Unknown user Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said: Exactly pretty sure that’s not an Irish passport Correct. It's a UK one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who_put_the_ball_in... Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Cade said: The entire point is that we can't "just get back to normal" A no deal brexit will destroy the economy for the forseeable future. Edited August 28, 2019 by Who_put_the_ball_in... Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said: Quite. Once the polls consistently show 60% plus in favour - by which I mean, over a period of at least six months to a year - go for it. But they haven't. Astonishingly few polls have shown any majority for it at all. That's the way I see it, although I think a baseline of 55% might be fine. We've already had one "once-in-a-generation" referendum on the issue, we might get away with a second, particularly because of the change of circumstances and the fact that Scotland is currently being dragged out of the EU against its will by the UK, but if we balls that up too, it *will* be another generation before we get one. Let's get it right this time. However, in saying that, two of the reasons that the Brexit campaign succeeded were Corbyn being head of the Labour party and the huge refugee crisis from Syria and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. These were both time-specific events, a perfect storm. So, if a series of circumstances were to arise like that where likelihood of a successful independence referendum was great, then Thunderbirds should be go. It's a risk though, and the time is not yet right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, redjambo said: At what exactly? What do you think she should have done or should do? Resigned all her MPs and Msps and fought for independence on the re-election of MPs to Wm. Save people another referendum 👍 Edited August 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Resigned all her MPs and Msps and fought for independence on the re-election of MPs to Wm. I don't quite get that (the bit after resigning all the MPs and MSPs). What exactly would she do after that? Declare UDI? Organise a unilateral referendum? Just trying to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, redjambo said: Yeah, we've been waiting far too long. Who cares if we don't know what's on the other side and who bothers about spending time to make arrangements to minimise the damage when we jump, let's just do it and jump off that cliff! Who's with me?! It will be a hoot! And then we can just get on with life... Good point three years hasn't been anything like long enough for these eejits to come up with any alternative/solutions to the whole mess. Maybe we should just keep doing what we have been for the last few years. What do we think have a look at it all again in another three or four years. Or maybe cut the head off the boil now, see how bad it's looking and you never know maybe in three or four years it will be a good distance down the road to being healed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: I don't quite get that (the bit after resigning all the MPs and MSPs). What exactly would she do after that? Declare UDI? Organise a unilateral referendum? Just trying to understand. A majority of MPs at WM should be enough to trigger negotiations for independence. Or Indyref2 Remember, this election would be on a manifesto of independence. So it would be up to the unionists to have a plan to counter it. Edited August 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, jamb0_1874 said: Good point three years hasn't been anything like long enough for these eejits to come up with any alternative/solutions to the whole mess. Maybe we should just keep doing what we have been for the last few years. What do we think have a look at it all again in another three or four years. Or maybe cut the head off the boil now, see how bad it's looking and you never know maybe in three or four years it will be a good distance down the road to being healed... We did feck all to properly debate this issue before a few months ago. The whole of Parliament, acting as a focus for the various stakeholders, should have been involved from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, ri Alban said: A majority of MPs at WM should be enough to trigger negotiations for independence. Or Indyref2 Remember, this election would be on a manifesto of independence. So it would be up to the unionists to have a plan to counter it. Which election? They haven't called one yet. Wouldn't it be a bit premature to resign all MPs and MSPs now? After all, they still have work to do to represent their constituents. Also, who says that the Government would have to listen, especially if the polls are not consistently pro-independence? They certainly aren't going to listen at the moment - there's far too much going on. The thinking behind the next independence referendum has to be joined up, which means, among other things, that we have to be sure that it is there for the taking. In other words: Hold!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 So why is Ruth on the verge of resigning? Scottish Tories are likely to be decimated again at the next election. And this is her perfect storm. She's a soundbite media professional, with media friends that don't take her to task. Ruth's preferred options are:- 1. Safe English counties Tory seat which Brexit has effed up. 2. Opposition leader in Holyrood. 3. Back bench MSP 4. First Minister 5. Having a surgery with her constituents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leginten Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 I was against the idea of Indyref2 so soon after 2014 despite the fact that there had clearly been a change in our status since the EU referendum. But now? **** this. Indyref2 tomorrow and let’s get the **** out of this shitehouse of a state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, redjambo said: We did feck all to properly debate this issue before a few months ago. The whole of Parliament, acting as a focus for the various stakeholders, should have been involved from the start. Exactly, sadly however everybody is so firmly focused on their own agendas that nobody can have a proper debate on the whole issue and no matter how much time you give it I can't see it changing, so it was always going to end with something like this happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, leginten said: I was against the idea of Indyref2 so soon after 2014 despite the fact that there had clearly been a change in our status since the EU referendum. But now? **** this. Indyref2 tomorrow and let’s get the **** out of this shitehouse of a state. Hmmm out of the EU and the UK. That's going to be an interesting road to travel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 10 minutes ago, redjambo said: Which election? They haven't called one yet. Wouldn't it be a bit premature to resign all MPs and MSPs now? After all, they still have work to do to represent their constituents. Also, who says that the Government would have to listen, especially if the polls are not consistently pro-independence? They certainly aren't going to listen at the moment - there's far too much going on. The thinking behind the next independence referendum has to be joined up, which means, among other things, that we have to be sure that it is there for the taking. In other words: Hold!!! A get ye. But she needs to channel Samuel Adams. She needs to step up to the plate here and show some statesmanship quality, that will bring Scotland with her. Scotland needs no permission to dissolve the union and that must be radiated to the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: A get ye. But she needs to channel Samuel Adams. She needs to step up to the plate here and show some statesmanship quality, that will bring Scotland with her. Scotland needs no permission to dissolve the union and that must be radiated to the people. Interesting - what's the legal situation? Does the Act of Union contain a secession clause? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, redjambo said: Interesting - what's the legal situation? Does the Act of Union contain a secession clause? Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and Westminster rubber-stamped it last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said: Hmmm out of the EU and the UK. That's going to be an interesting road to travel Interesting indeed. However, we're not going to be able to do it any other way in the end, no matter when we do it. We'll have to leave the UK then apply to the EU for membership, if so decided by the people - it won't be seamless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, ri Alban said: Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and Westminster rubber-stamped it last year. Can you point me to a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, ri Alban said: Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and Westminster rubber-stamped it last year. Can you give more details, please? I admit I am firmly unconvinced of this being able to hold any water legally. Edit: And I have every reason to want it to hold water, as a no-deal Brexit is likely to kill any chances I have of getting work and getting to stay here. An independent Scotland would be a much different story. Edited August 28, 2019 by Justin Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, redjambo said: Can you point me to a link? It's in Hansen bud. Under Scottish sovereignty. It's a long debate, but parliament passed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Can you give more details, please? I admit I am firmly unconvinced of this being able to hold any water legally. Claim of right, 2018 Edited August 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Personally I'm weary of referenda. What happened to putting a policy on a manifesto and standing for election on that mandate? Constantly putting things to the people is an abdication of responsibility. The SNP arguably have a mandate to declare independence based on the huge majority of Westminster MPs that they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Claim of rights, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989 Edited August 28, 2019 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Claim of rights, 2018 I'm reading the parliamentary debate. Can you give me something more than that to go on? This is a long debate, and I need actual legal principles here. @redjambo: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2018-07-04a.406.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Martin_T said: Personally I'm weary of referenda. What happened to putting a policy on a manifesto and standing for election on that mandate? Constantly putting things to the people is an abdication of responsibility. The SNP arguably have a mandate to declare independence based on the huge majority of Westminster MPs that they have. I disagree. In the first past the post system we use for electing MPs, the percentage vote does not necessarily reflect the percentage of MPs. For something as important as this, a referendum is the best way to go. Something the Swiss get right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, redjambo said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989 04/07/2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Justin Z said: I'm reading the parliamentary debate. Can you give me something more than that to go on? This is a long debate, and I need actual legal principles here. @redjambo: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2018-07-04a.406.0 I'm not very good at links, bud. But in short, Wm voted it through, that the best way of governance lies with the consent of the Scottish people. This was always the way, but it wasn't legal until then. Edited August 28, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Justin Z said: I'm reading the parliamentary debate. Can you give me something more than that to go on? This is a long debate, and I need actual legal principles here. @redjambo: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2018-07-04a.406.0 Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Claim of right, 2018 For what it's worth, I'm already running into a legal problem here with what I *think* you're trying to say, but you really still need to explain what you think the claim of right debate in Westminster was or did. "That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain" -- Union with England Act, 1707, sec III "That all Laws and Statutes in either Kingdom so far as they are contrary to or inconsistent with the Terms of these Articles or any of them shall from and after the Union cease and become void and shall be so declared to be by the respective Parliaments of the said Kingdoms" -- Union with England Act, 1707, sec XXV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, ri Alban said: I'm not very good at links, bud. But I. Short, Wm voted it through, that the best way of governance lies with the consent of the Scottish people. This was always the way, but it wasn't legal until then. It's not legal now, according to that Wikipedia page - the Claim of Right was endorsed by Westminster but did not attain legal status as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: For what it's worth, I'm already running into a legal problem here with what I *think* you're trying to say, but you really still need to explain what you think the claim of right debate in Westminster was or did. "That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain" -- Union with England Act, 1707, sec III "That all Laws and Statutes in either Kingdom so far as they are contrary to or inconsistent with the Terms of these Articles or any of them shall from and after the Union cease and become void and shall be so declared to be by the respective Parliaments of the said Kingdoms" -- Union with England Act, 1707, sec XXV Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and wm should not intervene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, ri Alban said: I'm not very good at links, bud. But in short, Wm voted it through, that the best way of governance lies with the consent of the Scottish people. This was always the way, but it wasn't legal until then. 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: It's not legal now, according to that Wikipedia page - the Claim of Right was endorsed by Westminster but did not attain legal status as a result. And even if it were, Westminster can't bind subsequent Parliaments--a fundamental constitutional principle. They could change their mind tomorrow. 2 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and wm should not intervene. You understand I don't disagree on principle. Principle does not matter here, law does. It's a novel legal idea, that there's never been a Scottish tradition of absolute parliamentary sovereignty. I like it, in legal terms, for the ingenuity of it. Without digging deeper, I don't see a way around the two parts of the Union with England Act I just quoted, legally speaking. So my position remains that a UDI would get nowhere and would find no sympathy in neutral, foreign courts either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Also importantly, there is no statute, act, chapter, section, or anything else that puts the principles Westminster endorsed into the actual law. They basically resolved that they agree. It didn't bind them to anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 https://www.strath.ac.uk/media/1newwebsite/departmentsubject/law/documents/studentlawreview/Halliday_SSLR_article_1.6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: And even if it were, Westminster can't bind subsequent Parliaments--a fundamental constitutional principle. They could change their mind tomorrow. You understand I don't disagree on principle. Principle does not matter here, law does. It's a novel legal idea, that there's never been a Scottish tradition of absolute parliamentary sovereignty. I like it, in legal terms, for the ingenuity of it. Without digging deeper, I don't see a way around the two parts of the Union with England Act I just quoted, legally speaking. So my position remains that a UDI would get nowhere and would find no sympathy in neutral, foreign courts either. Fine. This house endorses, is good enough for me. No one should own Scotland, not even the King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Cruyff Turn said: https://www.strath.ac.uk/media/1newwebsite/departmentsubject/law/documents/studentlawreview/Halliday_SSLR_article_1.6.pdf Anything in particular you want me to pay closer attention to in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said: It's the same across the world. Where are the great leaders now? Merkel's on her way out and is unpopular at home in any case. There's no-one else. This is what happens when an entire economic system sends wealth higher and higher and locks out anyone who doesn't inherit it or isn't interested in shafting everyone else for a quick buck. You end up with an entire political class who have nothing in common with ordinary people. Completely agree, Shaun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, ri Alban said: Fine. This house endorses, is good enough for me. No one should own Scotland, not even the King. It's good enough for me too. It's not good enough for any court north or south of the border, nor, would I venture to wager, an independence-majority Scottish Parliament, and for very good legal reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: It's good enough for me too. It's not good enough for any court north or south of the border, nor, would I venture to wager, an independence-majority Scottish Parliament, and for very good legal reason. Depends who's doing the arguing, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, ri Alban said: Depends who's doing the arguing, I suppose. No, that's kind of my point. No matter how good the arguer, what you have put forth is, legally speaking, taking a knife to a gun fight. There is nothing to support anything you want here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) Maybe the wrong time to comment since we're on to Independence. But as long as this Government takes responsibility for the fall out from No Deal and doesn't hold an early general election before that, then what they have done today isn't so bad aside from maximising the time. It's right the new Johnston Government puts forward it's new legislative programme. And he can put forward his new Deal as part of that programme. Edited August 28, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 20 minutes ago, redjambo said: I disagree. In the first past the post system we use for electing MPs, the percentage vote does not necessarily reflect the percentage of MPs. For something as important as this, a referendum is the best way to go. Something the Swiss get right. It's not reflective of the popular vote, but by contrast the decision is in theory being taken by professional people who are elected to make decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, redjambo said: Interesting indeed. However, we're not going to be able to do it any other way in the end, no matter when we do it. We'll have to leave the UK then apply to the EU for membership, if so decided by the people - it won't be seamless. Yeah I get that however getting trade deals will be hard enough nevermind trying to do it when trying to compete against what is left of the UK which has also just left the EU. Maybe letting the dust settle rather than having kneejerk reactions would work best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said: Yeah I get that however getting trade deals will be hard enough nevermind trying to do it when trying to compete against what is left of the UK which has also just left the EU. Maybe letting the dust settle rather than having kneejerk reactions would work best. If you mean regarding Brexit, I am in complete agreement. I suspect that a couple of years of Brexit in action will provide enough of a shitstorm to push the polls sufficiently towards Yes to make another referendum a safer bet. It's not going to be a fun ride though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Martin_T said: It's not reflective of the popular vote, but by contrast the decision is in theory being taken by professional people who are elected to make decisions. I wonder what the result would have been if we had had a referendum in 1707? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: I wonder what the result would have been if we had had a referendum in 1707? Only rich people got to vote then So ta ta Scottish Parliament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: If you mean regarding Brexit, I am in complete agreement. I suspect that a couple of years of Brexit in action will provide enough of a shitstorm to push the polls sufficiently towards Yes to make another referendum a safer bet. It's not going to be a fun ride though. Or they will see, and lived through, what the UK has gone through and don't fancy going through it all again as a small independent nation. You are correct though, either way it's not going to be a fun ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Anything in particular you want me to pay closer attention to in this? Just thought it was worth reading for anyone interested. 👍🏼 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, Cruyff Turn said: Just thought it was worth reading for anyone interested. 👍🏼 Cool. Interesting so far. Thanks for sharing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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