you? 🤣 

[Francis Albert]

28 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

So you don't dispute anything I said. Thanks caller. 

If you think that is what I meant you are even stupider than I thought. Except that can't be possible.

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

You aren't inferring they knew exactly who was behind it all along are you? 🤣 

The Cote d'Opal  is short with few obvious points for launching a dinghy. Wimeraux is one of the more obvious. If the French wanted to stop people risking death at the hands of people traffickers they could have done so at a fraction of the cost they deploy whenever there is a regular break out of protest and rioting within France. Even in our visit to Bordeaux all those years ago there was an impressive display of riot police who no-one would risk getting the wrong side of.

[Ked]

16 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've already explained my position on the Belarus/Russia weaponisation of migrants, while you don't really seem to have one.  The migrants are in Belarus.  Why isn't Lukashenko looking after them instead of beating them to the border?  The migrants were assisted to Belarus through Russian territory by Putin - in some cases hundreds if not thousands of kilometres through Russian territory.  Why didn't he take care of them?  Or, when he had the ideal opportunity, turn them back across the border to where they came from?  And why do you have to blame the EU for the treatment of displaced people by Belarus and Russia? 

 

If migrants are capsizing off the English coast, it is up to the British government to decide whether to let them in or let then drown - and be responsible for the consequences.  Likewise, it is a matter for Poland to decide whether to let the people at its border in or let them freeze - and be responsible for the consequences.  If it was the Irish coast and the Irish government, I wouldn't want migrants to be drowning, but I'm not a Polish or British voter.

 

Do you see the sentence highlighted in bold?  Here's your answer.  Yes, I can separate them.  It is you who can't separate them.  Why?  Because I'm taking into account how the EU's legal framework operates, and you aren't.  The EU has no control over Poland's immigration policies and laws.  None.  Despite the fantasies and made up horseshite of the Brexiteers, the UK's immigration rules were and are a matter for the UK, and Poland's immigration rules are a matter for Poland.

 

I am not being defensive of the EU's position on immigration.  I'm not attacking it either.  I'm just trying to tell you how things are.  It doesn't matter if I agree with how they are, or disagree with how they are - but they are how they are, and there is no point in pretending that they're not.

 

There are plenty of ways for the EU to shit on the floor.  But this is not one of them. 

 

I'll meet you one day and buy you a pint - but for **** sake can we talk about football or what's on telly?

I can talk some shite about football and tv too.

Be warned.

 

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

One of those immigrants is kindly helping U.K. residents buy their first flat. Maybe get your kids to give him a call?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/romanian-man-gives-brits-money-for-homes-302186/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=ukineu&fbclid=IwAR1qZXUaGGKe_ReEYgqLRtwyWo9Qv1F6qxixvP-dIERWr5ajLZjdWVZZ-aM

 

[Victorian]

Macron has called for stronger EUROPEAN cooperation.  Flying a bit in the face of what was being suggested last night.  

 

??

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

You aren't inferring they knew exactly who was behind it all along are you? 🤣 

France is a much more authoritarian country than the UK. The idea of Muslims  being denied the right to wear the hajib is unthinkable in  the UK. The French approach to demonstrators is much more

 " robust" than that of the UK". The UK embraces multi-culturism far more than  France. 

If I were a Muslim I know where I would prefer to live. But hope I was not so desperate to risk my and my childrens' life to do so.

 

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

My earlier not altogether serious suggestion that Euro fanatics should offer to swap with refugees and move to the EU did not meet with approval. So why don't we put refugees arriving in the UK onto boats to Ireland, France or other EU states. Safe seaworthy boats of course. I mean it would surely be unacceptable for them not to be given  entry and safely escorted to shore.

[WorldChampions1902]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

My earlier not altogether serious suggestion that Euro fanatics should offer to swap with refugees and move to the EU did not meet with approval. So why don't we put refugees arriving in the UK onto boats to Ireland, France or other EU states. Safe seaworthy boats of course. I mean it would surely be unacceptable for them not to be given  entry and safely escorted to shore.

And the legalities of your proposal are what?  

[Cade]

"why dinnae wi send thum back likes"

 

That has been explained.

We left the Dublin Agreement which made that easy.

We have yet to replace the Dublin Agreement with anything.

So they're here.

 

Dublin only covered failed applications anyways, so that's 60% of 30,000 which is 18,000 people a year.

[Victorian]

It's not much of a light bulb moment because it's already been part of the thinking of people for some time.  To return or divert,  safely,  all migrants to France or some other place for asylum claim processing.  This eventually makes the UK bound channel crossing obsolete.  People realise they can't enter the UK (unless undetected and not making an asylum claim upon entry),  thus removing the demand from the business models of the criminal gangs.

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

And the legalities of your proposal are what?  

OK we would let people smugglers do it and ignore the traffic. But of course my point is we wouldn't.

[WorldChampions1902]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

OK we would let people smugglers do it and ignore the traffic. But of course my point is we wouldn't.

Why not answer my question? 

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

"why dinnae wi send thum back likes"

 

That has been explained.

We left the Dublin Agreement which made that easy.

We have yet to replace the Dublin Agreement with anything.

So they're here.

 

Dublin only covered failed applications anyways, so that's 60% of 30,000 which is 18,000 people a year.

The Dublin Agreement made it easy. How many were returned while we  were party to the Dublin Agreement? How many have to date been successfully been returned to their point of entry to the EU under the Dublin Agreement?

[Alex Kintner]

4 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

There's a 10m foreign born population here per the office of national statistics so that graph is misleading. We are rammed full which is partly why our kids can't afford a property and most doctor's practices take no new registrations 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cade]

55 minutes ago, Victorian said:

It's not much of a light bulb moment because it's already been part of the thinking of people for some time.  To return or divert,  safely,  all migrants to France or some other place for asylum claim processing.  This eventually makes the UK bound channel crossing obsolete.  People realise they can't enter the UK (unless undetected and not making an asylum claim upon entry),  thus removing the demand from the business models of the criminal gangs.

 

So, make legal claims easier.

 

The UK has been hell-bent on making legal avenues of asylum more difficult, which has resulted in people putting their lives at risk in inflatable boats across the channel.

 

This is what has led to the crisis. A failure of the UK government to allow safe, legal avenues of asylum.

 

The graphs I posted earlier showed that asylum has been far higher in previous years, but that was done safely. They'd come by plane or ferry or eurotunnel then stay here until their claim was processed then the 60% of unsuccessful applicants were handed back elsewhere, also safely under the terms of the Dublin Agreement.

 

 

 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

So, make legal claims easier.

 

The UK has been hell-bent on making legal avenues of asylum more difficult, which has resulted in people putting their lives at risk in inflatable boats across the channel.

 

This is what has led to the crisis. A failure of the UK government to allow safe, legal avenues of asylum.

 

The graphs I posted earlier showed that asylum has been far higher in previous years, but that was done safely. They'd come by plane or ferry or eurotunnel then stay here until their claim was processed then the 60% of unsuccessful applicants were handed back elsewhere, also safely under the terms of the Dublin Agreement.

 

 

 

 

France and others will quite righly negotiate to convince the UK to take a fair share of the total number of migrants into Europe / EU.  The UK gvt will steadfastly refuse.  All those ideological promises sometimes come back to bite you on the arse.