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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

If viewed from the perspective of doing everything reasonable to prevent severe danger to life,  the EU and it's member states do have a responsibility beyond washing their hands of all duty of care.  They can hide behind all the laws they want but they cannot avoid that as a basic responsibility.  They have a solemn duty to engage in coming up with a solution.

 

The EU doesn't.  Individual member states do.  That's the law.  That's the law the Brexiteers pretended didn't exist, but it does.  That's the law that means individual member states are responsible for control of their own borders.

 

The EU can't act ultra vires its own powers.  And it is legally and constitutionally unsound to say that the rule of law should be switched on and off as and when the circumstances suit us.

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4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

When are you going to admit that Boris and his cronies conned you? It's OK to admit that you have been taken for a ride by a con man and did the wrong thing by voting for, and then promoting this shit show. We wont judge you.

 

Why are you "doubling down" on this farce? 

Missing the point .

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18 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

 
 Sorry but no, that’s shifting the responsibility and the blame which is an easy cop out. If what you claim is correct then what’s to stop the UK just turning the boats around and send the back to the EU (France).

 

The Spanish are already doing the same thing where illegal immigrants are trying to swim to the Spanish enclave(s) that borders Morocco. They are put straight back into Morocco. 
 

As I said in my first post on this sub topic there is no solution that will keep everyone happy and I was right. 


I really just wish they could put the politics aside and find a solution on this. There’s groups of people dying on an almost daily basis. 

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3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The EU doesn't.  Individual member states do.  That's the law.  That's the law the Brexiteers pretended didn't exist, but it does.  That's the law that means individual member states are responsible for control of their own borders.

 

The EU can't act ultra vires its own powers.  And it is legally and constitutionally unsound to say that the rule of law should be switched on and off as and when the circumstances suit us.

 

All parties CAN act in best faith to find a solution.  To prevent people dying.

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Just now, Alex Kintner said:


I really just wish they could put the politics aside and find a solution on this. There’s groups of people dying on an almost daily basis. 

 

So do I.  But there are two key factors missing.

 

First, the EU doesn't have the legal authority or mandate over migration that it has over trade.  So unless the UK and France can agree something bilaterally - or unless the EU can talk individual member states round - it is difficult to see the basis for even getting round the table.

 

Second, in order to solve the problem the EU or France would have to sit down and negotiate a solution with the UK, who have already shown themselves to be an unreliable and untrustworthy negotiating partner.  That doesn't stop the sides trying to find a solution, but it makes trust very difficult to find.

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3 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


I really just wish they could put the politics aside and find a solution on this. There’s groups of people dying on an almost daily basis. 


I totally agree. It’s not just the Channel they are drowning in either. 

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1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

All parties CAN act in best faith to find a solution.  To prevent people dying.

 

A party to a negotiation is bound by the limits of its own power and authority.  You know this; the rest is wishful thinking.

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1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

I fixed your post for you.  You're welcome.

Let's be clear.

Every single country in western Europe including ours will face an ever increasing wave of migrants.

On this thread it seems that the majority wish to only blame brexit and that if it had not happened then this wouldn't be a problem.

Often cited is "taking back control".

And often levelled at any points I have tried to make is that somehow its gammon etc.

Many of your union take harsher measures and along with the UK simply pursue a policy of pushback.

 

Now there is definitely the point of previous arrangements being scuppered by brexit but there is equal blame or finger pointing .

 

I shall leave it though as it does feel views are entrenched and my posting wont generate any type of debate that wont result in a slagging match

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2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

So do I.  But there are two key factors missing.

 

First, the EU doesn't have the legal authority or mandate over migration that it has over trade.  So unless the UK and France can agree something bilaterally - or unless the EU can talk individual member states round - it is difficult to see the basis for even getting round the table.

 

Second, in order to solve the problem the EU or France would have to sit down and negotiate a solution with the UK, who have already shown themselves to be an unreliable and untrustworthy negotiating partner.  That doesn't stop the sides trying to find a solution, but it makes trust very difficult to find.

 

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:


I totally agree. It’s not just the Channel they are drowning in either. 


The value of a human life measured by their legal status. Hate this planet sometimes. 😑

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Just now, Ked said:

Let's be clear.

Every single country in western Europe including ours will face an ever increasing wave of migrants.

On this thread it seems that the majority wish to only blame brexit and that if it had not happened then this wouldn't be a problem.

Often cited is "taking back control".

And often levelled at any points I have tried to make is that somehow its gammon etc.

Many of your union take harsher measures and along with the UK simply pursue a policy of pushback.

 

Now there is definitely the point of previous arrangements being scuppered by brexit but there is equal blame or finger pointing .

 

I shall leave it though as it does feel views are entrenched and my posting wont generate any type of debate that wont result in a slagging match


Do you think Brexit has made things worse or better for the UK in terms of dealing with migrants?

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Just now, Alex Kintner said:

 


The value of a human life measured by their legal status. Hate this planet sometimes. 😑

 

Define the problem we're supposed to be solving.  The UK was part of a system that (a) protected the lives of the refugees (or migrants) and (b) protected the rights of territories.  It wasn't ideal, but it worked for the most part except for the bumpy bit when Germany screwed up in 2015.  The UK walked out of that system.  What are we supposed to do now?  Turn ourselves inside out to solve a problem created not by us, not by the migrants, but by the UK?  Let's face it, if this problem was only happening on the EU's frontiers and not in the English Channel no-one in the UK would care and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

A party to a negotiation is bound by the limits of its own power and authority.  You know this; the rest is wishful thinking.

 

Sorry this is just not true in this case.  There is nothing preventing the UK and France from adopting a plan that would ensure that the route into the UK over the sea is made practically redundant and unviable.  All migrants returned safely to France in every instance.  Eventually migrants get to know that there is no hope in paying criminals for passage to the UK,  thus disrupting the criminals' scheme.  People want to get to the UK.  Criminals exploit them to make it possible.  When it becomes apparent that nobody gets into the UK,  the demand disappears and so does the criminals' supply.  Crossings are made redundant.  

 

We know that there is no legal obligation.  But there is nothing to prevent a treaty between two sovereign states to protect life.

 

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4 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

The value of a human life measured by their legal status. Hate this planet sometimes.


Although this thought only applies to the EU the fact that they have free movement within the Shengen Area actually makes life better for the citizens. The UK decided to withdraw from that and the EU to our detriment.

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7 minutes ago, Ked said:

Let's be clear.

Every single country in western Europe including ours will face an ever increasing wave of migrants.

On this thread it seems that the majority wish to only blame brexit and that if it had not happened then this wouldn't be a problem.

Often cited is "taking back control".

And often levelled at any points I have tried to make is that somehow its gammon etc.

Many of your union take harsher measures and along with the UK simply pursue a policy of pushback.

 

Now there is definitely the point of previous arrangements being scuppered by brexit but there is equal blame or finger pointing .

 

I shall leave it though as it does feel views are entrenched and my posting wont generate any type of debate that wont result in a slagging match

 

I'm well aware that migration will grow, if for no other reason than climate change.  But you have no interest in dealing with that or fixing it.  All you want to do is use that as a way to whine about the EU.  It's all you do, partly because you hate it and partly because you don't understand it.  Come back with something constructive and surprise me, but otherwise all you're doing is picking issues and using them to flog your favourite dead horse.

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5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Sorry this is just not true in this case.  There is nothing preventing the UK and France from adopting a plan that would ensure that the route into the UK over the sea is made practically redundant and unviable.  All migrants returned safely to France in every instance.  Eventually migrants get to know that there is no hope in paying criminals for passage to the UK,  thus disrupting the criminals' scheme.  People want to get to the UK.  Criminals exploit them to make it possible.  When it becomes apparent that nobody gets into the UK,  the demand disappears and so does the criminals' supply.  Crossings are made redundant.  

 

We know that there is no legal obligation.  But there is nothing to prevent a treaty between two sovereign states to protect life.

 

 

I never said anything about legal obligations.  I said something about legal capacity.  I have no legal obligation to sell you my car, but I do have the legal capacity.  I most definitely don't have the legal capacity to sell you someone else's car.  In this case, the car the UK might wish to buy doesn't belong to the EU, it belongs to France.

 

But also, the UK took a decision to opt out of Dublin, and hasn't asked to get back in to it or to anything like it.  If the UK doesn't ask to buy the car, is France still obliged to engage in trying to sell it?

 

Bearing that in mind, are there any bits of this post of yours quoted below would you like to rethink?

 

 

29 minutes ago, Victorian said:

If viewed from the perspective of doing everything reasonable to prevent severe danger to life,  the EU and it's member states do have a responsibility beyond washing their hands of all duty of care.  They can hide behind all the laws they want but they cannot avoid that as a basic responsibility.  They have a solemn duty to engage in coming up with a solution.

 

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Here’s is a question I just thought of as I considered the plight of the Illegal immigrants/asylum seekers. 
The French are obviously watching these people push of in to the channel headed for the UK in blatantly unsuitable and a safe boats for the journey. Why don’t they intervene and put them on a ferry for safe passage which would the oblige the UK to accept them? 
 

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Just now, Ulysses said:

 

 

I never said anything about legal obligations.  I said something about legal capacity.  I have no legal obligation to sell you my car, but I do have the legal capacity.  I most definitely don't have the legal capacity to sell you someone else's car.  In this case, the car the UK might wish to buy doesn't belong to the EU, it belongs to France.

 

But also, the UK took a decision to opt out of Dublin, and hasn't asked to get back in to it or to anything like it.  If the UK doesn't ask to buy the car, is France still obliged to engage in trying to sell it?

 

Bearing that in mind, are there any bits of this post of yours quoted below would you like to rethink?

 

 

 

 

So there is the ability,  if the will exists,  for the UK and France to agree to a solution.  A way to disrupt the route and to protect life.  That's what I suggested.  The EU can and should engage in the efforts to find the solution.  No legal obligations.  Nobody hiding behind legal obligations.  

 

Morally,  this must be made to happen.  

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13 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:


Although this thought only applies to the EU the fact that they have free movement within the Shengen Area actually makes life better for the citizens. The UK decided to withdraw from that and the EU to our detriment.

 

The UK wasn't in Schengen when it was in the EU.  Ireland still isn't.

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1 minute ago, Boy Daniel said:

Here’s is a question I just thought of as I considered the plight of the Illegal immigrants/asylum seekers. 
The French are obviously watching these people push of in to the channel headed for the UK in blatantly unsuitable and a safe boats for the journey. Why don’t they intervene and put them on a ferry for safe passage which would the oblige the UK to accept them? 
 


God knows. Whatever their motivation is it must be more important than human lives 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Just now, Victorian said:

 

So there is the ability,  if the will exists,  for the UK and France to agree to a solution.  A way to disrupt the route and to protect life.  That's what I suggested.  The EU can and should engage in the efforts to find the solution.  No legal obligations.  Nobody hiding behind legal obligations.  

 

Morally,  this must be made to happen.  

 

No, the EU has no legal capacity in this.  And you are the only person making up stuff about legal obligations.  The EU cannot do things that it does not have the legal authority to do.  If it tries, the member states will tell it to **** off.

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Just now, Ulysses said:

 

No, the EU has no legal capacity in this.  And you are the only person making up stuff about legal obligations.  The EU cannot do things that it does not have the legal authority to do.  If it tries, the member states will tell it to **** off.

 

Not if France,  it's member state,  asks for or agrees to EU input.  All parties can quite merrily work together for a common cause.

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Just now, Ulysses said:

 

The UK wasn't in Schengen when it was in the EU.  Ireland still isn't.


Ah I thought we were. I must admit it never really interested me as I could freely travel to other EU countries particularly Spain and stay there with out any real problem. 👍

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The Mighty Thor

Watch the political capital to be made from this utterly tragic situation.

It'll start with anti-French dog whistling from the papers tomorrow and will embolden the pond life like Farage and will permeate its way through to the political opportunists like Spaffer and Patel.

The arse is about to fall out Anglo-French relations. 

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The tragedy is UK plc shelling out multi billions of tax payers money to welfare up these mostly Muslim fighting age males who have ZERO right to be here and Johnson showing no interest in stopping it. I said last week tens of thousands will end up in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow on our coin and it's already happening at Dungavel. Another few years of this and we'll see no go zones and a security situation which makes the current SEVERE look like the good old days. I blame Blair, weak weak laws, a welfare system open to abuse, HR lawyer bonanzas. All adds up to UK plc being a paradise for them and they all know it. 

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4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

The tragedy is UK plc shelling out multi billions of tax payers money to welfare up these mostly Muslim fighting age males who have ZERO right to be here and Johnson showing no interest in stopping it. I said last week tens of thousands will end up in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow on our coin and it's already happening at Dungavel. Another few years of this and we'll see no go zones and a security situation which makes the current SEVERE look like the good old days. I blame Blair, weak weak laws, a welfare system open to abuse, HR lawyer bonanzas. All adds up to UK plc being a paradise for them and they all know it. 


keep-it-up-and-im-getting-a-human-whistl

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4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

The tragedy is UK plc shelling out multi billions of tax payers money to welfare up these mostly Muslim fighting age males who have ZERO right to be here and Johnson showing no interest in stopping it. I said last week tens of thousands will end up in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow on our coin and it's already happening at Dungavel. Another few years of this and we'll see no go zones and a security situation which makes the current SEVERE look like the good old days. I blame Blair, weak weak laws, a welfare system open to abuse, HR lawyer bonanzas. All adds up to UK plc being a paradise for them and they all know it. 

 

Thanks Enoch.

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WorldChampions1902
22 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Watch the political capital to be made from this utterly tragic situation.

It'll start with anti-French dog whistling from the papers tomorrow and will embolden the pond life like Farage and will permeate its way through to the political opportunists like Spaffer and Patel.

The arse is about to fall out Anglo-French relations. 

In many ways, that is part of the problem. As has been mentioned already, the behaviour of the U.K. government towards France and the EU has been appalling. Consequently, there is not a lot of goodwill towards us and we have proven ourselves to be untrustworthy when sticking to agreements. I hate to say it but I can understand the French behaving the way they now do. Reap what you sow.

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15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Thanks Enoch.

 

 

I would rather be compared to Frank Field. A man Labour and the left in general never listened to. 

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Francis Albert

If the Dublin Agreement enables EU states to return refugees to the country where they entered the EU why does France not do so? instead of holding them in camps close to the Channel? The Dublin Agreement has never been effective and the idea that the UK has lost out by no longer being party to it is nonsense. 

 

But I have a constructive suggestion. Why don't those thousands or hundreds of thousands who spent years in tears on the streets and in Parliament Square about leaving the EU and loss of their freedom of movement offer to swap with the refugees  and return to the EU? An exchange that would meet both desires.

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2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

But I have a constructive suggestion. Why don't those thousands or hundreds of thousands who spent years in tears on the streets and in Parliament Square about leaving the EU and loss of their freedom of movement offer to swap with the refugees  and return to the EU? An exchange that would meet both desires.


facepalm-really.gif

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3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If the Dublin Agreement enables EU states to return refugees to the country where they entered the EU why does France not do so? instead of holding them in camps close to the Channel? The Dublin Agreement has never been effective and the idea that the UK has lost out by no longer being party to it is nonsense. 

 

But I have a constructive suggestion. Why don't those thousands or hundreds of thousands who spent years in tears on the streets and in Parliament Square about leaving the EU and loss of their freedom of movement offer to swap with the refugees  and return to the EU? An exchange that would meet both desires.

 

:vrface:

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Francis Albert
5 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


facepalm-really.gif

A meme. Great.

 

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

:vrface:

And another one.

 

I was not being entirely serious but a better one than the solution proposed earlier of sending in the army and navy with gunboats.

And far from drowning refugees we have in fact been rescuing them. But if huge numbers are crossing in flimsy craft today was inevitable.

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SectionDJambo

Before we castigate the French about doing little or nothing about these migrants trying to cross the channel to the UK, consider if the situation was reversed, which I appreciate is geographically highly unlikely, and the migrants were leaving our shores to head for France, would the British public be happy if the UK authorities stopped them?

These unfortunate people have been encouraged by criminals to head for the UK, which results in them being in France before the final hazardous journey. The French can’t be expected to take all the responsibility for them. 
This an international problem which really has to be tackled from the source of why the journey is made in the first place. It will take determination, cooperation and imagination by many nations to stop this. Unfortunately, there seems to be little by way of those talents here or abroad.
This country cannot deny its responsibility for the lack of stability in the Middle East, given that we, and others, left the homeland of many of these poor people a shambles after invading it. That shambles has caused these people to seek better lives.

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1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

Not if France,  it's member state,  asks for or agrees to EU input.  All parties can quite merrily work together for a common cause.

 

France, and France alone, has authority in this matter.  Therefore France doesn't have any need of "EU input".  France can work away with the UK (this all assumes that the UK is interested) for a common cause.  Given that France has all the authority it needs in controlling its own borders, what "EU input" would it need?

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2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

France, and France alone, has authority in this matter.  Therefore France doesn't have any need of "EU input".  France can work away with the UK (this all assumes that the UK is interested) for a common cause.  Given that France has all the authority it needs in controlling its own borders, what "EU input" would it need?

 

Perhaps the EU angle should be within some kind of pan-europe or pan-EU + others summit to thrash out a wider cooperation and shared purpose.  Everything approached with the purpose of protecting life,  protecting human rights,  making lives less intolerable,  disrupting and destroying criminal gang business models,  sharing the burden of refugee intake,  better and stronger systems and processes across many national frontiers to process asylum claims and returns.  

 

BBC Newsnight's report tonight did not show France in anything but an atrocious light regarding the treatment of people in transit or awaiting passage.  Not even borderline human rights violations but actual.  If that's how France treats desperate and vulnerable people then no wonder they want out.

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1 hour ago, Boy Daniel said:


Ah I thought we were. I must admit it never really interested me as I could freely travel to other EU countries particularly Spain and stay there with out any real problem. 👍

 

Little-known (AFAIK) policy wonk fact: Although Ireland has been independent of the UK for almost 99 years, our visa and immigration policies for countries other than the EU/EEA are almost 100% made by the UK.  For example, a Chinese tourist who gets a UK visitor visa can also enter Ireland without having to apply for a separate visa, and with the same entitlements and restrictions.  In effect, Ireland isn't in Schengen because the UK isn't.  It might be technically feasible to design a system where Ireland could be in both Schengen and the Common Travel Area, but it would not be easy and would probably be very expensive.

 

By the way, I thought I read somewhere that the UK also had particular open travel arrangements with Malta and Cyprus - but I tried searching recently and I couldn't find anything.

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4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Perhaps the EU angle should be within some kind of pan-europe or pan-EU + others summit to thrash out a wider cooperation and shared purpose. 

 

Honestly, I think it wouldn't work and would only complicate the issue for both France and the UK. 

 

Any chance that the EU might have had to extend its remit in immigration was destroyed after the 2015 migration fiasco.  It suited Germany to let a lot of migrants in, both in terms of economics and human rights, so they issued a "come all ye" invitation.  Then when Germany hit the numbers they needed but people were still travelling Germany blocked any further immigration and they and the EU tried to get other countries to "take their share".  Other countries wouldn't, especially those in central Europe.

 

If France and the UK try to deal with this bilaterally that has the best chance of working.  The only way to get it to work on an EU-wide basis would be for the UK and the EU to agree an arrangement to replicate the Dublin Regulation - but that would have to be ratified by all 27 member states, and right now I think 7 or 8 countries would say no.  If they tried something that would give the EU a wider role most of the member states wouldn't tolerate it - and despite what the Brexiteers would tell you, the EU is only as powerful as its member countries let it be.

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14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

BBC Newsnight's report tonight did not show France in anything but an atrocious light regarding the treatment of people in transit or awaiting passage.  Not even borderline human rights violations but actual.  If that's how France treats desperate and vulnerable people then no wonder they want out.

 

In transit where?  Awaiting passage where?

 

 

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37 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Before we castigate the French about doing little or nothing about these migrants trying to cross the channel to the UK, consider if the situation was reversed, which I appreciate is geographically highly unlikely, and the migrants were leaving our shores to head for France, would the British public be happy if the UK authorities stopped them?

These unfortunate people have been encouraged by criminals to head for the UK, which results in them being in France before the final hazardous journey. The French can’t be expected to take all the responsibility for them. 
This an international problem which really has to be tackled from the source of why the journey is made in the first place. It will take determination, cooperation and imagination by many nations to stop this. Unfortunately, there seems to be little by way of those talents here or abroad.
This country cannot deny its responsibility for the lack of stability in the Middle East, given that we, and others, left the homeland of many of these poor people a shambles after invading it. That shambles has caused these people to seek better lives.

 

A great many years ago the EU began an aid and investment scheme designed to promote economic development in countries that "fringed" the bloc, particularly in North Africa.  It never took off, but it seems to me that unless we do something to support those countries and territories to develop their economies and also to manage climate change we are condemning them to permanent misery and condemning ourselves to a permanent "migration problem".

 

I agree with the point in bold, but I'd also add that a lot of European countries have a lot to answer for in the Middle East and on the African continent as well. 

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3 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:


Do you think Brexit has made things worse or better for the UK in terms of dealing with migrants?

I think the current government have made things worse.

Brexit was a vote imo which was delivered by and mostly from the same disgruntled voters which has seen the same in Scotland.

Brexit was unnecessary and despite my pointing out of EU shortcomings was anything but a rejection of being part of Europe .

Theres no doubt it was delivered on the back of many concerns but will likely not address those.

Brexit politics is an aside from the migration that we but in fact Europes mainland will face on a larger scale.

The solution imo lies in making life fairer in the countries and continents from which these people come from.

We haven't a fekin clue about how hopeless it is for them.

I wouldn't cross the forth in a boat to Fife.

But they cross a continent and a wild channel.

 

You can think what you want but until the ways of the world radically change economically and environmentally this is just the start.

Resetting brexit doesnt mean diddly squat.

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3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'm well aware that migration will grow, if for no other reason than climate change.  But you have no interest in dealing with that or fixing it.  All you want to do is use that as a way to whine about the EU.  It's all you do, partly because you hate it and partly because you don't understand it.  Come back with something constructive and surprise me, but otherwise all you're doing is picking issues and using them to flog your favourite dead horse.

You are wrong.

My problem is this threads response.

I kind of hoped you would have taken me up on the original posts about Belorussian political usage of refugees.

You got to admit you are defensive of the union.

There is a big picture here and where I 100% agree with you is the ineptitude of the current government in London.

But you cannot separate the examples I gave of nations treatment of migrants that are union members as not being the responsibilty of the union .

 

My points poorly made no doubt that somehow the UK alone and brexit voters particular are somehow glad to see migrants drown(I posted before the tragedy) is just ...shit.

You posted that I thought I was trying to be clever than I actually am.

Spot on with that.

Just be good to debate without being called gammon asked if I'm a boris fan etc.

I'm one of those boring folk who enjoy a debate and dont mind being informed.

And I'm also thick enough to get drawn into insults which I dont like doing.

What I will say is fundamentally I'm opposed to big government which I concede puts me at odds with the union.

But that also makes me independentally minded in the Scottish sense.

 

 

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It all could end quickly if Johnson grew a set. Enact emergency powers and deploy the army, navy, merchant and military, and organise same day returns to the beach they depart from. Strong possibility they get violent if forcibly removed so the military is the best option. Somebody trespasses on your property you don't put them up in a full board room and pay them a salary, even Mother Theresa wouldn't have done that. It should be a chargeable offense entering from a safe country and no way should asylum be granted for leaving Calais for Kent just because it offers a better free lunch. Asylum also equals dependents and a likely arranged marriage visa down the line. It's all part of why they want in here of course. We are weak and soft and they know it. 

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19 minutes ago, Ked said:

You are wrong.

My problem is this threads response.

I kind of hoped you would have taken me up on the original posts about Belorussian political usage of refugees.

You got to admit you are defensive of the union.

There is a big picture here and where I 100% agree with you is the ineptitude of the current government in London.

But you cannot separate the examples I gave of nations treatment of migrants that are union members as not being the responsibilty of the union .

 

My points poorly made no doubt that somehow the UK alone and brexit voters particular are somehow glad to see migrants drown(I posted before the tragedy) is just ...shit.

You posted that I thought I was trying to be clever than I actually am.

Spot on with that.

Just be good to debate without being called gammon asked if I'm a boris fan etc.

I'm one of those boring folk who enjoy a debate and dont mind being informed.

And I'm also thick enough to get drawn into insults which I dont like doing.

What I will say is fundamentally I'm opposed to big government which I concede puts me at odds with the union.

But that also makes me independentally minded in the Scottish sense.

 

 

 

I've already explained my position on the Belarus/Russia weaponisation of migrants, while you don't really seem to have one.  The migrants are in Belarus.  Why isn't Lukashenko looking after them instead of beating them to the border?  The migrants were assisted to Belarus through Russian territory by Putin - in some cases hundreds if not thousands of kilometres through Russian territory.  Why didn't he take care of them?  Or, when he had the ideal opportunity, turn them back across the border to where they came from?  And why do you have to blame the EU for the treatment of displaced people by Belarus and Russia? 

 

If migrants are capsizing off the English coast, it is up to the British government to decide whether to let them in or let then drown - and be responsible for the consequences.  Likewise, it is a matter for Poland to decide whether to let the people at its border in or let them freeze - and be responsible for the consequences.  If it was the Irish coast and the Irish government, I wouldn't want migrants to be drowning, but I'm not a Polish or British voter.

 

Do you see the sentence highlighted in bold?  Here's your answer.  Yes, I can separate them.  It is you who can't separate them.  Why?  Because I'm taking into account how the EU's legal framework operates, and you aren't.  The EU has no control over Poland's immigration policies and laws.  None.  Despite the fantasies and made up horseshite of the Brexiteers, the UK's immigration rules were and are a matter for the UK, and Poland's immigration rules are a matter for Poland.

 

I am not being defensive of the EU's position on immigration.  I'm not attacking it either.  I'm just trying to tell you how things are.  It doesn't matter if I agree with how they are, or disagree with how they are - but they are how they are, and there is no point in pretending that they're not.

 

There are plenty of ways for the EU to shit on the floor.  But this is not one of them. 

 

I'll meet you one day and buy you a pint - but for **** sake can we talk about football or what's on telly?

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7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

In transit where?  Awaiting passage where?

 

 

 

The UK.  By sea on death trap boats.  The thing we've been talking about.  

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The Mighty Thor
10 hours ago, JackLadd said:

The tragedy is UK plc shelling out multi billions of tax payers money to welfare up these mostly Muslim fighting age males who have ZERO right to be here and Johnson showing no interest in stopping it. I said last week tens of thousands will end up in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow on our coin and it's already happening at Dungavel. Another few years of this and we'll see no go zones and a security situation which makes the current SEVERE look like the good old days. I blame Blair, weak weak laws, a welfare system open to abuse, HR lawyer bonanzas. All adds up to UK plc being a paradise for them and they all know it. 

The walking Daily Mail/Daily Express/Britain First has spoken.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ked said:

I think the current government have made things worse.

Brexit was a vote imo which was delivered by and mostly from the same disgruntled voters which has seen the same in Scotland.

Brexit was unnecessary and despite my pointing out of EU shortcomings was anything but a rejection of being part of Europe .

Theres no doubt it was delivered on the back of many concerns but will likely not address those.

Brexit politics is an aside from the migration that we but in fact Europes mainland will face on a larger scale.

The solution imo lies in making life fairer in the countries and continents from which these people come from.

We haven't a fekin clue about how hopeless it is for them.

I wouldn't cross the forth in a boat to Fife.

But they cross a continent and a wild channel.

 

You can think what you want but until the ways of the world radically change economically and environmentally this is just the start.

Resetting brexit doesnt mean diddly squat.


I agree with a lot of that Ked. The only point I’d make is that you’re underplaying how central immigration was to the Brexit vote and the Vote Leave campaign. Brexit was hailed as the solution to the “mass influx” and we’d be taking back control but it’s made things worse and the choices of this govt have compounded it further as you say.

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https://apple.news/Ao1_9HdrJRXefivwRbhcZ8g

 

Amongst some interesting truths about the failings of Brexit in the above article this poll gives me hope that somewhere in the near future we may in fact vote to rejoin the EU. 

 

“Support for rejoining the EU has flipped from a majority against, to a majority in favour since June, according to pollsters Comres. Backing for EU membership has risen to 53 per cent from 49 per cent.”

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