Hillsborough Verdict

[doctor jambo]

South Yorkshire police should be wound up- taken over by another force. It happens to NHS trusts and it should happen here.

It is permanently tainted

[blairdin]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

I won't lie, despite the obvious police botch ups, I believed this had to be the case. Had to be. Surely.

 

Then the Hillsborough Independent Panel findings were published in September 2012. That blew any notion of any fault of the fans that attended Hillsborough that day clean out of the water. There's not two sides, just the one.

 

The fans were blameless. They have been exonerated. Part of me feels bad for assuming fan behaviour had to play a part.

 

I'm 37, so I can just remember terraces. Parkhead 1991 was a huge game for us. Alan Preston scores, its been done to death on this thread. Suddenly an arena isn't safe. I get it now.

 

Fans of Liverpool in jovial mood desperate to see their team kick off in a semi final were wronged by the people there to ensure their safety and security. 96 died.

 

Said people have spent the last 27 years covering their arses, burying the truth, deflecting attention and slandering the people of a city. Many people didn't fall for this, but some of us did.

 

The arse coverers, truth buriers and fact defectors should be held to account. This should result in jail time.

 

Go read it and accept you're wrong.

Edited April 28, 2016 by blairdin

[CollyWolly]

Not only the authorities who made this link.

 

From a recent BBC article -

 

Phil Hammond, who lost his 14 year old son Phillip, at Hillsborough, said he remembers Heysel well.

 

"I think when Hillsborough happened, they just thought it was another Heysel" he said "I do think if Heysel hadn't happened, things would have been very different, because people just automatically thought hooliganism"

 

I am not condoning in any way SYP blaming fans behaviour. I am only pointing out why there was initially widespread contempt (wrongly!!) shown to LFC fans in the immediate aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster.

Of course. Actually it was perfectly natural to assume from the off that hooliganism had played a part. That's why it was so easy to imply that's what it was that started the chain of events, an unruly, drunk and late crowd who simply burst onto the concourse. I think it would be the first conclusion most folk would have jumped to in those days. I certainly did on the way back from Dens. It wasn't that long before people began to realise what the real cause was, but of course the seed had been planted. Top people at big organisations were culpable and they knew it. They had the choice to put their hands up and admit it, or cover it up and continue with the 'fans to blame' angle. To a man they covered it up. Not only the police, but the government, the FA and SWFC who all played a huge, criminally neglectful and culpable part in the catalogue of events that led to what happened. Not only did the senior police officers cover it up but they bullied and  threatened junior officers into silence, altered their statements to fit the official line and committed perjury at several hearings

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Now comes the blood lust for vengeance. I can completely understand the victims families looking for people to be held to account for what happened on that day. It's going to be a long list. The people I hope that are held to account are those shady characters in the background who changed police statements and bullied junior officers into retracting criticism the senior ranks decisions and behaviour on that day. Lots of constables on duty tried their damndest that day to save life's and deal with the unfolding disaster professionally. They have been let down badly by others.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/south-yorkshire-police-who-did-what-at-hillsborough

 

This tells you who was who in the senior ranks at the time of Hillsborough.

 

Peter Wright personally appointed David Duckenfield to command the Semi-final, but he unfortunately died in 2011, so therefore can't answer any questions.

 

Peter Wright was Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police at the time of Hillsborough in 1989 but he was also the Chief Constable in 1984 during the miners strike and the notorious 'Battle of Orgreave' in which South Yorkshire Police falsified statements, changed statements and tried a have a major cover-up of the Police's actions during and after the 'Battle of Orgreave'.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/12/andy-burnham-calls-for-hillsborough-style-inquiry-into-battle-of-orgreave

 

Before taking up his post with South Yorkshire Police, Peter Wright was Deputy Chief Constable of Merseyside Police during the time of the 1981 Toxteth Riots in Liverpool.

 

Was this significant?

As far as I'm aware nobody has mentioned whether Peter Wright's previous dealings with rioting Liverpudlians in 1981 had any bearing on his dealing with the Liverpool Football fans in 1989.

You have to remember the Heysel tragedy had occurred only 4 years previously as well involving Liverpool football fans, so it was still fresh in peoples minds, did this also play a part of the mind set of the Police?

[H1B5 Owner]

Find yourselves a couple of hours to listen to this, especially if you still doubt that the inquest verdicts were correct:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07864c5

Heard about half this morning, will be listening to the second half on the way home. Some harrowing accounts so far from those who escaped the "pens" and from Bruce Grobbelaar.

 

Particularly striking were the stories of the "robotic"response from some police on the ground, surely a consequence of their conditioning to be expecting crowd trouble.

Especially the closing words from Phil Scraton at the very end, who absolutely nails it.

 

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[MR INCREDIBLE]

I won't lie, despite the obvious police botch ups, I believed this had to be the case. Had to be. Surely.

Then the Hillsborough Independent Panel findings were published in September 2012. That blew any notion of any fault of the fans that attended Hillsborough that day clean out of the water. There's not two sides, just the one.

The fans were blameless. They have been exonerated. Part of me feels bad for assuming fan behaviour had to play a part.

I'm 37, so I can just remember terraces. Parkhead 1991 was a huge game for us. Alan Preston scores, its been done to death on this thread. Suddenly an arena isn't safe. I get it now.

Fans of Liverpool in jovial mood desperate to see their team kick off in a semi final were wronged by the people there to ensure their safety and security. 96 died.

Said people have spent the last 27 years covering their arses, burying the truth, deflecting attention and slandering the people of a city. Many people didn't fall for this, but some of us did.

The arse coverers, truth buriers and fact defectors should be held to account. This should result in jail time.

Go read it and accept you're wrong.

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

[CollyWolly]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

Thousands of ticketless fans ? Everyone who has ever read or even skimmed through any of the enquiry reports knows this has been de-bunked years ago.

There were 124 ticketless fans in and around the stadium that day. Honestly mate, go do some reading.

[Mikey1874]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

Liverpool fans attending were UNDER that is LESS THAN the capacity for their areas. Answer that.

 

Too many were put into one section hence crushing, asphyxiation. Answer that.

[Gene Parmesan]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

Christ almighty. Debunked on every page of this thread; yet still the ignorant keep coming back with this nonsense.

[Justin Z]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

 

This is a perfect example of the human propensity to hold onto the first story you hear and even when presented mounds of evidence that contradicts it, cling to your original conclusion.

 

But, just in case this time is the one that makes the difference: The total number of fans who went through the gates equaled less than the number of tickets sold to Liverpool fans.  Ticketless fans made zero difference.

[Fitzroy Pointon]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

 

This is becoming ridiculous.  Either people are thick or are trolling.  When will people realise the fans WERE NOT to blame for this disaster.  

 

Some people should try reading up on this before commenting, it's beyond a joke now.  

[Deevers]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/south-yorkshire-police-who-did-what-at-hillsborough

 

This tells you who was who in the senior ranks at the time of Hillsborough.

 

Peter Wright personally appointed David Duckenfield to command the Semi-final, but he unfortunately died in 2011, so therefore can't answer any questions.

 

Peter Wright was Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police at the time of Hillsborough in 1989 but he was also the Chief Constable in 1984 during the miners strike and the notorious 'Battle of Orgreave' in which South Yorkshire Police falsified statements, changed statements and tried a have a major cover-up of the Police's actions during and after the 'Battle of Orgreave'.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/12/andy-burnham-calls-for-hillsborough-style-inquiry-into-battle-of-orgreave

 

Before taking up his post with South Yorkshire Police, Peter Wright was Deputy Chief Constable of Merseyside Police during the time of the 1981 Toxteth Riots in Liverpool.

 

Was this significant?

As far as I'm aware nobody has mentioned whether Peter Wright's previous dealings with rioting Liverpudlians in 1981 had any bearing on his dealing with the Liverpool Football fans in 1989.

You have to remember the Heysel tragedy had occurred only 4 years previously as well involving Liverpool football fans, so it was still fresh in peoples minds, did this also play a part of the mind set of the Police?

 

 

Interesting. What I have never been able to get my head round is why an officer who had never previously dealt with a football crowd and the problems and demands that has, was put in charge of a game where there was going to be a very large crowd. It seems almost as if he was being set up for failure. There must have been other senior officers on duty who had such experience there whom he could have relied on for guidance. Why did that not happen? I am sure that a criminal trial will open a real can of worms with regards to all of this. There is little doubt that Duckenworth will be first in the firing line. Loads of other unanswered questions though about the safety certificates and the FA's part in all of this. I would hate to think that all of this will come down to a couple of sacrificial lambs while others just as culpable slide off scott free. All of those culpable in this must be brought to book.

[blairdin]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

There were not 'thousands' of ticketless fans. That smear has been dispelled. I think around 100-150 was the actual number.

 

Police failed to control the flow of people, whether they had tickets or notes irrelevant, into the Leapings Lane entrance. Basic crowd control.

 

When this caused a crush at the turnstiles Police compounded the failure by opening an exit gate to relieve the crush without controlling where the crowd would flow once inside the stadium area. The crowd headed down the open tunnel directly ahead of them instead of being funnelled left through another gate to the empty sections of the terrace.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people, not just on here but throughout the country, have the opinion that some Liverpool fans were a contributing factor in the disaster.

 

Hillsborough seems to be a subject where no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinion and the events are now black and white.

 

There are always 2 sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

The bolded bit is actually considered a informal logical fallacy by logicians.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

[H1B5 Owner]

Interesting. What I have never been able to get my head round is why an officer who had never previously dealt with a football crowd and the problems and demands that has, was put in charge of a game where there was going to be a very large crowd. It seems almost as if he was being set up for failure. There must have been other senior officers on duty who had such experience there whom he could have relied on for guidance. Why did that not happen? I am sure that a criminal trial will open a real can of worms with regards to all of this. There is little doubt that Duckenworth will be first in the firing line. Loads of other unanswered questions though about the safety certificates and the FA's part in all of this. I would hate to think that all of this will come down to a couple of sacrificial lambs while others just as culpable slide off scott free. All of those culpable in this must be brought to book.

Think Duckenfield's appointment was looked into. He replaced an experienced officer Mole(?). Impression I got was that he didn't work too hard in getting up to speed on the finer details of preparation for the game and for whatever reason had little awareness of previous incidents at the Leppings Lane end.

 

Amongst many other failures in the run up, in the face of the potentially fatal crush developing outside the turnstiles, he failed to plan for where the fans were to go once gate C was opened and the inevitable happened.

 

Sadly it seems he then froze in his response to the crush in the stands.

 

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[Buffalo Bill]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

 

 

You are indeed, Mr Incredible.

[CollyWolly]

Think Duckenfield's appointment was looked into. He replaced an experienced officer Mole(?). Impression I got was that he didn't work too hard in getting up to speed on the finer details of preparation for the game and for whatever reason had little awareness of previous incidents at the Leppings Lane end.

 

Amongst many other failures in the run up, in the face of the potentially fatal crush developing outside the turnstiles, he failed to plan for where the fans were to go once gate C was opened and the inevitable happened.

 

Sadly it seems he then froze in his response to the crush in the stands.

 

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The bloke who was supposed to do the match was suspended for taking part a practical joke on a junior ranked officer. It just shows you the cards being dealt here. If that practical joke hadn't happened or they had just brushed it off as banter like they probably did dozens of other times, those people would probably not have died.,

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Interesting. What I have never been able to get my head round is why an officer who had never previously dealt with a football crowd and the problems and demands that has, was put in charge of a game where there was going to be a very large crowd. It seems almost as if he was being set up for failure. There must have been other senior officers on duty who had such experience there whom he could have relied on for guidance. Why did that not happen? I am sure that a criminal trial will open a real can of worms with regards to all of this. There is little doubt that Duckenworth will be first in the firing line. Loads of other unanswered questions though about the safety certificates and the FA's part in all of this. I would hate to think that all of this will come down to a couple of sacrificial lambs while others just as culpable slide off scott free. All of those culpable in this must be brought to book.

 

This is one question which unfortunately is unlikely to ever be answered.

 

It just seems absolutly crazy and completely incompetent to expect someone who had no experience whatsoever of handling a football match be given charge of such a big game such as a semi-final.

 

It's like asking a baggage handler to fly a plane simply because they work in an airport and therefore must know what their doing.  

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

 

You are indeed missing something.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

It's pretty well established that Duckenfield's only concern was containing the fans and the possibility of violence. It's not even that he chose that over other concerns, he simply couldn't comprehend anything else. He was a product of an establishment that all thought that. It's one reason I think this judgement is so significant and why accusations of Liverpudlians milking the grief entirely miss the point. This is a cathartic decision - it goes some way to repairing the scars left by the calculated destruction of the the complex social fabric of working class communities in Britain in the 1980s and it's wonderful to see.

[Rudy T]

I am no legal expert however this verdict must surely have far wider and serious implications beyond the 96 unlawfully killed Liverpool fans.

 

It shows up decades of corruption within the ranks of SYP right up until present day where this current inquest took 2 years to conclude partly because SYP maintained their lies and cover ups from 27 years prior.

 

What else have they covered up.....Every single person convicted on SYP evidence could ask for a retrial and on what grounds would SYP be able to refuse?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

This is one question which unfortunately is unlikely to ever be answered.

 

It just seems absolutly crazy and completely incompetent to expect someone who had no experience whatsoever of handling a football match be given charge of such a big game such as a semi-final.

 

It's like asking a baggage handler to fly a plane simply because they work in an airport and therefore must know what their doing.  

 

From the Guardian article it sounds as though Wright's take on policing was staunchly authoritarian, with strict discipline to be rigidly enforced within the ranks and harsh discipline to be doled out to the unwashed masses who deigned to watch football.  Duckenfield was his poster boy for that MO, so he sent him into Sheffield duty young, where he delivered tirades to his officers about being a shambles and how he was going to shake things up and harden them out.

 

It may seem a stretch but I think it's appropriate -- this is the same attitude that Black Lives Matter is pushing back against in the US.  For decades, politicians, district attorneys, and police chiefs have been pledging to "get tough" on crime, with the mentality that some rough discipline is what's needed to keep the peace.  It ends up sending officers out believing that they're there to watch over a suspicious and untrustworthy mob, rather than being there to protect and serve those same people.

[jake]

I am no legal expert however this verdict must surely have far wider and serious implications beyond the 96 unlawfully killed Liverpool fans.

 

It shows up decades of corruption within the ranks of SYP right up until present day where this current inquest took 2 years to conclude partly because SYP maintained their lies and cover ups from 27 years prior.

 

What else have they covered up.....Every single person convicted on SYP evidence could ask for a retrial and on what grounds would SYP be able to refuse?

 

Not only senior police but the most senior of politicians and the dominant force in the media in this country particularly at that time.

 

Now covering up is bad enough .

The incompetence of the police action that day is a disgrace.

 

But the slander that was aimed by Murdochs paper is a reminder of how nasty dirty little rats have to much influence in this country.

I'd like some justice served on them .

[Rudolf's Mate]

I am no legal expert however this verdict must surely have far wider and serious implications beyond the 96 unlawfully killed Liverpool fans.

 

It shows up decades of corruption within the ranks of SYP right up until present day where this current inquest took 2 years to conclude partly because SYP maintained their lies and cover ups from 27 years prior.

 

What else have they covered up.....Every single person convicted on SYP evidence could ask for a retrial and on what grounds would SYP be able to refuse?

 

Every single person found giving a false account or pressuring others into giving false accounts should be at the very minimum immediately sacked. Be interesting to see what happens next however seeing as those at the top were complicit it's likely to have to come from higher up. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Every single person found giving a false account or pressuring others into giving false accounts should be at the very minimum immediately sacked. Be interesting to see what happens next however seeing as those at the top were complicit it's likely to have to come from higher up. 

 

Sacked and lose their nice fat pension as well, also the ones who are retired, they lose their generous Police pensions, well it was earned whilst they were being paid by taxpayers money and lying through their teeth.

[Deevers]

Sacked and lose their nice fat pension as well, also the ones who are retired, they lose their generous Police pensions, well it was earned whilst they were being paid by taxpayers money and lying through their teeth.

 

Yep, it's the people who orchestrated the cover up. Those who altered statements and bullied junior officers into silence that should be having sleepless nights. Let's hope the investigations throws up these people. Duckenfield may be guilty of incompetence but there are others of high rank who are guilty of worse, far worse.

[Rudy T]

Every single person found giving a false account or pressuring others into giving false accounts should be at the very minimum immediately sacked. Be interesting to see what happens next however seeing as those at the top were complicit it's likely to have to come from higher up.

I 100% agree. My point was also what else have they covered up in the last 30 odd years. We know Hillsborough and the miners strike were stitch ups so what else.

 

This a public service designed to up hold the laws of this country and keep the public safe....yet they've shown complete and utter contempt on both those counts.

 

This is potentially the biggest scandal in British history and surely casts major doubts over the legitimacy of many many convictions in South Yorkshire for 3 decades.

 

And that's before the MPs get investigated. I think I'm right in saying that in 3 years more documentation will be available as it has to be disclosed after 30 years....the mind boggles as to what that will reveal and who else will be implicated.

 

If there are more cover ups unearthed then the public have every right to demand a root and branch enquiry into our 'establishment'

Edited April 28, 2016 by Rudy T

[Remnants of Standards]

I 100% agree. My point was also what else have they covered up in the last 30 odd years. We know Hillsborough and the miners strike were stitch ups so what else.

 

This a public service designed to up hold the laws of this country and keep the public safe....yet they've shown complete and utter contempt on both those counts.

 

This is potentially the biggest scandal in British history and surely casts major doubts over the legitimacy of many many convictions in South Yorkshire for 3 decades.

 

And that's before the MPs get investigated. I think I'm right in saying that in 3 years more documentation will be available as it has to be disclosed after 30 years....the mind boggles as to what that will reveal and who else will be implicated.

 

If there are more cover ups unearthed then the public have every right to demand a root and branch enquiry into our 'establishment'

I'd like to see that 30-year rule relaxed in this case (if possible) if indeed there are to be criminal proceedings.

There could be further crucial information within that juries will need to be aware of before coming to a decision.

[Rudy T]

I'd like to see that 30-year rule relaxed in this case (if possible) if indeed there are to be criminal proceedings.

There could be further crucial information within that juries will need to be aware of before coming to a decision.

I doubt it. It allows 3 years for those involved to sort out their defence...leave the country or simply find someone else to blame!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I 100% agree. My point was also what else have they covered up in the last 30 odd years. We know Hillsborough and the miners strike were stitch ups so what else.

 

This a public service designed to up hold the laws of this country and keep the public safe....yet they've shown complete and utter contempt on both those counts.

 

This is potentially the biggest scandal in British history and surely casts major doubts over the legitimacy of many many convictions in South Yorkshire for 3 decades.

 

And that's before the MPs get investigated. I think I'm right in saying that in 3 years more documentation will be available as it has to be disclosed after 30 years....the mind boggles as to what that will reveal and who else will be implicated.

 

If there are more cover ups unearthed then the public have every right to demand a root and branch enquiry into our 'establishment'

 

If some Police officers can lie to numerous different inquires, often under oath for 27 years, in such a highly charged and hugely publicised even such as Hillsborough is.

Then just imagine what they could do when the camera's aren't focused on them, scary thought eh!

[Spellczech]

The bit I struggle with is how the verdict was "unlawful". I can see that the decision to open the gate was ill-considered, but was it not done to ease a crush at the turnstiles? Could this be negligence? Perhaps, but so then was the design of the stadium entrances and failure to have either enough turnstiles or enough open. Was it a cash gate? If so, was this not also ill-considered? But cash gates were common at this time...were there people allowed in who did not have tickets? If so then these people must have been excited to get a freebie and in a hurry to get into the stadium proper believing kickoff was in 2 minutes...Surely anyone without a ticket who gave even the slightest push, which when magnified by 2000 other people pressing together must be a bit culpable for the massive pressure at the fence?

 

Now I have no doubt that the police made errors and the efforts to bury those errors are despicable, perhaps criminal in their own right, but surely there are other parties who must also shoulder some blame? Sheffield Wednesday FC for the design of the stadium or staffing levels; the local council for planning and design failures; and some Liverpool fans for perhaps trying to get a freebie. I dont think the blame can lie with just one man or one organisation. It just doesn't ring true...people always want to assign blame but sometimes so many factors are to blame that you just have to accept that something was an unfortunate combination of contributory factors ie a perfect storm...

[Currahee!]

Thousands of ticketless fans ? Everyone who has ever read or even skimmed through any of the enquiry reports knows this has been de-bunked years ago.

There were 124 ticketless fans in and around the stadium that day. Honestly mate, go do some reading.

There were less Liverpool fans in the ground than tickets sold too.

[Rudy T]

The bit I struggle with is how the verdict was "unlawful". I can see that the decision to open the gate was ill-considered, but was it not done to ease a crush at the turnstiles? Could this be negligence? Perhaps, but so then was the design of the stadium entrances and failure to have either enough turnstiles or enough open. Was it a cash gate? If so, was this not also ill-considered? But cash gates were common at this time...were there people allowed in who did not have tickets? If so then these people must have been excited to get a freebie and in a hurry to get into the stadium proper believing kickoff was in 2 minutes...Surely anyone without a ticket who gave even the slightest push, which when magnified by 2000 other people pressing together must be a bit culpable for the massive pressure at the fence?

 

Now I have no doubt that the police made errors and the efforts to bury those errors are despicable, perhaps criminal in their own right, but surely there are other parties who must also shoulder some blame? Sheffield Wednesday FC for the design of the stadium or staffing levels; the local council for planning and design failures; and some Liverpool fans for perhaps trying to get a freebie. I dont think the blame can lie with just one man or one organisation. It just doesn't ring true...people always want to assign blame but sometimes so many factors are to blame that you just have to accept that something was an unfortunate combination of contributory factors ie a perfect storm...

6. Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed? To answer 'yes' to this question, the jurors must be sure of the following:

 

Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died

 

Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care

 

Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths

 

Finally, the jury must be sure that the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence."

 

Jury's answer: Yes

[Boab]

This is becoming ridiculous.  Either people are thick or are trolling.  When will people realise the fans WERE NOT to blame for this disaster.  

 

Some people should try reading up on this before commenting, it's beyond a joke now.  

 

Indeed.

 

The thread should be now onto the possibility of criminal proceedings and how that would pan out.

 

The fact that people are having to keep repeating facts to the Mensa crowd is, indeed, beyond a joke. 

[Mikey1874]

6. Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed? To answer 'yes' to this question, the jurors must be sure of the following:

 

Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died

 

Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care

 

Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths

 

Finally, the jury must be sure that the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence."

 

Jury's answer: Yes

Relatively straightforward planning taking account of good practice and experience of previous recent games at venue would have prevented the deaths.

 

That, not just the opening of the exit gates would lead reasonable people to a finding of gross negligence.

[Spellczech]

6. Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed? To answer 'yes' to this question, the jurors must be sure of the following:

Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died

Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care

Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths

Finally, the jury must be sure that the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence."

Jury's answer: Yes

thanks. I concede I have not devoured the detail on this case. So, if we replace Duckenfield with the guy in charge of the staffing at turnstiles, I wonder if the jury would've found him culpable too? Dont, get me wrong, I'm not saying the fans did it etc, but I'm just not convinced that it was all down to Duckenfield's decision either...

[Mikey1874]

thanks. I concede I have not devoured the detail on this case. So, if we replace Duckenfield with the guy in charge of the staffing at turnstiles, I wonder if the jury would've found him culpable too? Dont, get me wrong, I'm not saying the fans did it etc, but I'm just not convinced that it was all down to Duckenfield's decision either...

Duckenfield, to be fair who has admitted responsibility, was in charge of the operation at the ground including turnstyles.

 

There are other more senior people who made decisions affecting what happened eg not allowing more than one ambulence in.

 

Then there is everyone else including Sheffield Wednesday, the council etc.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Mikey1874

[RobNox]

The bit I struggle with is how the verdict was "unlawful". I can see that the decision to open the gate was ill-considered, but was it not done to ease a crush at the turnstiles? Could this be negligence? Perhaps, but so then was the design of the stadium entrances and failure to have either enough turnstiles or enough open. Was it a cash gate? If so, was this not also ill-considered? But cash gates were common at this time...were there people allowed in who did not have tickets? If so then these people must have been excited to get a freebie and in a hurry to get into the stadium proper believing kickoff was in 2 minutes...Surely anyone without a ticket who gave even the slightest push, which when magnified by 2000 other people pressing together must be a bit culpable for the massive pressure at the fence?

 

Now I have no doubt that the police made errors and the efforts to bury those errors are despicable, perhaps criminal in their own right, but surely there are other parties who must also shoulder some blame? Sheffield Wednesday FC for the design of the stadium or staffing levels; the local council for planning and design failures; and some Liverpool fans for perhaps trying to get a freebie. I dont think the blame can lie with just one man or one organisation. It just doesn't ring true...people always want to assign blame but sometimes so many factors are to blame that you just have to accept that something was an unfortunate combination of contributory factors ie a perfect storm...

There would not have been a cash gate,  FA Cup Finals are all ticket.  The decision to open the gate, in itself, was not the fatal error.  Had the tunnel been closed then the fans who poured in through the gate would have been forced into the other sections of the terracing where there was still more than enough room.

 

It was the failure to close the tunnel before opening the gate that proved fatal.  The fans would have no idea that the section of the ground they were heading to was going to become massively overcrowded.  I know there are a lot of contributing factors that led to the situation that arose, but for me, had the police closed off the tunnel, then the catastrophe that occurred would have been avoided.

 

One of the sad things for me is that there had been previous incidents at Hillsborough, with crushes building up outside of the stadium because of inadequate turnstile facilities, and at a previous semi-final, the exit gate had been opened to allow fans into the ground and alleviate the danger building up outside.  However, crucially on that occasion, the match commander had foreseen the potential consequences and ordered the tunnel to be closed before opening the gate.

 

The sad bit for me is that the warning signs were there for years, but not acted upon.  As seems to be the case in a lot of things, it takes a tragedy to happen before the authorities sit up and take notice.

[Rudy T]

Relatively straightforward planning taking account of good practice and experience of previous recent games at venue would have prevented the deaths.

 

That, not just the opening of the exit gates would lead reasonable people to a finding of gross negligence.

He didn't even read the brief on the stadium had no idea of its lay out or any notes left by the previous match commander (Mole). His arrogance knew no bounds.

 

The fact he then went on the piss that night just makes it even more stomach churning.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Rudy T

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

The brand new acting Chief Constable of SYP is now stepping down because she's the subject of an investigation according to David Conn.

[Rudy T]

 

 

One of the sad things for me is that there had been previous incidents at Hillsborough, with crushes building up outside of the stadium because of inadequate turnstile facilities, and at a previous semi-final, the exit gate had been opened to allow fans into the ground and alleviate the danger building up outside. However, crucially on that occasion, the match commander had foreseen the potential consequences and ordered the tunnel to be closed before opening the gate.

 

 

The very same match commander they inexplicably replaced with a guy who'd never been to Hillsborough before.

 

While Duckenfield is the one who will be charged his superior is equally as culpable, however he's dead so Duckenfield will be held solely responsible.

[CavySlaveJambo]

Since I can't respond as usual to the ticketless fan question BOTH the interim Taylor report and the independent panel reports are on the internet.

 

Plus I think the evidence from the HSE (or all the inquest evidence) is also on the internet. Sorry can't provide links but should be easy enough to find

[Fitzroy Pointon]

Since I can't respond as usual to the ticketless fan question BOTH the interim Taylor report and the independent panel reports are on the internet.

 

Plus I think the evidence from the HSE (or all the inquest evidence) is also on the internet. Sorry can't provide links but should be easy enough to find

The Taylor Report is interesting as it shows how much the police statements were altered.

[RobNox]

The very same match commander they inexplicably replaced with a guy who'd never been to Hillsborough before.

 

While Duckenfield is the one who will be charged his superior is equally as culpable, however he's dead so Duckenfield will be held solely responsible.

That's probably the nub of the issue.  It seems to me that Duckenfield just didn't realise the seriousness of the task in hand.  Why wouldn't he have familiarised himself with the stadium layout, spoken to the previous match commander, identified the potential risks and formulate contingency plans in advance?

 

I stand by my earlier point that, although there were many contributing factors that led to this tragedy, if the tunnel had been shut before opening the exit gate then all that would have happened would be some Liverpool fans complaining about missing the start of the game and still feeling a bit hemmed in at that end of the ground.  But they would all have got home alive.

[Big Slim Stylee]

You are indeed, Mr Incredible.

 

 

You are indeed missing something.

 

 

So to sum up, he is indeed incredible and missing something.  Part of his brain, probably.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Big Slim Stylee

[i8hibsh]

Not been on in a wee while. Who is winning?

[LeftBack]

This is very well said, the only thing I'd add is that the mistakes made on the day may not have been out of malice but they certainly were made, or some at least, out of a complete disregard for the wellbeing of the people they were supposed to be protecting. The failure to adequately plan and prepare for the match was primarily down to senior police simply not giving a toss about the fans that would be there.

Yes - I agree that is a good point. In fact I contradict myself by not making it - almost all football fans were treated as sub-human around this time and therefore their well-being was never on their agenda. And therefore they acted - subconsciously maybe - maliciously.

[cylawny]

Thing is that the warning signs were there for years, but not acted upon.  As seems to be the case in a lot of things, it takes a tragedy to happen before the authorities sit up and take notice.

 

I was at Anfield 1977, Wales v Scotland, of the 3 of us who travelled I was the only one with a ticket ( bought from Bobby Prentice at the Laird and Dog ).The Liverpool police opened the gates to the ticketless fans. there must have been a thousand or two. It was the end opposite the Kop. when Scotland scored you were lifted off your feet and carried 15 yards. 

 

It was standard practice as they would rather contain fans than have them run loose.

 

It was only a matter time till a disaster happened.

[John Findlay]

I was at Anfield 1977, Wales v Scotland, of the 3 of us who travelled I was the only one with a ticket ( bought from Bobby Prentice at the Laird and Dog ).The Liverpool police opened the gates to the ticketless fans. there must have been a thousand or two. It was the end opposite the Kop. when Scotland scored you were lifted off your feet and carried 15 yards.

 

It was standard practice as they would rather contain fans than have them run loose.

 

It was only a matter time till a disaster happened.

Anfield Road End

[Jamboelite]

I must be missing something here are you telling me that if the thousands of fans who turned up without tickets had stayed in their houses that this disaster would still have happened.

I don't think it would have so therefor the fans (ticketless) must take some of the blame.

Simple really.

For the ticketless fans blame debate.

 

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/hillsborough-ticketlessness-was-not-a-factor-and-this-is-how-we-know/

Edited April 28, 2016 by Jamboelite