Indy Ref Part Deux

[The Don]

He/she hasn't actually endorsed anything positive from the Yes movement or the current Scottish government.

 

 

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What is there to endorse?

 

Failing Scottish NHS

Failing Scottish education system

Massive social housing shortage

Devolved DWP benefits being put on hold by the SNP for 3 YEARS yes 3 YEARS

No answer to Scottish pensions

No answer or idea as to what currency we'll use

No idea as to the time we will need to recover from Indy and start breaking even.

No answers to where we'll make up for lost revenue for exports between Scotland and rUK ( lost revenue I mean if we're in the EU and independent we'll be subject to tariffs and quotas)

No answer to our fisheries industry being protected.

No answer on how we will fund ourselves given GERS and independent experts have all said had we been independent last year we'd be bankrupt. ?14.8 billion fiscal deficit last year had we not been part of the rUK it would have been a lot worse.

 

Yeah there's certainly a lot to promote.

 

 

 

 

 

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[aussieh]

What is there to endorse?

 

Failing Scottish NHS

Failing Scottish education system

Massive social housing shortage

Devolved DWP benefits being put on hold by the SNP for 3 YEARS yes 3 YEARS

No answer to Scottish pensions

No answer or idea as to what currency we'll use

No idea as to the time we will need to recover from Indy and start breaking even.

No answers to where we'll make up for lost revenue for exports between Scotland and rUK ( lost revenue I mean if we're in the EU and independent we'll be subject to tariffs and quotas)

No answer to our fisheries industry being protected.

No answer on how we will fund ourselves given GERS and independent experts have all said had we been independent last year we'd be bankrupt. ?14.8 billion fiscal deficit last year had we not been part of the rUK it would have been a lot worse.

 

Yeah there's certainly a lot to promote.

 

 

 

 

 

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Seriously? Have you seen the nick of England and wales from your list. SNP is the only reason we're not totally Fecked.

 

300 years of neglect and you expect the SNP to solve Scotland's problems in 10 years without Indy or full powers. Dream on.

And yes police and education is not what it should be.

[Space Mackerel]

Would it be OK if he just had, for example, a radio talk show? If so, where do you draw the line?

 

Or, are you suggesting that any MP/MSP show devote their full attention to representing their constituents?

He must have some ching habit if he needs all these jobs [emoji23]

 

 

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[The Don]

Rudi that's exactly when the Scottish Parliament wants the indyref when we have the info of the Brexit deal, two year away. Pity the UK won't get a vote on said deal.

 

Stop calling folk bigots because they want Scottish sovereignty, or are you saying Brexit is xenophobic?

 

 

 

Nippy and all that then you moan about me, Christ. Pathetic

 

And you wonder why I resort to teeth bashing, if you voted yes in 2014 I'm a loaf of bread.

Many people that voted for Brexit did so because of racist and xenophobic beliefs.

 

And the SNP wanted an Indy ref next august or following spring. Article 50 has not even been triggered yet and it could take 2 years from then. It's impossible to put a time scale on when we will know what the deal will be. All that can be said is we'll know for sure in 2 years. It would also be foolish and very reckless to expect the U.K. To not only try to negotiate Brexit and keep the country stable but also for them to prepare for another referendum.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Dont bother he would not give a feck if it was two kids living in poverty, such is his Tory out look on fairness.

 

Tory Austerity is a justifiable policy because ALL on benefits are just scroungers..

 

Benefit cuts to the physically handicapped??,nope still not a jot given and he spouts off at the lack of fairness and discrepancies at those engaging in trying to eradicate poverty in children.

 

You can often tell a persons persona by their words but i have no doubt that those that are by nature selfish, self-serving and have the attitude towards life of "its all about me" tend to find it alien to differentiate between real hardship brought on by manipulative political unfairness ,( Tory austerity), and being in that actual hardship.

 

 

You either give a feck or you dont on the topic of the creation of poverty through political polices and this Tory manufactured Austerity is by far the worst attack on the vulnerable yet.

 

Such is human nature that you will follow the party line that most suits your own nature towards actually giving a feck towards those in real hardship.

 

What kind of society is being offered and spun by the present Tory gangsters down south , feather your nest and feck the rest??

 

 

Scots by nature are nothing like the vision and version May and Deeside try to portray, the fact there is only one Tory seat in Scotland at the moment is testimony to this.

 

The massive swings to the SNP up here are a two fingered gesture to the Tories down south.

 

The fact that Labour failed to capture this swing up here is two fold, one is the term "red tories" and two is the hard liner lefty Corbyn.

 

Scots by nature are more socialist but the tories i feel forget one thing though, their Austerity polices are not going unfelt and unnoticed up here.

 

May is playing a very dangerous game by underestimating the Scottish people.

 

She will i feel be the instigator of Scotland gaining Independence just as Cameron tragically underestimated the British peoples decision to leave the EU.

 

Mays steadfast arrogance towards the Scots will be the instigator that brings independence.

Thanks for your description of me. I am an evil Tory even though I don't vote Tory

 

Allow me to reciprocate - You believe crop circles are made by aliens.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Seriously? Have you seen the nick of England and wales from your list. SNP is the only reason we're not totally Fecked.

 

300 years of neglect and you expect the SNP to solve Scotland's problems in 10 years without Indy or full powers. Dream on.

And yes police and education is not what it should be.

They are showing no signs of doing it after successive governments.

 

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[Doogz]

Just say it - Too poor, too wee, too stupid.

 

There is no such deficit mate. Enlighten yourself and look beyond the unionist press.

That phrase again & once again it's a pro-Indy person using it

[Space Mackerel]

What that doesn't paint mate is diehard independence supporters voting leave in order to trigger another referendum. I know it might be 'playing games' but I know of 5 that went down this route. When unionists claim that 30% of SNP independence supporters voted leave, I'd argue that most of them were doing so to further independence.

I actually thought of voting for this reason but the Brexit result was cast iron up here. The only shocking bit was it was every region within Scotland.

 

Saying that, there is a surprising real proper working class vote that doesn't want to be in the EU for various reasons. Win them over and it's a definite win for indy2.

 

 

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[Cruyff Turn]

Population = number of people in a country

 

Electorate = number of people eligible to vote

 

Turnout = number of people who actually vote

 

It would be handy if you familiarised yourself with the above definitions before spouting shite as per your post above and previous ones claiming half of the population supported the SNP/Scottish independence*.

 

*delete as appropriate

So you know for a fact that people voting Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories are all Unionists?

[Arnold Rothstein]

So you know for a fact that people voting Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories are all Unionists?

 

Where did i say that???

[Space Mackerel]

That phrase again & once again it's a pro-Indy person using it

But that's the card that's constantly played by the MSM?

It's effective because people don't get their info from other sources.

 

 

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[Doogz]

What that doesn't paint mate is diehard independence supporters voting leave in order to trigger another referendum. I know it might be 'playing games' but I know of 5 that went down this route. When unionists claim that 30% of SNP independence supporters voted leave, I'd argue that most of them were doing so to further independence.

Voting to try and make things worse for the UK including Scotland to try and get another referendum which they could well lose and leave Scotland in the UK & out of the EU in a worse position - am I supposed to believe these people are putting Scotland first ?

[JamboX2]

Doesn't actually dispute what I said or back up what you said though eh? Deflect away though.

Nor does it account for an electoral system which is utterly unrepresentative.

[Thunderstruck]

He must have some ching habit if he needs all these jobs [emoji23]

 

 

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Salmond may need his numerous extracurricular jobs to pay for his pie habit or his love of a flutter on the gee-gees.

 

Maybe our correspondent from Renfrewshire forgot about the owner of "The Chronicles of the Deer" when he made his comment.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/12144745/Alex-Salmonds-hypocrisy-of-using-firm-to-save-tax.html

 

It's a matter of scale but it's either OK or it is not.

[Cruyff Turn]

Where did i say that???

That's essentially your argument, share of the vote.

[Cruyff Turn]

Nor does it account for an electoral system which is utterly unrepresentative.

Bit like the Union then.

[The Don]

So you know for a fact that people voting Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories are all Unionists?

No they are not, and neither are all the respective politicians. Unlike the SNP the other political parties didn't whip their MP's into voting for something, the SNP have whipped every MP and MSP into voting to remain in the EU even although a lot of very senior SNP MP's and MSP are Eurosceptics and wanted out.

 

The SNP engineered the Brexit referendum in Scotland to suit their own political agenda. I know many Yes voters like myself that want out the EU and many No voters that want to remain. I'm sure that when it comes down to an straight in or out the UK that we'll lose again, a 3rd choice in ballot papers would give a more clearer indication of voters choice and help independence but it won't be allowed. That's Leave the rUK and Leave the EU

 

 

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[Doogz]

But that's the card that's constantly played by the MSM?

It's effective because people don't get their info from other sources.

 

 

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The only people on this thread using that argument are pro-Indy - I'm yet to see a unionist use it

[Cruyff Turn]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/former-wto-chief-independent-scotland-would-have-zero-technical-problems

[aussieh]

Where did i say that???

If you don't vote that's your problem, don't moan about it.

[Arnold Rothstein]

That's essentially your argument, share of the vote.

 

I was merely pointing out that Spacefish frequently interchanges the words population and electorate thus demonstrating he doesn't understand what either mean. 

 

I'm fully aware that independence support doesn't necessarily equate to SNP support and the same for unionist supporters and traditionally unionist parties.

[Arnold Rothstein]

If you don't vote that's your problem, don't moan about it.

 

I agree. Doesn't mean they don't make up part of the electorate though.

[JamboX2]

David Cameron being the prime example.

 

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And any party which advocates them. If the SNP want independence just say "If we have a majority we will negotiate for it" (or if there's an pro-independence majority at Holyrood...

 

Referendums are frankly a nonsense. If we are to be independent we need to say No to them in future. The constitution shoukd be as minimal as the Scotland Act and only dictate how government works.

 

Parliament should be the main decision maker. Referendums are a fraud.

[aussieh]

I agree. Doesn't mean they don't make up part of the electorate though.

But it does, the electorate is the ones who vote. Afterwards its just propaganda.

[JamboX2]

Bit like the Union then.

Mmm no. That's wrong.

 

I'm all for electoral reform (say STV or straight PR) and a new upper house where all 4 nations get say 50 representatives. Equality in that sense.

[Arnold Rothstein]

But it does, the electorate is the ones who vote. Afterwards its just propaganda.

 

Do any yes voters understand what 'electorate' means?

[Space Mackerel]

Salmond may need his numerous extracurricular jobs to pay for his pie habit or his love of a flutter on the gee-gees.

 

Maybe our correspondent from Renfrewshire forgot about the owner of "The Chronicles of the Deer" when he made his comment.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/12144745/Alex-Salmonds-hypocrisy-of-using-firm-to-save-tax.html

 

It's a matter of scale but it's either OK or it is not.

Sounds like he has 2 employments to me.

 

1. As a MP

2. As an author for various magazines.

 

Have you checked he doesn't have an eBay account and is flogging hooky gear too?

 

 

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[Psychedelicropcircle]

Thanks for your description of me. I am an evil Tory even though I don't vote Tory

 

Allow me to reciprocate - You believe crop circles are made by aliens.

Wots this shit about cropcircle's

[Thunderstruck]

Do any yes voters understand what 'electorate' means?

I think it is fair to say that most of the ardent Nats on here do not. Hilariously, one of them didn't (and probably still doesn't) know difference between eligible population, registered electorate and turnout. Throwing "franchise" into the mix is too awful to contemplate.

[Space Mackerel]

Do any yes voters understand what 'electorate' means?

In Scotland it's 16 and over.

 

In the U.K. its 18 and over.

 

 

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[Arnold Rothstein]

In Scotland it's 16 and over.

 

In the U.K. its 18 and over.

 

 

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A+

[Thunderstruck]

Sounds like he has 2 employments to me.

 

1. As a MP

2. As an author for various magazines.

 

Have you checked he doesn't have an eBay account and is flogging hooky gear too?

 

 

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A radio talk show - did you miss that?

 

So, if it's OK for Salmond, is it OK for Osborne? Or, do you have double standards?

[Cruyff Turn]

No they are not, and neither are all the respective politicians. Unlike the SNP the other political parties didn't whip their MP's into voting for something, the SNP have whipped every MP and MSP into voting to remain in the EU even although a lot of very senior SNP MP's and MSP are Eurosceptics and wanted out.

 

The SNP engineered the Brexit referendum in Scotland to suit their own political agenda. I know many Yes voters like myself that want out the EU and many No voters that want to remain. I'm sure that when it comes down to an straight in or out the UK that we'll lose again, a 3rd choice in ballot papers would give a more clearer indication of voters choice and help independence but it won't be allowed. That's Leave the rUK and Leave the EU

 

 

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I agree with you on that.

 

Not every SNP MP/MSP supports being part of the EU, I think we can safely say that is a fact but they will tow the party line. I think some Labour MSP's support Independence but also tow the Party line, although I think some might start to undermine Dugdale on that.

 

I agree on the Referendum question as well, if there is to be one.

 

As I've said before , the SNP are merely a vessel for Scotland to get its Independence. If that is achieved, as far as many people are concerned they would become an Irrelevance.

[Cruyff Turn]

Mmm no. That's wrong.

 

I'm all for electoral reform (say STV or straight PR) and a new upper house where all 4 nations get say 50 representatives. Equality in that sense.

So get rid of the Lord's and have what you suggest instead?

 

Sounds fairer than what is on show at the moment where the MP for Maidenhead can just tell a whole Country to do one.

[Thunderstruck]

In Scotland it's 16 and over.

 

In the U.K. its 18 and over.

 

 

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That's the Electorate?

[Space Mackerel]

A radio talk show - did you miss that?

 

So, if it's OK for Salmond, is it OK for Osborne? Or, do you have double standards?

I made a joke about his "alleged" cocaine habit. Shame you had a bit of a whooosh moment.

Have you actually seen the list of his employers now? It was on Sky News about 7pm detailing it.

 

 

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[aussieh]

Do any yes voters understand what 'electorate' means?

Arnie give it a rest. It's like saying we had 16000 attendance because of season tickets and only 10000 turn up. A bit Celtic and Seville and Rangers and Manchester. We know exactly what electorate means. 49.9% of the Scottish electorate voted SNP in 2015 for WM 15% voted Tory. Yet we get dictated to by Mundell. Can you see the problem there.

[Space Mackerel]

That's the Electorate?

Well ***** in jail dinnae get the vote amongst others.

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

Thoughts on the Tory policy of cutting taxes for the high-earners whilst removing benefits from the disabled/poor?

I have posted many times that I want to see tax increased to pay for improved social justice. Feel free to check numerous previous posts.

 

In part I want to see inheritance tax significantly increased as well as income tax.

[Doogz]

I'm sorry but it's apt. Why would every other country that has become independent never regret their choice whilst we remain the basket-case?

 

We're a downtrodden country, brought up tolerating national cringe, always at the mercy of England who only want this union to exist for political reasons and to ensure prime-ministerial legacies. Who wants to be the prime minister that lost Scotland?

 

I love Scotland, and I'm proud of everything that is associated with it. Sorry to be apply an overarching analysis but if you're a staunch unionist, then you have no desire to see Scotland succeed.

You love Scotland and you're proud of everything that is associated with it ... a country you describe as downtrodden etc. How does that work ?

[Arnold Rothstein]

Arnie give it a rest. It's like saying we had 16000 attendance because of season tickets and only 10000 turn up. A bit Celtic and Seville and Rangers and Manchester. We know exactly what electorate means. 49.9% of the Scottish electorate voted SNP in 2015 for WM 15% voted Tory. Yet we get dictated to by Mundell. Can you see the problem there.

 

Odd analogy. You clearly don't know what electorate means. Which is no surprise.

[aussieh]

The auld bird at the snp conference with the saltire deely boppers sums up snp perfectly.

Christ, Scots slagging saltires, and oaps at that. We don't get many.

[Space Mackerel]

I have posted many times that I want to see tax increased to pay for improved social justice. Feel free to check numerous previous posts.

 

In part I want to see inheritance tax significantly increased as well as income tax.

Come and join the SNP, you'll be well welcomed with these views, apart from the inheritance tax, I don't think that's a no no[emoji106]

 

 

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[Thunderstruck]

Arnie give it a rest. It's like saying we had 16000 attendance because of season tickets and only 10000 turn up. A bit Celtic and Seville and Rangers and Manchester. We know exactly what electorate means. 49.9% of the Scottish electorate voted SNP in 2015 for WM 15% voted Tory. Yet we get dictated to by Mundell. Can you see the problem there.

Hilariously wrong.

 

35.5 % of the electorate voted SNP in 2015

25.8% of the electorate voted SNP in 2016

 

I'll leave you to work that out for yourself. It's the only way you'll learn.

[deesidejambo]

Come and join the SNP, you'll be well welcomed with these views. [emoji106]

 

 

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Eh? The SNP didn't increase tax to any extent in the Budget. I posted my greetin about that at the time.

[Space Mackerel]

Hilariously wrong.

 

35.5 % of the electorate voted SNP in 2015

25.8% of the electorate voted SNP in 2016

 

I'll leave you to work that out for yourself. It's the only way you'll learn.

Link please.

 

 

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[aussieh]

Would it be OK if he just had, for example, a radio talk show? If so, where do you draw the line?

 

Or, are you suggesting that any MP/MSP show devote their full attention to representing their constituents?

It wasn't a dig Thundy, I was just asking. An editorial position would be a huge undertake whilst representing your constituency. But it is the markets and he's supposedly knowledgeable on the his field. But is he a journalist and does it take him into areas of conflicting interests?.

[Space Mackerel]

Eh? The SNP didn't increase tax to any extent in the Budget. I posted my greetin about that at the time.

But if they did, what would be the political fallout?

 

 

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[aussieh]

Hilariously wrong.

 

35.5 % of the electorate voted SNP in 2015

25.8% of the electorate voted SNP in 2016

 

I'll leave you to work that out for yourself. It's the only way you'll learn.

Ok Thundy, if you want to play that game, give us the % for Conservative, Labour and Lib dems(Scottish parties please).

 

 

 

 

Apologises Arnie, I beg of your pardon, bud.

[Doogz]

They were either SNP or independence supporters as long as I've known them (20years). They can vote for who they want mate.

Sure they're entitled to vote anyway they want - I just find the whole independence at any cost attitude depressing. I'd rather see Scotland prosper regardless of our position in the UK or EU.