Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Cade]

UKIP leader writes to the Queen, telling her to suspend Parliament until Brexit.

Also tells her that the Maastricht Treaty was an act of treason.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Cade

[JAYEL]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

And go back on everything she agreed to under her red lines? 

 

Why agree anything with her?!

Erm no

 

same deal but no back stop 

 

It is the only way to deal with the corrupt EU

[JAYEL]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

Terrifying. 

For a Remoaner 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, JAYEL said:

Erm no

 

same deal but no back stop 

 

It is the only way to deal with the corrupt EU

UK PM insists on solution for NI - which delivers the Backstop. She supports motion to go back to EU to renegotiate the backstop that took years to negotiate , which she originally accepted.  She has no other suggestion/proposal . But EU is corrupt. Makes you wonder why she ever bothered with negotiations. 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

For a Remoaner 

Whatever mate. I was looking forward to a different perspective on WTO rules but it seems you're not going to debate it and I have better things to do than read smart arse comments.  

[JAYEL]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

UK PM insists on solution for NI - which delivers the Backstop. She supports motion to go back to EU to renegotiate the backstop that took years to negotiate , which she originally accepted.  She has no other suggestion/proposal . But EU is corrupt. Makes you wonder why she ever bothered with negotiations. 

If she reads JKB I just gave her a solution ?

[JAYEL]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Whatever mate. I was looking forward to a different perspective on WTO rules but it seems you're not going to debate it and I have better things to do than read smart arse comments.  

WTO only comes into effect if no deal is reached

 

That should get the EU moving

[Cade]

We've reached a deal with the EU

 

It's not the EU's fault if the UK then wants to instantly change it to something different.

 

Perhaps the UK should have agreed on the deal it wanted to made with itself BEFORE actually making the deal with the EU?

We're a global laughing stock.

[Thunderstruck]

36 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Good luck.  It's obviously not working for Mayhem. 

 

That’s what happens when you throw away the trump card. 

 

 

[The Brow]

Genuine question - Why is this ****ing backstop the absolute centre of anything to do with brexit? Eire is a different country to NI. Lets not pretend a trade tarrif or border will suddenly have the IRA bombing shopping centres in Manchester again. 

[Cade]

Because the UK, Ireland and by extension, the EU are legally bound to uphold the Good Friday Agreement, which everybody agrees relies on a frictionless border.

[coconut doug]

 

 

19 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I'm still not wholly convinced the White Helmets are ISIS and I'm a bit lost on your Uzbek and Khmer Rouge points. I agree on the Saudis though.

There can be little doubt that the White Helmets who are the recipients of huge quantities of UK aid money were originally Al Nusra who were a proscribed terrorist organisation that are now officially affiliated to ISIS. Why don't you check it out?

 

In Ubekistan our Labour government's ethical foreign policy delivered up prisoners for torture. Some of them won subsequent court cases and compensation from HMG. Their decision to torture Belhaj had wider implications, why dont you check it out?

 

Can I ask, has Britain done any good at all in your view? Do you think the soft power shown pre-Brexit in banning cluster munitions, combating FGM or the work taken in promotion of girls education in places it's not a norm? I mean these were efforts of Miliband and Hague as Foreign Secretaries. As was Hague's efforts in the Iran deal. No good in that? 

Even if these were achievements they are not much to show for years of effort and tens of Billions of pounds and are massively outweighed by the negatives perpetrated on the defenceless poor. How many FGMs have been prevented? How do you check that? How is the Iran deal going? How widespread and how effective is the education of girls.

It's all very knee-jerk in your alignment of views, I.e. pro-whoever or whatever happens. Just trying to bottom it out.

There is nothing kneejerk about my opinions on these matters. I have watched our aid budget being abused all my life usually to the detriment of it's so-called recipients. At one time India would not accept any aid at all believing it to be more damaging than helpful. Look at the archives of all the papers and you will see countless abuses going back many years from the present day. We are now giving more to charities and other NGO's where their mates and failed politiciancs are paid exhorbitant salaries preside over and sometimes paricipate in sexual abuse. Maybe it's a price they have to pay for their education, such as it is. It's a bit like the BBC really, Jobs for the toffs subsidised by the taxpayer. We use the poor world for geting rid of medecines and technology we no longer require and often use their people as guinea pigs for new products. Go chek it out? Despite following this for years i have yet to be convinced that the UK has made any significant contribution despite spending huge sums.

 

Really? Surely if this was the case it would be national news? 

Not only is UK aid "a simple facilitator for private businesses to get into third world markets", it is congratulated for doing so. That's because it's government policy.  https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/news/97821/theresa-may-uk-foreign-aid-policy-should-unashamedly-benefit

 

I mean I think using aid to further business interests is a breach of UN Development goals. 

 

[Francis Albert]

27 minutes ago, The Brow said:

Genuine question - Why is this ****ing backstop the absolute centre of anything to do with brexit? Eire is a different country to NI. Lets not pretend a trade tarrif or border will suddenly have the IRA bombing shopping centres in Manchester again. 

Unfortunately the threat of IRA bombing is exactly what makes the border such a big issue. It will start in Northern Ireland (in a small way it perhaps has already done so) but as before it may spread. If not successful.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Cade said:

Because the UK, Ireland and by extension, the EU are legally bound to uphold the Good Friday Agreement, which everybody agrees relies on a frictionless border.

There is (to repeat boringly ) nothing in the Good Friday Agreement that obligates a frictionless border.

Why not read it? Or at least the BBC's summary of it linked above in this thread? And then tell us where the GFA obligates a frictionless border?

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

There is (to repeat boringly ) nothing in the Good Friday Agreement that obligates a frictionless border.

Why not read it? Or at least the BBC's summary of it linked above in this thread? And then tell us where the GFA obligates a frictionless border?

I thought the idea of having a customs check at a few of the crossings, I think there are hundreds, for goods and leaving the rest open already been put forward? 

[Cade]

Good Friday agreement guarantees the same rights to NI citizens and Irish citizens.

Anybody born in NI can choose to view themselves as British or Irish and may hold either passport, or both.

They also have the right to freely choose where to live.

Border controls would mean that NI and Irish citizens would have different rights, which is why a hard border breaches the GFA.

Which is why Brexit is almost impossible unless NI is given some sort of special customs status with the EU, which the DUP refuse to even consider.

Or unless some sort of moonbeams and unicorns technological solution magically appears in the next 57 days.

 

[sairyinthat]

3 hours ago, JAYEL said:

May should tell the Eu to cancel the backstop

 

Then Tell them you have 1 year to come up with proper deal or we leave on WTO rules

Just set the Humphrey's on them if they fancy tough talking.They will find May is a sweetheart compared to them.

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

Why try and be smart?? The vast majority of laws affecting Scotland are passed at westminster.

 

I don't think they are. 

 

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

After independence, the vast majority of laws affecting Scotland will be passed at Holyrood. Whether an independent Scotland stays, leaves or rejoins the E U will be up to the people of Scotland

 

It's the logical conclusion of the best decisions for Scotland are made by Scots. So why not cut out anyone else? 

 

There's nothing wrong with independence. The arguments employed treat people like children though when you go down the road of Scots will make better decisions for other Scots because they're Scots.

 

We're living with the repercussions of some decisions made by Scots at Westminster and Holyrood which weren't great. But to apply your argument should mean they are better than those made by other people who are not Scots.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, JAYEL said:

Erm no

 

same deal but no back stop 

 

It is the only way to deal with the corrupt EU

 

No it's not. UK govt agreed the back stop after creating it and proposing it to solve the issue over the Irish border. So we are reneging on something our government asked for.

 

The leaders of the EU 27 should rightly say to May go and jump.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Barack said:

Ftfy.

 

I'd argue, the USA are still Top of The Pops, currently. Thanks to him his party.

 

What, like the UEFA kingpins of laughing stockery, but not quite got what it takes to win on the biggest stage of all?

[JAYEL]

35 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

No it's not. UK govt agreed the back stop after creating it and proposing it to solve the issue over the Irish border. So we are reneging on something our government asked for.

 

The leaders of the EU 27 should rightly say to May go and jump.

Then that’s tough luck then

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, The Brow said:

Why is this ****ing backstop the absolute centre of anything to do with brexit?

 

Because the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government and the EU to ensure that the border stays open, and after much deliberation the backstop was devised as the means to deliver their commitment.

 

Make no mistake about it.  Political stability in Northern Ireland depends on a border that people can pretend doesn't exist. 

 

This is a good opportunity to post a link to a piece by Dearbhail McDonald of the Irish Independent Media Group which gives some insight into what things were like for people who lived in the shadow of the old ways.

 

The backstop isn't just about trade

 

"The Good Friday agreement allows people to identify as Irish, British or both. We’re being forced, once again, to choose sides."

[Ulysses]

10 minutes ago, Barack said:

I'd say we're somewhere between Lichtenstein & France, in the buffoonery stakes.

 

The Liechtenstein national anthem is pretty cool, don't you think?

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

22 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Because the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government and the EU to ensure that the border stays open, and after much deliberation the backstop was devised as the means to deliver their commitment.

 

Make no mistake about it.  Political stability in Northern Ireland depends on a border that people can pretend doesn't exist. 

 

This is a good opportunity to post a link to a piece by Dearbhail McDonald of the Irish Independent Media Group which gives some insight into what things were like for people who lived in the shadow of the old ways.

 

The backstop isn't just about trade

 

"The Good Friday agreement allows people to identify as Irish, British or both. We’re being forced, once again, to choose sides."

Who was it devised by? I remember you posting that it was devised by the EU because the UK was not able to devise its own solution. So I assume you will disabuse those who claim it was a UK invention.

[Francis Albert]

No they unfortunately agreed to an EU proposal (the backstop). 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

32 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Because the British government gave a commitment to the Irish government and the EU to ensure that the border stays open, and after much deliberation the backstop was devised as the means to deliver their commitment.

 

Make no mistake about it.  Political stability in Northern Ireland depends on a border that people can pretend doesn't exist. 

 

This is a good opportunity to post a link to a piece by Dearbhail McDonald of the Irish Independent Media Group which gives some insight into what things were like for people who lived in the shadow of the old ways.

 

The backstop isn't just about trade

 

"The Good Friday agreement allows people to identify as Irish, British or both. We’re being forced, once again, to choose sides."

More on a border that the bombers and gunmen are prepared to accept doesn't exist. Perhaps what you mean by "people"? For all the fine words that is in reality what it amounts to.

Certainly nothing about the Good Friday Agreement precludes a border and border controls.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Francis Albert

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, JAYEL said:

Then that’s tough luck then

 

To use the tiresome buying a house analogy. This is like signing missives in which you've asked the seller to remove the damp in the loft and after they've done it paying to rescind the contract to buy...

 

 

...It's literally a colossal shambles. Unforgivable really. The government are spineless and for some reason MPs are ignoring the future relationship which is amenable. Want Norway+? Withhold consent till she changes the future deal papers.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Good Friday agreement guarantees the same rights to NI citizens and Irish citizens.

Anybody born in NI can choose to view themselves as British or Irish and may hold either passport, or both.

They also have the right to freely choose where to live.

Border controls would mean that NI and Irish citizens would have different rights, which is why a hard border breaches the GFA.

Which is why Brexit is almost impossible unless NI is given some sort of special customs status with the EU, which the DUP refuse to even consider.

Or unless some sort of moonbeams and unicorns technological solution magically appears in the next 57 days.

 

That really is nonsense. Unless you can (s no one on here yet has) point to a term of the GFA that says that.

The GFA certainly says the people of Northern Ireland can choose to be UK or Irish citizens, But it certainly doesn't guarantee that they can choose to be subject to UK or Irish law. So if the UK (or for that matter)the ROI (as the ROI will be obliged to do if there is a no-deal BrexiT) chooses to introduces customs controls on the border, they have no right to over-rule those.

A hard border is a very bad idea but it does not breach the terms of the GFA.

 

[JAYEL]

28 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

To use the tiresome buying a house analogy. This is like signing missives in which you've asked the seller to remove the damp in the loft and after they've done it paying to rescind the contract to buy...

 

 

...It's literally a colossal shambles. Unforgivable really. The government are spineless and for some reason MPs are ignoring the future relationship which is amenable. Want Norway+? Withhold consent till she changes the future deal papers.

 

We have to deal with the now

 

The country voted leave

 

Its the only deal on the table and the EU has to give us what we want or it’s No deal

 

The Leave / Remain over vote is over

[luckydug]

19 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

 

We have to deal with the now

 

The country voted leave

 

Its the only deal on the table and the EU has to give us what we want or it’s No deal

 

The Leave / Remain over vote is over

Sounds simple ! 

[JamboX2]

19 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

 

We have to deal with the now

 

The country voted leave

 

Its the only deal on the table and the EU has to give us what we want or it’s No deal

 

The Leave / Remain over vote is over

 

Agree. We voted to leave and are leaving. 

 

Disagree on the have to give us what we want. The EU 27 are committed to their red lines. And are standing by them.

 

It is our PM who is in bad faith by reneging on a deal her red lines created. May and her government has totally failed to take the people and her MPs with her.

 

By far she is the worst PM in 50 years. Honestly terrible. This u-turn on her own deal was a terrible move and culmination of 2 years of not involving parliament in forming a deal. 

[XB52]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I don't think they are. 

 

 

It's the logical conclusion of the best decisions for Scotland are made by Scots. So why not cut out anyone else? 

 

There's nothing wrong with independence. The arguments employed treat people like children though when you go down the road of Scots will make better decisions for other Scots because they're Scots.

 

We're living with the repercussions of some decisions made by Scots at Westminster and Holyrood which weren't great. But to apply your argument should mean they are better than those made by other people who are not Scots.

The people of Scotland will make laws for Scotland. Take your racist undertones and stick them where The sun don't shine. As per the first referendum, everyone who has chosen to live in Scotland will decide what is best for Scotland

[JAYEL]

2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Agree. We voted to leave and are leaving. 

 

Disagree on the have to give us what we want. The EU 27 are committed to their red lines. And are standing by them.

 

It is our PM who is in bad faith by reneging on a deal her red lines created. May and her government has totally failed to take the people and her MPs with her.

 

By far she is the worst PM in 50 years. Honestly terrible. This u-turn on her own deal was a terrible move and culmination of 2 years of not involving parliament in forming a deal. 

Involving the Labour Party would have meant not really leaving

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Because the UK, Ireland and by extension, the EU are legally bound to uphold the Good Friday Agreement, which everybody agrees relies on a frictionless border.

 

Except the trolls, the backwoodsmen and the bigots. 

 

 

5 hours ago, jake said:

Do you enjoy brexit?

Serious question.

 

I think Brexit needs to happen.  The UK needs to be out of the EU, and the rest of the EU needs the UK to be gone.

 

There are ways and means to make it happen in a way that limits the damage to the UK and to its neighbours and partners.  I'm as certain as I can be that a majority of British people would like that to happen.  I'm also as sure as I can be that for a lot of people living in one corner of the UK it simply needs to happen.

 

But it's not happening.  Instead of it happening, all we're getting is a mess, caused entirely by the failure of the British government to act in the best interests of the country and the British people.  It is a disgraceful abdication of responsibility and a failure of the political system.

 

And why is that happening?  Because the people who lead the country are also the people who lead the Conservative Party - and they are acting to save their own party and save their own political skins.

 

It's also unfortunate that Brexit has allowed xenophobia towards Europeans and bigotry towards my nationality in particular to become a bit more prominent.  Most of that is social media guff and the spouting of people whose bigotry isn't that surprising, so maybe it's best not taken too seriously.  But some of it is coming from unexpected places, and for me at least some of it is just a wee bit close to home.  Given the difficult shared history Ireland and the United Kingdom have, and the remarkable progress we've made (or thought we'd made) in the last 20-25 years, that is  both disappointing and uncomfortable.

 

But c'est la vie, and people have to muddle through, because there's no other way to manage things.  And while we're muddling through sometimes the things people say make us laugh - well they make me laugh at any rate.  And however little I enjoy Brexit, I do enjoy a good laugh.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Ulysses

[Francis Albert]

Are the first chinks appearing in the armour of the so far remarakable and impressive unity of the EU, with the Polish PM and CSU leaders in Germany calling for the EU to be a bit more flexible, Coincidence that the CSU is the main party in Bavaria, home of BMW for which the UK is its second biggest foreign market?

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Who was it devised by? I remember you posting that it was devised by the EU because the UK was not able to devise its own solution. So I assume you will disabuse those who claim it was a UK invention.

It was a UK invention. 

[Francis Albert]

I don't really get involved in social media but in the real world (and on here if that counts) but most of the vitriol I have seen towards the Irish has not been directed at the Irish in the ROI or those who identify as Irish in the North but at those UK citizens in the north who identify as British. While the absence of a border between the latter and a foreign country is sacrosanct  it is deemed outrageously obstructive  for the latter to reject the idea of a border between their part of the UK and the rest of the UK. It doesn't seem an altogether unreasonable objection to me.

It is incidentally a bit of an odd construct that British citizens living in the UK should be granted the right to be British in a treaty with a foreign government. But the British in the north have gone along with that.

[ri Alban]

16 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Are the first chinks appearing in the armour of the so far remarakable and impressive unity of the EU, with the Polish PM and CSU leaders in Germany calling for the EU to be a bit more flexible, Coincidence that the CSU is the main party in Bavaria, home of BMW for which the UK is its second biggest foreign market?

Maybe the EU will be flexible and renegotiate as you ask. They might be flexible on Gibraltar too.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

It was a UK invention. 

I remember the EU being widely praised for coming up with a solution (the backstop with the internal UK border) when the UK was deemed to be unable to do so.

Bu history and facts seem to be very loose concepts on this whole subject.

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't really get involved in social media but in the real world (and on here if that counts) but most of the vitriol I have seen towards the Irish has not been directed at the Irish in the ROI or those who identify as Irish in the North but at those UK citizens in the north who identify as British. While the absence of a border between the latter and a foreign country is sacrosanct  it is deemed outrageously obstructive  for the latter to reject the idea of a border between their part of the UK and the rest of the UK. It doesn't seem an altogether unreasonable objection to me.

It is incidentally a bit of an odd construct that British citizens living in the UK should be granted the right to be British in a treaty with a foreign government. But the British in the north have gone along with that.

They're not British tho. None of them.

[ri Alban]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

I remember the EU being widely praised for coming up with a solution (the backstop with the internal UK border) when the UK was deemed to be unable to do so.

Bu history and facts seem to be very loose concepts on this whole subject.

Just in your perception.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, ri Alban said:

They're not British tho. None of them.

They are according to the GFA. As agreed by the UK, the ROI, the political leaders of NI including Sinn Fein, the EU, the UN, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

I remember the EU being widely praised for coming up with a solution (the backstop with the internal UK border) when the UK was deemed to be unable to do so.

Bu history and facts seem to be very loose concepts on this whole subject.

Brexit would have been a breeze if the Tories had not used it for political gain. Now it's hostile and hopefully it destroys this vile mob once and for all. Tories having the brass neck to criticise JC and Labour over Venezuela, while it sits shoulder to shoulder with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

They are according to the GFA. As agreed by the UK, the ROI, the political leaders of NI including Sinn Fein, the EU, the UN, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

The same mob who agree on no hard border. But hey... Technicalities :shouldershrug:

[JudyJudyJudy]

Question time last night was yet again full of the Brexit mob.  Jesus is there anyone in England who voted to remain ? You wouldnt think so judging by the audience each week or judging by how they are chosen. Particularly vile and xenophobic comments from nutters in the audience.  There really seems to be an appetite for a No deal despite all the negatives about this. It also shows what a different county Scotland is compared to England. Hence Independence is Needed.  Itll be interesting to see who is in the audience next week as its in Motherwell.  Im betting it'll be Brexit top heavy.  Good on the Labour guy challenging that Tory bint about Venezuela.  The same bint who gladly accepted hospitality from Saudi Arabia.  A vile regime. 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Question time last night was yet again full of the Brexit mob.  Jesus is there anyone in England who voted to remain ? You wouldnt think so judging by the audience each week or judging by how they are chosen. Particularly vile and xenophobic comments from nutters in the audience.  There really seems to be an appetite for a No deal despite all the negatives about this. It also shows what a different county Scotland is compared to England. Hence Independence is Needed.  Itll be interesting to see who is in the audience next week as its in Motherwell.  Im betting it'll be Brexit top heavy.  Good on the Labour guy challenging that Tory bint about Venezuela.  The same bint who gladly accepted hospitality from Saudi Arabia.  A vile regime. 

 

No Deal does seem to be the most popular option. Though not a majority.

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

15 hours ago, The Brow said:

Genuine question - Why is this ****ing backstop the absolute centre of anything to do with brexit? Eire is a different country to NI. Lets not pretend a trade tarrif or border will suddenly have the IRA bombing shopping centres in Manchester again. 

 

 

One argument is this is what EU wanted all along.

[ri Alban]

12 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Question time last night was yet again full of the Brexit mob.  Jesus is there anyone in England who voted to remain ? You wouldnt think so judging by the audience each week or judging by how they are chosen. Particularly vile and xenophobic comments from nutters in the audience.  There really seems to be an appetite for a No deal despite all the negatives about this. It also shows what a different county Scotland is compared to England. Hence Independence is Needed.  Itll be interesting to see who is in the audience next week as its in Motherwell.  Im betting it'll be Brexit top heavy.  Good on the Labour guy challenging that Tory bint about Venezuela.  The same bint who gladly accepted hospitality from Saudi Arabia.  A vile regime. 

They should just move it along the road to Larkhall.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

They should just move it along the road to Larkhall.

LOL

[sairyinthat]

15 hours ago, luckydug said:

Sounds simple ! 

And it is even today Mercel is warning France about an exodus from the union states Five starting with the Nederlands and Pen is promising a vote if he wins the French general election and it could accelerate if Britain does not get a better settlement.Strange the reports were mainly the carnage that was going to be visiting us seems to have vanished.