Hillsborough Verdict

[i wish jj was my dad]

There will be files that were forgotten about years ago lying in storerooms that might shed light about how deeply Thatcher and Hurd were involved in the cover up.  They should be due for review under the thirty year rule for releasing public records.

[andi17]

There will be files that were forgotten about years ago lying in storerooms that might shed light about how deeply Thatcher and Hurd were involved in the cover up.  They should be due for review under the thirty year rule for releasing public records.

Yea and a lot more mate

[Tommy Brown]

Not sure if I should watch this first before posting.

Just remember watching it at the time (1996) and being appalled at what had being going on.

A really good docu-drama. (90mins) by Jimmy McGovern.

 

Twenty more years on before justice being served.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mvBWZsCZNM

[i wish jj was my dad]

I remember being moved by the jimmy mcgovern drama at the time. I was disgusted at the police at the time but the truth turned out to be worse

[Brandt]

Whats the latest documentary out there on this?

[Nookie Bear]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read once a Forest fan committed suicide because he couldn't live with the sights he saw that day. Said that the Liverpool fans laid the bodies out at that end of the field as it was closer to the gates where the emergency vehicles came in. Some thought they were injured but it became clear soon that they were dead.

 

Can't begin to imagine how horrific that was.

I know a Forest fan who was there and he never mentoned that and I have never seen pics of that either, although I don't doubt it affected more than just Liverpool fans.

 

I though the bodies were kept in the gym, or am I thinking of Heysel?

[Салатные палочки]

Whats the latest documentary out there on this?

The ESPN 30 for 30 one was superb. Very informative and really highlighted how inept Duckenfield was.

 

It was on youtube for a while but its not available now.

[Салатные палочки]

I know a Forest fan who was there and he never mentoned that and I have never seen pics of that either, although I don't doubt it affected more than just Liverpool fans.

 

I though the bodies were kept in the gym, or am I thinking of Heysel?

No your right, they were taken to a gymnasium for identification. The guy went into detail about someone being laid down and his face covered with a jacket and thats when he realised the people laid out were dead. Obviously I dont know if its 100% true but still a harrowing read. The guy was a nurse as well.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

No, re-read my post. I was saying, not implying, that it was the pushing, not the presence, of ticketless fans that caused the crush. 

 

I'm behind on this thread, but this fairly short post is worth highlighting, in that it is 100% factually incorrect.

 

It is nearly impossible for pushing to cause a crush like this.  Fans pushing from the back does not create this kind of pressure.  All it effectively takes to resist the pressure of pushing is for the people in front of those pushing to push back, which most people do when pushed hard enough.

 

The pressure is caused by the accumulation of much smaller quantities of pressure by everyone sidling forward.  It's small enough levels of pressure that people don't realize the problem.  Further, people trying to move forward to get into the stadium don't realize the problem, and hence prevent people from trying to go the other direction.

 

The blame lies with the design of the Leppings Lane terrace, the fencing across the front of the pens (how anyone ever though this was a good idea is mental to me), and the negligence of the police.  The fans were doing what football fans do -- sidle forward along a corridor to get to the terraces.  No pushing needed to cause it.

[Cade]

Most crushing deaths and injuries are caused by slow shuffling or sideways sliding, not from fast aggressive surges in the crowd.

That's what makes them so dangerous.

It's a slow buildup and by the time you realise you're in trouble it's already too late to do anything about it.

[Brighton Jambo]

Quite a difficult read especially with tear filled eyes.

A disgrace that it's taken 27 years to get this far.

This, absolutely heart wrenching

[PumpkinJambo]

I've been listening to the programme on 5Live, hosted by Kelly Cates. Been in tears for two hours. It must have been hard for her to interview her dad, Kenny Dalgleish, about it but it was very well done. It will be available as a podcast or radio iplayer, it's tough but well worth a listen.

[H1B5 Owner]

I'm behind on this thread, but this fairly short post is worth highlighting, in that it is 100% factually incorrect.

 

It is nearly impossible for pushing to cause a crush like this. Fans pushing from the back does not create this kind of pressure. All it effectively takes to resist the pressure of pushing is for the people in front of those pushing to push back, which most people do when pushed hard enough.

 

The pressure is caused by the accumulation of much smaller quantities of pressure by everyone sidling forward. It's small enough levels of pressure that people don't realize the problem. Further, people trying to move forward to get into the stadium don't realize the problem, and hence prevent people from trying to go the other direction.

 

The blame lies with the design of the Leppings Lane terrace, the fencing across the front of the pens (how anyone ever though this was a good idea is mental to me), and the negligence of the police. The fans were doing what football fans do -- sidle forward along a corridor to get to the terraces. No pushing needed to cause it.

The stand design was horrendous. The fans would've funneled toward the tunnel (wide enough for about 5 abreast or so iirc) running under the upper section of the stand. When packed there would be no way to retreat, just the increasing pressure from behind.

 

Emerging from the tunnel, the lower stand is ridiculously shallow back to front so there'd be little opportunity to spread sideways in a crowded area with overall restriction of movement also exacerbated by the crush barriers

 

The radial (pen side) fences stopped any sideways spread to ease the pressure (they only had a gate up by the back wall for odd fans to move between pens) and the only other real exit was the narrow gate to the pitch which was closed and manned.

 

Stomach turns just thinking about it.

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Cade]

 

Crush was forming at the turnstiles.

There were only 7 turnstiles in operation that day, meaning getting people into the ground was slow and more and more people were arriving at the ground all the time.

Police opened gate C to try to relieve the pressure at the turnstiles.

Instead of directing the fans through the gate to pens 6&7 in the corner of the ground, the police allowed them all to go down the tunnel into the already full pens 3&4.

It was impossible for anybody to go backwards as people continued to enter through gate C then shuffle down the tunnel.

[His name is]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

[luckyBatistuta]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

By saying that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor, are you saying that some were to blame.

[Placid Casual]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Another horror show post...

 

It's not a difference of opinion, it's ignorance of the facts.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Placid Casual

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

So many opinions, so few brains.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Aah, **** it. Edited April 27, 2016 by Diana Prince

[Placid Casual]

Aah, **** it.

Don't worry, you were right the first time.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Placid Casual

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Don't worry, you were right the first time.

[CollyWolly]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

To form a reasonable opinion on this it is essential that you familiarise yourself with the facts as they are now known. Anyone still blaming Liverpool fans to any extent has clearly not familiarised themselves with those facts. There are not two sides to the story now. There is one side. There is one truth. A side and a truth that took 27 years to be fully established because of years of denial, deceit and lies. We had years and years where people were peddled the utter myth that Liverpool fans contributed to the deaths of their fellow fans. Peddled by the people who WERE responsible for the deaths to save their own arses. Liverpool fans did not cause or contribute. They didn't. Not in any way shape or form. That is now proven and accepted.

[Governor Tarkin]

I've not read this whole thread and so this maybe have been raised. For me, the commentary on the outcome is missing a huge point. There is no doubt that some very serious, fatal errors were made by the police and that what caused the tragedy. How the individuals involved are held accountable is now for others to decide. What concerns me more is the subsequent cover-up and why and how this was allowed to happen. Senior Police, Politicians, Judiciary, Local Authorities, media owners etc etc (AKA "Establishment") have been shown to have been involved in a despicable cover up. Remember the background at the time , only a few years after the miners strike, was one in which these instruments of state were regarded as Thatcher's personal enforcers. The establishment regarded themselves as rightful guardians of the British State and would do whatever they thought right to protect themselves and the structures which enabled them to control the state. That included regarding football and those who attend it, as the nations plebiscite who should be forced to bend to the rule of law as defined and interpreted by the Establishment.

 

This whole Establishment is underpinned by the Monarchy, the class system and honours system. I often think "what has changed?" Sure, there are new laws and accountability that should prevent another tragedy of this nature, but exactly the same level of cover up and protection is just as evident in some modern day attrocities. I don't mean to offend, and I know there have been no deaths in the same way, but who has gone to jail as a result of the 2008 financial collapse? In fact we see the Establishment going from strength to strength.

 

This verdict exonerates the victims, but the establishment will make sure that the focus now remains on this tragedy in isolation instead of opening up the discussion and focus on those who promoted, conducted and condoned the cover up and whether these attitudes and instruments of state remain pervasive today.

Excellent post.

[jake]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

read Cade last two posts.

The diagram is all the evidence needed.

 

The slagging of of Liverpool fans was not only part of the cover up but an indication of the contempt shown towards that part of the country by the then establishment.

[H1B5 Owner]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Three separate inquiries. Two years of evidence in the latest one ALL absorbing the fans of any blame. Even Kelvin Mackenzie accepts that fact ffs.

 

Had there been one shred of evidence to support the claim if fan misbehavior the guaranteed that rag the Scum newspaper would be parading it for all to see. Anything?

 

You're free to have an opinion however if it is contrary to all evidence then you show yourself to either be ignorant of those facts or just ignorant.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[fabienleclerq]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

And you're opinion is based on what? Have you bothered reading anything about the disaster?

[FarmerTweedy]

Why must they continue to apologise? They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended. They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years. Do you think they need to continue to apologise indefinitely? Newspapers are on their last legs anyway. They will not be around for much longer.

Hillsborough and Lockerbie were the two main tragedies that were the classic ?I know where I was when it happened? so I have always been interested and deeply saddened in this one. I have my own opinions on it that I wont share out of respect but what is it that makes this tragedy stand out more than the thousand that happen all over the world every year. Bradford and Ibrox were two huge footballing tragedies but why are we not made to feel like a bad person for not paying our respects everyday to that?

Do people honestly believe that if a tragedy happened at Hearts, anyone outside Hearts would give the slightest shite 27 years later? I?m telling you that the answer is no. As I said earlier in this thread I really hope that this is closure I really hope it is. The people that have no loss or involvement in this horrible day simply can?t keep the perpetual grief going. It has to end. It was a sad sad day and my thoughts are with all of those affected (and I mean really affected not the people who think they were or are because they read an article on it) but life is just way too short.

No other tragedy gets as much column inches or air time 27 years after it and that is just not right ? it really really isn?t. All tragedies are of equal harrowing sadness whether it has been covered up or whatever. 230,000 people died in a Tsunami in 2004 and how many f?ks are given today? Zero.

I have passed on my thoughts and sadness to the people of Liverpool on many occasion throughout the years, they get it, I am sure. Lets move on.

What a complete and utter load of bollocks this post is! If you can't work out why the Hillsborough tragedy is in the news when others no longer are, you're a total idiot.

 

As for the S*n, I struggle to see why you feel the need to defend that rag, but I guess it's not surprising if you can't even understand why Hillsborough is in the news in the first place.

[Nookie Bear]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

Treading carefully here...I think it is difficult for those of us who attended football back in those days and who saw the way fans behaved towards each other, the police and how they treated the various towns they visited, to accept that not 1% of blame can be attached to the fans. Not specifically Liverpool fans though but all the fans back then who turned grounds into warzones and revelled in an atmosphere of violence and antagonism towards each other, the towns they visited and the police.

 

Not denying it was 'fun' at times but the actions of many fans across England led directly to sh1te stadiums, oppressive policing and being treated like animals in pens...and eventually Hillsborough.

[Justin Z]

The actions of many fans across England . . .  plus an authoritarian, hardline government and establishment who would rather treat said people like animals in pens instead of working to repair the social issues that contributed to the environment in the first place.  Typical neoconservative response, typical neoconservative failure, typical neoconservative coverup when the propaganda narrative didn't go to plan.

[The Treasurer]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Not trying to defend this poster in any way, but saying that the fans actions were "a contributing factor" is not the same as saying they were to blame.

However he is wrong to say the truth is somewhere in the middle in this case.

The blame lies fairly and squarely with the authorities.

[CollyWolly]

Treading carefully here...I think it is difficult for those of us who attended football back in those days and who saw the way fans behaved towards each other, the police and how they treated the various towns they visited, to accept that not 1% of blame can be attached to the fans. Not specifically Liverpool fans though but all the fans back then who turned grounds into warzones and revelled in an atmosphere of violence and antagonism towards each other, the towns they visited and the police.

 

Not denying it was 'fun' at times but the actions of many fans across England led directly to sh1te stadiums, oppressive policing and being treated like animals in pens...and eventually Hillsborough.

All completely true. Just ask the people of Brechin, Motherwell, Airdrie etc etc etc what is was like to have Hearts in town back in the 80's

 

However their doesn't seem to have been ANY violent or antagonistic conduct that particularly day and therefore it wasn't a factor. Violence and antagonism certainly led to the establishment placing all football supporters in the same category of scumbag and treating them as such. Thats a fault of the establishment though. The whole reason for big police presences at big games in those days, as it is now, was to ensure that the game and the event went off trouble free and people were safe.

[Nookie Bear]

All completely true. Just ask the people of Brechin, Motherwell, Airdrie etc etc etc what is was like to have Hearts in town back in the 80's

 

However their doesn't seem to have been ANY violent or antagonistic conduct that particularly day and therefore it wasn't a factor. Violence and antagonism certainly led to the establishment placing all football supporters in the same category of scumbag and treating them as such. Thats a fault of the establishment though. The whole reason for big police presences at big games in those days, as it is now, was to ensure that the game and the event went off trouble free and people were safe.

No, and I know there wasn't any violence that day. What I meant was that football supporters contributed to the situation as a whole.

 

I'm not sure how the blame can be placed solely at the feet of the establishment though. They were under tremendous pressure from the public to sort out football once and for all.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

The initial problem was that there was far too many fans for too small an area.

When the build up was recognised gate C was opened to relive the build up, however instead of directing the fans to an area which had plenty of space, they were allowed into an area which was already full.

Not one of those fans who were let in via gate C would have known that the area they were being directed to was already full, not one of them, so how can they be blamed? 

 

Let me put it this way, you get on a bus and it's empty, but pretty soon afterwards it's overcrowded with over 100 people on it, instead of 50 and people are getting crushed.

Is it the fault of the people getting on the bus that it's overcrowded?  Or the fault of the person letting them on the bus to allow the overcrowding?

 

You say there are two sides to every story and of course you are correct, on one side we have the Police who were in charge of crowd control and on the other you have thousands of football fans.

So here is your two sides of this story.

Those in charge of crowd control lost control and were completely out of their depth and the other side of the story is, as a consequence of one side being incompetent 96 innocent people died and 000's injured.

 

That's your two sides of this story.

[CollyWolly]

No, and I know there wasn't any violence that day. What I meant was that football supporters contributed to the situation as a whole.

 

I'm not sure how the blame can be placed solely at the feet of the establishment though. They were under tremendous pressure from the public to sort out football once and for all.

A section of the population who followed football used it for the purposes of violence and gang based antagonism and nastiness. Not just Liverpool, every club with a significant away support had a significant nasty streak about them. Following football away from home in those days was scary at times. Getting a kicking or a chasing because you wore the wrong colours was common place.

 

The establishment's answer was not to deal with that specific problem, but to group ALL football supporters with the lowest common denominator. The core problem was ignored. It was too big to deal with so no-one did. Being a reasonably well behaved football fan in those days, as most of us were, didn't make any difference to the way you were treated by the police and society at large.

 

In fact it was only post Heysel and Hillsborough that any sensible attempt was made to isolate the problems that football had and deal with those. It still took the best part of 20 years to fix but mass violence at football these days is extremely rare. The thugs and morons have virtually been rooted out of the game. Those that haven't been rooted out are so small in number and so strictly observed and controlled that they cant do what they used to do. The police established the NFIU around the same time and several years later, that unit is largely responsible for what we have now at football. A safe environment virtually cleansed of thuggery and violence.That's actually a good thing that came out of Heysel and Hillsborough, the determination to address football's problems properly and the determination in some sections of the establishment that Hillsborough should never happen again. Hillsborough could not happen these days, neither could Ibrox, Bradford or Heysel. Its just a shame that it took so many deaths to get us there.

Edited April 28, 2016 by CollyWolly

[Салатные палочки]

No, and I know there wasn't any violence that day. What I meant was that football supporters contributed to the situation as a whole.

 

I'm not sure how the blame can be placed solely at the feet of the establishment though. They were under tremendous pressure from the public to sort out football once and for all.

 

It can because they were charged with ensuring the safety of the public.  They failed drastically.  The subsequent cover-up added salt to the wounds.  Who was responsible for the cover up?  The establishment, including South Yorkshire Police and the government.  

 

Therefore, the blame lands solely at their feet.  

[XB52]

What a complete and utter load of bollocks this post is! If you can't work out why the Hillsborough tragedy is in the news when others no longer are, you're a total idiot.

 

As for the S*n, I struggle to see why you feel the need to defend that rag, but I guess it's not surprising if you can't even understand why Hillsborough is in the news in the first place.

he's hurting cause his hero Maggie is once again being shown up

[Diego10]

A section of the population who followed football used it for the purposes of violence and gang based antagonism and nastiness. Not just Liverpool, every club with a significant away support had a significant nasty streak about them. Following football away from home in those days was scary at times. Getting a kicking or a chasing because you wore the wrong colours was common place.

 

The establishment's answer was not to deal with that specific problem, but to group ALL football supporters with the lowest common denominator. The core problem was ignored. It was too big to deal with so no-one did. Being a reasonably well behaved football fan in those days, as most of us were, didn't make any difference to the way you were treated by the police and society at large.

 

In fact it was only post Heysel and Hillsborough that any sensible attempt was made to isolate the problems that football had and deal with those. It still took the best part of 20 years to fix but mass violence at football these days is extremely rare. The thugs and morons have virtually been rooted out of the game. Those that haven't been rooted out are so small in number and so strictly observed and controlled that they cant do what they used to do. The police established the NFIU around the same time and several years later, that unit is largely responsible for what we have now at football. A safe environment virtually cleansed of thuggery and violence.That's actually a good thing that came out of Heysel and Hillsborough, the determination to address football's problems properly and the determination in some sections of the establishment that Hillsborough should never happen again. Hillsborough could not happen these days, neither could Ibrox, Bradford or Heysel. Its just a shame that it took so many deaths to get us there.

Bang on.

 

The culture of football and football fan behaviour, and the failure of authorities to treat that contributed a great deal to having fans caged in like animals and ultimately led to this tragedy.

 

The actions of Liverpool fans on the day were not a contributor to the disaster.

[The Don]

All completely true. Just ask the people of Brechin, Motherwell, Airdrie etc etc etc what is was like to have Hearts in town back in the 80's

 

However their doesn't seem to have been ANY violent or antagonistic conduct that particularly day and therefore it wasn't a factor. Violence and antagonism certainly led to the establishment placing all football supporters in the same category of scumbag and treating them as such. Thats a fault of the establishment though. The whole reason for big police presences at big games in those days, as it is now, was to ensure that the game and the event went off trouble free and people were safe.

Maybe there was no violence THAT day however Liverpool fans were notoriously the worst in the country and were one of the worst in Europe, this was because of the clubs success in Europe and each season winning leagues and cups they were always in European competitions. Sure the documentary that reported this also said Liverpool are recognised to have been the first club to have "casuals"

 

Yes the establishment took a zero tolerance approach to football hooliganism but what do people expect? Oh it's ok to let them riot and frighten innocent children and oap's passing by because they are working class football fans ? Bollox those that behaved like animals were treated accordingly. That is not the fault of the establishment it is the fault of those that cause the damage and violence. It is not to dissimilar to how AB is treating any actions by fans at Tynecastle which are deemed unacceptable and how many in this forum applaud her for it "Zero tolerance" brought on by the actions of mindless morons.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Rudi-Mental

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Find yourselves a couple of hours to listen to this, especially if you still doubt that the inquest verdicts were correct:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07864c5

[southcap]

Why can't some people get their heads around the fans were in no way, shape or form to blame?

It could have been 1000 drunk, ticketless hooligans or 1000 kids, with tickets, on a sunday church group day out.

 

It would have had the SAME outcome.

 

Hence why with all the available evidence, the fans have been cleared of have contributed in any way, shape or form to what happened. Several times.

 

The police were criminally negligent which caused the incident. Their cover up was just criminally corrupt.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Find yourselves a couple of hours to listen to this, especially if you still doubt that the inquest verdicts were correct:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07864c5

 

Especially the closing words from Phil Scraton at the very end, who absolutely nails it.

[Zico]

A section of the population who followed football used it for the purposes of violence and gang based antagonism and nastiness. Not just Liverpool, every club with a significant away support had a significant nasty streak about them. Following football away from home in those days was scary at times. Getting a kicking or a chasing because you wore the wrong colours was common place.

 

The establishment's answer was not to deal with that specific problem, but to group ALL football supporters with the lowest common denominator. The core problem was ignored. It was too big to deal with so no-one did. Being a reasonably well behaved football fan in those days, as most of us were, didn't make any difference to the way you were treated by the police and society at large.

 

In fact it was only post Heysel and Hillsborough that any sensible attempt was made to isolate the problems that football had and deal with those. It still took the best part of 20 years to fix but mass violence at football these days is extremely rare. The thugs and morons have virtually been rooted out of the game. Those that haven't been rooted out are so small in number and so strictly observed and controlled that they cant do what they used to do. The police established the NFIU around the same time and several years later, that unit is largely responsible for what we have now at football. A safe environment virtually cleansed of thuggery and violence.That's actually a good thing that came out of Heysel and Hillsborough, the determination to address football's problems properly and the determination in some sections of the establishment that Hillsborough should never happen again. Hillsborough could not happen these days, neither could Ibrox, Bradford or Heysel. Its just a shame that it took so many deaths to get us there.

Great post CW, spot on.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Why must they continue to apologise?  They printed what they thought was true at the time (some still stand by it), Liverpool as a city stopped buying it and quite rightly were deeply offended.  They apologised profusely at the time and have continued to apologise for 27 years.  

 

I thought the apology didn't come until 2012 from the Sun? I might be wrong.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

Whilst you have a point re being a contributing factor, the comment re being somewhere in the middle is the kind of thing someone says when they simply don't know which side to believe. It's the easier option for some to take the middle ground. Even when facts prove otherwise. 

 

Somewhat of a crappy analogy but the defects to the Forth Road Bridge. The traffic was a contributing factor however blame doesn't lay with the traffic. If a catastrophe had occurred would people have been saying aye but the traffic was partly to blame? 

[Mikey1874]

###### read Cade last two posts.

The ###### diagram is all the evidence needed.

 

The slagging of of Liverpool fans was not only part of the cover up but an indication of the contempt shown towards that part of the country by the then establishment.

And very effective going by some people still have it in mind that Liverpool fans were at fault.

[Mikey1874]

Been reading the individual reports.

 

Several of those that died were late comers including some who came in through when Police opened the gates.

 

Doesn't fit the blaming of the latecomers either.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Mikey1874

[FarmerTweedy]

Apologies for the ramble but I sometimes use this forum as a cathartic release - feel free to disagree although this is more just a personal reflection rather than trying to enter into a debate.

 

Like many football fans Hillsborough is a subject that provokes intense emotions for me. I think it because for many, myself included, I could in some small way identify with what happened on that horrific day as, unlike other disasters, there was a feeling of 'there but for the grace of God'. I cried last night, as I cry almost everytime I hear details about Hillsborough.

I dont know how soon I knew - in almost a six-sense way - that these fans were unlawfully killed but it was pretty early on and despite of all the early 'evidence'. All the football fans I know, from different clubs, and with whom Ive spoken to seemed to know as well - if this disaster was caused by anyone, the most likely to be behind it were the police because of the evidence based on our own experiences.

When I started going to football in the mid-80s there is no doubt football fans as a collective were treated as 'animals' purely based on the actions of a proportionate minority. We were herded and coralled. You stood surrounded by dirt and litter. There was, at times, a fear of being 'attacked' by the other 'animals' in different pens. You were not allowed to speak to police officers - any enquiry or suggestion things werent right were met with the threat of arrest. We put up with conditions that were, at times, frightening - possibly because that was part of the 'thrill' and also because you knew no better and there was no-one you could really complain to. On more than one occasion I experienced having the air squeezed out of me and pressure on limbs becoming increasingly painful.

Im 40 and am conscious Im now starting to become the 40-year-olds I laughed at when I was 15-25 BUT on this one occasion I feel no shame in simply saying - if you werent there you have no comprehension as to what it was like. Football has fundamentally changed since and because of Hillsborough. Standing on any crumbling terracing unable to move properly, swaying and, if you were unlucky, being pinned against the barriers, whilst all the time literally being caged in was thrilling but probably only the same way white-knuckle rides are thrilling - because they are based on danger.

 

Forums are obviously based on differences of opinion but this is the first thread where I have truly found some posts abhorrent. Never mind being ashamed to support the same team as some - Im ashamed to share the same planet. Everyone has a right to an opinion but in a civilised society we should also be able to accept there are times when that opinion is going to touch people's emotions in a way that goes way beyond upsetting them because you think Neilson should be sacked or Alexander replaced.

 

The evidence is overwhelming and, as some excellent posters have pointed out, it is based on three facts which are irrefutable and which there is no basis for debate other than by those whose motives are questionable. Firstly - no matter what the behaviour of Liverpool fans on the day was (and there is nothing but allegations it was anything other than acceptable) the evidence from three (?) independent sources who poured over evidence instead of simply speaking to some bloke in a pub or taking a press release from an agency in Sheffield was that the fans DID NOTHING to contribute to the disaster. The Liverpool fans DID NOTHING to contribute to the disaster.

Secondly, like most disasters, there was a collection of mistakes made by infallible humans, none of which were 'malicious' but which nevertheless were mistakes which could have been avoided and which if they had been avoided 96 people wouldnt have died on that day.

Thirdly - and like others this is the point that makes me the most angry - was there was a conspiracy not just to cover up mistakes (which is understandable up to a point) but to cover up in such a way as to blame others. That is disgusting, criminal and I hope that none of those who contributed to it - and like many conspiracies - there are many, live every single day of their lives in torment over what they did. Hopefully for some in a prison cell.

I also hope the Sun and the Times - hated before today - suffer a slow death and the vile people who have caused untold misery (for years at those papers) are forced to retrain into jobs which might actually repay their debt to society.

This is very well said, the only thing I'd add is that the mistakes made on the day may not have been out of malice but they certainly were made, or some at least, out of a complete disregard for the wellbeing of the people they were supposed to be protecting. The failure to adequately plan and prepare for the match was primarily down to senior police simply not giving a toss about the fans that would be there.

[Thomaso]

###### read Cade last two posts.

The ###### diagram is all the evidence needed.

 

The slagging of of Liverpool fans was not only part of the cover up but an indication of the contempt shown towards that part of the country by the then establishment.

 

Totally agree that the slagging of LFC fans was indeed a major part of the cover up.

 

However I think that the reaction at the time of the government, FA and much of the public, to the LFC fans was coloured by the Heysel disaster that happened only 4 years previously.

 

Juventus fans died that night and although there was culpability by the Belgian football authorities (which they were charged with) the sad fact is that 14 Liverpool fans were subsequently convicted of manslaughter. 

 

Not only Liverpool, but all English Clubs were banned from Europe which obviously did not go down well with other fans up and down the country.  As such LFC fans were already pidgeon holed as hooligans and louts by many, even before the tragedy at Hillsbourgh unfolded.  This I feel resulted in much of the initial "contempt" that you refer to. 

[CollyWolly]

Totally agree that the slagging of LFC fans was indeed a major part of the cover up.

 

However I think that the reaction at the time of the government, FA and much of the public, to the LFC fans was coloured by the Heysel disaster that happened only 4 years previously.

 

Juventus fans died that night and although there was culpability by the Belgian football authorities (which they were charged with) the sad fact is that 14 Liverpool fans were subsequently convicted of manslaughter. 

 

Not only Liverpool, but all English Clubs were banned from Europe which obviously did not go down well with other fans up and down the country.  As such LFC fans were already pidgeon holed as hooligans and louts by many, even before the tragedy at Hillsbourgh unfolded.  This I feel resulted in much of the initial "contempt" that you refer to. 

Their conduct at the Heysel was a gift to those who wanted to blame them for Hillsborough. No co-relation between the two incidents but it sure made it easy for the authorities to make the link

[Deevers]

Now comes the blood lust for vengeance. I can completely understand the victims families looking for people to be held to account for what happened on that day. It's going to be a long list. The people I hope that are held to account are those shady characters in the background who changed police statements and bullied junior officers into retracting criticism the senior ranks decisions and behaviour on that day. Lots of constables on duty tried their damndest that day to save life's and deal with the unfolding disaster professionally. They have been let down badly by others.

[Thomaso]

Their conduct at the Heysel was a gift to those who wanted to blame them for Hillsborough. No co-relation between the two incidents but it sure made it easy for the authorities to make the link

 

Not only the authorities who made this link.

 

From a recent BBC article -

 

Phil Hammond, who lost his 14 year old son Phillip, at Hillsborough, said he remembers Heysel well.

 

"I think when Hillsborough happened, they just thought it was another Heysel" he said "I do think if Heysel hadn't happened, things would have been very different, because people just automatically thought hooliganism"

 

I am not condoning in any way SYP blaming fans behaviour. I am only pointing out why there was initially widespread contempt (wrongly!!) shown to LFC fans in the immediate aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thomaso