Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

James Dyson, arch Brexiteer, is relocating Dyson head office, tax base and main factory to Singapore.

 

And has said the decision was nothing to do with Brexit. 

[Costanza]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Away ye go!! 17 odd million people are "nihilistic imbeciles" because you don't agree with thier views and opinions???

A wee bit strong that!! 

You're confusing voting to leave the EU with a no deal. 

I understand people wanting to leave the EU and don't consider them imbeciles, even if I disagreed.

I don't believe all 17m voted to leave wanting that to be on a no deal exit.

My insult is at anyone who has researched what a no deal entails and still wants it.

[Mikey1874]

24 minutes ago, Cade said:

James Dyson, arch Brexiteer, is relocating Dyson head office, tax base and main factory to Singapore.

 

 

Just after Singapore agreed to new trade deal with the EU 

[The Mighty Thor]

18 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

And has said the decision was nothing to do with Brexit. 

There's been a number of businesses in the last year or so relocating from the UK. All nothing to do with Brexit of course. A Brexit dividend if you will?

[Mikey1874]

22 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

And has said the decision was nothing to do with Brexit. 

 

A bit of background. And Singapore has a good trade deal with China. Free trade works. Kind of. 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Mikey1874

[sairyinthat]

55 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's certainly going to be interesting in the next GE to see who suffers through thier stand on Brexit. 

See it with the heap of de selections in the varying constituencies.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Mine was due to economic reasons and free movement 

 

If you are referring to trade and the possibility of border friction and it's massive importance?  Many statements from leading business people suggest these "frictions" are a minor issue. And international trade in to the EU backs this up. If the border frictions are so significant how on earth do countries from all around the world export in to the EU without being in the EU?

 

Remember we'll still have access to EU workers but controlled as opposed to uncontrolled (free movement). And we'd also have better access to workers outwith the EU especially Commonwealth members who the EU discriminate against.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

47 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

If you are referring to trade and the possibility of border friction and it's massive importance?  Many statements from leading business people suggest these "frictions" are a minor issue. And international trade in to the EU backs this up. If the border frictions are so significant how on earth do countries from all around the world export in to the EU without being in the EU?

 

Remember we'll still have access to EU workers but controlled as opposed to uncontrolled (free movement). And we'd also have better access to workers outwith the EU especially Commonwealth members who the EU discriminate against.

 

 

Im referring to the right to work and live in any Euro country. Its been so beneficial . Lets face it one of the main reasons Brexiters wanted Brexit was based on immigration and the " fear" of Johnny Foreigner yet happen to settle in Spain etc as " ex pats".  Its clear that we need immigration but i do agree some controls have been necessary. However the arguments that services such as GP surgeries NHS were overstretched was a red herring.. The Gov could easily create more housing , health services etc for the inlux. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

16 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Im referring to the right to work and live in any Euro country. Its been so beneficial . Lets face it one of the main reasons Brexiters wanted Brexit was based on immigration and the " fear" of Johnny Foreigner yet happen to settle in Spain etc as " ex pats".  Its clear that we need immigration but i do agree some controls have been necessary. However the arguments that services such as GP surgeries NHS were overstretched was a red herring.. The Gov could easily create more housing , health services etc for the inlux. 

 

Really? That just sounds like remain mantra without anything to substantiate it. In fact your whole post seems to be  remain soundbites. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There's been a number of businesses in the last year or so relocating from the UK. All nothing to do with Brexit of course. A Brexit dividend if you will?

 

 

[JAYEL]

Free movement of people is for the Corporate big boys

 

Unlimited labour and they control the wage limits

 

If you don’t like the minimum wage then it’s tough luck because they can get someone that will

 

No need for pay rises when others will do it for minimum wage or less

 

Free movement of slaves

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

Free movement of people is for the Corporate big boys

 

Unlimited labour and they control the wage limits

 

If you don’t like the minimum wage then it’s tough luck because they can get someone that will

 

No need for pay rises when others will do it for minimum wage or less

 

Free movement of slaves

 

What James Dyson wants

 

Funny how rich people want others to be poor

 

 

[Cade]

P&O re-registering all of their cross-channel ferries under the Cypriot flag.

 

Sony moving European HQ from London to Amsterdam.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

So we're effectively still going to be in EU in one form or another it seems. 

[The Mighty Thor]

18 minutes ago, Cade said:

P&O re-registering all of their cross-channel ferries under the Cypriot flag.

 

Sony moving European HQ from London to Amsterdam.

 

 

Nothing to do with Brexit likesy.

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, JAYEL said:

I think May might call one before 29th

 

No point in losing 2 meaningful votes and before all the amendments are voted through

 

4 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's certainly going to be interesting in the next GE to see who suffers through thier stand on Brexit. 

You do remember the G.E that May lost after the EUref, right?

[AlimOzturk]

I thought she only had three days to present her plan B after the vote on her original plan and it would be voted on? Or have is missed something?

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, JAYEL said:

Free movement of people is for the Corporate big boys

 

Unlimited labour and they control the wage limits

 

If you don’t like the minimum wage then it’s tough luck because they can get someone that will

 

No need for pay rises when others will do it for minimum wage or less

 

Free movement of slaves

Yet you don't mind free movement of Scots , English, Welsh and Irish. Why is that great but not with continent.

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

 

You do remember the G.E that May lost after the EUref, right?

No, because the tories won that election, that's why Teresa May lives in number 10.

[SwindonJambo]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

 

You do remember the G.E that May lost after the EUref, right?

 

She didn’t lose it. She lost her majority but remained the biggest party. If she lost it then someone else must have won it. Labour certainly gained ground, but still lost it even though Corbyn behaved like he’d won it. Very Hibs. And I dislike ,both and despair of our poor electoral choices available.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

No, because the tories won that election, that's why Teresa May lives in number 10.

No, she lost her majority, that's why the loyalists are running number 10.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

She didn’t lose it. She lost her majority but remained the biggest party. If she lost it then someone else must have won it. Labour certainly gained ground, but still lost it even though Corbyn behaved like he’d won it. Very Hibs. And I dislike ,both and despair of our poor electoral choices available.

Nobody won, or she wouldn't need the flat earthers.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

No, she lost her majority, that's why the loyalists are running number 10.

The Tories won, it might stick in your craw but they're in no10 bespite the numbers! 

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

She didn’t lose it. She lost her majority but remained the biggest party. If she lost it then someone else must have won it. Labour certainly gained ground, but still lost it even though Corbyn behaved like he’d won it. Very Hibs. And I dislike ,both and despair of our poor electoral choices available.

Exactly, on all points. 

[JAYEL]

15 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Yet you don't mind free movement of Scots , English, Welsh and Irish. Why is that great but not with continent.

Eh ?

[Toggie88]

31 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

She didn’t lose it. She lost her majority but remained the biggest party. If she lost it then someone else must have won it. Labour certainly gained ground, but still lost it even though Corbyn behaved like he’d won it. Very Hibs. And I dislike ,both and despair of our poor electoral choices available.

 

Don't see me agreeing a lot with SwindonJambo on political threads, but May did indeed 'win' the election in the traditional since. 

 

However, if we're talking within the context at the time, it's hard to argue she 'won'. Her definition and the collective Tory party's definition of 'winning' that election was to win a bigger majority, it certainly was when she made the decision to call the election. She gambled, while she didn't lose everything, she came out a lot worse off.  In the larger context of it all, the real 'winners' of the 2017 election was the DUP. 

 

Which is hilarious in itself, since May had said previously that a Labour government supported by the SNP, would be 'the biggest constitutional crisis since the abdication'. Not only did she do that exact thing with the DUP, proving her 'Labour/SNP' argument as complete scaremongering, she has caused a bigger constitutional crisis than even the abdication. 

 

This is why I somewhat disagree with the 'Maybot' analogy. She's not a robot that has a fixed position and is unwavering. She'll change policy or view quicker than anyone if she believes it to be in her interest. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Toggie88

[jake]

6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I did not say it was not a major issue.

Though strangely the signatories of the Belfast Agreement despite the ongoing lies about the GFA failed to mention it.

Have you read it? It is surprisingly short and easy to read but it suits some not to know its contents.

Even our expert on all things Irish (and part time spokesman  for the EU) goes along with the lie.

? 

 

Lovely stuff FA it has to be said.

 

[Toggie88]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

P&O re-registering all of their cross-channel ferries under the Cypriot flag.

 

Sony moving European HQ from London to Amsterdam.

 

 

 

Dyson moving to Singapore announced today as well... 

 

I wonder how many of these HQs Edinburgh could've possibly hoovered up had we voted the other way in 2014. 

[Victorian]

9 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

If there was a second referendum and remain won but with a lesser turn out, say 5 million less, would that be a convincing mandate? 

 

Yes.   Choosing not to vote is exactly the same democratic choice as choosing to vote.    There is no difference.   

 

Not being bothered and a 'not voting' protest as well.    Those are personal choices.     

[Toggie88]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

Yes.   Choosing not to vote is exactly the same democratic choice as choosing to vote.    There is no difference.   

 

Not being bothered and a 'not voting' protest as well.    Those are personal choices.     

 

Arguably more ethical than spoiling a ballot as well. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Toggie88 said:

 

Arguably more ethical than spoiling a ballot as well. 

 

Maybe.   But I would say a spoiled paper is a legitimate choice,  equal to any other choice.    

[Toggie88]

41 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Yet you don't mind free movement of Scots , English, Welsh and Irish. Why is that great but not with continent.

 

I don't think the majority who voted for Brexit on immigration grounds are that bothered about Europeans either. Every interview I've seen that presses a Leave voter on why they voted on the basis of immigration is because "the muslims". 

 

While I'm all for multiculturalism, there is space within the mainstream political dialogue to discuss immigration numbers and the perceived erosion of what is seen as 'British/English values'. It would need to be done sensitively and with kid gloves on all sides, but it's possible. We've never had that debate though and it's manifested itself through a referendum on something which has no direct impact on it. 

 

These people were sold a lie. Brexit, in whatever form will not deliver what they think it will deliver. The only thing it is almost certain will do is leave them worse off. 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I don't think the majority who voted for Brexit on immigration grounds are that bothered about Europeans either. Every interview I've seen that presses a Leave voter on why they voted on the basis of immigration is because "the muslims". 

 

While I'm all for multiculturalism, there is space within the mainstream political dialogue to discuss immigration numbers and the perceived erosion of what is seen as 'British/English values'. It would need to be done sensitively and with kid gloves on all sides, but it's possible. We've never had that debate though and it's manifested itself through a referendum on something which has no direct impact on it. 

 

These people were sold a lie. Brexit, in whatever form will not deliver what they think it will deliver. The only thing it is almost certain will do is leave them worse off. 

 

Exactly,     and for many millions,      the regained sovereignty of legislature will pass them by without one iota of notice.    

[Cade]

56 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

I thought she only had three days to present her plan B after the vote on her original plan and it would be voted on? Or have is missed something?

She did.

She presented Plan B yesterday.

Plan B is..........Plan A again.

Seriously.

[SwindonJambo]

4 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

Dyson moving to Singapore announced today as well... 

 

I wonder how many of these HQs Edinburgh could've possibly hoovered up had we voted the other way in 2014. 

 

Ironic choice of the word Hoover when talking about Dyson!

 

The Dyson move isn’t a biggie. 2 Senior Staff are moving there. It’s a brass plates job. The whole Head Office and U.K. Manufacturing Operation is remaining in Malmsbury, Wiltshire. Singapore has a good trade deal with China and that’s why he’s off there. 20 years ago he wanted the U.K. to join the Euro and was very vocal about it! He’s a businessman and supports whatever actions he thinks are best for his business.

 

The Cypriot flag thing’s a load of bollocks. Loads of vessels on the high seas register under a flag of convenience - usually Liberia.

 

In the run up to the 2014 Indyref, IIRC Scottish Banks threatened to move to London but that too would have been a brass plates job in order to retain the protection of the Bank of England. Scottish based staff would probably have been fine.

 

I was a remainer btw but I’m trying to be even handed.

[Toggie88]

7 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Maybe.   But I would say a spoiled paper is a legitimate choice,  equal to any other choice.    

 

I agree - it is a complete legitimate choice. 

 

I'm not saying not voting is more ethical but I could see an argument for it.

 

- environmental impact (driving to the polling station v sitting in your house)

- poll workers time (still has to be counted by someone, then verified)

- contributing to lines at the polls (potential for voters who intend to cast a ballot being unable)

[SwindonJambo]

6 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I don't think the majority who voted for Brexit on immigration grounds are that bothered about Europeans either. Every interview I've seen that presses a Leave voter on why they voted on the basis of immigration is because "the muslims". 

 

While I'm all for multiculturalism, there is space within the mainstream political dialogue to discuss immigration numbers and the perceived erosion of what is seen as 'British/English values'. It would need to be done sensitively and with kid gloves on all sides, but it's possible. We've never had that debate though and it's manifested itself through a referendum on something which has no direct impact on it. 

 

These people were sold a lie. Brexit, in whatever form will not deliver what they think it will deliver. The only thing it is almost certain will do is leave them worse off. 

 

And Mr Toggie, I’m  going to respond in kind and say that I agree with everything you’ve written here. Huge xenophobic and racist undertones amongst a chunk of the Brexit side (though by no means most of it). We certainly have issues with certain groups of immigrants ghettoising themselves and not integrating well but voting Brexit won’t stop it.

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

.........  trying to be even handed.

And that's the flaw in your argument!!! 

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

And that's the flaw in your argument!!! 

 

 

[Toggie88]

5 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Ironic choice of the word Hoover when talking about Dyson!

 

The Dyson move isn’t a biggie. 2 Senior Staff are moving there. It’s a brass plates job. The whole Head Office and U.K. Manufacturing Operation is remaining in Malmsbury, Wiltshire. Singapore has a good trade deal with China and that’s why he’s off there. 20 years ago he wanted the U.K. to join the Euro and was very vocal about it! He’s a businessman and supports whatever actions he thinks are best for his business.

 

The Cypriot flag thing’s a load of bollocks. Loads of vessels on the high seas register under a flag of convenience - usually Liberia.

 

In the run up to the 2014 Indyref, IIRC Scottish Banks threatened to move to London but that too would have been a brass plates job in order to retain the protection of the Bank of England. Scottish based staff would probably have been fine.

 

I was a remainer btw but I’m trying to be even handed.

 

Ha - I didn't even think about the pun. 

 

I agree it isn't a biggie and you're certainly right about the Scottish Banks during the 2014 referendum. Although I'm not sure jobs would even be involved, it was a case of changing the main address on a few forms - will likely be the case with this move as well. 

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

I agree - it is a complete legitimate choice. 

 

I'm not saying not voting is more ethical but I could see an argument for it.

 

- environmental impact (driving to the polling station v sitting in your house)

- poll workers time (still has to be counted by someone, then verified)

- contributing to lines at the polls (potential for voters who intend to cast a ballot being unable)

 

It's an interesting point,  no doubt discussed by many a student of political history.    

 

But to the people who believe they would be making some kind of point of protest at an unwanted ref2 (unwanted by them)... individuals do not get to decide for themselves when democratic events occur,   and do not occur.    They occur as a result of acts of parliament,   sometimes as a result of a party manifesto.     Individuals cannot opt out of a democratic event... it will occur without their individual participation and it's consequences will result and affect those who did and did not participate.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Victorian

[Francis Albert]

22 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Exactly,     and for many millions,      the regained sovereignty of legislature will pass them by without one iota of notice.    

And a loss of "freedom of movement" would pass 99% and more of us by. 

The whole debate is conducted at a megaphone level of idiocy.

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

And a loss of "freedom of movement" would pass 99% and more of us by. 

The whole debate is conducted at a megaphone level of idiocy.

 

Yes indeed.     Surely a highly compelling argument for the belief that the entire exercise is bogus, illegitimate and discredited.     Argued and campaigned on a series of false premises and ill conceived perceptions.     An argument for a wholesale rethink.

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's an interesting point,  no doubt discussed by many a student of political history.    

 

But to the people who believe they would be making some kind of point of protest at an unwanted ref2 (unwanted by them)... individuals do not get to decide for themselves when democratic events occur,   and do not occur.    They occur as a result of acts of parliament,   sometimes as a result of a party manifesto.     Individuals cannot opt out of a democratic event... it will occur without their individual participation and it's consequences will result and affect those who did and did not participate.

 

 

Agreed. But remainers on this thread have argued that the fact only 37% or so voted to leave is significant in an attempt to reverse the leave vote, suggesting that those who did not vote are deemed to favour remain. 

I assume the same test would apply if a second referendum was won by remain and the abstainers would the count as effectively leavers.

We could be at this forever.

 

 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Agreed. But remainers on this thread have argued that the fact only 37% or so voted to leave is significant in an attempt to reverse the leave vote, suggesting that those who did not vote are deemed to favour remain. 

I assume the same test would apply if a second referendum was won by remain and the abstainers would the count as effectively leavers.

We could be at this forever.

 

 

You can only realistically determine a result from those who cast a valid vote.    You can't poll those who chose not to cast one.      All you could do would be to set a pre-determined lower limit of turnout to validate a result,    but than in itself is highly undemocratic.    

[Toggie88]

12 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

And Mr Toggie, I’m  going to respond in kind and say that I agree with everything you’ve written here. Huge xenophobic and racist undertones amongst a chunk of the Brexit side (though by no means most of it). We certainly have issues with certain groups of immigrants ghettoising themselves and not integrating well but voting Brexit won’t stop it.

 

I agree. The real problem though is the lack of economic development and opportunities in a lot of these areas. Racial tensions rarely boil over when everyone is doing well. It's not only an issue for the working class, but the lack of growth in the middle class which contributes towards it. 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Yes indeed.     Surely a highly compelling argument for the belief that the entire exercise is bogus, illegitimate and discredited.     Argued and campaigned on a series of false premises and ill conceived perceptions.     An argument for a wholesale rethink.

Agreed again. I'd just add that the bogus nature of the exercise only seemed to be noticed after the wrong answer was given!

Edited January 22, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Victorian]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

Agreed again. I'd just add that the bogus nature of the exercise only seemed to be noticed after the wrong answer ws given!

 

I suppose 

 

But remainers would argue that the lion's share of bogus claims / promises and <truths came from the leave campaign.    Would a similar claim of illegitimacy of exercise have come from leavers,  in the event of a remain vote?     What would be the basis of such a claim?     I doubt it.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

But remainers would argue that the lion's share of bogus claims / promises and <truths came from the leave campaign.   

 

They'd be right, but the leave campaign won, and that's politics.  Re-opening the Leave/Remain question for another vote wouldn't be right.  It is undemocratic to deny the majority who want to leave the right to leave.  However, it is also undemocratic to ignore the wishes of the very large numbers who wish to remain.  The best way - probably the only way - to take their wishes on board in a democratic way that also respects the majority vote is to construct a very close relationship between the UK and the EU, characterised by considerable freedom of movement of goods, services, capital and labour between them.  If the UK has to take on more control over freedom of movement of people into the country, then that is almost certain to be at the price of some limitations on the UK's access to the EU's marketplace for goods and services.  That's tricky to achieve, but not impossible, as long as there is a willingness to do it. 

[JackLadd]

I wonder if May okayed an ayeref2 Nippy would direct her Westminster feebles to vote to avoid a hard brexit? Need some kind of carrot anyway.