Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Dawnrazor]

39 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

None according to Sky News, as all the current models built in Sunderland will continue to be built there.

The X-Trail was a future order and should have no impact upon the current workforce.

 

That's how I understand it. 

[The Mighty Thor]

56 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Show us exactly why this will happen. And don't just quote project fear. 

Show us exactly why this will not happen. 

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

“These emergency evacuation plans have been in existence since the Cold War”--like you said, been around for decades--“but have now been repurposed in the event of civil disorder following a no-deal Brexit,” a Cabinet Office source told The Sunday Times.
 

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

It's a crock of shit that the guardian practices daily.

Wish you could see that Justin as a lot of that rags stories on brexit fail beyond the headline.

 

 

 

Justin Z was talking about the story in The Sunday Times.

[Cade]

Nissan happy to build cars in UK due to having access to EU market.

 

UK is leaving EU.

 

Japan just signed a trade deal with EU.

 

Nissan will now make cars in Japan and ship to EU.

 

 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

 

Now updated to say they will be built in Japan.

 

Says 7000 jobs, but not how many will be lost.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure none will be lost directly, but it means that new jobs will go to Kyushu instead of Sunderland.

 

Nissan gave an assurance that the X-Trail would be built in Sunderland in September 2016.  Now they say it won't, and cite uncertainty over Brexit as part of the reason.  You can be sure that means uncertainty about whether there will be a post-Brexit deal.  You can also be sure that a big factor in this is the new EU-Japan trade deal.  With that deal in place, and with a post-Brexit deal in place between the EU and the UK, Nissan could make the best use of the supply chain between Kyushu, Sunderland and the EU to deliver its product.  With no certainty about a post-Brexit deal, it has to make use of whatever certainty there is in the production and sales environment - that means relying on the EU-Japan trade deal.

 

It doesn't mean that jobs are directly at risk in Sunderland - yet.  And the fact that this news is about jobs being diverted rather than job losses is no reason at all for relief or complacency.

[Ulysses]

^^^^

 

I said the same as Cade said - but with more words.

[Seymour M Hersh]

35 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Show us exactly why this will not happen. 

 

Clearly you cannot defend your position. You are the one making the dire predictions not me I said that it provides opportunities we need to take them whether we will remains to be seen. So come on now give us some creditable and corroborate them why it will be a massive disaster. My bet is you can't.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Clearly you cannot defend your position. You are the one making the dire predictions not me I said that it provides opportunities we need to take them whether we will remains to be seen. So come on now give us some creditable and corroborate them why it will be a massive disaster. My bet is you can't.

I can give the same creditable proof and corroboration on why it'll be an economic disaster as you can on why it'll be a great opportunity. None at all. 

Your gut feeling and opinion versus mine. 

We'll find out in 54 days though. 

[Cade]

29 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

^^^^

 

I said the same as Cade said - but with more words.

You have to use short sentences and short words with few syllables when talking with Brexiteers.

[jake]

44 minutes ago, Cade said:

Nissan happy to build cars in UK due to having access to EU market.

 

UK is leaving EU.

 

Japan just signed a trade deal with EU.

 

Nissan will now make cars in Japan and ship to EU.

 

 

That will do wonders for the environment.

 

[Beni]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Don't spoil the fun! Seeing a shot of Buck House in one report of this "news"  story I was having a nice daydream of a replay of the American evacuation from their Saigon embassy at the end of the Vietnam war.

We could watch what in this case would be "hangers on" in both a  literal and figurative sense, clinging to the helicopters as they lifted off from the roof.

A bit off topic I know, but my uncle was on the last chopper out of Saigon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He had to pedal like hell.

[jake]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

You have to use short sentences and short words with few syllables when talking with Brexiteers.

In a nutshell .

Working class were more likely to vote brexit.

People like you would say turkeys voting for Christmas.

Sometimes their small worded concerns build a bigger picture.

Something you clearly still fail to understand.

And it was working class across the whole of the UK.

 

By the way doesn't matter if turkeys vote for Christmas or not.

Does it?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I'm pretty sure none will be lost directly, but it means that new jobs will go to Kyushu instead of Sunderland.

 

Nissan gave an assurance that the X-Trail would be built in Sunderland in September 2016.  Now they say it won't, and cite uncertainty over Brexit as part of the reason.  You can be sure that means uncertainty about whether there will be a post-Brexit deal.  You can also be sure that a big factor in this is the new EU-Japan trade deal.  With that deal in place, and with a post-Brexit deal in place between the EU and the UK, Nissan could make the best use of the supply chain between Kyushu, Sunderland and the EU to deliver its product.  With no certainty about a post-Brexit deal, it has to make use of whatever certainty there is in the production and sales environment - that means relying on the EU-Japan trade deal.

 

It doesn't mean that jobs are directly at risk in Sunderland - yet.  And the fact that this news is about jobs being diverted rather than job losses is no reason at all for relief or complacency.

Every business cites Brexit as part of the reason for bad news. It is not at all clear how big a part Brexit played in Nissan's decision. From what I have read the steep decline in demand for diesel vehicles and the efficiency of concentrating petrol engine production in Kyushu seems a bigger factor.

Similarly Jaguar Landrover has thrown in Brexit as a reason for its recent problems when steep reduction in sales in the USA and China and (again) exposure to the flight from diesel seem much greater factors.

[Justin Z]

5 hours ago, jake said:

It's a crock of shit that the guardian practices daily.

Wish you could see that Justin as a lot of that rags stories on brexit fail beyond the headline.

 

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Justin Z was talking about the story in The Sunday Times.

 

Wish Jake could see that 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The Saxe Coburg and Gotha family can stay , just like the rest of us. On saying that, they might decide brexit isn't for them and go home to Germany.

Aye good riddance to the sponging scum. 

[XB52]

2 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

A bit off topic I know, but my uncle was on the last chopper out of Saigon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He had to pedal like hell.

And still off topic, my mate flew one of the last choppers out of saigon.

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, XB52 said:

And still off topic, my mate flew one of the last choppers out of saigon.

Bloody hell, he must've REALLY been peddling hard to get one to fly! 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Dawnrazor

[Ulysses]

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

On 01/02/2019 at 18:40, jake said:

The bigotry towards your nationality in Scotland still exists no doubt.

 

On 01/02/2019 at 23:09, Ulysses said:

As for the "close to home" bit, it's been less than comfortable for me to see the same sentiments creep into some comments here.  In fairness, although two or three people have sailed close to the wind I've only noticed one person actually breaking the rules, and the moderators have been quick to deal with the posts in that person's case.  But being xenophobic or bigoted isn't necessary and it doesn't add anything to the discussion anyway.

 

 

I sincerely hope that my blatant anti-Irish Catholic angle (usually on football related threads) has not been taken as to actually represent the views of this poster in any real or meaningful sense.

[Governor Tarkin]

18 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Bloody hell, he must've REALLY been peddling hard to get one to fly! 

 

[Mikey1874]

A twist. Might help. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Cade]

Trimble's court action will be killed by the first Judge it meets.

 

 

[jake]

4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 

I sincerely hope that my blatant anti-Irish Catholic angle (usually on football related threads) has not been taken as to actually represent the views of this poster in any real or meaningful sense.

?

[jake]

What does everyone think of the proposal to grant EU citizens free access.

Would that work in relation to Ireland.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, jake said:

What does everyone think of the proposal to grant EU citizens free access.

Would that work in relation to Ireland.

 

Free access to what?

[Mikey1874]

18 minutes ago, jake said:

What does everyone think of the proposal to grant EU citizens free access.

Would that work in relation to Ireland.

 

UK and Ireland have a separate free movement agreement 

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

UK and Ireland have a separate free movement agreement 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

 

I had never heard of this.

[jake]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Free access to what?

Free access to the UK.

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

Free access to the UK.

 

For what? To visit? To work? To live?

[jake]

49 minutes ago, Smithee said:

For what? To visit? To work? To live?

Just that free access.

Would it remove concerns .

Could some shades of brexit voters accept it as a means to move forward.

 

 

I'd love for brexit to grab the reigns .

To do this will take time.

Brexit imo is going to prove a turning point .

Positively.

[jake]

What's to stop brexit being a new approach if that's what we want.

 

It's the same principle as independence.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Just that free access.

Would it remove concerns .

Could some shades of brexit voters accept it as a means to move forward.

 

 

I'd love for brexit to grab the reigns .

To do this will take time.

Brexit imo is going to prove a turning point .

Positively.

 

You mean this?

 

 

[Ulysses]

9 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 

I sincerely hope that my blatant anti-Irish Catholic angle (usually on football related threads) has not been taken as to actually represent the views of this poster in any real or meaningful sense.

 

 

I'd have you on my "I'd offer that fella a pint if I met him" list.  Just goes to show how little I know, eh?   

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Just that free access.

 

 

To what?  For whom?  For what purpose?

 

You can't have free access to nothing.  It has to involve free access to something, for someone, and for specified reasons.

 

For example, EU or no EU, UK citizens have an automatic right to travel to Ireland, live in Ireland, work in Ireland, and vote in local and general elections.  The only things they can't do are vote in European elections once the UK leaves the EU, and vote in Presidential elections and constitutional referenda.  Otherwise, British citizens have access to everything in Ireland on precisely the same basis as Irish citizens - and have more access than EU citizens.

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

 

I had never heard of this.

 

See?  And you've gone to more trouble than others to keep yourself informed. 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

See?  And you've gone to more trouble than others to keep yourself informed. 

 

Off-topic, I actually feel very privileged that the Republic has granted these rights to me and my fellow countrymen, especially considering the histories of our two countries. Quite sobering, really, especially since I've just come back from a short (and enjoyable) stay in that very Republic.

[Francis Albert]

35 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

To what?  For whom?  For what purpose?

 

You can't have free access to nothing.  It has to involve free access to something, for someone, and for specified reasons.

 

For example, EU or no EU, UK citizens have an automatic right to travel to Ireland, live in Ireland, work in Ireland, and vote in local and general elections.  The only things they can't do are vote in European elections once the UK leaves the EU, and vote in Presidential elections and constitutional referenda.  Otherwise, British citizens have access to everything in Ireland on precisely the same basis as Irish citizens - and have more access than EU citizens.

Correct me if I am wrong (of course you won't but someone might!) but I think that right is reciprocal for citizens of the Irish Republic living, working and voting in the UK. Reciprocal rights that long predate our both joining the EU in 1974.

Long may those rights survive.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Off-topic, I actually feel very privileged that the Republic has granted these rights to me and my fellow countrymen, especially considering the histories of our two countries. Quite sobering, really, especially since I've just come back from a short (and enjoyable) stay in that very Republic.

 

 

In fairness, the same (or similar) rights are available to Irish citizens living in the UK.  For reasons connected with its exit from empire and the development of the Commonwealth, the UK has for about 70 years extended voting rights to Irish citizens and some Commonwealth citizens who are resident in the UK.  In the late 1940s and for many years after that, this was not regarded by the Irish as a positive thing, to be honest, and it was not until 1984/85 that Irish law was altered to extend the same rights to UK citizens resident here.  That decision was made at a very difficult and low point in relations between the two countries, yet still it was made on the back of a 3-to-1 vote in a referendum.  It is open to the Irish government to reach bilateral agreements with EU member states on parliamentary voting rights, but 35 years later we still haven't done this with any other EU country.

 

The real achievement in relations between the UK and Ireland was when, understanding that identity was central to the NI conflict, we all agreed to put mechanisms in place whereby people living in Northern Ireland could identify as British, or Irish, or sometimes both, and in the case of people who migrated in to NI sometimes neither.  Underpinning those mechanisms were two key principles.  One was the capacity for frictionless and free movement around this island; the other was that the governments would neither expect people to choose either side of the identity barrier, nor favour either side of the identity barrier.  It was once described as "replacing the politics of the latest atrocity with the politics of the latest ambiguity".  You won't find those principles spelled out in a couple of sentences, but they infuse most of the text of the Good Friday Agreement, and much of the policy relationship between the two governments since the late 1990s.  It is genuinely difficult, maybe impossible, for outsiders to understand how that has worked and why it has worked.  The border is very real, but it is designed so that people who need to treat it as invisible can do so.  The Irish government prioritises the interests of the Irish, the British government prioritises the interests of the British, but neither (until recently) cuts across the priorities of the other.  It has been very effective, and yet almost traceless.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I see the latest proposal to keep the channel ports moving is 'honesty box' customs documentation. Just file your paperwork 1 hour before you arrive and you'll roll right through the border with a cheery wave, and we'll worry about pesky things like taxes and duties later. 

Now that's taking back control Johnny foreigner. 

[doctor jambo]

14 hours ago, jake said:

What does everyone think of the proposal to grant EU citizens free access.

Would that work in relation to Ireland.

It is going to take honesty from all parties- to remove the fallacy that immigration is BAD.

They all need to get together and state it is a GOOD thing, and provides an able motivated workforce that we need to support the pensioners in this country.

I cannot think of anyone who cannot get a job because of immigration.

Its lazy to blame your own misfortunes/unemployability on others merely because they are better qualified or harder working than you.

That's the world for you!

[jake]

12 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

To what?  For whom?  For what purpose?

 

You can't have free access to nothing.  It has to involve free access to something, for someone, and for specified reasons.

 

For example, EU or no EU, UK citizens have an automatic right to travel to Ireland, live in Ireland, work in Ireland, and vote in local and general elections.  The only things they can't do are vote in European elections once the UK leaves the EU, and vote in Presidential elections and constitutional referenda.  Otherwise, British citizens have access to everything in Ireland on precisely the same basis as Irish citizens - and have more access than EU citizens.

Was something I heard on the radio.

A suggestion from some group of mps I think.

It suggested free access to the UK for EU citizens.

That way getting round the hard border.

I think that was the jist of it.

 

[Toggie88]

14 minutes ago, jake said:

Was something I heard on the radio.

A suggestion from some group of mps I think.

It suggested free access to the UK for EU citizens.

That way getting round the hard border.

I think that was the jist of it.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm getting the jist, but the issue with the border isn't the free movement of people - as others have pointed out, the UK & Ireland have their own common travel area already - the rest of the EU have their own (Schengen). 

 

The issue is to do with goods. Ireland are part of the EU customs union, we can't have an open border (without the backstop) unless we're in the same customs union with the Irish. Now the Irish are not in any hurry to give up access to the EU's single market and similarly in no rush to join a post-Brexit custom union with the UK - so the whole thing is a non-starter imo. 

[jake]

10 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I'm not sure I'm getting the jist, but the issue with the border isn't the free movement of people - as others have pointed out, the UK & Ireland have their own common travel area already - the rest of the EU have their own (Schengen). 

 

The issue is to do with goods. Ireland are part of the EU customs union, we can't have an open border (without the backstop) unless we're in the same customs union with the Irish. Now the Irish are not in any hurry to give up access to the EU's single market and similarly in no rush to join a post-Brexit custom union with the UK - so the whole thing is a non-starter imo. 

Thanks 

[Francis Albert]

6 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see the latest proposal to keep the channel ports moving is 'honesty box' customs documentation. Just file your paperwork 1 hour before you arrive and you'll roll right through the border with a cheery wave, and we'll worry about pesky things like taxes and duties later. 

Now that's taking back control Johnny foreigner. 

I have in nearly fifty years of passing through customs always gone through the Green Channel and not the Red. I have been stopped and examined precisely once, less than than  1%  of the times I have done so. Unsurprisingly perhaps it was as a student coming back from Amsterdam when it was assumed that drugs were why young people with long hair  went there.

When you think about it the Green/Red Channels options are a sort of "honesty box" .

And I suppose my case was an example of profiling in policing the honesty box.

Now of course there is a major  issue of scale when you are talking about the commercial movement of goods but the concept is not in itself outlandish. It just offends Remainers whose Project Fear includes an insistence that every car and lorry on a border must physically be inspected by a border guard resulting in tens of miles of tail backs and days of waiting.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I have in nearly fifty years of passing through customs always gone through the Green Channel and not the Red. I have been stopped and examined precisely once, less than than  1%  of the times I have done so. Unsurprisingly perhaps it was as a student coming back from Amsterdam when it was assumed that drugs were why young people with long hair  went there.

When you think about it the Green/Red Channels options are a sort of "honesty box" .

And I suppose my case was an example of profiling in policing the honesty box.

Now of course there is a major  issue of scale when you are talking about the commercial movement of goods but the concept is not in itself outlandish. It just offends Remainers whose Project Fear includes an insistence that every car and lorry on a border must physically be inspected by a border guard resulting in tens of miles of tail backs and days of waiting.

The current Red and Green channels are a sort of honesty box except they aren't as both you and your bags are subjected to screening more than once, particularly if you are flying.

 

You're right, there is a huge issue when talking about the commercial movement of goods as this proposal would appear to suggest that the UK is just going to abandon it's current import procedures for goods from another country just because the government is in a state of unpreparedness for something it achieved 31 months ago. That's project fact.

 

Of course the online registration system for the new unicorns paperwork doesn't exist yet and the people who would check the huge volume of the online paperwork, which doesn't exist yet, haven't been employed yet, but other than that it's a sterling plan.

 

Taking back control or completely out of control?

[Cade]

52 days to go and still all we have are nebulous aims, meaningless soundbites and empty promises.

 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

52 days to go and still all we have are nebulous aims, meaningless soundbites and empty promises.

 

 

I think May has spent her time re-dotting all the letters I with love hearts and smiley faces. 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The current Red and Green channels are a sort of honesty box except they aren't as both you and your bags are subjected to screening more than once, particularly if you are flying.

 

You're right, there is a huge issue when talking about the commercial movement of goods as this proposal would appear to suggest that the UK is just going to abandon it's current import procedures for goods from another country just because the government is in a state of unpreparedness for something it achieved 31 months ago. That's project fact.

 

Of course the online registration system for the new unicorns paperwork doesn't exist yet and the people who would check the huge volume of the online paperwork, which doesn't exist yet, haven't been employed yet, but other than that it's a sterling plan.

 

Taking back control or completely out of control?

Your first sentence is of course self-contradictory. And I doubt that the sort of screening you refer to, which is primarily for security reasons, would identify (say) expensive furs or leather goods or designer clothes and many other goods which technically (or legally) have to be declared in the Red Channel.

Most world trade is based on "technical solutions" to customs control, or as you put it "unicorns". Of course it takes time and resources set these things up. More than two months certainly. It is quite right to point that out 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, jake said:

Was something I heard on the radio.

A suggestion from some group of mps I think.

It suggested free access to the UK for EU citizens.

That way getting round the hard border.

I think that was the jist of it.

 

 

 

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure how they can square that with a desire to control or reduce inward migration from EU countries.

 

The problem with the border question is that no matter how passionately a politician says there won't be a hard border, they can't guarantee it without legal instruments that people know what they are and know how they work.  I read what Theresa May said today, and even if you can convince yourself she's as serious and committed as she sounds, the problem is that what she says has no credibility unless it is backed up by something material and real.  Her government has had two years to come up with something to persuade the EU 27 that she could avoid a hard border, and so far only one idea has materialised that will do that.  The PM might well believe that her government can conjure something up in a couple of weeks, but she's a long way short of getting the people she want to negotiate with to believe the same thing.

[Ulysses]