Indy Ref Part Deux

[HaymarketJambo]

Who cares about the man when he has absolutely no power or control?

 

This.

 

And his beloved Labour Party are a joke North and South of the Border.  

[JamboX2]

I feel sorry for him. He comes across like Gazza with Raul Moat.

Because wheeling out Andrew Wilson to lead the Growth Commission or Cannavan to lead the Yes Scotland group wasn't rehashing ex-politicians.

[aussieh]

Having seen Joanna Cherry, heard John Swinney and listened to Stephen Gethins on a variety of shows this week I cannot escape how this Scottish Independence campaign is merely picking up where it left off and stunningly sounds like a rehash of Brexit.

 

All 3 had no answer on the position of the EU. All 3 were unable to answer the currency question. All 3 ignored the deficit point.

 

They're back to "it'll be alright on the night".

 

Looks increasingly like Sturgeon bounced herself into this: keeps the conference happy (favourite song can be sung), disrupts article 50 news and shunts education, health and local budget cuts to the sidings of Scottish politics ahead of Council Elections.

 

Obviously, I'm not just being a cynic here...

So they've got to reveal all the detail now, but brexit negotiations are top secret. Anyway all in due course and fwiw we can't really know everything that's gonnae happen post Indy. But you know this x2 or is that a bit cynical.

[AlphonseCapone]

Because wheeling out Andrew Wilson to lead the Growth Commission or Cannavan to lead the Yes Scotland group wasn't rehashing ex-politicians.

X2, try debating the point and stop deflecting. It's an embarrassment this man thinks he has any authority to make these offers. Leave it to the people with actual power.

[JamboX2]

Cool. Doesn't change the fact one of the worst prime ministers this country has ever had is coming out with a lot of shite he has absolutely no control or power over though does it?

 

Seriously, why should we care what he says anymore than what you say? You're about equal in your ability to do anything and for all I know, you at least aren't incompetent, can't say the same for Gordon.

By no means is he anywhere near that accolade.

 

You have seen Cameron and May, yes? I'm too young for Eden, Heath and Callaghan but definitely worse than Gordon.

[AlphonseCapone]

So they've got to reveal all the detail now, but brexit negotiations are top secret. Anyway all in due course and fwiw we can't really know everything that's gonnae happen post Indy. But you know this x2 or is that a bit cynical.

Independence means independence though.

[AlphonseCapone]

By no means is he anywhere near that accolade.

 

You have seen Cameron and May, yes? I'm too young for Eden, Heath and Callaghan but definitely worse than Gordon.

As a PM? Worse than them both. Utterly incompetent. The man was the first in a line of incompetent Labour leaders and can take the accolade of firing the first shot in ruining the labour party.

[JamboX2]

X2, try debating the point and stop deflecting. It's an embarrassment this man thinks he has any authority to make these offers. Leave it to the people with actual power.

Ok. If we are to debate the point lets start from an honest assessment of his intervention.

 

Is he offering this? Or is he proposing an alternatve to independence?

 

You're right he can't offer this. But he can suggest an alternative.

[JamboX2]

As a PM? Worse than them both. Utterly incompetent. The man was the first in a line of incompetent Labour leaders and can take the accolade of firing the first shot in ruining the labour party.

This isn't a debate about Brown, but read any history of his time in office or of the 2008 crash and his role in averting catastrophe and depression is widely held up as being key.

[AlphonseCapone]

Ok. If we are to debate the point lets start from an honest assessment of his intervention.

 

Is he offering this? Or is he proposing an alternatve to independence?

 

You're right he can't offer this. But he can suggest an alternative.

He can say it. But the timing is wrong, nothing has been agreed which means it muddies the waters. Why don't we ever hear from Gordon about improving Scotland when independence isn't mentioned?

[JamboX2]

So they've got to reveal all the detail now, but brexit negotiations are top secret. Anyway all in due course and fwiw we can't really know everything that's gonnae happen post Indy. But you know this x2 or is that a bit cynical.

I was more meaning like the campaign for Brexit. The Leave campaign had 0 substance. Indy2 seem to have 0 substance at the moment.

 

If Leave was a false premise sold on a lie then this campaign is starting out the same way.

 

You'd think if you lost because of a lack of substance and a convincing economic plan then you'd probably start by having one.

 

Honestly, I think Sturgeon has jumped far too quickly. Since Monday the EU, currency and devolved powers have all seen a reversal of message from the SNP. Flapping around it seems.

[aussieh]

Independence means independence though.

Yip, at least we'll decide.

[jambo lodge]

As a PM? Worse than them both. Utterly incompetent. The man was the first in a line of incompetent Labour leaders and can take the accolade of firing the first shot in ruining the labour party.

 

Perhaps, but at least the Labour party at that time was electable. The current group of Corbynites can protest all they like but will never get elected. If only Gordon had come out clearly in support of Kezia's Federal proposal then the Labour Party would at least have a distinctive proposition.  

[deesidejambo]

He can say it. But the timing is wrong, nothing has been agreed which means it muddies the waters. Why don't we ever hear from Gordon about improving Scotland when independence isn't mentioned?

All I hear is playing the man and not considering the issue.

 

Because devo max is a viable alternative no matter who proposes it.

[JamboX2]

He can say it. But the timing is wrong, nothing has been agreed which means it muddies the waters. Why don't we ever hear from Gordon about improving Scotland when independence isn't mentioned?

He's released 3 books on his views on domestic politics and is UN Envoy for Education. Hardly quiet. Why don't the press report that?

 

Equally, all he's saying is what Dugdale, Murray, Rowley, Carwyn Jones and Sadiq Khan hace said... Brexit powers to devolved nations.

[aussieh]

As a PM? Worse than them both. Utterly incompetent. The man was the first in a line of incompetent Labour leaders and can take the accolade of firing the first shot in ruining the labour party.[/quot

[aussieh]

As a PM? Worse than them both. Utterly incompetent. The man was the first in a line of incompetent Labour leaders and can take the accolade of firing the first shot in ruining the labour party.

A bit harsh, Al. Blair?

[JamboX2]

Yip, at least we'll decide.

So you're happy with a Brexit style jump into the abyss?

 

The two sides in the will we won't we stuff this week are arguing the opposite points. Listen to John Swinney on GMS yesterday. Sounds as clueless as David Davis on Brexit on the consequences of independence.

[aussieh]

He's released 3 books on his views on domestic politics and is UN Envoy for Education. Hardly quiet. Why don't the press report that?

 

Equally, all he's saying is what Dugdale, Murray, Rowley, Carwyn Jones and Sadiq Khan hace said... Brexit powers to devolved nations.

And like him, not one have the power. Dugdale wasn't even elected.

[JamboX2]

Perhaps, but at least the Labour party at that time was electable. The current group of Corbynites can protest all they like but will never get elected. If only Gordon had come out clearly in support of Kezia's Federal proposal then the Labour Party would at least have a distinctive proposition.

He did. He was name checked as leading Labour's constitutional review by Dugdale in her speech...

[aussieh]

So you're happy with a Brexit style jump into the abyss?

 

The two sides in the will we won't we stuff this week are arguing the opposite points. Listen to John Swinney on GMS yesterday. Sounds as clueless as David Davis on Brexit on the consequences of independence.

The indyref has even started and neither has Article 50 and Brexit. So with til then.

 

Scottish pound floatation will be the choice of currency, with a new Central Bank of Scotland

[Space Mackerel]

Ok. If we are to debate the point lets start from an honest assessment of his intervention.

 

Is he offering this? Or is he proposing an alternatve to independence?

 

You're right he can't offer this. But he can suggest an alternative.

Where's he been since the Brexit result? Why now?

 

 

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[Psychedelicropcircle]

Doesn't matter then. There can still be a Yes/No referendum but on the No side will be the Devo-Max option with more powers to Holyrood.

 

This will eat into the soft Yes side of the vote. The hard liners such as on this site will always vote Yes no matter what, but the current undecided will be the target for the Labour Devo max option.

The Kunking fist offered this option last time round.....still awaiting its implementation.

[Space Mackerel]

The indyref has even started and neither has Article 50 and Brexit. So with til then.

 

Scottish pound floatation will be the choice of currency, with a new Central Bank of Scotland

New Scottish Investment bank getting set up too.

I know where I'll be sticking my cash.

 

 

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[AlphonseCapone]

Perhaps, but at least the Labour party at that time was electable. The current group of Corbynites can protest all they like but will never get elected. If only Gordon had come out clearly in support of Kezia's Federal proposal then the Labour Party would at least have a distinctive proposition.

See if Labour had been shouting federalism from the roof tops then fair enough, they'd probably have my backing. But it smacks of a desperate attempt to remain relevant and not something they believe in.

[AlphonseCapone]

All I hear is playing the man and not considering the issue.

 

Because devo max is a viable alternative no matter who proposes it.

It's naieve to say who proposes it doesn't matter. I proposed it on JKB about a year ago, it meant nothing because I mean nothing in politics.

[jambo lodge]

He did. He was name checked as leading Labour's constitutional review by Dugdale in her speech...

 

He stopped short of proposing Federalism however which would be a very distinctive third option. This option is already supported by the Liberals and would give the Greens something to think about. It would split the Yes vote completely and gain a lot of support from No voters.  

[AlphonseCapone]

He's released 3 books on his views on domestic politics and is UN Envoy for Education. Hardly quiet. Why don't the press report that?

 

Equally, all he's saying is what Dugdale, Murray, Rowley, Carwyn Jones and Sadiq Khan hace said... Brexit powers to devolved nations.

I have no idea, why do you think? And why have they suddenly changed from that to giving him front pages?

[AlphonseCapone]

A bit harsh, Al. Blair?

I dislike Blair but he wasn't incompetent aussie, maybe evil like...

 

But he made Labour a force, something they couldn't be before for decades or after for God knows how long this labour ice age will last.

[Rudolf's Mate]

New Scottish Investment bank getting set up too.

I know where I'll be sticking my cash.

 

 

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Coutts?

 

 

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[BRAVEHEART1874]

The education system must be pish right enough as the majority of young people under 30 want independance and according to Tory boy Mars and west glesga on here / kickback they must just be all be stupid idiots with no brains ! Well at least most are deciding for themselves and not what there parents tell them or obviously it would then only be around 45 % of young people.

Young people are not Scared of change and certainly not scared of threats of 1p on top of there tesco bread Auld people still listen to gogsie and the daily sevco though unfortunately

[deesidejambo]

It's naieve to say who proposes it doesn't matter. I proposed it on JKB about a year ago, it meant nothing because I mean nothing in politics.

But it's getting National coverage. Brown is irrelevant it's the policy that people vote for, not who proposes it

 

And it will attract soft Yes voters. It's naive to think it won't.

[Cruyff Turn]

Just watched his speech, we are getting control over fish and cows.

the UK is giving Scottish fishing waters away as part of England's Brexit deal according to Farage.

[Cruyff Turn]

But it's getting National coverage. Brown is irrelevant it's the policy that people vote for, not who proposes it

 

And it will attract soft Yes voters. It's naive to think it won't.

I think it would split the unionists more than those who believe in Indy.

[JamboX2]

I have no idea, why do you think? And why have they suddenly changed from that to giving him front pages?

No idea. Doesn't escape the fact that what he's said is what has already been said...

[deesidejambo]

I think it would split the unionists more than those who believe in Indy.

It would split the No vote but that's irrelevant as both will still vote No. the point is it will attract those potential soft Indy voters over.

[Cruyff Turn]

It would split the No vote but that's irrelevant as both will still vote No. the point is it will attract those potential soft Indy voters over.

Well no, because full fiscal autonomy isn't a no vote. A no vote is the status quo.

 

It may take some soft Indy voters who are dumb enough to fall for that one again.

 

If you believe that though then you must believe No voters believe in full fiscal autonomy.

 

Which would mean all the detractory comments by Unionists on how Scotland couldn't run its own affairs are nonsense.

 

Imo we should have a currency union with England and the rest of the UK with all VAT, income tax, NI, assets, crown estates, corporation tax, defence etc sent to Scotland. The Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament must be sovereign.

 

Then we can get on with our lives.

 

Until then, more powder puff powers won't change that.

[niblick1874]

SNP=TTIP and all that comes with it. SNP= Treason, it's as simple as that.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Well no, because full fiscal autonomy isn't a no vote. A no vote is the status quo.

 

It may take some soft Indy voters who are dumb enough to fall for that one again.

 

If you believe that though then you must believe No voters believe in full fiscal autonomy.

 

Which would mean all the detractory comments by Unionists on how Scotland couldn't run its own affairs are nonsense.

 

Imo we should have a currency union with England and the rest of the UK with all VAT, income tax, NI, assets, crown estates, corporation tax, defence etc sent to Scotland. The Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament must be sovereign.

 

Then we can get on with our lives.

 

Until then, more powder puff powers won't change that.

 

Has Brown called for full fiscal autonomy?

[deesidejambo]

Well no, because full fiscal autonomy isn't a no vote. A no vote is the status quo.

 

It may take some soft Indy voters who are dumb enough to fall for that one again.

 

If you believe that though then you must believe No voters believe in full fiscal autonomy.

 

Which would mean all the detractory comments by Unionists on how Scotland couldn't run its own affairs are nonsense.

 

Imo we should have a currency union with England and the rest of the UK with all VAT, income tax, NI, assets, crown estates, corporation tax, defence etc sent to Scotland. The Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament must be sovereign.

 

Then we can get on with our lives.

 

Until then, more powder puff powers won't change that.

I don't think you get the logic.

 

Anyone who is planning to vote No will not convert to Yes because of this option.

 

There will be some who move from Yes to No now that this intermediate option is available, if it matures. We can argue about how many will favour this option but it won't be nobody.

[Cruyff Turn]

Has Brown called for full fiscal autonomy?

Gordon Brown is neither here nor there.

 

I don't know what Gordon Brown is offering here, more than home rule, less than Indy.

 

Either way it's another gradual move towards Independence. Any compromise from the Unionists is another victory.

 

It won't change the fact that Scotland will become an Independent Country either now or in our lifetime.

[The Tartan Trump]

So, we've not even set a date yet and already Brown's getting wheeled out of the nursing home to mumble some shite about Devo Ma.. er Home Ru.. er Federalism.

 

Desperate stuff.

[Thunderstruck]

New Scottish Investment bank getting set up too.

I know where I'll be sticking my cash.

 

 

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Emotion in investment. Such a fool and his money will soon be parted.

 

Leave that for putting money into FoH (if you do).

[Cruyff Turn]

I don't think you get the logic.

 

Anyone who is planning to vote No will not convert to Yes because of this option.

 

There will be some who move from Yes to No now that this intermediate option is available, if it matures. We can argue about how many will favour this option but it won't be nobody.

I do get the logic.

 

I don't dispute what you are saying.

 

As I said to Rothstein, it's just another compromise. Another delaying tactic.

But what he has said will not happen because May and the Tories will not let Scotland be part of Brexit negotiations, his plan won't get off the ground. The Tories want to keep Scotland as a bargaining chip.

 

As Pro John Curtis has said, the longer Scotland waits the more likely Independence is to happen. Young people and the majority of people under 50 support it and those attitudes won't change, the case will only get stronger.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Gordon Brown is neither here nor there.

 

I don't know what Gordon Brown is offering here, more than home rule, less than Indy.

 

Either way it's another gradual move towards Independence. Any compromise from the Unionists is another victory.

 

It won't change the fact that Scotland will become an Independent Country either now or in our lifetime.

I'm just not sure what prompted your rant about full fiscal autonomy?

[Cruyff Turn]

I'm just not sure what prompted your rant about full fiscal autonomy?

He is offering Federalism which is the same thing. Indy lite, home rule whatever guise you want to call it.

[Space Mackerel]

Emotion in investment. Such a fool and his money will soon be parted.

 

Leave that for putting money into FoH (if you do).

I've made monthly payments since it's inception, ?20 a month. [emoji4]

 

 

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[Cade]

Federalism is too late now.

 

Federal UK would not have voted Brexit as all 4 nations would have to vote the same way.

 

That horse has bolted and it's laughable that it's being offered now.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

the UK is giving Scottish fishing waters away as part of England's Brexit deal according to Farage.

Bet that peterheid fud that had farage on his boat on the Thames is well chuffed wi his leave vote now eh?

[jambos are go!]

Lets have a straight yes /no vote on independence and decide the issue once and for all. Otherwise separatists will destroy our great wee nation bit by bit.