Brexit?

[DETTY29]

We will leave, so I don't know what your getting your Alan's in a twist about.

 

Today was about Parliament having a say on how that happens, that's all.

And nearly 6 months have been wasted to get to this point.

 

The ire should be towards the politicians who weren't prepared admit to the public,or just accept and get on with the due process.

[Daydream Believer]

Exactly. Have a referendum, get the result and get on with it come hell or high water.

The way people whinge nowadays when things don't go their way is absolutely sickening. All this pandering to losers and listening to them whining trying to tell you of the impending doom winds me up.

Thank god our ancestors had some bollocks about them.

 

 

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I would guess that we could have referendums (referenda?) on lots of things that would pass with a bigger majority that the EU one, say euthanasia or drugs policy but we don't get to. We only ended up with the EU one because Cameron tried to strengthen the Tories and made an arse of it, had he known what was going to happen we probably wouldn't be here, so I'm not convinced that all the "will of the people" outrage holds too much water.  

[Francis Albert]

I would guess that we could have referendums (referenda?) on lots of things that would pass with a bigger majority that the EU one, say euthanasia or drugs policy but we don't get to. We only ended up with the EU one because Cameron tried to strengthen the Tories and made an arse of it, had he known what was going to happen we probably wouldn't be here, so I'm not convinced that all the "will of the people" outrage holds too much water.

We didn't hear too much of this stuff before the result went the wrong way. As a "Remainer" I find the inability to accept that "Leave" won despicable.

[aussieh]

We will leave, so I don't know what your getting your Alan's in a twist about.

 

Today was about Parliament having a say on how that happens, that's all.

But they already did, Boris. They approved the referendum. If they started this shite after indyref, well ?????????????

 

Don't get me wrong, the vote wasn't permission for this government to decide what happens. Its out, nothing else. If labour want to reapply, put it in their future manifestos and if elected we go again. Just like the saviours of Scotland, the SNP.

[Daydream Believer]

We didn't hear too much of this stuff before the result went the wrong way. As a "Remainer" I find the inability to accept that "Leave" won despicable.

 

I hardly think it's despicable, and I don't think that anyone doubts that "leave" won.

 

The implication is that people who wanted to remain are trying to overturn the result on a technicality but it will be down to MP's to vote to trigger article 50 just like it's down to them to vote on anything else, so I don't see that we're any worse off than we are on any other issue.

[JamboX2]

Simple fact is the government don't ave a plan for the post-Brexit economy, for the post-Brexit constitution and for the negotiations set to start. In effect Article 50 hasn't happened because blth sides in the referendum thought Remain would win.

 

Frankly, we shouldn't be submitting the leave letter until there is a plan. Too much rests on this and it's mpact will be generational in effect. It must be dealt with very very carefully.

 

It will happen. Parliament will now have to be consulted as it should be in a system based on the sovereignty of Parliament. But hopefully there is some semblance of a plan to ride out the economic after shocks once this happens. It's all a phoney war at the moment.

[Mikey1874]

I really don't understand how this court case came about. To me it's just obvious Parliament needs to agree the withdrawal from EU.

 

An election is the obvious way forward giving government clear mandate (I know referendum is the mandate) and clear majority.

 

With small majority this is subject to major problems and disruption or more than there is anyway with such a major change.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Simple fact is the government don't ave a plan for the post-Brexit economy, for the post-Brexit constitution and for the negotiations set to start. In effect Article 50 hasn't happened because blth sides in the referendum thought Remain would win.

 

Frankly, we shouldn't be submitting the leave letter until there is a plan. Too much rests on this and it's mpact will be generational in effect. It must be dealt with very very carefully.

 

It will happen. Parliament will now have to be consulted as it should be in a system based on the sovereignty of Parliament. But hopefully there is some semblance of a plan to ride out the economic after shocks once this happens. It's all a phoney war at the moment.

 

As the boxer Mike Tyson once said "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth"

Or as Helmuth von Moltke said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"

 

In other words.

We could have the best thought out plans possible, covering every eventuality only for the entire lot to go out the window on the first day of negotiations.

I can guarantee you, that the plans we make before the negotiations, will look nothing like what we actually end up with by the end of the negotiations, and that applies to both sides.

[jack D and coke]

As the boxer Mike Tyson once said "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth"

Or as Helmuth von Moltke said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"

 

In other words.

We could have the best thought out plans possible, covering every eventuality only for the entire lot to go out the window on the first day of negotiations.

I can guarantee you, that the plans we make before the negotiations, will look nothing like what we actually end up with by the end of the negotiations, and that applies to both sides.

Correctamundo.

Like my previous point to another poster about the white paper. It's was basically for wiping your hoop it mattered not a jot what was in it.

There can be no plans for independence or brexit. It will happen and develop over years and years.

 

 

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[Boris]

Correctamundo.

Like my previous point to another poster about the white paper. It's was basically for wiping your hoop it mattered not a jot what was in it.

There can be no plans for independence or brexit. It will happen and develop over years and years.

 

 

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So we should go into a Brexit negotiation not knowing whether or not we want to access the single market?  Whether we would be flexible on certain things?  Or, to be blunt, what we want to get out of these negotiations?

 

In that case there is no need for negotiations, we simply say, we're out, back to default WTO tariffs, and then we start, um, negotiating trade deals.  But by your logic, we would go into those with no plan of what we want out of it.

 

How can you negotiate if you don't have an end goal?

 

I'd also say that you are wrong regards the white paper, but that's a differnet argument for a different thread, but as an example of a stated position, a direction of travel, it was at least something to negotiate around.  Brexit has nothing, nada, zip.  As we are fond of saying to our match officials, this Government "doesn't know what they are doing".

[Boris]

As the boxer Mike Tyson once said "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth"

Or as Helmuth von Moltke said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"

 

In other words.

We could have the best thought out plans possible, covering every eventuality only for the entire lot to go out the window on the first day of negotiations.

I can guarantee you, that the plans we make before the negotiations, will look nothing like what we actually end up with by the end of the negotiations, and that applies to both sides.

 

But never the less, you still need a plan!

 

And you would work out hypotheticals plan a, b, c, d, etc etc etc....

[jack D and coke]

So we should go into a Brexit negotiation not knowing whether or not we want to access the single market? Whether we would be flexible on certain things? Or, to be blunt, what we want to get out of these negotiations?

 

In that case there is no need for negotiations, we simply say, we're out, back to default WTO tariffs, and then we start, um, negotiating trade deals. But by your logic, we would go into those with no plan of what we want out of it.

 

How can you negotiate if you don't have an end goal?

 

I'd also say that you are wrong regards the white paper, but that's a differnet argument for a different thread, but as an example of a stated position, a direction of travel, it was at least something to negotiate around. Brexit has nothing, nada, zip. As we are fond of saying to our match officials, this Government "doesn't know what they are doing".

It's on more than brexit that the government doesn't know what they're doing it's nothing new. I agree it's an absolute shambles too but having a plan that could be shot down on day one would also be asking for trouble. You start mapping it out what you're after and the people will only kick up another fuss when they don't get it or have to make big concessions.

The politicians we have nowadays are abysmal.

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

But never the less, you still need a plan!

 

And you would work out hypotheticals plan a, b, c, d, etc etc etc....

You can have plan a, b, c, d, e, f etc etc

 

 

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[Jambo-Jimbo]

But never the less, you still need a plan!

 

And you would work out hypotheticals plan a, b, c, d, etc etc etc....

 

And that is what I said, that you could cover every eventually only for the other side to throw you a curve ball on day one, something that you didn't think off, plans out the window then.

 

I think people are getting too worked up about the perceived lack of a plan, besides why do people think there is no plan anyway, because Government hasn't told you or I about one?

Government only tells people what they are doing or planning when Government are good and ready, the Brexit plans will be no different.

[Boris]

And that is what I said, that you could cover every eventually only for the other side to throw you a curve ball on day one, something that you didn't think off, plans out the window then.

 

I think people are getting too worked up about the perceived lack of a plan, besides why do people think there is no plan anyway, because Government hasn't told you or I about one?

Government only tells people what they are doing or planning when Government are good and ready, the Brexit plans will be no different.

 

But it is for Parliament to approve paln or not.

[Seymour M Hersh]

But it is for Parliament to approve paln or not.

 

They would have had plenty opportunity during the debate to repeal the 72 Europe Bill.

 

This expert seems to think the High Court got it totally wrong.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/04/how-did-the-high-court-get-it-so-badly-wrong-on-article-50/

[Francis Albert]

But never the less, you still need a plan!

 

And you would work out hypotheticals plan a, b, c, d, etc etc etc....

And if the plan is approved by Parliament you go into a negotiation with the other side knowing your preferred solution and your hypotheticals a, b, c, d. etc.

 

Have you ever been involved in a major negotiation?

[Boris]

And if the plan is approved by Parliament you go into a negotiation with the other side knowing your preferred solution and your hypotheticals a, b, c, d. etc.

 

Have you ever been involved in a major negotiation?

 

OK, I can see your point, but then the upshot is that Parliament has to approve the deal achieved.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

But it is for Parliament to approve paln or not.

 

As FA says, by doing so, the other side know what your plans are, which allows them to throw that curve ball at you.

 

Could Parliament not debate this in closed session (if it can), that way all the MP's and folks who want Parliament to debate the terms are happy, but the EU don't get to know our plans (In theory).

[iantjambo]

.

[Don Dan]

I'm hoping to buy a car (anything really) and I'm prepared to go to ?49k but I want for ?40K. would I be happy that the seller new my top line? Of course not. The same goes for government "negotiators" Negotiations don't exist if the other party see your peramators. It then becomes a take it or leave it situation. The EU will play hard ball and we will be wimpy subservients having to agree because we have no leeway built in or allowed if the Remainers get their way.

[Boris]

I'm hoping to buy a car (anything really) and I'm prepared to go to ?49k but I want for ?40K. would I be happy that the seller new my top line? Of course not. The same goes for government "negotiators" Negotiations don't exist if the other party see your peramators. It then becomes a take it or leave it situation. The EU will play hard ball and we will be wimpy subservients having to agree because we have no leeway built in or allowed if the Remainers get their way.

 

????

 

I don't think anyone is expecting a full blow by blow account of what the negotiations are going to be, but some guidance sayare we wanting to remain in the single market or is the City of London to get special treatment?  What about Scotland, Wales, N Ireland? may help Parliament given it is they that trigger the bloody thing!

[Don Dan]

????

 

I don't think anyone is expecting a full blow by blow account of what the negotiations are going to be, but some guidance sayare we wanting to remain in the single market or is the City of London to get special treatment? What about Scotland, Wales, N Ireland? may help Parliament given it is they that trigger the bloody thing!

I think you'll find they do. I heard as much recently from Clegg and Corbyn.

[Francis Albert]

As FA says, by doing so, the other side know what your plans are, which allows them to throw that curve ball at you.

 

Could Parliament not debate this in closed session (if it can), that way all the MP's and folks who want Parliament to debate the terms are happy, but the EU don't get to know our plans (In theory).

With about 600 MPs and god knows how many members of the House of Lords, many keen for the negotiations to fail, you'd have lock the lot up incommunicado for the duration of the negotiation.

 

Actually maybe that's not a bad idea.

[Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?]

Keep the faith.
This ruling will not halt our inevitable march towards a Racist Utopia.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I think you'll find they do. I heard as much recently from Clegg and Corbyn.

 

Tim Farron as well.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

With about 600 MPs and god knows how many members of the House of Lords, many keen for the negotiations to fail, you'd have lock the lot up incommunicado for the duration of the negotiation.

 

Actually maybe that's not a bad idea.

 

That's why I said in theory, we all know it would never remain secret, simply because as you quite rightly say, there are far too many people who want Brexit to fail.

[Jambo dans les Pyrenees]

Another Tory Brexiter MP has resigned.  This one apparently always thought it meant staying in the single market.

 

There was an element, not huge, of racism in the leave campaign bought by a small minority of leave voters.  There were false promises made on either side.  There was a lack of clarity and planning for either outcome.  There were spineless politicians on either side of the argument.  But it is difficult to conclude or accept that all leave voters had the same idea over a range of the key details.

 

What's wrong with debating the best way to deliver an outcome? 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Another Tory Brexiter MP has resigned. This one apparently always thought it meant staying in the single market.

 

There was an element, not huge, of racism in the leave campaign bought by a small minority of leave voters. There were false promises made on either side. There was a lack of clarity and planning for either outcome. There were spineless politicians on either side of the argument. But it is difficult to conclude or accept that all leave voters had the same idea over a range of the key details.

 

What's wrong with debating the best way to deliver an outcome?

When the dust settles I think this court ruling will bring about some common sense and a bit more thought when it comes to tabling a severance deal.

 

But Brexit is going to have to happen and it's going to have to happen in a way which changes the immigration/single market arrangement. Otherwise all future referendums and to an extent public votes lose their credibility. I'm reading Toynbee in the Guardian whining about how the entire Brexit result needs to be overturned. People like her are as much of a problem as the Daily Mail (who are seriously going to have a heart attack at this rate )

[Space Mackerel]

Tell you what though, the comments section in The Mail and Express has given me a good chuckle this morning.

 

 

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[jambos are go!]

The SNPs Alex Neill has revealed he voted for Brexit and there are claims so did members of the SNP Cabinet. According to BBC Radio.

[mullen13]

The SNPs Alex Neill has revealed he voted for Brexit and there are claims so did members of the SNP Cabinet. According to BBC Radio.

 

No way... people voting how they like in a democratic society? Shocking

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Tell you what though, the comments section in The Mail and Express has given me a good chuckle this morning.

 

 

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It's kind of not funny. Some seriously unhinged idiots on there

[Space Mackerel]

It's kind of not funny. Some seriously unhinged idiots on there

They all seem to be from Englandshire so they're well away from us up here.

 

 

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[jake]

Keep the faith.

This ruling will not halt our inevitable march towards a Racist Utopia.

 

What chance you got when folk keep dumbing down....

[The Mighty Thor]

Keep the faith.

This ruling will not halt our inevitable march towards a Racist Utopia.

 

 

Today's front pages are absolutely tremendous. The Super Soaraway's in particular is a fine example of cranking up the little Englander xenophobic rhetoric.

 

Anything that jams sand in the snatch of these types is good by me

[Auld Reekin']

 

Today's front pages are absolutely tremendous. The Super Soaraway's in particular is a fine example of cranking up the little Englander xenophobic rhetoric.

 

Anything that jams sand in the snatch of these types is good by me

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Another Tory Brexiter MP has resigned.  This one apparently always thought it meant staying in the single market.

 

There was an element, not huge, of racism in the leave campaign bought by a small minority of leave voters.  There were false promises made on either side.  There was a lack of clarity and planning for either outcome.  There were spineless politicians on either side of the argument.  But it is difficult to conclude or accept that all leave voters had the same idea over a range of the key details.

 

What's wrong with debating the best way to deliver an outcome? 

 

Nothing whatsoever, just don't let the other side know all your plans, your red lines, your contingency plans, plan B, C, D, E etc etc.

 

By debating it in Parliament & the Lords and then having a vote on what your going to be negotiating, only pre-warns the EU negotiators of every chapter and verse of your entire negotiating strategy.  By doing that it's doomed to failure, which many will be ecstatic about.

 

[Francis Albert]

Another Tory Brexiter MP has resigned.  This one apparently always thought it meant staying in the single market.

 

There was an element, not huge, of racism in the leave campaign bought by a small minority of leave voters.  There were false promises made on either side.  There was a lack of clarity and planning for either outcome.  There were spineless politicians on either side of the argument.  But it is difficult to conclude or accept that all leave voters had the same idea over a range of the key details.

 

What's wrong with debating the best way to deliver an outcome?

The EU always made it clear that the single market was inextricably linked with free movement of peoples. The Remain sides case was built almost entirely on the economic damage of not being in the single market. What on earth did he think Brexit meant if it did not impact on the two headline issues in the referendum campaign?

[jake]

If history is the lesson then this referendum will be ignored.

Greece Ireland Holland France have all had them in relation to the EU.

All were ignored and the question put differently.

 

 

But hey what do i know im just a thicko racist.

Wished i could be like the remainerz and cheer a fund manager from the city on.

Cant have those people losing out.

 

Democracy is an illusion.

In the EU and the USA.

And for the nationalists to back any scuppering referendum vote is bonkers.

[Francis Albert]

The SNPs Alex Neill has revealed he voted for Brexit and there are claims so did members of the SNP Cabinet. According to BBC Radio.

Nationalists voting for nationalism and for leaving a union. Who would have thought?

[Francis Albert]

During the campaign both sides claimed repeatedly this vote was the most important decision in generations and would have a fundamental impact on the country's future.

 

I don't remember anyone talking about the sovereignty of parliament and reminding us that the vote was only advisory and just a preliminary to another votes by parliament on starting the process andr the terms negotiated.

 

Until that is the wrong answer was given.

 

Clegg and Farron are explicit about their aim of overturning the result. As is Tony "we are the insurgents now" Blair. (You'd have thought after his support for insurgency in the Middle East with disastrous consequences for the region and its people that he would at least use language more carefully).

[jambos are go!]

Nationalists voting for nationalism and for leaving a union. Who would have thought?

Unless they dont tell you till after the vote and after keeping quiet when their Leader says that leaving the EC is grounds for another referendum.

[Cade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwsQ_5Wm4oo

 

 

 

[Don Dan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwsQ_5Wm4oo

 

 

 

 

Brilliant

[Space Mackerel]

Unless they dont tell you till after the vote and after keeping quiet when their Leader says that leaving the EC is grounds for another referendum.

Theresa May was a soft Remainer according to reports.

How does that square your hypothesis?

 

 

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[The Mighty Thor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwsQ_5Wm4oo

 

 

 

Saw it on Facebook earlier.

 

 

One can only imagine the seethe [emoji38]

[Seymour M Hersh]

No way... people voting how they like in a democratic society? Shocking

 

It's more than a little surprising in that particular political party. He'll be out on his arse sooner rather than later.

[jambos are go!]

Theresa May was a soft Remainer according to reports.

How does that square your hypothesis?

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What hypothesis?

[Mikey1874]

Nothing whatsoever, just don't let the other side know all your plans, your red lines, your contingency plans, plan B, C, D, E etc etc.

 

By debating it in Parliament & the Lords and then having a vote on what your going to be negotiating, only pre-warns the EU negotiators of every chapter and verse of your entire negotiating strategy. By doing that it's doomed to failure, which many will be ecstatic about.

Parliament agreeing the Anglo Irish Agreement didn't stop secret negotiations on detailed outcomes with the paramilitary groups and others.

 

Parliament is sovereign. May wanted a Royal Order by the Queen. Back to before Cromwell fought the King to establish Parliament as representatives of the people as above the unelected monarchy.