glynnlondon Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Why would Europe want us involved when half the countries sole intention is to block everything and **** it up. What a mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: That's an interesting point. Imagine if the EU said that although technically and legally you are out as far as we are concerned all this carry on as normal until the outcome of your general election (which would only be days away). The Tories would then have no choice but to stand on a no deal brexit manifesto as it would be clear a deal couldn't be reached and suddenly they are up against it. They would still win though as remain will be split amongst all the other parties. They simply cannot do that. Once Article 50 has expired, we are out under international law. There is absolutely no mechanism to retroactively extend the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 43 minutes ago, redjambo said: You're normally an excellent poster. Not with this one though. Hah well, just calling it like I've seen it so far. It was a common theme with everyone I've talked to that wasn't just some rabid unionist loon. They were scared of the economic impact, of the EU impact, of going it alone, whatever. A little boldness five years ago and think where we could all be, instead of looking down the barrel of . . . this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Hah well, just calling it like I've seen it so far. It was a common theme with everyone I've talked to that wasn't just some rabid unionist loon. They were scared of the economic impact, of the EU impact, of going it alone, whatever. A little boldness five years ago and think where we could all be, instead of looking down the barrel of . . . this. Perfectly legitimate stance tbh. There will obviously be a financial impact, quite possibly negative, and a lot people aren't in the position to absorb that. Can't hold it against people for being scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, AlphonseCapone said: Perfectly legitimate stance tbh. There will obviously be a financial impact, quite possibly negative, and a lot people aren't in the position to absorb that. Can't hold it against people for being scared. I do hold it against them but for different, personal reasons. I don't mean to imply it's not legitimate in and of itself. On the other hand, their lack of action and gravitas has now led to this, much worse, likely outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: Hah well, just calling it like I've seen it so far. It was a common theme with everyone I've talked to that wasn't just some rabid unionist loon. They were scared of the economic impact, of the EU impact, of going it alone, whatever. A little boldness five years ago and think where we could all be, instead of looking down the barrel of . . . this. Who knows what we could have been looking down the barrel at instead? Life isn't either totally roses or shit - there's a huge area in-between called reality - we don't know how it would have been if we had voted Yes. My point however is that making a rational decision that the status quo trumps the unknowns of any alternative future decided upon is not the same as being a fearty, and that dismissing the No vote as being mostly due to people being afraid is rather rank. But, in any case, the past is in the past. We have to make decisions based on now, and I suspect that others like me, when looking at the apparent disconnect between English and Scottish political opinions as well as the fact that we now have unknowns in both main future lines we face, will be more confident, once the arguments are all in of course, that the unknowns relating to independence are worth facing when balanced against the unknowns of being part of an increasingly isolationist, uncaring and xenophobic United Kingdom outside the EU and liable to be cosying up really nicely to the States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Suspend parliament ? Nats will be loving this cluster**** ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, redjambo said: dismissing the No vote as being mostly due to people being afraid is rather rank. Pretty much agree. However, I specifically referred to the several particular people's reasons for voting no, that I spoke to. Short of you interviewing them yourself, not sure how else to get that across. I imagine a big enough chunk to swing the vote will have been like them--a mere 5% is all it would have taken. It doesn't mean the other whatever percent even apply to this. The subject was why there hasn't been a bigger swing in Yes/No sentiment. That clear now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said: Perfectly legitimate stance tbh. There will obviously be a financial impact, quite possibly negative, and a lot people aren't in the position to absorb that. Can't hold it against people for being scared. I personally wasn't scared by Scottish Independence at all. I merely enjoyed being a citizen of Scotland, the UK and the EU, and didn't see what advantages independence would bring. Now that I cannot be all three of these, my opinions have changed. If I can only have two, Scotland and the EU will do me nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: Pretty much agree. However, I specifically referred to the several particular people's reasons for voting no, that I spoke to. Short of you interviewing them yourself, not sure how else to get that across. I imagine a big enough chunk to swing the vote will have been like them--a mere 5% is all it would have taken. It doesn't mean the other whatever percent even apply to this. The subject was why there hasn't been a bigger swing in Yes/No sentiment. That clear now? It's an old argument though, akin to the folk on here who say that JKB is not representative of reality and that all or almost all the people they speak to want Levein gone. It is implying that reality out there reflects their sampling. But that's not why I reacted against what you said, it's because I actually got annoyed during the referendum when the nationalists trotted out the "They're all afraid!" line, which supporters of independence did regularly. I felt it disrespected the decisions that No folk were making, and I'm sure that specious opinions like that did the independence cause no good. If the nationalist supporters had done more to actually persuade me of the benefits of independence, and had spent less time flag-waving and slagging off the UK and those thinking of voting No, then perhaps I would have actually voted Yes the last time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, redjambo said: It's an old argument though, akin to the folk on here who say that JKB is not representative of reality and that all or almost all the people they speak to want Levein gone. It is implying that reality out there reflects their sampling. But that's not why I reacted against what you said, it's because I actually got annoyed during the referendum when the nationalists trotted out the "They're all afraid!" line, which supporters of independence did regularly. I felt it disrespected the decisions that No folk were making, and I'm sure that specious opinions like that did the independence cause no good. If the nationalist supporters had done more to actually persuade me of the benefits of independence, and had spent less time flag-waving and slagging off the UK and those thinking of voting No, then perhaps I would have actually voted Yes the last time around. Mate for the last time it's not a ****ing argument. It was the words out of people's literal mouths. They were scared. They said so. I can appreciate you getting annoyed at people broadbrushing that, but this is direct experience with the words people said I'm talking about. Edited August 28, 2019 by Justin Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said: Go on Boris let the will of he people be heard and down with the traitors that try and block democracy. We voted to remain in the Uk and we will. We the British people voted to leave the EU now let’s see it happen. Oh and Tick Tick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, redjambo said: It's an old argument though, akin to the folk on here who say that JKB is not representative of reality and that all or almost all the people they speak to want Levein gone. It is implying that reality out there reflects their sampling. But that's not why I reacted against what you said, it's because I actually got annoyed during the referendum when the nationalists trotted out the "They're all afraid!" line, which supporters of independence did regularly. I felt it disrespected the decisions that No folk were making, and I'm sure that specious opinions like that did the independence cause no good. If the nationalist supporters had done more to actually persuade me of the benefits of independence, and had spent less time flag-waving and slagging off the UK and those thinking of voting No, then perhaps I would have actually voted Yes the last time around. All good, now? 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 22 minutes ago, Boab said: Suspend parliament ? Nats will be loving this cluster**** ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 38 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Hah well, just calling it like I've seen it so far. It was a common theme with everyone I've talked to that wasn't just some rabid unionist loon. They were scared of the economic impact, of the EU impact, of going it alone, whatever. A little boldness five years ago and think where we could all be, instead of looking down the barrel of . . . this. Cautious is the word you're looking for. Jye Zed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah O Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 What. A . Mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, ri Alban said: All good, now? 👍 I'm certainly far keener on independence given the events of the last few years. However, my dear ri, that's no thanks to you whose playground pro-independence taunts to folk on here actually helped dissuade me from voting Yes last time (I know, very puerile of me, but you did my head in a lot). However, I've seen some reasonable posts from you in the last few days, even congratulating a Tory MP and discussing English cricket without having a go at England or somehow trying to turn yet another thread into a pro-independence one, so there's hope for us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Cautious is the word you're looking for. Jye Zed. You see? Unless you're being sarcastic, spot on, ri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: I'm certainly far keener on independence given the events of the last few years. However, my dear ri, that's no thanks to you whose playground pro-independence taunts to folk on here actually helped dissuade me from voting Yes last time (I know, very puerile of me, but you did my head in a lot). However, I've seen some reasonable posts from you in the last few days, even congratulating a Tory MP and discussing English cricket without having a go at England or somehow trying to turn yet another thread into a pro-independence one, so there's hope for us all. 👍 I don't mean it, but sometimes I react to certain posters. But I'm trying. Very trying, some would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, ri Alban said: 👍 I don't mean it, but sometimes I react to certain posters. But I'm trying. Very trying, some would say. Don't worry, if/when we get independence, you'll be allowed to celebrate (and indeed gloat) as much as you want given that you haven't swayed from being solidly pro-independence, while I'll be sitting there, far more sober than you, I imagine, thinking "Ah right, that's that, now let's see what happens next. Here's hoping we can pull this off and make a success of it". Whatever happens, interesting times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Don't worry, if/when we get independence, you'll be allowed to celebrate (and indeed gloat) as much as you want given that you haven't swayed from being solidly pro-independence, while I'll be sitting there, far more sober than you, I imagine, thinking "Ah right, that's that, now let's see what happens next. Here's hoping we can pull this off and make a success of it". Whatever happens, interesting times. Que Sera Sera springs to mind, giving the events at Westminster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said: Go on Boris let the will of he people be heard and down with the traitors that try and block democracy. We voted to remain in the Uk and we will. We the British people voted to leave the EU now let’s see it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, redjambo said: It's an old argument though, akin to the folk on here who say that JKB is not representative of reality and that all or almost all the people they speak to want Levein gone. It is implying that reality out there reflects their sampling. But that's not why I reacted against what you said, it's because I actually got annoyed during the referendum when the nationalists trotted out the "They're all afraid!" line, which supporters of independence did regularly. I felt it disrespected the decisions that No folk were making, and I'm sure that specious opinions like that did the independence cause no good. If the nationalist supporters had done more to actually persuade me of the benefits of independence, and had spent less time flag-waving and slagging off the UK and those thinking of voting No, then perhaps I would have actually voted Yes the last time around. I’m not so sure about the scare tactics used in the last Indy ref as being disrespectful. I think it was very real. I believe that it is not in the UK’s national interest to lose Scotland and the tactics used to prevent it were evidence of that. I actually don’t think Brexit was preferred either and only came about because spineless Cameron caved in to pressure from right wing MPs in his party to agree to have a referendum. He should be behind bars because of that as far as i’m concerned. He gambled it wouldn’t happen and got a bloody nose. The people who forced him down that road are now using tactics akin to dictatorship to get it through. It’s scandalous and if there was another Indy ref tomorrow, i’d vote yes. Problem is, they’ll never agree to it. National Interests will prevent it. Or, if it had to be given, i’d expect an even bigger campaign of fear to prevent it. I don’t think that’s a slur on No voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 hour ago, redjambo said: I personally wasn't scared by Scottish Independence at all. I merely enjoyed being a citizen of Scotland, the UK and the EU, and didn't see what advantages independence would bring. Now that I cannot be all three of these, my opinions have changed. If I can only have two, Scotland and the EU will do me nicely. That’s where I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 54 minutes ago, ri Alban said: 👍 I don't mean it, but sometimes I react to certain posters. But I'm trying. Very trying, some would say. Trying not to be trying? It's good. The independence movement needs passionate people like yourself, but who channel that into real talk instead of (rightfully and justifiably, I might add--but damagingly) raging and railing against "yoons" and biased reporting and everything else. The case makes itself, I think, but it has to be communicated sensibly, calmly, rationally, or else you shoot yourself in the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Well done Boris. Circumvented all these remoaners at a stroke. Action at last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Well done Boris. Circumvented all these remoaners at a stroke. Action at last. Fan of outright dictatorship then, are we? Back to Cromwell, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Well done Boris. Circumvented all these remoaners at a stroke. Action at last. Does it not niggle at you in the slightest that, in the parliamentary democracy in which we live, Boris has undertaken steps to undermine parliament's ability to make the government accountable for its actions (which is what being a parliamentary democracy is all about). Is there no part of you that realises that this lack of accountability is one of the main accusations that has been thrown at the EU? Edited August 28, 2019 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Does it not niggle at you in the slightest that, in the parliamentary democracy in which we live, Boris has undertaken steps to undermine parliament's ability to make the government accountable for its actions (which is what being a parliamentary democracy is all about). Is there no part of you that realises that this lack of accountability is one of the main accusations that has been thrown at the EU? Rank hypocrisy in getting one's way? Say it ain't so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, Justin Z said: Fan of outright dictatorship then, are we? Back to Cromwell, is it? I feel remoaner pain for sure. You totally effed it up spurning May time again, including the lying Nipster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, JackLadd said: I feel remoaner pain for sure. You totally effed it up spurning May time again, including the lying Nipster. I can't vote here, nor could I at the time of the referendum. Why are you directing this at me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: Does it not niggle at you in the slightest that, in the parliamentary democracy in which we live, Boris has undertaken steps to undermine parliament's ability to make the government accountable for its actions (which is what being a parliamentary democracy is all about). Is there no part of you that realises that this lack of accountability is one of the main accusations that has been thrown at the EU? Brexiters want their prize - even if it's literally a poisoned chalice, they want that prize. They want to be able to say "we won", they don't care. We all know it was never about "democracy" in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, redjambo said: Does it not niggle at you in the slightest that, in the parliamentary democracy in which we live, Boris has undertaken steps to undermine parliament's ability to make the government accountable for its actions (which is what being a parliamentary democracy is all about). Is there no part of you that realises that this lack of accountability is one of the main accusations that has been thrown at the EU? Doesn't it bother you we voted leave in a UK referendum in 2016 and we're still in it three years on? I would have preferred the deal May had on the table but Corbyn and Sturgeon are bent on their own destructive agendas. I hope a deal is still done btw, but this can't go on. Sturgeon and Corbyn are 100% to blame for this, not Johnson. Johnson is full entitled to do this legally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, JackLadd said: I feel remoaner pain for sure. You totally effed it up spurning May time again, including the lying Nipster. I suspect that you don't quite realise the extent of what Boris is attempting here and how it counters the parliamentary democracy under which the UK has operated for a very long time now. Take a step back. We will be leaving the EU anyway, and it may even be on a no-deal basis. Be satisfied that this is the case because it matches what you want, but just imagine for a moment that you don't have an opinion on this particular subject. A UK Prime Minster is intentionally proroguing Parliament in order to stifle debate about what he is trying to do and thus to reduce his accountability to Parliament. Are you happy that this is the case? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Doesn't it bother you we voted leave in a UK referendum in 2016 and we're still in it three years on? I would have preferred the deal May had on the table but Corbyn and Sturgeon are bent on their own destructive agendas. I hope a deal is still done btw, but this can't go on. Sturgeon and Corbyn are 100% to blame for this, not Johnson. Johnson is full entitled to do this legally. No. It was an advisory ref that did not bind any govt to implement its outcome. There is still a criminal investigation into the Leave campaign - which does bother me. The Leave campaign made various promises as part of the ref - none of which are being delivered. That bothers me too. Leave campaign said pre ref we would leave as part of a managed departure - no one said how long it was expected to take. How long did you think it would take ? PS - we are crashing out on no deal - so that's not that Leave promised either. That bothers me. So , BJ intends to shut down parliament to deliver a form of brexit that no one voted for - that bothers me a lot. PPS As a remain voter, happy for UK to leave in accordance with promises made by Leave/Johnson/Gove et al , in a managed way, staying in the single market (which Leave also promised). Edited August 28, 2019 by annushorribilis III Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Johnson is full entitled to do this legally. He may be. Many who know more about British law and constitution than you or I would disagree. But either way, now, in the words of David Gauke, a Tory former Secretary of State for May, consider this: “Put to one side your views of a no-deal Brexit. Imagine that Jeremy Corbyn is PM, pursuing a policy that is unpopular in parliament and in the country. At a crucial moment he finds a way to evade parliamentary scrutiny for several weeks.” That feeling of discomfort you're having at the thought of this scenario, if you're being honest with yourself, is why you're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Doesn't it bother you we voted leave in a UK referendum in 2016 and we're still in it three years on? I would have preferred the deal May had on the table but Corbyn and Sturgeon are bent on their own destructive agendas. I hope a deal is still done btw, but this can't go on. Sturgeon and Corbyn are 100% to blame for this, not Johnson. Johnson is full entitled to do this legally. It should go on until we get an exit deal that is acceptable to all sides. It is always far better to take your time and do things properly than to rush things. Life should hopefully have taught you that, no? An action being legal and being the "right thing to do" are not necessarily equivalent - saying that Boris is entitled to do something legally, if you don't mind me saying, is the same type of weaselly talk that Boris is using in claiming that the prorogation has nothing to do with Brexit. He hasn't even got the balls to admit it (and that's almost more worrying that the prorogation itself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Doesn't it bother you we voted leave in a UK referendum in 2016 and we're still in it three years on? I would have preferred the deal May had on the table but Corbyn and Sturgeon are bent on their own destructive agendas. I hope a deal is still done btw, but this can't go on. Sturgeon and Corbyn are 100% to blame for this, not Johnson. Johnson is full entitled to do this legally. I’m sure a shit load of Tories voted against May but she still kept trying, and still kept being defeated. Wee Nicky and Jezzers are to blame though. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) This feels appropriate. Thomas More: Let me draw your attention to a fact — I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. . . . And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law! William Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law! More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that! More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! — Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons, 1960 Edited August 28, 2019 by Justin Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobboM Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said: Brexiters want their prize - even if it's literally a poisoned chalice, they want that prize. They want to be able to say "we won", they don't care. We all know it was never about "democracy" in the first place. Well it wasn't about the £350m a week It wasn't about economic prosperity And it wasn't about re-establishing parliamentary sovereignty We're assured it wasn't about race WTF was it actually about? Surely not just the sweet, sweet taste of chlorinated chicken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, redjambo said: I suspect that you don't quite realise the extent of what Boris is attempting here and how it counters the parliamentary democracy under which the UK has operated for a very long time now. Take a step back. We will be leaving the EU anyway, and it may even be on a no-deal basis. Be satisfied that this is the case because it matches what you want, but just imagine for a moment that you don't have an opinion on this particular subject. A UK Prime Minster is intentionally proroguing Parliament in order to stifle debate about what he is trying to do and thus to reduce his accountability to Parliament. Are you happy that this is the case? Seriously? As I said, I'd have preferred a deal but Sturgeon and Corbyn thumbed their noses at it time and again. They are now crying big salt tears about something they engineered. I'd 100% prefer no deal to staying in the EU, but I'm excited about the UK being free again 46 years on from what was supposed to be an economic and not political union. SNP can get excited also as they can stamp their wee Ayeref2 feet all the louder, and who knows maybe it will engender enough pain for them to create Scotland as an EU satellite vassal state with a hugely reduced budget. Edited August 28, 2019 by JackLadd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, RobboM said: Well it wasn't about the £350m a week It wasn't about economic prosperity And it wasn't about re-establishing parliamentary sovereignty We're assured it wasn't about race WTF was it actually about? Surely not just the sweet, sweet taste of chlorinated chicken? Don't forget the hormone injected beef - and the trade deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Justin Z said: This feels appropriate. Thomas More: Let me draw your attention to a fact — I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. . . . And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law! William Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law! More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that! More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! — Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons, 1960 One of my favourite films. I saw this quote on Twitter last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Cade said: Bercow is livid. He'll now let Parliament do anything. Then he is a disgrace to his office and should resign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, JackLadd said: As I said, I'd have preferred a deal but Sturgeon and Corbyn thumbed their noses at it time and again. They are now crying big salt tears about something they engineered. I'd 100% prefer no deal to staying in the EU, but I'm excited about the UK being free again 46 years on from what was supposed to be an economic and not political union. SNP can get excited also as they can scare stamp their wee Ayeref2 feet all the louder, and who knows maybe it will engender enough pain for them to create Scotland as an EU satellite vassal state with a hugely reduced budget. And you are obviously entitled to your opinions, although of course I disagree with them. However, you're shirking the question about which you're talking and on which you commented - are you happy that Boris is going to prorogue Parliament in order to reduce Parliament's ability to hold him and the Government to account? Remember that it is more than allowable to hold all the views you expressed above but still say "No. What Boris is wanting to do is not the right way to go about things and undermines the long-held system of government in this country. I want Brexit to be enacted but I want it to be done properly". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Boab said: I’m sure a shit load of Tories voted against May but she still kept trying, and still kept being defeated. Wee Nicky and Jezzers are to blame though. 👍 They are to blame. I think the last attempt by May was quite narrowly defeated. They are opportunistically entrenched and both FOS. the back stop objection especially from Sturgeon was laughable. You take that to it's conclusion and it means there should be no similar back stop between Scotland and England should Scotland leave the Union and join the EU, a hard border ffs. 80% of Scotland's trade subject to a hard border. She is a hypocrite. I also laughed out loud to her objecting to the EU Common Fishery Policy being retained in the deal. She was all in on the CFP and does a 180 when it suits her. Edited August 28, 2019 by JackLadd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said: Then he is a disgrace to his office and should resign. Because he's livid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, redjambo said: Because he's livid? Because he is supposed to be nonpartisan and he clearly isn't. I.e. Using obscure protocols to allow MPs to become the executive for a day and pass primary legislation. But Boris is the one causing a constitutional crisis for requesting a new Queen's speech. 🤔 Edited August 28, 2019 by dobmisterdobster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who_put_the_ball_in... Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) Imagine being a EU remoaning Nat and wakening up everyday to the news you are leaving the EU and will still be British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 Edited August 28, 2019 by Who_put_the_ball_in... Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said: Because he is supposed to be nonpartisan and he clearly isn't. I.e. Using obscure protocols to allow MPs to become the executive for a day and primary legislation. But Boris is the one causing a constitutional crisis for requesting a new Queen's speech. 🤔 Weird how quiet this line of argument got when he approved May's third vote. You know, once she actually followed the correct, precedentially and constitutionally set, procedure, and didn't just keep putting the same thing in front of the house over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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