Hillsborough Verdict

[luckydug]

Of course. That point is not missed. But this does not mean that we have to continue to 'pay our respects' to the victims etc. There are people on here that are not even talking about the criminal negligence but just focusing on the pain and hurt. As I have clearly said this should be closure to it all now.

 

Until the criminal negligence is properly dealt with there will never be closure imo

[RudiHMFC]

I8hibsh, you are far too dumb to be posting on a thread like this tbh, it's fine when you're spouting all your shit on harmless threads to do with football but leave this one out eh?

[i8hibsh]

I8hibsh, you are far too dumb to be posting on a thread like this tbh, it's fine when you're spouting all your shit on harmless threads to do with football but leave this one out eh?

 

 

Ah ok then, sorry chief.  Never realised you ran this show.

Edited April 27, 2016 by i8hibsh

[Golden Vision]

^ Correct.  What Golden Vision is positing is question begging--assuming the conclusion of the very thing he's trying to argue, his questions implying that the mere presence of ticketless fans necessarily places blame upon them.

No, re-read my post. I was saying, not implying, that it was the pushing, not the presence, of ticketless fans that caused the crush. 

[Justin Z]

I do not disagree with any of this and in particular the point that the blame lies with fans behaviour in general over a long period of time. What I am saying is that the fans who were trying to push their way in on this tragic day should not be exempted from this blame.

 

The jury saw to that question and responded, unanimously, that there's no legal blame to lay at those fans'--or any fans'--feet.  In other words, to focus on what scraps of blame might be down to individual, nameless fans without tickets who bore no greater duty of care beyond that of an everyman walking on the street, before we have dealt with those who bear the overwhelming supermajority of the blame and who were criminally derelict in their duty, as well as those members of the establishment who ran the country like a Soviet prison and tried to cover up the consequences of that attitude, is to do nothing but deflect and distract.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Justin Z

[Golden Vision]

He is failing to recognize that the majority of fans who poured through the open gate would have had tickets.There were only ten turnstiles to cater for the 10000 fans entering that end of the ground.

I did not fail to recognise that fact. My point was about the minority who did not have tickets but wanted to get into the game anyway without any thought for the consequences.

[Pistol1874]

I do not disagree with any of this and in particular the point that the blame lies with fans behaviour in general over a long period of time. What I am saying is that the fans who were trying to push their way in on this tragic day should not be exempted from this blame.

Fine. For the reasons I have given before on this thread, twice, I will respectfully and completely disagree.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Why must they continue to apologise?  They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended.  They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years.  Do you think they need to continue to apologise indefinitely?  Newspapers are on their last legs anyway.  They will not be around for much longer. 

 

Hillsborough and Lockerbie were the two main tragedies that were the classic ?I know where I was when it happened? so I have always been interested and deeply saddened in this one.  I have my own opinions on it that I wont share out of respect but what is it that makes this tragedy stand out more than the thousand that happen all over the world every year.  Bradford and Ibrox were two huge footballing tragedies but why are we not made to feel like a bad person for not paying our respects everyday to that?

 

Do people honestly believe that if a tragedy happened at Hearts, anyone outside Hearts would give the slightest shite 27 years later? I?m telling you that the answer is no.  As I said earlier in this thread I really hope that this is closure I really hope it is.  The people that have no loss or involvement in this horrible day simply can?t keep the perpetual grief going. It has to end.  It was a sad sad day and my thoughts are with all of those affected (and I mean really affected not the people who think they were or are because they read an article on it) but life is just way too short. 

 

No other tragedy gets as much column inches or air time 27 years after it and that is just not right ? it really really isn?t.  All tragedies are of equal harrowing sadness whether it has been covered up or whatever.  230,000 people died in a Tsunami in 2004 and how many f?ks are given today? Zero.

 

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure.  Lets move on. 

 

The very fact that 'The Sun' and 'The Times' are the only two papers not to carry the story on their front pages, whilst every other major newspaper does, is drawing attention to themselves.

Given the sun's previous with this case they could have finally drawn a line under their part in the slur which went on during the aftermath of the tragedy and even if they didn't apologise, but at least carry the story on their front page, but they have chosen not to, the reason why, only they can answer.

[Brandt]

 

 

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure. Lets move on.

Have you passed on your thoughts and sadness to Jewish people and Pakistani people throughout the years?

[Justin Z]

No, re-read my post. I was saying, not implying, that it was the pushing, not the presence, of ticketless fans that caused the crush. 

 

I understand where you're coming from better now but the conclusion is still the same.  There is no reason to think that pushing to try to get within sight of the field is going to cause death, whether you had a ticket or not.  This is the lawyer card coming out because I did actually go to school for this otherwise useless stuff--there is no foreseeability that trying to push toward the front of a crowd is going to kill people.  Not possessing a ticket doesn't change that.  Foreseeability is a really basic common law of torts concept.  So even if we were to accept without evidence, without inquest, and just take for granted that there was pushing going on, even a lot of pushing, there can be no blame.

[luckydug]

No, re-read my post. I was saying, not implying, that it was the pushing, not the presence, of ticketless fans that caused the crush.

 

Football fans have been jostling and shoving to get in and out of matches for over a hundred years.

Fans just doing what fans do. That is why the Police were there in the first place.

It's called crowd control.

[Brandt]

I did not fail to recognise that fact. My point was about the minority who did not have tickets but wanted to get into the game anyway without any thought for the consequences.

Thats absolutely mental.

 

If i go to a game on the day, hoping to secure a ticket from someone, im sorry but the last thing on my mind is that im going to cause a tragedy in doing so.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Brandt

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I do not disagree with any of this and in particular the point that the blame lies with fans behaviour in general over a long period of time. What I am saying is that the fans who were trying to push their way in on this tragic day should not be exempted from this blame.

 

They should be exempt from blame because they could not have been expected to know that the crowd had built up to a dangerous level. It's reasonable to expect that if you've got a ticket for a game, the stadium's capacity can cope. The only reason they all headed down the tunnel was because there didn't seem to be any other entry point.  They thought that was the way into the whole terrace.

 

Heysel was different and it's disappointing to see that brought up on here. Supporters were to blame for that and if truth be told, I don't think Liverpool have ever covered themselves in glory with their handling of that disaster. But Heysel and Hillsborough are completely separate incidents and in no way comparable.

[i8hibsh]

The very fact that 'The Sun' and 'The Times' are the only two papers not to carry the story on their front pages, whilst every other major newspaper does, is drawing attention to themselves.

Given the sun's previous with this case they could have finally drawn a line under their part in the slur which went on during the aftermath of the tragedy and even if they didn't apologise, but at least carry the story on their front page, but they have chosen not to, the reason why, only they can answer.

 

I really don't care the slightest shite about any of those papers. Never read them so it is nothing to me.  I do get the feeling though it would've been a no win situation.  If they had went with the story it would have been a big uproar of 'How dare they start caring now'.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I did not fail to recognise that fact. My point was about the minority who did not have tickets but wanted to get into the game anyway without any thought for the consequences.

 

How many supporters did not have tickets?

[Bridge of Djoum]

Ah ok then, sorry chief.  Never realised you ran this show.

I don't think i have ever agreed with lewis before, but on this occasion he is right. You don't have the mental capacity to fully debate or even understand the issues involved in this story.

 

At least Malinga, (it seems) has realised he's made an arse of himself and bowed out of the thread, you're continuing to dig an ever deepening hole for yourself.

 

Do yourself a big favour, shut up.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I really don't care the slightest shite about any of those papers. Never read them so it is nothing to me.  I do get the feeling though it would've been a no win situation.  If they had went with the story it would have been a big uproar of 'How dare they start caring now'.

 

The Times only needed to run the story. Any sort of presence on the front page would have been fine (and in fairness their second edition carried a pic of the families but, I suspect, only after the paper's own staff kicked off. Their sports desk has some big Liverpool fans on it).

 

The Sun should have bitten the bullet and done another big apology. That would at least have drawn a line and shown some humility.

[i8hibsh]

I don't think i have ever agreed with lewis before, but on this occasion he is right. You don't have the mental capacity to fully debate or even understand the issues involved in this story.

 

At least Malinga, (it seems) has realised he's made an arse of himself and bowed out of the thread, you're continuing to dig an ever deepening hole for yourself.

 

Do yourself a big favour, shut up.

 

You seem to think that you care just that little bit more than everyone else which I find quite bizarre.  You also (clearly) feel you have more intelligence on this tragedy than the general public.  What I will tell you is that you have access to no more or less information on this tragedy than myself and every single person on this thread.  This is a FACT I would happily debate with you.  I have my opinion and you have yours. You are for other people having different opinions to yourself yeah?

[i8hibsh]

The Times only needed to run the story. Any sort of presence on the front page would have been fine (and in fairness their second edition carried a pic of the families but, I suspect, only after the paper's own staff kicked off. Their sports desk has some big Liverpool fans on it).

 

The Sun should have bitten the bullet and done another big apology. That would at least have drawn a line and shown some humility.

 

They have apologised till they are blue in the face.  The people of Liverpool are just not interested or would it just be nice to hear? Would it actually have made any difference for another apology? I'm just not too sure.

[Bridge of Djoum]

You seem to think that you care just that little bit more than everyone else which I find quite bizarre.  You also (clearly) feel you have more intelligence on this tragedy than the general public.  What I will tell you is that you have access to no more or less information on this tragedy than myself and every single person on this thread.  This is a FACT I would happily debate with you.  I have my opinion and you have yours. You are for other people having different opinions to yourself yeah?

 

You seem to think that you care just that little bit more than everyone else which I find quite bizarre.  You also (clearly) feel you have more intelligence on this tragedy than the general public.  What I will tell you is that you have access to no more or less information on this tragedy than myself and every single person on this thread.  This is a FACT I would happily debate with you.  I have my opinion and you have yours. You are for other people having different opinions to yourself yeah?

I haven't voiced my opinion on the events of that day, at any point. I simply said I agreed with lewis.

 

For this reason, your post is a complete pile of shite.

[Buffalo Bill]

Putting the hapless, lying David Duckenfield in charge.

 

Allowing thousands of fans to converge onto just six turnstiles.

 

Failure to close the doors to the central pens.

 

No evacuation plan.

 

Ambulances and medical staff held back.

 

Coroner Popper's false claims that everyone had died by 3:15.

 

41 fans could've been resuscitated.  

 

Massive police cover-up.

 

Police chiefs feeding lies to the media.

 

116 police statements were tampered with.

 

Crusty old Tories leading the initial enquiry.

 

West Midlands police, investigating the disaster knew about the cover-up but did nothing.

 

1997/98 stitch up by Lord Justice Smith and Jack Straw of New Liebour

 

 

The police, judiciary and government, all in bed with each other, all the time.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

They have apologised till they are blue in the face.  The people of Liverpool are just not interested or would it just be nice to hear? Would it actually have made any difference for another apology? I'm just not too sure.

 

Whether it would have made any difference is immaterial. It was the right thing to do.

[i8hibsh]

I haven't voiced my opinion on the events of that day, at any point. I simply said I agreed with lewis.

 

For this reason, your post is a complete pile of shite.

 

 

 

 

Agreeing with 'Lewis' is very much voicing your opinion on that day.  To say I am full of shite when I give my opinion is you voicing yours.

[i8hibsh]

Whether it would have made any difference is immaterial. It was the right thing to do.

 

Since when do newspapers do the right thing?

[Diego10]

It's absolutely mental folk can't accept that what happened wasn't down to tickettless fans.

 

There was crushing outside as there were turnstile problems, and many fans with tickets couldn't get in. The police failed to delay kick off, opened a Gate they shouldn't have, and failed to direct people to the less crowded side pens.

 

Simple, catastrophic mistakes. Not deliberate, but with horrific consequences.

 

The subsequent cover up has been why folk have spent 27 years campaigning to have the names of the fans cleared.

[Bridge of Djoum]

Agreeing with 'Lewis' is very much voicing your opinion on that day.  To say I am full of shite when I give my opinion is you voicing yours.

Tell me, agreeing with him that you lack the intelligence to debate this subject in what way voices my opinion of the events?

[Thomaso]

Many have opinions which are based on not being fully engaged in this tragedy.

 

I ask you all just for a minute to just consider this scenario -

 

* Hearts were playing a SC semi final at old Hampden.

 

* A similar disaster unfolded and 96 Hearts fans lost their lives.

 

* One of them was your father, brother or son.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Since when do newspapers do the right thing?

 

You're defeating your own argument there.

[Nookie Bear]

Putting the hapless, lying David Duckenfield in charge.

 

Allowing thousands of fans to converge onto just six turnstiles.

 

Failure to close the doors to the central pens.

 

No evacuation plan.

 

Ambulances and medical staff held back.

 

Coroner Popper's false claims that everyone had died by 3:15.

 

41 fans could've been resuscitated.  

 

Massive police cover-up.

 

Police chiefs feeding lies to the media.

 

116 police statements were tampered with.

 

Crusty old Tories leading the initial enquiry.

 

West Midlands police, investigating the disaster knew about the cover-up but did nothing.

 

1997/98 stitch up by Lord Justice Smith and Jack Straw of New Liebour

 

 

The police, judiciary and government, all in bed with each other, all the time.  

 

I wonder how the Football Association has escaped scrutiny here.

 

There were problems at Hillsborough previous to 1989 and yet it was chosen again as a venue (Highbury was not considered because they refused to put up fences?), despite the fact it did not have the required safety certificate.

 

What I don't know is if it would have been given the safety certificate had it actually been assessed. On the basis of what grounds were like back then, it is distinctly possible? Sheffield Wednesday as a club may end up in the dock over this now.

[i8hibsh]

You're defeating your own argument there.

 

 

I'm not arguing over newspapers.  I don't really give a shite. 

[Bridge of Djoum]

I want to apologise for questioning a posters mental capacity, rather than celebrating the fact justice has been delivered.

 

Systemic culpability, Liverpool fans absolved. That really is all that matters. And those are the facts.

 

Let's now hope that if there are to be criminal proceedings against those held in any way responsible, that justice prevails again, they are held to account, and there shall be no shoddy cover-ups. Perhaps then the families will have real closure.

[Golden Vision]

I understand where you're coming from better now but the conclusion is still the same.  There is no reason to think that pushing to try to get within sight of the field is going to cause death, whether you had a ticket or not.  This is the lawyer card coming out because I did actually go to school for this otherwise useless stuff--there is no foreseeability that trying to push toward the front of a crowd is going to kill people.  Not possessing a ticket doesn't change that.  Foreseeability is a really basic common law of torts concept.  So even if we were to accept without evidence, without inquest, and just take for granted that there was pushing going on, even a lot of pushing, there can be no blame.

In response to this and several other points, look at the text of Question 7: "Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?". Nothing about the foreseeability of the consequences. Nothing about the crush inside the pens, just the situation that caused the police to open the gate. You may choose to believe that all these fans had tickets and none intended to force their way into the game without one. My knowledge and experience of having been born, brought up and actively supported football in Liverpool alongside such fans does not allow me such a generous view.

[Golden Vision]

Thats absolutely mental.

 

If i go to a game on the day, hoping to secure a ticket from someone, im sorry but the last thing on my mind is that im going to cause a tragedy in doing so.

So if you did not get a ticket you would just try to push your way in without one? You and a few hundred others doing that would cause a dangerous situation.

[Brandt]

So if you did not get a ticket you would just try to push your way in without one? You and a few hundred others doing that would cause a dangerous situation.

I'll leave it to the other posters who can be bothered biting.

 

It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if this was Malinga.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Brandt

[Justin Z]

In response to this and several other points, look at the text of Question 7: "Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?". Nothing about the foreseeability of the consequences. Nothing about the crush inside the pens, just the situation that caused the police to open the gate. You may choose to believe that all these fans had tickets and none intended to force their way into the game without one. My knowledge and experience of having been born, brought up and actively supported football in Liverpool alongside such fans does not allow me such a generous view.

 

Correct.  Before you get to foreseeability you have to decide whether there was even fault.  The jury says no.  There will be no getting to the foreseeability step (or to the other element, proximate cause), if there's no wrongful action in the first place.

Edited to add: The actual text put before the jury is instructive.

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Justin Z

[Gene Parmesan]

In response to this and several other points, look at the text of Question 7: "Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?". Nothing about the foreseeability of the consequences. Nothing about the crush inside the pens, just the situation that caused the police to open the gate. You may choose to believe that all these fans had tickets and none intended to force their way into the game without one. My knowledge and experience of having been born, brought up and actively supported football in Liverpool alongside such fans does not allow me such a generous view.

It was adequately addressed during the inquest though, and the area was found to have around 300 less supporters than tickets that had been sold.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-jury-told-consider-entrance-10808664

 

Folk still seem to think that there were some huge oversights in the process. It lasted two years. the jury were in possession of all the facts, and all the arguments. More than anyone on this thread will ever know.

 

Their decision was more informed than your opinion. That is the end of it.

[RudiHMFC]

Many have opinions which are based on not being fully engaged in this tragedy.

 

I ask you all just for a minute to just consider this scenario -

 

* Hearts were playing a SC semi final at old Hampden.

 

* A similar disaster unfolded and 96 Hearts fans lost their lives.

 

* One of them was your father, brother or son.

You don't need to look at it in any other way than how it happened to understand how tragic it was/is, the fact they were Liverpool fans isn't really a factor in it, they were people, with families.

[kila]

The Guardian piece was very good writing, and of course, an intense but must read.

 

In a nutshell, folk attending events are in essence, sheep, and get directed by those in charge of controlling the crowd in such an event (be it stewards or police). You can led sheep of a cliff, and while crowds of humans won't willingly go off a cliff, they'll flow in the direction where there are being led.

 

The lack of a proper plan by the police (especially the one in charge of the event that day), meant they had no idea how to handle the flow of the crowd and why opening that gate to the already overcrowded pens as a bad idea. So, all these helpless fans, being directed by (mostly) clueless police officers, were being led to their ultimate death and those helpless fans could not foresee or stop the crush.

 

A horrific tragedy that would never had happened had proper crowd control been in place. The lies that came out, putting the blame on the fans, is disgusting. And to have those lies being admitted to in court is (early stages of) justice at last.

[Golden Vision]

It's absolutely mental folk can't accept that what happened wasn't down to tickettless fans.

 

There was crushing outside as there were turnstile problems, and many fans with tickets couldn't get in. The police failed to delay kick off, opened a Gate they shouldn't have, and failed to direct people to the less crowded side pens.

 

Simple, catastrophic mistakes. Not deliberate, but with horrific consequences.

 

The subsequent cover up has been why folk have spent 27 years campaigning to have the names of the fans cleared.

No, some cannot accept that ticketless fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation. This is not to deny or distract from the vast catalogue of errors nor the tissue of lies that followed. 

[Justin Z]

No, some cannot accept that ticketless fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation. This is not to deny or distract from the vast catalogue of errors nor the tissue of lies that followed. 

 

Gene's link above really does put the ticketless fans thing to bed.  Since fewer people than tickets sold passed through the gate, there could've been that many more ticketless fans present with exactly the same catastrophic result.  It had nothing to do with them.  That's exactly what the jury considered in question 7, and it's why they never got to proximate cause or foreseeability.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Justin Z

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

In response to this and several other points, look at the text of Question 7: "Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?". Nothing about the foreseeability of the consequences. Nothing about the crush inside the pens, just the situation that caused the police to open the gate. You may choose to believe that all these fans had tickets and none intended to force their way into the game without one. My knowledge and experience of having been born, brought up and actively supported football in Liverpool alongside such fans does not allow me such a generous view.

 

It's absolutely the case that in the 1980s, Liverpool's fans had a reputation for turning up at games without tickets. That's a fact. But the point here is that the jury has concluded that ticketless fans were not a contributing factor to the disaster. They're saying the disaster would most likely have happened regardless.

 

If you read back about the semi-finals in 1987 and 1981 then you'll think that they're probably right.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

 

Massive police cover-up.

 

Police chiefs feeding lies to the media.

 

police statements were tampered with.

 

 

 

And only 5 years previously we had seen the same things happen during the Miners strike, in what has now become known as the 'Battle of Orgreave'

 

Oh, and the Police force that day, well it just happened to be South Yorkshire Police Force.

 

I wonder how many, if any of the senior officers on duty that day were also on duty at Hillsborough?

 

I also wonder just how far up the food chain the cover-up in both cases went?

[Golden Vision]

It was adequately addressed during the inquest though, and the area was found to have around 300 less supporters than tickets that had been sold.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-jury-told-consider-entrance-10808664

 

Folk still seem to think that there were some huge oversights in the process. It lasted two years. the jury were in possession of all the facts, and all the arguments. More than anyone on this thread will ever know.

 

Their decision was more informed than your opinion. That is the end of it.

My statements were based on my experience, not my opinion.

 

As to why the jury answered that question as No - the people of Liverpool were insulted, traduced, deceived and lied to for 27 years - I can only speculate that perhaps the jury felt that to answer Yes to that question would be too much for them to bear. Now that is just opinion.

[Justin Z]

Don't think so.  They had the out, as I just posted, of then answering the second bit about the behaviour being unusual or unforeseeable.  They didn't do that--they went all the way and said the fans had zero impact.  They looked at the evidence available and came to that conclusion, end of.

[Justin Z]

Also, GV, there's a reason why "prior personal experience" is considered irrelevant or even wrongly prejudicial testimony in most cases in the courtroom--because it has nothing to do with the events in question, which renders its usefulness on approximately the same level as opinion's usefulness.

[LeftBack]

Apologies for the ramble but I sometimes use this forum as a cathartic release - feel free to disagree although this is more just a personal reflection rather than trying to enter into a debate.

 

Like many football fans Hillsborough is a subject that provokes intense emotions for me. I think it because for many, myself included, I could in some small way identify with what happened on that horrific day as, unlike other disasters, there was a feeling of 'there but for the grace of God'. I cried last night, as I cry almost everytime I hear details about Hillsborough.

I dont know how soon I knew - in almost a six-sense way - that these fans were unlawfully killed but it was pretty early on and despite of all the early 'evidence'. All the football fans I know, from different clubs, and with whom Ive spoken to seemed to know as well - if this disaster was caused by anyone, the most likely to be behind it were the police because of the evidence based on our own experiences.

When I started going to football in the mid-80s there is no doubt football fans as a collective were treated as 'animals' purely based on the actions of a proportionate minority. We were herded and coralled. You stood surrounded by dirt and litter. There was, at times, a fear of being 'attacked' by the other 'animals' in different pens. You were not allowed to speak to police officers - any enquiry or suggestion things werent right were met with the threat of arrest. We put up with conditions that were, at times, frightening - possibly because that was part of the 'thrill' and also because you knew no better and there was no-one you could really complain to. On more than one occasion I experienced having the air squeezed out of me and pressure on limbs becoming increasingly painful.

Im 40 and am conscious Im now starting to become the 40-year-olds I laughed at when I was 15-25 BUT on this one occasion I feel no shame in simply saying - if you werent there you have no comprehension as to what it was like. Football has fundamentally changed since and because of Hillsborough. Standing on any crumbling terracing unable to move properly, swaying and, if you were unlucky, being pinned against the barriers, whilst all the time literally being caged in was thrilling but probably only the same way white-knuckle rides are thrilling - because they are based on danger.

 

Forums are obviously based on differences of opinion but this is the first thread where I have truly found some posts abhorrent. Never mind being ashamed to support the same team as some - Im ashamed to share the same planet. Everyone has a right to an opinion but in a civilised society we should also be able to accept there are times when that opinion is going to touch people's emotions in a way that goes way beyond upsetting them because you think Neilson should be sacked or Alexander replaced.

 

The evidence is overwhelming and, as some excellent posters have pointed out, it is based on three facts which are irrefutable and which there is no basis for debate other than by those whose motives are questionable. Firstly - no matter what the behaviour of Liverpool fans on the day was (and there is nothing but allegations it was anything other than acceptable) the evidence from three (?) independent sources who poured over evidence instead of simply speaking to some bloke in a pub or taking a press release from an agency in Sheffield was that the fans DID NOTHING to contribute to the disaster. The Liverpool fans DID NOTHING to contribute to the disaster.

Secondly, like most disasters, there was a collection of mistakes made by infallible humans, none of which were 'malicious' but which nevertheless were mistakes which could have been avoided and which if they had been avoided 96 people wouldnt have died on that day.

Thirdly - and like others this is the point that makes me the most angry - was there was a conspiracy not just to cover up mistakes (which is understandable up to a point) but to cover up in such a way as to blame others. That is disgusting, criminal and I hope that none of those who contributed to it - and like many conspiracies - there are many, live every single day of their lives in torment over what they did. Hopefully for some in a prison cell.

 I also hope the Sun and the Times - hated before today - suffer a slow death and the vile people who have caused untold misery (for years at those papers) are forced to retrain into jobs which might actually repay their debt to society.

[Justin Z]

I wish my cathartic releases were as sensible, well written and conscientious as yours.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Greenbank2]

I've not read this whole thread and so this maybe have been raised. For me, the commentary on the outcome is missing a huge point. There is no doubt that some very serious, fatal errors were made by the police and that what caused the tragedy. How the individuals involved are held accountable is now for others to decide. What concerns me more is the subsequent cover-up and why and how this was allowed to happen. Senior Police, Politicians, Judiciary, Local Authorities, media owners etc etc (AKA "Establishment") have been shown to have been involved in a despicable cover up. Remember the background at the time , only a few years after the miners strike, was one in which these instruments of state were regarded as Thatcher's personal enforcers. The establishment regarded themselves as rightful guardians of the British State and would do whatever they thought right to protect themselves and the structures which enabled them to control the state. That included regarding football and those who attend it, as the nations plebiscite who should be forced to bend to the rule of law as defined and interpreted by the Establishment.

 

This whole Establishment is underpinned by the Monarchy, the class system and honours system. I often think "what has changed?" Sure, there are new laws and accountability that should prevent another tragedy of this nature, but exactly the same level of cover up and protection is just as evident in some modern day attrocities. I don't mean to offend, and I know there have been no deaths in the same way, but who has gone to jail as a result of the 2008 financial collapse? In fact we see the Establishment going from strength to strength.

 

This verdict exonerates the victims, but the establishment will make sure that the focus now remains on this tragedy in isolation instead of opening up the discussion and focus on those who promoted, conducted and condoned the cover up and whether these attitudes and instruments of state remain pervasive today.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

The whole thing for me just smacks of hindsight, blame dodging and blame seeking. Whoever did nothing after the fairly severe crush in 81 and then the minor crush in 87 probably carries more responsibility than the hapless cowardly idiots who organised 89.

 

It will never bring them back sadly for all those families, the horrific nature of the deaths deserved more than the abomination that was to follow from the Police. They found themselves in a terrible dilemma at 2.50 due to their poor planning. Had they shut the tunnel I daresay the decision to open the gate may have proved to be one that would have been praised.

 

Duckenfield I believe should be done for perjury, I certainly don't sympathise with him, but nor can he blamed for everything that went wrong that day, and so very much did, beyond his 2 catastrophic decisions.

[John Findlay]

Hillsborough in my lifetime was the fourth tragedy at a football ground to cause great loss of live as in the deaths being in double figures.

The others being.

Ibrox

Heysel

and Bradford.

 

Only Heysel could be blamed to a certain degree on the behaviour of supporters. Ironically I had just sailed from Maples on the morning of Heysel and all pictures on television I saw were courtesy of Italian television (RAI).

 

Ibrox lead to Rangers building a safe all seated stadium which as a stadium is up there with the best. Rangers did this off their own back and are due tremendous credit for doing so.

 

Bradford. Was the beginning for legislation for new Grandstands and safe seating.

 

Hillsborough: In many ways is the most tragic of all. The loss of life is bad enough but, Hillsborough's legacy will be the total disgraceful dishonesty of the British establishment from the high echolocation of government down to a lowly Police Constable. Both Conservative and Labour governments from 1989-2010 should be brought to task. They have lied through their back teeth.

 

Sadly this won't happen as they will look after each others back.

 

DuckEnfield will be prosecuted and quite correctly so but he will be the highest ranking so to speak. There should be others as in former home secretaries but, the establishment aren't prepared to go that far. Sad but true.

 

The other legacy of Hillsborough is the majority of us now go and watch top football matches in relative safety in stadiums that are in the main fit for the 21st century. Some of us older fans think this has sanitised going to games but, if that is the price to prevent another Ibrox, Heysel, Bradford and Hillsborough then I personally believe it's a price worth paying.

 

Finally I do hope yesterday did bring forms of closure to all the grieving families and justice to a point has been done but, alas the high up liars as in ex government ministers will get away with it. The shite bags.