ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I thought silent witness was a bit iffy this week. Too much of a coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo100 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 We are leaving with no deal on 29th March the Law.No border in Ireland the Law.You cannot have both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Italy is now officially in recession and Germany & France are tettering on the brink of recession, indeed the entire Eurozone economy isn't in a good state. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47068401 A 'no deal' brexit is the last thing some countries within the Eurozone need right now. Edited January 31, 2019 by Jambo-Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I feel that Brexit will result in Scotland being independent within 10 years. Not due to the SNP, Sturgeon or second referendums but because once Little England are out of the EU, who are they going to blame? Can't blame those foreigners, can't blame immigrants. Only group they can still blame for not having their Great British Empire is the Scots. The jeering of the Tory MP's when a Scottish MP tries to speak at the moment is just the start. Will only get worse when the, 'it's all the EU's fault' option can't be used anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 37 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said: I feel that Brexit will result in Scotland being independent within 10 years. Not due to the SNP, Sturgeon or second referendums but because once Little England are out of the EU, who are they going to blame? Can't blame those foreigners, can't blame immigrants. Only group they can still blame for not having their Great British Empire is the Scots. The jeering of the Tory MP's when a Scottish MP tries to speak at the moment is just the start. Will only get worse when the, 'it's all the EU's fault' option can't be used anymore. A corollary to your argument - who would the Scots have left to blame when things go badly (and they will) if there is no longer the English bogeyman? Also, you should take time to look past the bear pit of such as PMQs (where every party jeers the others) and look at regular parliamentary business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: A corollary to your argument - who would the Scots have left to blame when things go badly (and they will) if there is no longer the English bogeyman? Also, you should take time to look past the bear pit of such as PMQs (where every party jeers the others) and look at regular parliamentary business. Indeed, a perfect example was yesterday, May & Corbyn tearing strips off each other over the dispatch box & 30 minutes or so later they are sitting down with tea & biscuits having a nice cordial chat about brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Investment in the car industry down 80% since the leave vote. And brexit still to hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 36 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: A corollary to your argument - who would the Scots have left to blame when things go badly (and they will) if there is no longer the English bogeyman? Also, you should take time to look past the bear pit of such as PMQs (where every party jeers the others) and look at regular parliamentary business. I don't see it so much as blaming "the English", but rather the Westminster system. Once out we would have no one else to blame but ourselves, which would perhaps Foster a greater sense of responsibility? To me that's positive. As for the jeering on parliament, from what I've seen, the SNP get short shrift from the Tories, at best patronising, at worst scotophobic vitriol. This Tory Anglo superiority complex will see them hoist by their own petard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 31 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Investment in the car industry down 80% since the leave vote. And brexit still to hit. Evidence please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, jake said: Evidence please. The News. BBC and Stv. But it wasn't Stacey Dooley, so you might not believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, Boris said: I don't see it so much as blaming "the English", but rather the Westminster system. Once out we would have no one else to blame but ourselves, which would perhaps Foster a greater sense of responsibility? To me that's positive. As for the jeering on parliament, from what I've seen, the SNP get short shrift from the Tories, at best patronising, at worst scotophobic vitriol. This Tory Anglo superiority complex will see them hoist by their own petard. One of the reasons I voted for Indy was as you say in your first paragraph. What I will find amusing is the economic arguments used by some Indy voters about brexit. Yesterday showed Scotland's exports have risen. 49 billion to England 17 billion to rest of world 14 billion to the EU. Now if leaving the EU is so difficult and will cause Armageddon. Well you know ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: The News. BBC and Stv. But it wasn't Stacey Dooley, so you might not believe it. Is this today? Tried looking could only find stuff from June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ri Alban said: The News. BBC and Stv. But it wasn't Stacey Dooley, so you might not believe it. Thought you didn't trust the been? Sorry beeb. Edited January 31, 2019 by jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, jake said: One of the reasons I voted for Indy was as you say in your first paragraph. What I will find amusing is the economic arguments used by some Indy voters about brexit. Yesterday showed Scotland's exports have risen. 49 billion to England 17 billion to rest of world 14 billion to the EU. Now if leaving the EU is so difficult and will cause Armageddon. Well you know ....... Leaving the eu shouldn't be difficult, it's just the government hasn't the wherewithal to do it! They are trying to square circles that they simply can't. Not for the benefit of the U.K., but for the benefit of the Tory party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Just now, Boris said: Leaving the eu shouldn't be difficult, it's just the government hasn't the wherewithal to do it! They are trying to square circles that they simply can't. Not for the benefit of the U.K., but for the benefit of the Tory party. I'm talking about the general view of the SNP and Indy supporters who make the economic case for remain. Or rather the doomsday predictions of leaving. I think the very arguments some use will be handed back . Really think the SNP have played brexit badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, jake said: One of the reasons I voted for Indy was as you say in your first paragraph. What I will find amusing is the economic arguments used by some Indy voters about brexit. Yesterday showed Scotland's exports have risen. 49 billion to England 17 billion to rest of world 14 billion to the EU. Now if leaving the EU is so difficult and will cause Armageddon. Well you know ....... 2 minutes ago, jake said: I'm talking about the general view of the SNP and Indy supporters who make the economic case for remain. Or rather the doomsday predictions of leaving. I think the very arguments some use will be handed back . Really think the SNP have played brexit badly. They're just giving it back with interest from Indyref. Remain Scotland was the best outcome for Scottish independence, pity you're too busy/blind with well you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, jake said: Thought you didn't trust the been? Sorry beeb. I don't, pity you like to pick and choose what you believe. Anything to confirm your bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, Boris said: I don't see it so much as blaming "the English", but rather the Westminster system. Once out we would have no one else to blame but ourselves, which would perhaps Foster a greater sense of responsibility? To me that's positive. As for the jeering on parliament, from what I've seen, the SNP get short shrift from the Tories, at best patronising, at worst scotophobic vitriol. This Tory Anglo superiority complex will see them hoist by their own petard. We live in the midst of the SNP greed and grievance culture - that is not going to simply evaporate. Again, PMQs is theatre (just as it is at Holyrood) and the SNP are as guilty of boorish behaviour as any of the other parties. Any party that has Blackford (you may recall the recent mention of his attacks on Charles Kennedy) as its leader in the house doesn’t really have much cause for complaint. The routine debates and committee sessions are much more civilised and productive. The Holocaust debate last week was a very good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: A 'no deal' brexit is the last thing some countries within the Eurozone need right now. Why do you think that? A no deal Brexit is undesirable, and it is on a list of things eurozone countries would prefer to avoid, but there's no country in the eurozone where it would be described as the "last thing" they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: Investment in the car industry down 80% since the leave vote. And brexit still to hit. 1 hour ago, jake said: Evidence please. 80% is mentioned but not sure exact details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, jake said: Evidence please. The Brexit position is "We might indeed have short term disruption including investment delayed. But the long term benefits of conducting independent trade policy including offering incentives to business will create major benefits in the medium to long term". 'Evidence please' is saying 'not listening, everything is fine'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: The Brexit position is "We might indeed have short term disruption including investment delayed. But the long term benefits of conducting independent trade policy including offering incentives to business will create major benefits in the medium to long term". 'Evidence please' is saying 'not listening, everything is fine'. Errmm no. It is simply asking for evidence to back up a claim. As with the oft-repeated claim that a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. After months of asking no-one has identified the relevant provision in the GFA. (or indeed the relevant UK statute that would mean as claimed by one poster that a border would be illegal under UK law). The BBC summary (linked above) of what the GFA says about the border confirms that it would not breach the GFA. It may make some provisions more difficult, it may provide an excuse for renewed violence and upset the "delicate balance" of the peace settlement, it may be inconsistent with the undefined "spirit" of the agreement, and is certainly something best avoided ... but it would not be a breach of the GFA. Even if as also often claimed the UK and Irish Governments, the EU and the United Nations believe that it would. Edited January 31, 2019 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Errmm no. It is simply asking for evidence to back up a claim. As with the oft-repeated claim that a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. After months of asking no-one has identified the relevant provision in the GFA. (or indeed the relevant UK statute that would mean as claimed by one poster that a border would be illegal under UK law). The BBC summary (linked above) of what the GFA says about the border confirms that it would not breach the GFA. It may make some provisions more difficult, it may provide an excuse for renewed violence and upset the "delicate balance" of the peace settlement, it may be inconsistent with the undefined "spirit" of the agreement, and is certainly something best avoided ... but it would not be a breach of the GFA. Even if as also often claimed the UK and Irish Governments, the EU and the United Nations believe that it would. Took me 20 seconds to find the link I posted. For someone who was questioning the statement. Not trusting the person who posted it. A bit different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 44 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: 80% is mentioned but not sure exact details The links you posted state that the ‘schism (Brexit) is adding to existing uncertainty brought about by issues with diesel’. It does not state that Brexit is the single cause. The slowing Chinese economy has also hit car sales. It probably hasn’t registered on the news here but Volkswagen Audi had to impose an extended summer break last year as it wasn’t fully ready to meet the 1 Sept 18 deadline for WLTP (real life emissions testing) and as some models with highly stressed petrol engines had ‘failed’ the new tests. These enforced changes will divert cash from investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Ulysses said: Why do you think that? A no deal Brexit is undesirable, and it is on a list of things eurozone countries would prefer to avoid, but there's no country in the eurozone where it would be described as the "last thing" they need. Well if your economy is already fragile and tettering on the brink of a recession, then a 'no deal' brexit with all it's predicted negative economic effects, could very well be the last thing an already struggling & fragile economy needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: 80% is mentioned but not sure exact details I didn't see the number 80% in the Bloomberg article but there is a figure of 90% reduction since 2013 from nearly 6bn to less than 3bn, most of the reduction occurring before the Brexit referendum, which suggests to me factors other than Brexit may be dominant. Of course huge swathes of UK manufacturing industry have disappeared since we joined the EU, but I wouldn't see that is cause and effect - more about UK Government policy and underlying economic drivers. I won't attempt to do a link again (and doubtless fail), but the BBC News site today has an analysis that suggests the economic impact so far has been fairly modest. Of course we haven't left yet. Edited January 31, 2019 by Francis Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 "If even an invisible Irish border is unacceptable to the EU, another option is available: a customs territory comprising the UK and Ireland. The republic could remain in the EU but leave its customs union, agreeing instead a common commercial policy including matching tariffs with the UK." -Nick Timothy, former chief of staff to PM May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Boris said: I don't see it so much as blaming "the English", but rather the Westminster system. Once out we would have no one else to blame but ourselves, which would perhaps Foster a greater sense of responsibility? To me that's positive. As for the jeering on parliament, from what I've seen, the SNP get short shrift from the Tories, at best patronising, at worst scotophobic vitriol. This Tory Anglo superiority complex will see them hoist by their own petard. Surely, to borrow your SNP analogy on blaming the English, then the jeering of Blackford isn't about the MP being Scottish but because he's a nationalist? Watch Blackford, Cherry, Black and the likes of Wishart. You'd think they were debating Satan not another person with a different point of view. Cherry this week sat yelling "CHEERIO! GOOD BYE! SEE YA!" as MPs left during Blackford's speech. What's all that about? The SNP too have a strong streak of intolerance to others man. It's poor behaviour from all of them. Let's not elevate some over others. Edited January 31, 2019 by JamboX2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, JamboX2 said: Surely, to borrow your SNP analogy on blaming the English, then the jeering of Blackford isn't about the MP being Scottish but because he's a nationalist? Hypocrisy, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Hypocrisy, then. What's your point? Nationalism in general is crap. We're no better placed to make good decisions than Frenchman or Belgians or the Congolese let alone as Scots or Brits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, JamboX2 said: What's your point? Nationalism in general is crap. We're no better placed to make good decisions than Frenchman or Belgians or the Congolese let alone as Scots or Brits. Says who. I'll put Scottish nationalism up against your newly found love of British Nationalism any day. One's self rule the others rule everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: What's your point? Nationalism in general is crap. We're no better placed to make good decisions than Frenchman or Belgians or the Congolese let alone as Scots or Brits. Scots are better placed to make decisions on Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 May should tell the Eu to cancel the backstop Then Tell them you have 1 year to come up with proper deal or we leave on WTO rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, XB52 said: Scots are better placed to make decisions on Scotland So you accept the brexit argument then that the EU should have 0 say over Scotland? No French commissioners should draft laws which impact Scots because they don't live here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Says who. I'll put Scottish nationalism up against your newly found love of British Nationalism any day. One's self rule the others rule everyone. I don't love either side. I'm testing your argument. Is leaving the EU not self rule as well? For Brexiteers. Do you accept that in an IndyScotland if it's in the EU then there will be non-Scots with a say over matters in Scotland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, JAYEL said: May should tell the Eu to cancel the backstop Then Tell them you have 1 year to come up with proper deal or we leave on WTO rules And go back on everything she agreed to under her red lines? Why agree anything with her?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Just now, Cade said: All are mugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, JAYEL said: May should tell the Eu to cancel the backstop Then Tell them you have 1 year to come up with proper deal or we leave on WTO rules Giving someone an ultimatum isn't how negotiations work. As for WTO rules - seriously , do you know what this REALLY means ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 WTO rules are not an automatic given. As has been pointed out before, China, Russia, USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and several others are blocking the UK from automatically adopting certain WTO rules and quotas. We'd have to have lengthy negotiations before even being allowed to use WTO rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 May certainly worked a number on her Tory rebels with the Brady amendment. They fell for it hook, line and sinker. All it is is another period of running the clock down... with impunity. Her party swallowed it because they are relieved to have headed off the other amendments which were perceived to be hazardous to Brexit happening at all. Plus they see a further delay as helpful to a no deal outcome. May knew all along that the vague wording of the Brady amendment, containing no specific solution to replace the backstop, would be dismissed out of hand. She waited until the amendment was secured before saying there was "limited" prospects of movement with the EU. She knew it, knows it and doesn't want it. She wants to resurrect her deal further down the line. She expertly used the neurosis of Brexiteers to engineer a further two week delay. Brexiteer lunatics think they are either getting shot of the backstop or getting a hard Brexit. But they've been played for mugs to further the cause of May's deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 19 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said: Giving someone an ultimatum isn't how negotiations work. It seemed to work reasonably well for Trump in his dealings with the EU in the recent short-lived Trade War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Well if your economy is already fragile and tettering on the brink of a recession, then a 'no deal' brexit with all it's predicted negative economic effects, could very well be the last thing an already struggling & fragile economy needs. Ah. You're being figurative. The last thing the EU 27 economies need, in or out of the eurozone, and whether or not they're slowing down, is to damage the integrity of operation of the Single Market that accounts for nearly seven times as much trade as the trading agreement they used to have with a departing member. As ever, we'll just have to put ourselves first and limit the damage as best we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 40 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: So you accept the brexit argument then that the EU should have 0 say over Scotland? No French commissioners should draft laws which impact Scots because they don't live here? Why try and be smart?? The vast majority of laws affecting Scotland are passed at westminster. After independence, the vast majority of laws affecting Scotland will be passed at Holyrood. Whether an independent Scotland stays, leaves or rejoins the E U will be up to the people of Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 56 minutes ago, JAYEL said: May should tell the Eu to cancel the backstop Then Tell them you have 1 year to come up with proper deal or we leave on WTO rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, ri Alban said: I don't, pity you like to pick and choose what you believe. Anything to confirm your bias. You don't trust the BBC but use them to back up what your bias is then accuse me of that. ? By the way where is the article regarding 80%? Interested to read it. Edited January 31, 2019 by jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Ulysses said: Do you enjoy brexit? Serious question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said: Giving someone an ultimatum isn't how negotiations work. As for WTO rules - seriously , do you know what this REALLY means ? Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 49 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: It seemed to work reasonably well for Trump in his dealings with the EU in the recent short-lived Trade War. Good luck. It's obviously not working for Mayhem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, JAYEL said: Yep Terrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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