Christianity

[redjambo]

Not even close. God doesn't exist, there is not a shred of evidence he does, there is no obligation to go around proving that things that aren't there are in fact not there.

 

If someone makes a bold claim that goes against every sense that a rational human being has then the obligation is on them and them alone to prove it.

 

You can't prove a two headed cow with male genitalia on it's face didn't create the universe, is its existence just as likely as God? If not why not?

 

The lack of evidence of something does not provide proof of fact, it merely contributes to the probability of its existence/occurrence or otherwise.

 

The arguments of people who talk in absolutist terms, who describe things as "fact" when they are not, should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and that sadly includes you.

 

It may be the case that a two-headed cow with male genitalia on its face created the universe. I have no idea and, frankly, neither do you.

[BigC]

Having worked in scientific research for a number of years I can tell you that understanding within science constantly changes and today's facts are tomorrow's new research challenges. If science is truly the answer then surely it could create something from nothing? Until then the big bang etc is nothing but the theory of man.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers, but it's the best way humans have to get as close to the answers as possible.

 

Asserting that science doesn't have all the answers suggests that religion does. Which is nonsense.

[BigC]

Its interesting that its quite normal not to believe in god as it tends to defy rational analytical thinking.

 

Until such time as you have a personal crisis like a gravely ill child. Then things change suddenly.

It's interesting in terms of human psychology.

 

But the fact that people become more illogical in desperate times does nothing to prove the existence of any gods.

[redjambo]

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers, but it's the best way humans have to get as close to the answers as possible.

 

Asserting that science doesn't have all the answers suggests that religion does. Which is nonsense.

 

People may infer that suggestion, but in my opinion it's certainly not the case.

 

It's a healthy attitude to recognise that science does not have all the answers, rather than treat science as a replacement god, but to affirm that science is the best means with which we can strive to fill in those gaps in our knowledge.

[BigC]

Hi BigC, there's the thing. I don't really think that most people who believe there is a God feel that way. I accept there might be loads of reasons for that which could easily play into the unicorn scenario if things were different. I don't know much about them, but if society around us had assured us for hundreds of years that the unicorn was more than a mythical creature, maybe as many people would feel the same about the existence of unicorns as about a God or gods.

 

For me, there is a difference though. Something seems to gnaw away at people all over the place, and through the ages, about the divine. I'm sure that was often because our predecessors didn't understand stuff that we do now, and so the explanation had to be some superhuman /supernatural being. But we really can't lay that charge at many of people who believe in a God these days. I had an astrophysicist tell me recently that he'd given up being an atheist because it wasn't tenable any more to dismiss evidence for some sort of conspiracy behind what we see around us. He certainly would leave me behind intellectually and obviously in terms of scientific endeavour and he was totally in the 'no God' camp, so what's going on there? I'm not sure people get that with unicorns. Or maybe they do and don't admit to it.

 

I'm not appealing to authority there - just musing over it myself really.

I would submit that the reasons for this can be explained by evolution and psychology.

 

The reason humans are scared of the dark is because since the dawn of humanity there have been predators who have used it as cover to hunt and eat us.

 

Humans have survived because we look for patterns, cause and effect etc.

 

Belief in a higher power is primarily a side effect of that.

[aussieh]

It's interesting in terms of human psychology.

 

But the fact that people become more illogical in desperate times does nothing to prove the existence of any gods.

Just because people dont believe, or understand something, doesnt mean it doent exist.

[aussieh]

It's interesting in terms of human psychology.

 

But the fact that people become more illogical in desperate times does nothing to prove the existence of any gods.

Just because people dont believe, or understand something, doesnt mean it doent exist.

[BigC]

It's a healthy attitude to recognise that science does not have all the answers, rather than treat science as a replacement god.

I know of no one who treats science as a replacement God.

 

The way you have described how science should be viewed, is in my opinion, exactly how it is viewed.

[aussieh]

I would submit that the reasons for this can be explained by evolution and psychology.

 

The reason humans are scared of the dark is because since the dawn of humanity there have been predators who have used it as cover to hunt and eat us.

 

Humans have survived because we look for patterns, cause and effect etc.

 

Belief in a higher power is primarily a side effect of that.

The Sun, the original God?.

[BigC]

Just because people dont believe, or understand something, doesnt mean it doent exist.

True.

 

If only you had a better understanding of unicorns, I'd be able to convince you they were real, despite the lack of evidence.

[BigC]

The Sun, the original God?.

U wot m8?

[aussieh]

True.

 

If only you had a better understanding of unicorns, I'd be able to convince you they were real, despite the lack of evidence.

Unicorn, no idea, but we've dug up weirder creatures than a horned horse.So i wouldnt rule it out.

[redjambo]

I know of no one who treats science as a replacement God.

 

The way you have described how science should be viewed, is in my opinion, exactly how it is viewed.

 

You're lucky to know the right people then. I've certainly met some science evangelists in my time, usually those trying to use science as a counter to religion (although they're two separate things).

 

"Exactly how it is viewed". I have no idea what you mean by that clause. To whom are you referring? There are many who live with a fusion of science and religion in their lives, who believe that religion answers those questions which science is unable to. Are you denying they exist?

[redjambo]

Unicorn, no idea, but we've dug up weirder creatures than a horned horse .So i wouldnt rule it out.

 

Good. Always keep a part of your brain sceptical and open to re-interpretation of the "truth".

[AlphonseCapone]

The lack of evidence of something does not provide proof of fact, it merely contributes to the probability of its existence/occurrence or otherwise.

 

The arguments of people who talk in absolutist terms, who describe things as "fact" when they are not, should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and that sadly includes you.

 

It may be the case that a two-headed cow with male genitalia on its face created the universe. I have no idea and, frankly, neither do you.

Funnily enough, I agree exactly with you in most cases and previously I did with the existence of God, I always claimed to be 99.9% certain he didn't exist, leaving that 0.1% in case something came along that proved his existence.

 

But then I realised this was pandering to religious stupidity. Why was I even contemplating, however small, the probability of a God? Because of a silly book. I'd be as well also leaving 0.1% of a chance for Hogwarts or the BFG existing.

 

There is not a single shred of evidence for God, not a single one in billions of years, that's pretty overwhelming. If you want to spend your life leaving open the possibility of the existence of every single thing you can imagine then good luck to you.

 

You are also desperate to equate this to science. See when it comes to scientific endeavours, I will never claim something as fact, even those things with overwhelming evidence such as evolution because of how science operates, continually gathering evidence, the possibility of disproving something is always there. Religion doesn't fall into this category, it can't be disproved, so it doesn't fall into scientific remit.

 

You are elevating stupidity to a level it does not deserve.

[aussieh]

U wot m8?

Every ancient civilisation worshipped the Sun.

[redjambo]

Funnily enough, I agree exactly with you in most cases and previously I did with the existence of God, I always claimed to be 99.9% certain he didn't exist, leaving that 0.1% in case something came along that proved his existence.

 

But then I realised this was pandering to religious stupidity. Why was I even contemplating, however small, the probability of a God? Because of a silly book. I'd be as well also leaving 0.1% of a chance for Hogwarts or the BFG existing.

 

There is not a single shred of evidence for God, not a single one in billions of years, that's pretty overwhelming. If you want to spend your life leaving open the possibility of the existence of every single thing you can imagine then good luck to you.

 

You are also desperate to equate this to science. See when it comes to scientific endeavours, I will never claim something as fact, even those things with overwhelming evidence such as evolution because of how science operates, continually gathering evidence, the possibility of disproving something is always there. Religion doesn't fall into this category, it can't be disproved, so it doesn't fall into scientific remit.

 

You are elevating stupidity to a level it does not deserve.

 

But you weren't pandering to religious stupidity. All you were doing was keeping an open mind, not believing in anything 100%. That's a healthy attitude, not a stupid one.

[BigC]

Every ancient civilisation worshipped the Sun.

I'm aware of that, I'm still no closer to grasping the point you are trying to make.

[aussieh]

I'm aware of that, I'm still no closer to grasping the point you are trying to make.

Is that, the origin of religion and god?.

And life.

[tynietot]

If you're going to worship anything, worship The Sun.

Without it there would be no life, ANYWHERE.

[aussieh]

If you're going to worship anything, worship The Sun.

Without it there would be no life, ANYWHERE.

The creator.

[BigC]

You're lucky to know the right people then. I've certainly met some science evangelists in my time, usually those trying to use science as a counter to religion (although they're two separate things).

 

"Exactly how it is viewed". I have no idea what you mean by that clause. To whom are you referring? There are many who live with a fusion of science and religion in their lives, who believe that religion answers those questions which science is unable to. Are you denying they exist?

I'm suggesting that most scientifically literate people see science for what it is - a method of obtaining information and improving understanding, not as a religion.

 

My point was on science as a religion and was arguing against your assertion that people see it as a religion.

 

If you pick any crazy belief then you'll be able to find someone on the internet who believes it, but i don't think that view is in any way widespread and has not been represented by anyone in this discussion, so I think it's largely irrelevant.

 

Science and religion are two separate things and there are many scientists who are also religious.

 

But although they are separate, they do seek to answer the same questions, such as how life began therefore they do overlap.

 

So whilst it would be wrong to say religious people can't contribute to science, I think it is fair to say that a young earth creationist probably isn't going to advance our knowledge in the field of evolutionary biology.

[BigC]

Is that, the origin of religion and god?.

And life.

Yes.

 

And you can prove it exists by looking up at the sky.

[aussieh]

So, there is a god.

[BigC]

So, there is a god.

There is a large hot ball of plasma at the centre of our solar system that was worshiped by primitive tribes.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Yes.

 

And you can prove it exists by looking up at the sky.

 

Not too directly or you will prove another scientific principle

[SE16 3LN]

Religion and Nationalism are throwbacks to early humans. We weren't yet bright enough to understand anything so we started to use the metaphysical to explain what we didn't understand. Nowadays of course it's still used to keep stupid people under control and protect the wealth and power of the rich.

 

I include Nationalism because in a similar way it dates back to early humans and their instinctive behaviour. Protect your own territory and tribe and fight for it. Of course we managed to progress in spite of these two regressive and destructive elements of our species. However, the stupid and the insane keep pulling humankind back, probably because of fear and stupidity. 

 

The world would be a much better place without them.

[Riddley Walker]

Funnily enough, I agree exactly with you in most cases and previously I did with the existence of God, I always claimed to be 99.9% certain he didn't exist, leaving that 0.1% in case something came along that proved his existence.

 

But then I realised this was pandering to religious stupidity. Why was I even contemplating, however small, the probability of a God? Because of a silly book. I'd be as well also leaving 0.1% of a chance for Hogwarts or the BFG existing.

 

There is not a single shred of evidence for God, not a single one in billions of years, that's pretty overwhelming. If you want to spend your life leaving open the possibility of the existence of every single thing you can imagine then good luck to you.

 

You are also desperate to equate this to science. See when it comes to scientific endeavours, I will never claim something as fact, even those things with overwhelming evidence such as evolution because of how science operates, continually gathering evidence, the possibility of disproving something is always there. Religion doesn't fall into this category, it can't be disproved, so it doesn't fall into scientific remit.

 

You are elevating stupidity to a level it does not deserve.

Nail. On. Heed.

[aussieh]

Religion and Nationalism are throwbacks to early humans. We weren't yet bright enough to understand anything so we started to use the metaphysical to explain what we didn't understand. Nowadays of course it's still used to keep stupid people under control and protect the wealth and power of the rich.

 

I include Nationalism because in a similar way it dates back to early humans and their instinctive behaviour. Protect your own territory and tribe and fight for it. Of course we managed to progress in spite of these two regressive and destructive elements of our species. However, the stupid and the insane keep pulling humankind back, probably because of fear and stupidity.

 

The world would be a much better place without them.

Imperial British Nationalism, you fecking better believe it.

[jake]

The lack of evidence of something does not provide proof of fact, it merely contributes to the probability of its existence/occurrence or otherwise.

 

The arguments of people who talk in absolutist terms, who describe things as "fact" when they are not, should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and that sadly includes you.

 

It may be the case that a two-headed cow with male genitalia on its face created the universe. I have no idea and, frankly, neither do you.

 

 

 

Quality.

 

Boo yaaaaa !

[Maple Leaf]

Science is about how.

 

Religion is about why.

 

How does religion respond to the position that there is no "why"?

[moogsy]

The 'you can't prove he doesn't exist' argument is a laughably fatuous. If God exists, the evidence should be there to support this. With the lack of such evidence and until such evidence arises, the only reasonable conclusion to come to is that there is no God. Carl Sagan, one of the greatest minds of our age summed it up with a good analogy:

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

 

Interested to know if the believers actually think there is any tangIble evidence pointing towards the existence of God? 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

The 'you can't prove he doesn't exist' argument is a laughably fatuous. If God exists, the evidence should be there to support this. With the lack of such evidence and until such evidence arises, the only reasonable conclusion to come to is that there is no God. Carl Sagan, one of the greatest minds of our age summed it up with a good analogy:

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

 

Interested to know if the believers actually think there is any tangIble evidence pointing towards the existence of God?

Never read that before but very interesting!

But what if they argue there is nothing to lose and all to gain by believing in god

[Norm]

Never read that before but very interesting!

But what if they argue there is nothing to lose and all to gain by believing in god

If all people had to do was believe, then fine. Most though, require you to live your life in a certain way to show your belief.

[moogsy]

Never read that before but very interesting!

But what if they argue there is nothing to lose and all to gain by believing in god

I think Pascal's wager is quite absurd in a number of ways.

 

There are literally thousands of religions and sects out there with different versions of God(s). Which one do we pick to avoid losing everything?

 

It also implies that the odds of the two different choices being correct are roughly the same. In the absence of any evidence whatsoever, the likelihood of the vengeful God of Middle Eastern sheepherders being the creator of the universe is minutely small. Why on earth would I invest my time, resources and usually money based on this tiny possibility?

[deesidejambo]

How does religion respond to the position that there is no "why"?

Im not sure I get your meaning.  But as an example, the force of gravity is understood both from Newtonian and quantum perspectives.  Thats the "how".  But the reason why masses are attracted to each other is as yet totally unknown and is unlikely ever to be known.

 

I know that doesn't necessarily mean there is a god but it is something that science can never address.  There has to be some faith (not religion) that there is a reason for gravity. 

 

As to the challenge to my other post about personal crises - yes of course that does not prove there is a god either, but then why do people who previously are "rational" resort to prayer when they need help?       Those who take the piss out of faith will at some time face a serious crisis and then their rationality will be tested.  

[Riddley Walker]

Im not sure I get your meaning. But as an example, the force of gravity is understood both from Newtonian and quantum perspectives. Thats the "how". But the reason why masses are attracted to each other is as yet totally unknown and is unlikely ever to be known.

 

I know that doesn't necessarily mean there is a god but it is something that science can never address. There has to be some faith (not religion) that there is a reason for gravity.

 

As to the challenge to my other post about personal crises - yes of course that does not prove there is a god either, but then why do people who previously are "rational" resort to prayer when they need help? Those who take the piss out of faith will at some time face a serious crisis and then their rationality will be tested.

Because tragedy makes people desperate and irrational.

[2NaFish]

Im not sure I get your meaning.  But as an example, the force of gravity is understood both from Newtonian and quantum perspectives.  Thats the "how".  But the reason why masses are attracted to each other is as yet totally unknown and is unlikely ever to be known.

 

I know that doesn't necessarily mean there is a god but it is something that science can never address.  There has to be some faith (not religion) that there is a reason for gravity. 

 

As to the challenge to my other post about personal crises - yes of course that does not prove there is a god either, but then why do people who previously are "rational" resort to prayer when they need help?       Those who take the piss out of faith will at some time face a serious crisis and then their rationality will be tested.  

 

You say that religion deals with the why. Saying that presupposes that there is indeed a why. 

 

Say that religion is the answer to the question "what is the meaning of life" - who said life has to have a meaning? If you need to make the logical jump that there is a meaning to existence then the foundation for religion is just as shaky as it ever was.

[N Lincs Jambo]

Im not sure I get your meaning.  But as an example, the force of gravity is understood both from Newtonian and quantum perspectives.  Thats the "how".  But the reason why masses are attracted to each other is as yet totally unknown and is unlikely ever to be known.

 

I know that doesn't necessarily mean there is a god but it is something that science can never address.  There has to be some faith (not religion) that there is a reason for gravity. 

 

As to the challenge to my other post about personal crises - yes of course that does not prove there is a god either, but then why do people who previously are "rational" resort to prayer when they need help?       Those who take the piss out of faith will at some time face a serious crisis and then their rationality will be tested.  

 

When I was 15 my dad lay at death's door in hospital after having 2 massive heart attacks within 5 minutes of each other a few days after having a lung removed due to cancer. I wasn't sure at the time about God, but I prayed for my dad. Did sod all good, he was dead a few weeks later....

 

The media love tales of how someone's situation was so bad, someone else prayed, and guess what , they survived. How come they never tell the tales of those whose prayers go unanswered??? I have my own views on that...

[Ron Burgundy]

When I was 15 my dad lay at death's door in hospital after having 2 massive heart attacks within 5 minutes of each other a few days after having a lung removed due to cancer. I wasn't sure at the time about God, but I prayed for my dad. Did sod all good, he was dead a few weeks later....

 

The media love tales of how someone's situation was so bad, someone else prayed, and guess what , they survived. How come they never tell the tales of those whose prayers go unanswered??? I have my own views on that...

Not sure it's meant to work like that. Don't really believe in god but I want something so I'll pray.

[151]

"Zeitgeist: The greatest story ever told" explains religion in 9 minutes.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

What do you make of the story of Colton Burpo - a 4 year old boy who had a near death experience and saw heaven??!

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/magazine/my-son-went-to-heaven-and-all-i-got-was-a-no-1-best-seller.html?referrer=

 

They have even made a movie about it - 'heaven is for real' :-

 

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt1929263/

[Riddley Walker]

What do you make of the story of Colton Burpo - a 4 year old boy who had a near death experience and saw heaven??!

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/magazine/my-son-went-to-heaven-and-all-i-got-was-a-no-1-best-seller.html?referrer=

 

They have even made a movie about it - 'heaven is for real' :-

 

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt1929263/

I make that he's talking shite or has been made to believe it by his father, who is a pastor.

 

The kid was under 4 years old when it happened.

 

Only utter nutjobs would come close to believing this story.

[Riddley Walker]

I've said this before but i stand by it: Jambo in Hamilton is the best troll JKB has ever seen

[Jambo 4 Ever]

I make that he's talking shite or has been made to believe it by his father, who is a pastor.

 

The kid was under 4 years old when it happened.

 

Only utter nutjobs would come close to believing this story.

Yeah I do think it is very convienent that his father is a pastor...  but still makes you think

[Ray Gin]

Yeah I do think it is very convienent that his father is a pastor...  but still makes you think

 

Thinking isn't usually a strong point for religious people.

[Riddley Walker]

Yeah I do think it is very convienent that his father is a pastor... but still makes you think

Does that story genuinely make you think heaven might be real?

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Does that story genuinely make you think heaven might be real?

How else do you explain a kid describing everything the way he did though?

tbh I don't know what to make of it

[Riddley Walker]

How else do you explain a kid describing everything the way he did though?

 

 

tbh I don't know what to make of it

Because he had heard his extremely religious father talk about heaven like that? Because he was 3?

[GlasgoJambo]

Jesus was in purple so story checks out with me.