The mystery of sell outs and swathes of empty seats

[Nelly Terraces]

Empty seats scattered around Southampton's ground tonight despite a sell out. One row was around 5 seats I think. Cragieboy should go troll the Saints fan board with the same type of post and see what their reasons are

Don't think he's really that fussed about Southampton to be honest. Maybe you could check on his behalf?

[Craigieboy]

Empty seats scattered around Southampton's ground tonight despite a sell out. One row was around 5 seats I think. Cragieboy should go troll the Saints fan board with the same type of post and see what their reasons are

Troll?

 

Righto.

 

[kila]

Troll?

 

Righto.

 

 

Was just a (bad) joke

[Unknown user]

Was just a (bad) joke

Ah they can't all be zingers bud

[Jambo-Fox]

Oh dear Sevco have implemented an official seat release procedure .....

 

...... perhaps once demand justifies HMFC could do likewise (just an official process no money required);

 

Announced by Sevco 31/10/16:- ARE you unable to make any of the upcoming matches before Christmas? If so, you can earn money by selling back your seat.

 

The upcoming games against Hearts and Aberdeen in December are expected to be a sell out and we want to make sure if you can?t make it to the game someone else can go in your place to get behind the manager and the team.

 

To release your seat for resale and ensure every seat if full to show support for the team and Club in addition to earning up to ?12 with Rangers secondary ticketing, CLICK HERE or call 0371 702 1972

 

If a fan purchases your seat your Rangers account will be credit against your season ticket price for Season 2017/18 [NB comment will they have the funds??!!]

[Hackney Hearts]

...... perhaps once demand justifies HMFC could do likewise 

 

You keep using this phrase - but the demand is there any time a game is a sellout (nearly every game). Surely it doesn't matter whether it's 1 seat or 300 seats that get re-sold?

[Justin Z]

You keep using this phrase - but the demand is there any time a game is a sellout (nearly every game). Surely it doesn't matter whether it's 1 seat or 300 seats that get re-sold?

 

Sure it does--systems like this cost employee time and money to implement.

[jambali]

Sure it does--systems like this cost employee time and money to implement.

Click here makes it sound automated (or at least partly?)

[The Treasurer]

Sure it does--systems like this cost employee time and money to implement.

No doubt it will, but with the right system I doubt it would cost the full amount of the ticket price to process, therefore the club would still make money.

Better for the club to make even an extra ?5 on a resold ticket than noting at all.

Plenty of people already release their ST without expecting anything in return, but in order for it to work properly then some sort of incentive has to be offered.

[scott herbertson]

No doubt it will, but with the right system I doubt it would cost the full amount of the ticket price to process, therefore the club would still make money.

Better for the club to make even an extra ?5 on a resold ticket than noting at all.

Plenty of people already release their ST without expecting anything in return, but in order for it to work properly then some sort of incentive has to be offered.

 

 

I see what you are saying, but if it is just a clickthrough then those who currently do this for nothing (and I  would estimate that's 200-300 per game currently based on reappearing dots) would also presumably receive the incentive. Let's say it was ?5 - we would need another 50 or 60 to do this based on an average price of ?20 to break even . Not sure we would get that many more, and anyy less would mean Hearts would be out of pocket albeit the ground would be fuller 

[The Treasurer]

I see what you are saying, but if it is just a clickthrough then those who currently do this for nothing (and I  would estimate that's 200-300 per game currently based on reappearing dots) would also presumably receive the incentive. Let's say it was ?5 - we would need another 50 or 60 to do this based on an average price of ?20 to break even . Not sure we would get that many more, and anyy less would mean Hearts would be out of pocket albeit the ground would be fuller 

What I meant was that, after admin costs and "rewarding" the ST holder that the club would/could clear an extra ?5 per resold ticket.

Even if that was just 300 tickets, it's still an extra ?1500 income per match.

The ST holder would only receive their credit once their seat was resold, not just for releasing it.

[scott herbertson]

What I meant was that, after admin costs and "rewarding" the ST holder that the club would/could clear an extra ?5 per resold ticket.

Even if that was just 300 tickets, it's still an extra ?1500 income per match.

The ST holder would only receive their credit once their seat was resold, not just for releasing it.

 

 

I think we are talking at cross purposes

 

let's say the club currently resells 200 ST holders tickets at ?20 per game. The club gets ?4000 for this with no additional admin

 

If the club offers a reward of say ?5 to ST holders reselling their ticket for the game and as a result gets an additional 40 ST holders to release their tickets the club gets 240 x ?15 = ?3600 (as they have to pay the same to the 200 who were going to release for nothing). The club loses ?400 compared to the current situation but we have 40 more people in the ground.

 

This is without considering any additional administration costs

[Unknown user]

I think we are talking at cross purposes

 

let's say the club currently resells 200 ST holders tickets at ?20 per game. The club gets ?4000 for this with no additional admin

 

If the club offers a reward of say ?5 to ST holders reselling their ticket for the game and as a result gets an additional 40 ST holders to release their tickets the club gets 240 x ?15 = ?3600 (as they have to pay the same to the 200 who were going to release for nothing). The club loses ?400 compared to the current situation but we have 40 more people in the ground.

 

This is without considering any additional administration costs

Scott I've been trying to work out how to say this for ages, you nailed it. An extra expenditure stream for little additional benefit just doesn't sense.

[Bazzas right boot]

I think we are talking at cross purposes

 

let's say the club currently resells 200 ST holders tickets at ?20 per game. The club gets ?4000 for this with no additional admin

 

If the club offers a reward of say ?5 to ST holders reselling their ticket for the game and as a result gets an additional 40 ST holders to release their tickets the club gets 240 x ?15 = ?3600 (as they have to pay the same to the 200 who were going to release for nothing). The club loses ?400 compared to the current situation but we have 40 more people in the ground.

 

This is without considering any additional administration costs

I agree, but if it as a admin/ it issue, economies of scale kicks in.

 

For example it would cost the club around the same to do this with 200 or 2000 ticket's.

 

When does the cost of it/ software start to reap benefits.

If the infrastructure is too expensive it could be years or it could be weeks or months.

 

It might even be a third party, Ticketmaster for example. What's the thier charge for this additional work?

 

with technology as it is, surely the main, if not all the cost would be in the system.

 

I have No idea what that cost is tho.

[scott herbertson]

I agree, but if it as a admin/ it issue, economies of scale kicks in.

 

For example it would cost the club around the same to do this with 200 or 2000 ticket's.

 

When does the cost of it/ software start to reap benefits.

If the infrastructure is too expensive it could be years or it could be weeks or months.

 

It might even be a third party, Ticketmaster for example. What's the thier charge for this additional work?

 

with technology as it is, surely the main, if not all the cost would be in the system.

 

I have No idea what that cost is tho.

 

 

My point was just that even without administration/ software costs theree is a 'tipping point' before which it would be to Hearts financial detriment, and above which it would potentially beneficial dpendent on any additional costs.

personally, on the information we have I think it would be better just to encourage more people to release free by an e mail before each match from the club to all on its database, which would cost nothing but might get another 20- 100 released

[Bazzas right boot]

My point was just that even without administration/ software costs theree is a 'tipping point' before which it would be to Hearts financial detriment, and above which it would potentially beneficial dpendent on any additional costs.

personally, on the information we have I think it would be better just to encourage more people to release free by an e mail before each match from the club to all on its database, which would cost nothing but might get another 20- 100 released

Yip, agree, although I can't it being a massive cost to implement giving technology, even if it at the start, it could only be done online , as a trial and to save costs. I might be way off tho.

 

Have to be worthwhile, or pointless as you say.

[mitch41]

Once again at saturdays game against St Johnstone you could see the same seats empty despite the sold out signs 

going up at the ticket office. Why do these same seats lie empty.  That is a question i asked in my email to the club

that has still to be acknowledged never mind answered.

[mitch41]

Right my Jambos friends i sent this Email to Mark Watson on the 19th October at 23.17,

Subject : Why so many empty seats when games are sold out.

 

F.A.O. Mark Waterson

 

Dear Mr Watson, I have been discussing with fellow Hearts fans and friends why there are so many empty seats on match days when

Hearts F.C. have announced that games at Tynecastle are sold out. Now myself among others can see in some sections of the

ground, including H Lower, certain seats are always empty and even a friend of mine who sits in Section B Lower tells me there are 2

seats behind him which are never used. Fans who are on Jambos Kickback have also informed me that there are many seats in the 

ground that are never filled and my question is why is this happening when the sold out sign is put up.

I would understand if it was a question of Season Ticket Holders not attending a game and their seat is not sold. I know that if the Season

Ticket Holder informed the Ticket Office they couldn't attend a game the club could sell their seat.

I wonder if you Mr Waterson can inform me why myself, like many other fans, find it hard to understand why so many seats are empty on

match days.

Why so many seats are never occupied by anyone.

I would like to know why Hearts fans are turned away on match days when a match is said to be sold out when there are so many seats

unoccupied.

Do the Ticket Office know how many seats are lying empty.

Do the Ticket Office have any idea why this is happening considering the fact that apart from Hearts fans being turned away Hearts FC

are losing money by not selling these seats that are never occupied.

What system do the Ticket Office have to monitor which seats are never filled.

I believe these questions would never of come up regarding empty seats but for the large numbers involved.

I am sending this Email for your attention as i like many others hope that these empty seats are available on the Ticket Office system to

be sold. Like i said before if some of these are Season Ticket Holders i will understand but the numbers are so high i would hate to 

think these seats are empty because of a systems failure in the Ticket Office.

 

Yours etc ect

 

Well there you go i hope i've covered the question with this Email if not i apologise.

 

Now all i can do is wait for  Mark Waterson to reply.

I'll leave this for now as Mark may have more important things to deal with.

[Dagger Is Back]

I'll leave this for now as Mark may have more important things to deal with.

I hear you Mitch. I've been waiting on the club responding to two emails now about ST holders 'handing back' seats for games they can't attend. Got an acknowledgment over a year ago saying they'd look at it when it was raised with the new regime, but haven't even had an acknowledgement for the two emails I've sent them this season looking for an update.

 

It's a bit shit to be honest. Not hugely impressed with their lack of response. Doesn't surprise me that you haven't had an answer but have you at least had a holding reply?

 

If not, they need to get their fingers out. Pretty poor way to treat folks who are only trying to help move the club forward.

[luckydug]

I hear you Mitch. I've been waiting on the club responding to two emails now about ST holders 'handing back' seats for games they can't attend. Got an acknowledgment over a year ago saying they'd look at it when it was raised with the new regime, but haven't even had an acknowledgement for the two emails I've sent them this season looking for an update.

 

It's a bit shit to be honest. Not hugely impressed with their lack of response. Doesn't surprise me that you haven't had an answer but have you at least had a holding reply?

 

If not, they need to get their fingers out. Pretty poor way to treat folks who are only trying to help move the club forward.

 

 

It's worth bringing this up at the AGM.

[Ferryjambo99]

I thought it looked a bit fuller today

[Jambo 4 Ever]

I still say a ?5 voucher for hearts shop of seat is resold is way forward

 

Perhaps we can suggest it at the agm?!

[mitch41]

I hear you Mitch. I've been waiting on the club responding to two emails now about ST holders 'handing back' seats for games they can't attend. Got an acknowledgment over a year ago saying they'd look at it when it was raised with the new regime, but haven't even had an acknowledgement for the two emails I've sent them this season looking for an update.

 

It's a bit shit to be honest. Not hugely impressed with their lack of response. Doesn't surprise me that you haven't had an answer but have you at least had a holding reply?

 

If not, they need to get their fingers out. Pretty poor way to treat folks who are only trying to help move the club forward.

i've had nothing back from Mark. No holding reply Dagger nothing.

[Craigieboy]

It's worth bringing this up at the AGM.

It was raised by some guy at the recent HMSA dinner.

 

Ann's response escapes me but I think they see it as a difficult issue to resolve.

[Ray Gin]

Once again at saturdays game against St Johnstone you could see the same seats empty despite the sold out signs 

going up at the ticket office. Why do these same seats lie empty.  That is a question i asked in my email to the club

that has still to be acknowledged never mind answered.

 

The seats lie empty because season ticket holders have bought the seats, not bothered to turn up, and not bothered to tell the club to resell them.

 

I'm not sure why you are finding this so difficult to grasp? The club can't just resell a seat that somebody has already bought. 

 

There were less empty seats on Saturday than there were at the last . Either more turned up to use their ticket this time, or they contacted the club to allow them to re-sell them.

[Dagger Is Back]

It was raised by some guy at the recent HMSA dinner.

 

Ann's response escapes me but I think they see it as a difficult issue to resolve.

The issue of handing back unused ST seats or acknowledging a customer email after 6 weeks CB?

[luckydug]

The issue of heading back unused ST seats or acknowledging a customer email after 6 weeks CB?

 

 

Can only speak of my own experience but they are usually fairly prompt with replies.

So it might be worth Mitch contacting the club to chase them up.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Pretend to steal a stewards hat, you will get a response rapido

[Thomaso]

On Saturday I counted at least 15 empty seats just around us in the Wheatfield. These are generally occupied by regular ST holders - it is a worry that some fans are no longer bothering to turn up to watch the current quality of football being put before us.

[Clerry Jambo]

i was in section L Saturday right next to segregation, now it was busy obviously but for a non st holder section there were still a number of empty seats.

[Craigieboy]

The issue of handing back unused ST seats or acknowledging a customer email after 6 weeks CB?

Well that is out of order, yes.

 

I actually now think there's a case for people just not wanting to show up to watch the team. As it stands, it's utter shit. Not everyone will turn up regardless.

 

Still, there should be a seamless and easy process to hand back your seats. Surely other clubs have something in place that we could adapt?

[Dagger Is Back]

Can only speak of my own experience but they are usually fairly prompt with replies.

So it might be worth Mitch contacting the club to chase them up.

 

Yes I've found that too but I think it depends on what you're asking and therefore who you speak to. I'm still waiting for a call back that was promised last week.

[Dagger Is Back]

Well that is out of order, yes.

 

I actually now think there's a case for people just not wanting to show up to watch the team. As it stands, it's utter shit. Not everyone will turn up regardless.

 

Still, there should be a seamless and easy process to hand back your seats. Surely other clubs have something in place that we could adapt?

 

I think you're right on all counts CB. Must admit I had to push myself to go on Saturday and it was a tough choice between that and work. Your last sentence is spot on and not everyone can be arsed with a phone call, they just want to do it online after hours. Some folks still don't even know that it's possible which was the point I made to the club in  2015!

[jambali]

I won't be at the next game as I'm on holiday. I will inform the club so they can resell the seat.

 

At the weekend I was out at lunchtime with friends and decided at the last minute not to go. So that seat would be empty.

 

I really can't get excited about it. The seats have been sold & the club has the money. If we can get a bit more by reselling then great. There can't be many clubs that oversell their ground regularly.

 

However, I am narked that people are not getting replies from the club. That's bang out of order, especially when the improved communication was one of the big things following admin. You should escalate this. Send a complaint to Queen Ann.

[Thomaso]

I won't be at the next game as I'm on holiday. I will inform the club so they can resell the seat.

 

At the weekend I was out at lunchtime with friends and decided at the last minute not to go. So that seat would be empty.

 

I really can't get excited about it. The seats have been sold & the club has the money. If we can get a bit more by reselling then great. There can't be many clubs that oversell their ground regularly.

 

However, I am narked that people are not getting replies from the club. That's bang out of order, especially when the improved communication was one of the big things following admin. You should escalate this. Send a complaint to Queen Ann.

 

Not having a go mate, but for me a lunch with pals would not be arranged if it meant missing a Hearts match.   That is my choice as I am a bit of a diehard - genuine question - did our current style of eye bleeding football sway your decision not to attend?

[jambali]

Not having a go mate, but for me a lunch with pals would not be arranged if it meant missing a Hearts match.   That is my choice as I am a bit of a diehard - genuine question - did our current style of eye bleeding football sway your decision not to attend?

Bunch of folks I have not seen in a long time. Not regular mates. I wouldn't have arranged that either. Bleeding eye? Well, "I'm enjoying myself here, should I go to Tynie...?" Of course there's an effect.

[Mars plastic]

Not having a go mate, but for me a lunch with pals would not be arranged if it meant missing a Hearts match.   That is my choice as I am a bit of a diehard - genuine question - did our current style of eye bleeding football sway your decision not to attend?

It's swayed mine to the point where I've not been to a home or away league game this season. Was at both Ruropa league games and that was enough for me. Doesn't go down so well with the mate I go with but my ticket is usually given to some other poor soul.

[busby1985]

It's not rocket science. The club announces how many people actually came through the turnstiles and not the season tickets sold plus match day tickets.

 

The empty seats also highlight how little we need a 20k seater stadium. Yeah it's great to rebuild the old stand, it's in desperate need for repair but folk crying that we didn't increase to 22/23/24k are deluded. If we finish 3rd this year and same again the following season we will struggle to sell 15k tickets.

[Thomaso]

Bunch of folks I have not seen in a long time. Not regular mates. I wouldn't have arranged that either. Bleeding eye? Well, "I'm enjoying myself here, should I go to Tynie...?" Of course there's an effect.

 

Sums up just how Neilson's brand of football is turning off fans.

[Thomaso]

It's not rocket science. The club announces how many people actually came through the turnstiles and not the season tickets sold plus match day tickets.

 

The empty seats also highlight how little we need a 20k seater stadium. Yeah it's great to rebuild the old stand, it's in desperate need for repair but folk crying that we didn't increase to 22/23/24k are deluded. If we finish 3rd this year and same again the following season we will struggle to sell 15k tickets.

 

Pretty much agree with this.  Ultimately the old stand HAD to be replaced - even if the capacity did not increase.

[Nelly Terraces]

It's not rocket science. The club announces how many people actually came through the turnstiles and not the season tickets sold plus match day tickets.

 

The empty seats also highlight how little we need a 20k seater stadium. Yeah it's great to rebuild the old stand, it's in desperate need for repair but folk crying that we didn't increase to 22/23/24k are deluded. If we finish 3rd this year and same again the following season we will struggle to sell 15k tickets.

If things on the park don't change, and to be honest, even if they do, I can't see myself renewing next season - absolutley no need to as it'll be easy to get tickets for any games you want to go to due to the increased capacity. Totally agree that folk thinking we should've gone up to 22K or above were, as you say, a bit delusional, there's not a chance we'd ever get anywhere near that on a regular basis.

[Francis Albert]

The proportions of empty seats and Tynecastle and the Emirates at the weekend were not much different, despite obviously the North London derby being a bigger game for the home side than Hearts v St Johnstone and despite the large financial incentive for Arsenal fans to release their STs. I think it is an unsolvable problem unless you increase capacity to meet or exceed demand. Which we are doing, at least for all but the biggest games.

 

One thing that surely is capable of resolution is the size of the segregation gap. At Tynecastle, 6 or 8 rows and hundreds of seats. At the Emirates,  hundreds of police in gear around the stadium prepared for a riot, police horses outside tube stations and the ground, police helicopters overhead. And a segregation zone consisting of precisely one row of stewards.

 

I agree that the club should have acknowledged and replied to Mitch's email by now.

[Francis Albert]

The proportions of empty seats and Tynecastle and the Emirates at the weekend were not much different, despite obviously the North London derby being a bigger game for the home side than Hearts v St Johnstone and despite the large financial incentive for Arsenal fans to release their STs. I think it is an unsolvable problem unless you increase capacity to meet or exceed demand. Which we are doing, at least for all but the biggest games.

 

One thing that surely is capable of resolution is the size of the segregation gap. At Tynecastle, 6 or 8 rows and hundreds of seats. At the Emirates,  hundreds of police in gear around the stadium prepared for a riot, police horses outside tube stations and the ground, police helicopters overhead. And a segregation zone consisting of precisely one row of stewards.

 

I agree that the club should have acknowledged and replied to Mitch's email by now.

[Francis Albert]

It's not rocket science. The club announces how many people actually came through the turnstiles and not the season tickets sold plus match day tickets.

 

The empty seats also highlight how little we need a 20k seater stadium. Yeah it's great to rebuild the old stand, it's in desperate need for repair but folk crying that we didn't increase to 22/23/24k are deluded. If we finish 3rd this year and same again the following season we will struggle to sell 15k tickets.

I don't think it shows how little we need a 20,000 seater stadium. If we can draw 16,500 to watch the dross we are currently displaying, how many could we draw if we were playing attractive football and challenging, and at least being closer to the top than to the bottom in terms of points won?

 

Or are you saying we don't need a 20,000 stadium (which needn't be full every game to justify the incremental cost) because our current performances and league position is as good as we  ever aim or expect to achieve?

[Clerry Jambo]

The proportions of empty seats and Tynecastle and the Emirates at the weekend were not much different, despite obviously the North London derby being a bigger game for the home side than Hearts v St Johnstone and despite the large financial incentive for Arsenal fans to release their STs. I think it is an unsolvable problem unless you increase capacity to meet or exceed demand. Which we are doing, at least for all but the biggest games.

 

One thing that surely is capable of resolution is the size of the segregation gap. At Tynecastle, 6 or 8 rows and hundreds of seats. At the Emirates, hundreds of police in gear around the stadium prepared for a riot, police horses outside tube stations and the ground, police helicopters overhead. And a segregation zone consisting of precisely one row of stewards.

 

I agree that the club should have acknowledged and replied to Mitch's email by now.

I noticed at the game that seats 1 - 13 are lost x 28 rows so approx 350 seats lost to segregation

[Debut 4]

I noticed at the game that seats 1 - 13 are lost x 28 rows so approx 350 seats lost to segregation

a real life dot count CJ?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

a real life dot count CJ?

Even dot counts are more exciting than watching Hearts at the moment.

 

And dot counts are tragic.

[Debut 4]

Even dot counts are more exciting than watching Hearts at the moment.

 

And dot counts are tragic.

Haha

[mitch41]

The seats lie empty because season ticket holders have bought the seats, not bothered to turn up, and not bothered to tell the club to resell them.

 

I'm not sure why you are finding this so difficult to grasp? The club can't just resell a seat that somebody has already bought.

 

There were less empty seats on Saturday than there were at the last . Either more turned up to use their ticket this time, or they contacted the club to allow them to re-sell them.

Well if more season ticket holders turned up great. If season ticket holders contacted the club regarding selling their seat great. Highlighting the problem can only be a good thing can you grasp that. Now what about the ones that are always unused i just can't grasp the reason why this happens.

 

Sorry Ray Gin i just couldn't resist the grasp thing......

[Clerry Jambo]

Even dot counts are more exciting than watching Hearts at the moment.

 

And dot counts are tragic.

Yer erse...... the guy who cannae keep off count threads just to have a pop, what's more tragic Geoffrey