Hillsborough Verdict

[jake]

 

 

But the cover-up? No sympathy whatsoever. Those covering this up did that deliberately.

 

Absolutely this.

[Boab]

If thats the case, then he better get a good Lawyer.     It beggars belief that a Police commander, who's job is to control issues like this, orders the gate to be opened.  What on earth did he think he was doing?

 

 

I think you mean me here.  Apologies that I have not bought the books.    I wonder how come the inquest took 2 years if the obvious root cause is known and presumably agreed by all.

 

Sorry, mate, as I said, I wasn't being rude.

Your first post though asks why on earth he ordered the gate to be opened.....he was informed of serious crushing at the turnstiles and was told something had to be done.

Your second post about a root cause...sorry, there was not one cause, it was a catalogue of terrible errors starting from allowing  a build up of fans at the turnstiles, then opening the gate and not directing that overspill into the side sections, which he could see with his own eyes.

 

To then, with others, try and cover  up their fatal errors is, as far as i'm concerned,jail for a long time....and not just Duckenfield.

[CollyWolly]

I am NOT reading it. Christ I was greeting my eyes oot watching the news earlier !!!!

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

I am NOT reading it. Christ I was greeting my eyes oot watching the news earlier !!!!

I welled up. Real tears. It's harrowing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Diana Prince

[Boab]

On your original post you question the fans and end with a request it's all now dropped. And on this one you again have your say and make a statement referring to that being the end of it. Maybe it just seems you lob 'last word' grenades in and then leg it, but I appreciate that may be just how I read it. I'm not looking for an argument and you make some good points, but it reads like you expect all of us other blind idiots to be fooled unlike you who knows better. Again maybe it reads differently to the reader than the writer. I'm still not convinced the fans acted any differently to fans of the time, the authorities in this match DID. For the sake of the respect in not having good fans as im sure we both are, arguing over it, I'll agree it's best left. Apologies, genuinely, if any of my posts are a bit prickly. Like a lot of folk it's something that sits close to me. At the time it occurred I recall how much it affected me as a young fan. It's the first real news story that filled me with horror at a time when I could really grasp the detail of the reports. Football is the game of the working man / classes and the government at the time used Hillsborough cover up as a way to fling shite at the working classes. It's always disgusted me.

 

It still sits very close to me also.

 

The Aberdeen game the following week was very poignant....the scarves tied to the fence...the minute's silence.

 

A pretty heavy day at the football and one of those games I can't remember anything about.

 

To see the way the families have conducted themselves makes me feel a bit guilty about being so angry about it.

[Mollo]

It still sits very close to me also.

 

The Aberdeen game the following week was very poignant....the scarves tied to the fence...the minute's silence.

 

A pretty heavy day at the football and one of those games I can't remember anything about.

 

To see the way the families have conducted themselves makes me feel a bit guilty about being so angry about it.

Well put. I agree. I was thinking today that I recall the horror of the events, but I actually also remember the disgust at realising the pathetic lies told by McKenzie, and like your point it makes me feel guilty that I almost have more emotion associated towards those who lied and covered it up, Thatcher and co - than emotion I had at the time of feeling for the dead. I've dealt with folk dying in my own life, but the anger and astonishment aligned with lies and damage really are hard to say 'time heals' about.

[Boab]

Well put. I agree. I was thinking today that I recall the horror of the events, but I actually also remember the disgust at realising the pathetic lies told by McKenzie, and like your point it makes me feel guilty that I almost have more emotion associated towards those who lied and covered it up, Thatcher and co - than emotion I had at the time of feeling for the dead. I've dealt with folk dying in my own life, but the anger and astonishment aligned with lies and damage really are hard to say 'time heals' about.

 

A very well put post as well if you don't mind me saying.

 

I'm sure there was/is great anger there in some of the relatives but to watch the mothers talking of lost sons and daughters was heartbreaking.

 

When I, then, think of that **** McKenzie and others, the anger returns.

[deesidejambo]

Probably the best legacy from this was the creation of the all-seated stadiums and banning of open terraces.    Now I can take the missus and kids to games and don't feel unsafe.

 

At the time i was not sure about is as I, like others, enjoyed the visceral atmosphere in open terraces, but times change and I like the way football is now watched.

[jake]

[quote name="Boab" post="5362239"

 

When I, then, think of that **** McKenzie and others, the anger returns.

 

Aw aye mate.

And to think that rat still gets guest slots on question time etc.

 

He printed those stories despite being advised against doing so by his own journalists.

 

Be angry mate be livid.

 

What we do about it I don't know.

[Notts1874]

Front pages of Sun and Times make no mention of today's verdict.

 

Abhorrent institutions.

[Boab]

Aw aye mate.

And to think that rat still gets guest slots on question time etc.

 

He printed those stories despite being advised against doing so by his own journalists.

 

Be angry mate be livid.

 

What we do about it I don't know.

 

Some guys in my work think i'm unhinged when I refuse to get them that rag if i'm going to the shops !

 

" But i'm giving you the money, Boab "

 

**** off, i'm not getting it.

[deesidejambo]

Aw aye mate.

And to think that rat still gets guest slots on question time etc.

 

He printed those stories despite being advised against doing so by his own journalists.

 

Be angry mate be livid.

 

What we do about it I don't know.

In terms of what we do about it.

 

Guys like Mackenzie thrive because we buy their scabby Newspapers.   As long as people buy their papers, they will continue to inflame opinion.  So KBers stop buying tabloids forra start.

[Bindy Badgy]

Quite rightly a lot is made about what Kelvin Mackenzie came out with. However, I think that Bernard Ingram was even worse and he's refused to apologise.

 

I welled up. Real tears. It's harrowing.

Felt the same way listening to the statements made by the family members. Awful stuff.

[Gene Parmesan]

I am NOT reading it. Christ I was greeting my eyes oot watching the news earlier !!!!

I've no affinity to Liverpool. But I'm a football fan. A football fan who stood on terraces and can imagine the crush. Imagine the helplessness.

 

I'm a father who can only imagine, in my worst nightmares, the agony of what the mothers and fathers of the deceased had to go through.

 

But I can't imagine what it would be like to have my son or daughter smeared as caused their own death or the death of others for 27 years.

 

Not just to lack empathy, but to turn the guns on those most heinous affected by Hillsborough, is inhuman in my eyes.

 

That could have been any one of us.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

I've no affinity to Liverpool. But I'm a football fan. A football fan who stood on terraces and can imagine the crush. Imagine the helplessness.

 

I'm a father who can only imagine, in my worst nightmares, the agony of what the mothers and fathers of the deceased had to go through.

 

But I can't imagine what it would be like to have my son or daughter smeared as caused their own death or the death of others for 27 years.

 

Not just to lack empathy, but to turn the guns on those most heinous affected by Hillsborough, is inhuman in my eyes.

 

That could have been any one of us.

Great post. Also, that those doing the smearing went all the way up to the Prime Minister. The suffering must be unbearable.

[269miles]

I was talking to a Scouse workmate today after the verdict was announced - I don't know if he is red or blue. He told me that another Scouse  guy in the office fell apart when the verdict was announced. He was a kid at the time but it has destroyed his family - he lost a cousin at Hillsborough. Looking back , those guys never said a word during the whole of the inquest. It's almost as if they didn't trust anyone anymore and didn't believe that anyone , anywhere cared about the 96.

[CollyWolly]

I've no affinity to Liverpool. But I'm a football fan. A football fan who stood on terraces and can imagine the crush. Imagine the helplessness.

I'm a father who can only imagine, in my worst nightmares, the agony of what the mothers and fathers of the deceased had to go through.

But I can't imagine what it would be like to have my son or daughter smeared as caused their own death or the death of others for 27 years.

Not just to lack empathy, but to turn the guns on those most heinous affected by Hillsborough, is inhuman in my eyes.

That could have been any one of us.

I remember it like it was yesterday. We played Dundee at Dens park. An awful end of season game which we just went to for the banter.

 

On the way back, when it became apparent what had happened, none of us said a word.

 

I remember being in crowd sways back in those days. In the shed corner at Tynecastle mostly. I remember a cup replay vs Celtic where there was 40,000 people in Tynecastle and it was utterly dangerous now we think about it. Especially when the fighting started in the shed. Jesus that was scary. The big banked terrace at ER that they used to squeeze 10,000 Hearts fans into. A night game at Ayr where we scored and I ended up under a pile of bodies and couldn't breathe for half a minute until someone picked me up.

 

If your a football fan, a true football fan, you have to feel anger at this still. 96 innocent people who just wanted to see their team play and had the right to expect to do it safely. It was an accident waiting to happen in many ways and it could have been any number of clubs it happened to. Yes there are games I remember where it could have been us. Society and the establishment didn't give a toss about football fans back then. Some football fans in the 70's and 80's brought that upon all of us right enough but in general we were treated like shite.

 

These people will never get 'closure' How the hell do you get closure after all the years of lies by people covering their own arses. how can some people sleep knowing what they said and did before during and after that event. I hope the families take something from today that eases their pain. They deserve to have their pain eased. If Duckenfield going to jail eases their pain then he must go to jail. If the Sun newspaper going down the pan eases their pain then it must go down the pan and the football family of the United Kingdom has to ensure it does. If it takes millions of pounds in compensation to ease the pain then that has to be done.

 

Lastly, Hillsborough's a dreadful commentary on what this country used to be like not so long ago. Hillsborough typifies what this country was like under Thatcher. Lots of things have changed because of Hillsborough. Lots of good things have come out of it believe it or not.

 

JFT96. Good night to them all. May you finally rest in peace.

Edited April 26, 2016 by CollyWolly

[Governor Tarkin]

I'm calling sh!te on that.

 

He/She asks if Liverpool fans will accept their portion of the blame - Taken form the BBC website 7. Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury's answer: No

There is NO blame to accept, yet the posters suggestion to contrary is idiotic, disrespectful and just simply messed up.

Following this there is an irrelevant reference to Heysel! A nonchalant flippant remark that Liverpool fans have "forgotten" about the event of that day as if they are some how linked.

It is not asking questions that are acceptable, the poster is simply and foolishly making ill advised comments around a subject they are clearly out of their depth on.

What ever the driver is for these comments they should not be posted such pish.

Sorry Zen Jambo, but your reply probably goes a way to backing up Malinga's claim. No need for the aggresive tone with someone who sees things a different way from you. Facts prove points, not 'calling sh!te' on a post on an internet forum. The truth in this case has been borne out by the facts.

 

Justin Z, thanks for the reply. A thoughtful and well articulated post. Got me thinking. Cheers.

 

Chester Copperpot, sorry if this is an emotive subject for you. As football fans it should be emotive for us all, and as human beings it really is a whole pile of absolute horrible - I'd like to think that as human beings nobody would even entertain the notion that the football club which happened to be involved in the game had any bearing on the actions of the fans that day, nor the horror that subsequently unfolded. Peace and love, man.

[Golden Vision]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

This post has been vilified by many on this board and while I do not agree with some of the sweeping statements I'm afraid that to exclude the Liverpool fans from any blame was an astonishing decision, the motivation for which I can only guess is one of sensitivity.

 

The majority of Liverpool fans who died were completely blameless. They were the responsible ones who arrived at the ground with tickets on time. The reason for the crush outside, which led directly to the crush inside when the gate was opened, were the many fans who were ticketless who's intention was, basically, to push their way in. I know that it was the decision of the Police to open the gate but that was what the fans were hoping for in the first place.

 

How do I know this? I am from Liverpool and many supporters of my acquaintance considered it perfectly normal behavior to do this, having done so many times before. I was at the 1986 Cup Final and the crush outside Wembley was utterly terrifying for exactly the same reason. There was no segregation of supporters (and to our credit none needed) but there were many fans of both Everton and Liverpool without tickets hoping somehow to gain admission anyway - I know because I could hear them planning it.

 

It has been said that this was normal behavior of fans at the time and it was. What I do not understand is why this should absolve them from any portion of the blame for the extreme consequences that occurred on that day.

 

I recognise that there were many, many other contributory factors to the disaster. The incompetence of those responsible for crowd management has quite rightly been held up to scrutiny. However to ignore the irresponsibility of those who created the crush in the first place is to bury a small part of the truth of a tragedy that has already been polluted by too many lies.

[Ulysses]

David Conn's article moved me to tears tonight.

 

A haunting and brilliant piece of writing.

 

 

....... it was systematic of what was allowed at that time.  The treatment of football fans at that time was an absolute national disgrace. Duckenfield's admission that he was primarily concerned with fans behaviour rather than public safety sums it up for me.  The establishment absolutely hated football fans and allowed free rein for people who would have been at home in 1930/40s Germany to abuse them and ultimately cause the deaths of 96 innocent people, including kids. It makes it even worse that the establishment colluded in the cover up as some sort of payback for the 'loyalty' shown by SYP during the miners strike.

 

 

Well said.  It sums up what went wrong on April 15th 1989, and also what was completely wrong with government and the police in Britain in that era.  By rights, Government is supposed to be of, for and by the people, but too often it isn't - and it definitely wasn't in 80s Britain.  The first priority of the police is supposed to be the safety of the public, but football supporters (and working class people) simply were never on the list of people the police were supposed to serve and protect.

 

The victims of Hillsborough were unlawfully killed.  They were killed because the police got it horribly wrong - mistakenly, incompetently, arrogantly and maliciously wrong.  They were killed because the ambulance services did too little, too late.  The very emergency services whose job it was to look after them led them into pain, terror and the most awful deaths imaginable, and then sat back and failed to give them the treatment that might have saved most of them.

 

And then the same emergency services and their political masters engaged in a combination of deceit, cover-up and character assassination that defied description and that reached to the very highest levels of the political system.  The treatment of the victims and their families and friends in the aftermath of what happened at Hillsborough remains one of the most shameful and disgraceful incidents in modern British history.

 

Do the verdicts of unlawful killing represent justice?  Will they bring closure for the families of the victims?  That's not for us to say, I guess.  But 27 years is a dreadfully long time to have to wait to have the truth of what happened officially acknowledged.

 

Justice for the 96.  May they rest in peace. 

[Big Slim Stylee]

David Conn's video presentation is a concise version of how the day unfurled.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video

[Harry Palmer]

Malinga hates Liverpool.

 

Why? 

 

Golden Vision has appeared spouting pish about "ticketless fans" to back him up.

 

Must be a shite existence.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Those sharing memories of when it happen stirred up mine too.

 

I think I saw something about it on the news that morning, and couldn't imagine how it had happened -- just didn't make sense.  My 9th grade history teacher came in a bit overcome, unable to complete a sentence talking about it before closing her eyes and saying, "it's just awful!"

 

At the time I had no idea what football meant -- soccer was a sport played by the rich douchebags trying to be more "euro." 

 

In articles like the Guardian one, it's clear this never could have happened without a degree of institutional contempt for football fans as a whole.

[i8hibsh]

Malinga hates Liverpool.

 

Why?

 

Golden Vision has appeared spouting pish about "ticketless fans" to back him up.

 

Must be a shite existence.

Are you honestly asking why someone hates Liverpool out of shock?

[stevie]

A very emotional subject and a hard one to discuss.I have my own experiences of shocking policing at football matches back then (particularly at Parkhead)where it seemed the police were above reproach.

I was at dens park that day and remember it all vividly,initial reports were of a "crowd disturbance" in the Liverpool end.The coverage on the news channels was harrowing to watch but in the days that followed it was still being reported as drunken,ticketless fans that caused the heartbreaking events.Many of us (myself included) initially believed this as the sole cause.The behaviour of the police,the press and some of our politicians has been proven as absolutely disgraceful,criminal.

A couple of posters have commented on "ticketless fans",undoubtedly a factor in the events of Hillsborough but the police's responsibility to serve and protect was very sadly missing that day by people incompetent to carry out something that should have been second nature to them.

[Zen Jambo]

Sorry Zen Jambo, but your reply probably goes a way to backing up Malinga's claim. No need for the aggresive tone with someone who sees things a different way from you. Facts prove points, not 'calling sh!te' on a post on an internet forum. The truth in this case has been borne out by the facts.

 

Justin Z, thanks for the reply. A thoughtful and well articulated post. Got me thinking. Cheers.

 

Chester Copperpot, sorry if this is an emotive subject for you. As football fans it should be emotive for us all, and as human beings it really is a whole pile of absolute horrible - I'd like to think that as human beings nobody would even entertain the notion that the football club which happened to be involved in the game had any bearing on the actions of the fans that day, nor the horror that subsequently unfolded. Peace and love, man.

No sorry, no aggression here, merely stating the posters comments around Liverpool fans blame snd linking some line of thought to Heysel is just wrong. Unless you can explain the relevance.

 

Dressing it up as the inability to be able questions is absolutely false.

 

I'm joining CC and leaving it there.

 

Thanks

[Zen Jambo]

Sorry Zen Jambo, but your reply probably goes a way to backing up Malinga's claim. No need for the aggresive tone with someone who sees things a different way from you. Facts prove points, not 'calling sh!te' on a post on an internet forum. The truth in this case has been borne out by the facts.

 

Justin Z, thanks for the reply. A thoughtful and well articulated post. Got me thinking. Cheers.

 

Chester Copperpot, sorry if this is an emotive subject for you. As football fans it should be emotive for us all, and as human beings it really is a whole pile of absolute horrible - I'd like to think that as human beings nobody would even entertain the notion that the football club which happened to be involved in the game had any bearing on the actions of the fans that day, nor the horror that subsequently unfolded. Peace and love, man.

No sorry, no aggression here, merely stating the posters comments around Liverpool fans blame snd linking some line of thought to Heysel is just wrong. Unless you can explain the relevance.

 

Dressing it up as the inability to be able questions is absolutely false.

 

I'm joining CC and leaving it there.

 

Thanks

[Governor Tarkin]

No sorry, no aggression here, merely stating the posters comments around Liverpool fans blame snd linking some line of thought to Heysel is just wrong. Unless you can explain the relevance.

 

Dressing it up as the inability to be able questions is absolutely false.

 

I'm joining CC and leaving it there.

 

Thanks

Yeh, the Heysel link was un-called for, I'm sure I'd already mentioned that. And I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was dressing anything up as anything either.

 

I guess I've made my points on this topic and others have summed my memories and experience of the issue up as well as I could so I'll bow out now too.

 

Cheers.

[Golden Vision]

Malinga hates Liverpool.

 

Why? 

 

Golden Vision has appeared spouting pish about "ticketless fans" to back him up.

 

Must be a shite existence.

 

So are you saying that every fan who tried to get into the Leppings Lane end actually had a ticket? What are your credentials to back up your assertion that what I said was incorrect?

[Pistol1874]

So are you saying that every fan who tried to get into the Leppings Lane end actually had a ticket? What are your credentials to back up your assertion that what I said was incorrect?

At the risk of repeating myself, drunk fans, rowdy fans and fans without tickets was a regular occurrence and would not have been an issue had the police and planning agencies' failure not been so complete.

The reason we know this, is the lengths those responsible have gone to in covering up the truth.

They fought to hide it for 27 years, all too aware of its scale.

The fans to blame are those from all clubs, who were rioting on the terraces previously and who gave an anti-football (anti-working class if you like) establishment reasons to erect fences, penning people like you would animals.

The establishment view of the football fan / working class as animals continued in the language used in report by senior police at the time.

It seems fair to say that without the fence at Hillsborough, whilst injuries may have occurred, death was unlikely and certainly not 96 of them.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I welled up. Real tears. It's harrowing.

 

I have to admit, when the families stood outside the court yesterday and sang 'You'll never walk alone' I started to well up, you could just feel the raw emotion, the relief, all those years to finally get the truth.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Nookie Bear]

At the risk of repeating myself, drunk fans, rowdy fans and fans without tickets was a regular occurrence and would not have been an issue had the police and planning agencies' failure not been so complete.

The reason we know this, is the lengths those responsible have gone to in covering up the truth.

They fought to hide it for 27 years, all too aware of its scale.

The fans to blame are those from all clubs, who were rioting on the terraces previously and who gave an anti-football (anti-working class if you like) establishment reasons to erect fences, penning people like you would animals.

The establishment view of the football fan / working class as animals continued in the language used in report by senior police at the time.

It seems fair to say that without the fence at Hillsborough, whilst injuries may have occurred, death was unlikely and certainly not 96 of them.

 

Nicely put.

 

It is difficult to understand what following football in the 1980's was like from a 2016 perspective, and how we were perceived (quite rightly in some instances, in hindsight).

 

However, there were clearly additional factors in place at Hillsborough - or not put in place, as it were - that made the tragedy almost inevitable in hindsight.

[Mollo]

I wonder if that rat McKenzie will get away with his atrocious acts now the police force are being found guilty. Personally I hope not.

 

He knowingly lied and laid down massive blame and damage onto people who had already been tortured enough, and his lies fueled the time it has taken to resolve the blame game.

 

Kelvin McKenzie lied and damaged people caught up in the worst cover up in modern times - simply to sell papers and for his own callous, arrogant pride.

 

His part in all of this is no minor one. I hope he isn't forgotten the scumbag.

[Boab]

I wonder if that rat McKenzie will get away with his atrocious acts now the police force are being found guilty. Personally I hope not.

 

He knowingly lied and laid down massive blame and damage onto people who had already been tortured enough, and his lies fueled the time it has taken to resolve the blame game.

 

Kelvin McKenzie lied and damaged people caught up in the worst cover up in modern times - simply to sell papers and for his own callous, arrogant pride.

 

His part in all of this is no minor one. I hope he isn't forgotten the scumbag.

 

Here hear.

 

I hope he is a worried man.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

At the risk of repeating myself, drunk fans, rowdy fans and fans without tickets was a regular occurrence and would not have been an issue had the police and planning agencies' failure not been so complete.

The reason we know this, is the lengths those responsible have gone to in covering up the truth.

They fought to hide it for 27 years, all too aware of its scale.

The fans to blame are those from all clubs, who were rioting on the terraces previously and who gave an anti-football (anti-working class if you like) establishment reasons to erect fences, penning people like you would animals.

The establishment view of the football fan / working class as animals continued in the language used in report by senior police at the time.

It seems fair to say that without the fence at Hillsborough, whilst injuries may have occurred, death was unlikely and certainly not 96 of them.

 

I agree with this, the culture of football in the late 70's and 80's brought about the need for fencing and cages, and the Hillsborough tragedy could have happen at almost any ground in the country, even Tynecastle when we had the fences up.  

The year before at Hillsborough there was almost a tragedy with crushing and the lessons weren't learnt.

 

Certain members and former members of the Police force will now quite rightly face the possibility of criminal charges.

They have IMO instead of just admitting that they fecked up and were completely overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the tragedy which unfolded before them that day, lied, covered up, bullied, intimidated and changed statements for the one reason of shifting the blame from them to the victims and continued to do so even at this inquest, even in light of overwhelming evidence which showed they had lied.

[N Lincs Jambo]

I remember it like it was yesterday. We played Dundee at Dens park. An awful end of season game which we just went to for the banter.

 

On the way back, when it became apparent what had happened, none of us said a word.

 

I remember being in crowd sways back in those days. In the shed corner at Tynecastle mostly. I remember a cup replay vs Celtic where there was 40,000 people in Tynecastle and it was utterly dangerous now we think about it. Especially when the fighting started in the shed. Jesus that was scary. The big banked terrace at ER that they used to squeeze 10,000 Hearts fans into. A night game at Ayr where we scored and I ended up under a pile of bodies and couldn't breathe for half a minute until someone picked me up.

 

If your a football fan, a true football fan, you have to feel anger at this still. 96 innocent people who just wanted to see their team play and had the right to expect to do it safely. It was an accident waiting to happen in many ways and it could have been any number of clubs it happened to. Yes there are games I remember where it could have been us. Society and the establishment didn't give a toss about football fans back then. Some football fans in the 70's and 80's brought that upon all of us right enough but in general we were treated like shite.

 

These people will never get 'closure' How the hell do you get closure after all the years of lies by people covering their own arses. how can some people sleep knowing what they said and did before during and after that event. I hope the families take something from today that eases their pain. They deserve to have their pain eased. If Duckenfield going to jail eases their pain then he must go to jail. If the Sun newspaper going down the pan eases their pain then it must go down the pan and the football family of the United Kingdom has to ensure it does. If it takes millions of pounds in compensation to ease the pain then that has to be done.

 

Lastly, Hillsborough's a dreadful commentary on what this country used to be like not so long ago. Hillsborough typifies what this country was like under Thatcher. Lots of things have changed because of Hillsborough. Lots of good things have come out of it believe it or not.

 

JFT96. Good night to them all. May you finally rest in peace.

 

Great post.

 

Like you I was at Dens that day standing behind the goal at the old TCK end. No crushing there even though our support was half decent as it was a meaningless end of season game. I think something was read over the tannoy at half-time that the Liverpool game had been abandoned and that a couple of people had lost their lives. By the time we got back to Edinburgh it was about 30-40 and the sheer scale of the tragedy was emerging.

 

I remember the line being peddled very early on about the fans "forcing a gate" and you kind of accepted it as you knew it was something which could happen in those days. To think it's 27 years that it has taken for the families finally to get justice is a national disgrace.

 

As an irrelevant aside, I always remember exactly where I was that day when it happened like CollyWolly does. One thing I can never remember is the Hearts score from that day. I always have to look it up on London Hearts. I've no doubt I'll have to do the same next year.

 

Finally though JFT96. YNWA!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I wonder if that rat McKenzie will get away with his atrocious acts now the police force are being found guilty. Personally I hope not.

 

He knowingly lied and laid down massive blame and damage onto people who had already been tortured enough, and his lies fueled the time it has taken to resolve the blame game.

 

Kelvin McKenzie lied and damaged people caught up in the worst cover up in modern times - simply to sell papers and for his own callous, arrogant pride.

 

His part in all of this is no minor one. I hope he isn't forgotten the scumbag.

 

Even today the 'Sun' is one of only two newspapers not to carry this story on it's front page (the other is the Times).

The 'Sun' has a piece on page 8-9 I believe, the editorial says that they have already apologised, however I think the least they could have done was to issue another front page apology, today of all days.

 

The response of 'The Sun' today is just not good enough, especially after all the damage that paper did after the tragedy.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Even today the 'Sun' is one of only two newspapers not to carry this story on it's front page (the other is the Times).

The 'Sun' has a piece on page 8-9 I believe, the editorial says that they have already apologised, however I think the least they could have done was to issue another front page apology, today of all days.

 

The response of 'The Sun' today is just not good enough, especially after all the damage that paper did after the tragedy.

 

The Times is the sister paper of the Sun. I didn't know that until about 2 mins ago.

[luckydug]

So are you saying that every fan who tried to get into the Leppings Lane end actually had a ticket? What are your credentials to back up your assertion that what I said was incorrect?

 

Just because some fans did not have tickets is not enough on its own to say

that fans caused the crush.

If the Police had put barriers in place and checked tickets before fans got to the Stadium there would have been no ticketless fans around the entrance. That in my opinion is why no blame has been has been attached to the fans.

It was up to the Police to organize the security at the ground they failed miserably.

[Justin Z]

^ Correct.  What Golden Vision is positing is question begging--assuming the conclusion of the very thing he's trying to argue, his questions implying that the mere presence of ticketless fans necessarily places blame upon them.

[Deans Jambo]

Just because some fans did not have tickets is not enough on its own to say

that fans caused the crush.

If the Police had put barriers in place and checked tickets before fans got to the Stadium there would have been no ticketless fans around the entrance. That in my opinion is why no blame has been has been attached to the fans.

It was up to the Police to organize the security at the ground they failed miserably.

Exactly. South Yorkshire Police put a man in charge who had no knowledge of managing a football match and knew little about the stadium either. The previous match day commander knew to close off access to the centre pens when they became full. There was plenty space in the pens at either side.

[N Lincs Jambo]

Even today the 'Sun' is one of only two newspapers not to carry this story on it's front page (the other is the Times).

The 'Sun' has a piece on page 8-9 I believe, the editorial says that they have already apologised, however I think the least they could have done was to issue another front page apology, today of all days.

 

The response of 'The Sun' today is just not good enough, especially after all the damage that paper did after the tragedy.

 

What a surprise the Sun isn't carrying it front page. I read in Kenny Dalglish's autobiography that after sales of the Sun collapsed in Liverpool, Kelvin McKenzie phoned Kenny Dalglish up and asked him what the Sun could do to put things right. Kenny said they could run a front page with two words on it in bold print saying simply " WE LIED!". Kelvin said sorry Kenny we can't do that. I believe Dalglish just put the phone down on him. Total scumbag!

[luckydug]

^ Correct. What Golden Vision is positing is question begging--assuming the conclusion of the very thing he's trying to argue, his questions implying that the mere presence of ticketless fans necessarily places blame upon them.

 

He is failing to recognize that the majority of fans who poured through the open gate would have had tickets.There were only ten turnstiles to cater for the 10000 fans entering that end of the ground.

[i8hibsh]

Even today the 'Sun' is one of only two newspapers not to carry this story on it's front page (the other is the Times).

The 'Sun' has a piece on page 8-9 I believe, the editorial says that they have already apologised, however I think the least they could have done was to issue another front page apology, today of all days.

 

The response of 'The Sun' today is just not good enough, especially after all the damage that paper did after the tragedy.

 

Why must they continue to apologise?  They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended.  They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years.  Do you think they need to continue to apologise indefinitely?  Newspapers are on their last legs anyway.  They will not be around for much longer. 

 

Hillsborough and Lockerbie were the two main tragedies that were the classic ?I know where I was when it happened? so I have always been interested and deeply saddened in this one.  I have my own opinions on it that I wont share out of respect but what is it that makes this tragedy stand out more than the thousand that happen all over the world every year.  Bradford and Ibrox were two huge footballing tragedies but why are we not made to feel like a bad person for not paying our respects everyday to that?

 

Do people honestly believe that if a tragedy happened at Hearts, anyone outside Hearts would give the slightest shite 27 years later? I?m telling you that the answer is no.  As I said earlier in this thread I really hope that this is closure I really hope it is.  The people that have no loss or involvement in this horrible day simply can?t keep the perpetual grief going. It has to end.  It was a sad sad day and my thoughts are with all of those affected (and I mean really affected not the people who think they were or are because they read an article on it) but life is just way too short. 

 

No other tragedy gets as much column inches or air time 27 years after it and that is just not right ? it really really isn?t.  All tragedies are of equal harrowing sadness whether it has been covered up or whatever.  230,000 people died in a Tsunami in 2004 and how many f?ks are given today? Zero.

 

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure.  Lets move on. 

 

[luckydug]

Why must they continue to apologise? They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended. They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years. Do you think they need to continue to apologise indefinitely? Newspapers are on their last legs anyway. They will not be around for much longer.

Hillsborough and Lockerbie were the two main tragedies that were the classic ?I know where I was when it happened? so I have always been interested and deeply saddened in this one. I have my own opinions on it that I wont share out of respect but what is it that makes this tragedy stand out more than the thousand that happen all over the world every year. Bradford and Ibrox were two huge footballing tragedies but why are we not made to feel like a bad person for not paying our respects everyday to that?

Do people honestly believe that if a tragedy happened at Hearts, anyone outside Hearts would give the slightest shite 27 years later? I?m telling you that the answer is no. As I said earlier in this thread I really hope that this is closure I really hope it is. The people that have no loss or involvement in this horrible day simply can?t keep the perpetual grief going. It has to end. It was a sad sad day and my thoughts are with all of those affected (and I mean really affected not the people who think they were or are because they read an article on it) but life is just way too short.

No other tragedy gets as much column inches or air time 27 years after it and that is just not right ? it really really isn?t. All tragedies are of equal harrowing sadness whether it has been covered up or whatever. 230,000 people died in a Tsunami in 2004 and how many f?ks are given today? Zero.

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure. Lets move on.

 

A perfect example of how to miss the point

Do we not follow up on any criminal negligence just because a period of time has passed ?

[CollyWolly]

Why must they continue to apologise?  They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended.  They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years.  Do you think they need to continue to apologise indefinitely?  Newspapers are on their last legs anyway.  They will not be around for much longer. 

 

Hillsborough and Lockerbie were the two main tragedies that were the classic ?I know where I was when it happened? so I have always been interested and deeply saddened in this one.  I have my own opinions on it that I wont share out of respect but what is it that makes this tragedy stand out more than the thousand that happen all over the world every year.  Bradford and Ibrox were two huge footballing tragedies but why are we not made to feel like a bad person for not paying our respects everyday to that?

 

Do people honestly believe that if a tragedy happened at Hearts, anyone outside Hearts would give the slightest shite 27 years later? I?m telling you that the answer is no.  As I said earlier in this thread I really hope that this is closure I really hope it is.  The people that have no loss or involvement in this horrible day simply can?t keep the perpetual grief going. It has to end.  It was a sad sad day and my thoughts are with all of those affected (and I mean really affected not the people who think they were or are because they read an article on it) but life is just way too short. 

 

No other tragedy gets as much column inches or air time 27 years after it and that is just not right ? it really really isn?t.  All tragedies are of equal harrowing sadness whether it has been covered up or whatever.  230,000 people died in a Tsunami in 2004 and how many f?ks are given today? Zero.

 

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure.  Lets move on. 

Some people ought to just stay away from this thread. Totally embarrassing yourself.

[i8hibsh]

Some people ought to just stay away from this thread. Totally embarrassing yourself.

 

 

Sorry, please tell me what I have said that I should be 'embarrassed' of?

[Golden Vision]

At the risk of repeating myself, drunk fans, rowdy fans and fans without tickets was a regular occurrence and would not have been an issue had the police and planning agencies' failure not been so complete.

The reason we know this, is the lengths those responsible have gone to in covering up the truth.

They fought to hide it for 27 years, all too aware of its scale.

The fans to blame are those from all clubs, who were rioting on the terraces previously and who gave an anti-football (anti-working class if you like) establishment reasons to erect fences, penning people like you would animals.

The establishment view of the football fan / working class as animals continued in the language used in report by senior police at the time.

It seems fair to say that without the fence at Hillsborough, whilst injuries may have occurred, death was unlikely and certainly not 96 of them.

I do not disagree with any of this and in particular the point that the blame lies with fans behaviour in general over a long period of time. What I am saying is that the fans who were trying to push their way in on this tragic day should not be exempted from this blame.

[luckydug]

A haunting and brilliant piece of writing.

 

 

 

 

Well said. It sums up what went wrong on April 15th 1989, and also what was completely wrong with government and the police in Britain in that era. By rights, Government is supposed to be of, for and by the people, but too often it isn't - and it definitely wasn't in 80s Britain. The first priority of the police is supposed to be the safety of the public, but football supporters (and working class people) simply were never on the list of people the police were supposed to serve and protect.

 

The victims of Hillsborough were unlawfully killed. They were killed because the police got it horribly wrong - mistakenly, incompetently, arrogantly and maliciously wrong. They were killed because the ambulance services did too little, too late. The very emergency services whose job it was to look after them led them into pain, terror and the most awful deaths imaginable, and then sat back and failed to give them the treatment that might have saved most of them.

 

And then the same emergency services and their political masters engaged in a combination of deceit, cover-up and character assassination that defied description and that reached to the very highest levels of the political system. The treatment of the victims and their families and friends in the aftermath of what happened at Hillsborough remains one of the most shameful and disgraceful incidents in modern British history.

 

Do the verdicts of unlawful killing represent justice? Will they bring closure for the families of the victims? That's not for us to say, I guess. But 27 years is a dreadfully long time to have to wait to have the truth of what happened officially acknowledged.

 

Justice for the 96. May they rest in peace.

 

 

Great post Uly sums up everything I would like to say myself.

[i8hibsh]

A perfect example of how to miss the point

Do we not follow up on any criminal negligence just because a period of time has passed ?

 

 

Of course.  That point is not missed.  But this does not mean that we have to continue to 'pay our respects' to the victims etc.  There are people on here that are not even talking about the criminal negligence but just focusing on the pain and hurt.  As I have clearly said this should be closure to it all now.