Diego10 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Lolz at all the folk who think this would be in any way comparable to the days of carryouts in the terracing and pitched battles between old firm fans. England had the worst hooligans in Europe, to the extent they got their teams completely banned from European football. They can get a drink. It wouldn't make anyone more drunk. It wouldn't lead to any more violence. It would be a facility for folk who want to buy an overpriced pint to do so and make the club a small amount of extra money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't think that is the way they should be going about it though, let police deal with any arseholes and let the rest of us get on with it and have a drink if we choose to do so. Idiots will be idiots no matter what, selling alchohol before the game and at half time isn't going to change that. Regretfully selling the idiots alchohol at the game is hardly going to improve their behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo_Gaz Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 can remember the days of drunks wasting the game for other people by there behavour, lots of families at games now, kids should not be subjected to the kind of behavour I E foul language, aggression. In my oppinion this is a backward step and I can see parents stopping there children from going to games. Bit overly dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 In my experience, the English model works best for away fans so when they arrive at the ground they are not having to look for a 'safe' bar or be walking the streets. They can get safely into the ground and have a couple of drinks in a safe environment. Home fans tend to use the pubs more, unless it is a new stadium built out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Would cause chaos in the main stand with folk nipping out for a pint now and again and forcing the whole row to stand up to let them out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm123fc Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Its nothing to do with class in my view. I have no recollection of rugger buggers trashing city centres, or invading pitches, or throwing stuff at other fans. Will removing the ban make that stop. Will it make the games easier to police. Will it reduce domestic violence after OF games? Will it entice families to games? No. This is all about a desperate Labour MP ( not MSP mind) seeking a popular vote. I would ask him to travel with his favourite team, and spend time with their travelling support, and then come back and tell us that he supports giving them even more drink inside the ground. The unfortunate aspect of this proposal is that it is being championed by my MP - the opportunistic Jim Murphy. Wilson is right in that Murphy is hitching himself to a series of bandwagons in an increasingly desperate (but totally transparent) campaign to win back previous Labour supporters who voted Yes. He is frantically trying to appeal to the "working class" voter who is not convinced of his left-wing credentials. Perhaps he should be reminded of what happened at Tynecastle (twice), Dens Park, Fir Park and Brentford. It is that track record that could understandably persuade people that alcohol consumption at football grounds in Scotland is not a good idea. If we could have this debate free of political spin we might make some progress; but in the end, the difficult part is how can you discriminate between those fans who will drink responsibly and those that will completely spoil the match for other supporters. As we have seen recently, police and stewards have struggled to maintain order even when no alcohol has been served at the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxteth O'Grady Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Would cause chaos in the main stand with folk nipping out for a pint now and again and forcing the whole row to stand up to let them out And increased visits to the toilets. Won't do much good for the struggling pubs in Gorgie either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie Neilson Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Put the beer in a separate stall from pies and non alcoholic drinks Pies ques are long enough without having to wait on the lassies pouring pints Also some of the staff will be under 18, so either they all get binned, or put it in a separate area with over 18s selling it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am for alcohol being sold at football grounds in a controlled fashion. 1. Could be limited to season ticket holders only initially (ST card must be scanned to register the sale against the customer account). 2. Family stand (Gorgie Rd end) excluded from sales although people welcome to walk through to the Wheatfield. 3. Sales shouldn't take place at the usual vending stands - should be using mobile vending like at the following link: http://www.thirstsolution.com/universal-thirst-pack/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadjambo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't think Tynecastle and pretty much every football ground in the country has the facilities to maximise any potential revenue from the selling of alcohol, or anything else for that matter. I visited Chase Field in Phoenix a year or two ago and they certainly know how to get fans to part with cash once in the stadium. Branded food kiosks everywhere with no queues. Bars selling a variety of alcoholic beverages again with no queues. Guys walking round selling snacks and beer to those fans who didn't want to leave their seats. And there was even small stalls selling only spirits if you fancied a few shorts. It's hard enough to get a pie in the football as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Loblaw Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Lolz at all the folk who think this would be in any way comparable to the days of carryouts in the terracing and pitched battles between old firm fans. England had the worst hooligans in Europe, to the extent they got their teams completely banned from European football. They can get a drink. It wouldn't make anyone more drunk. It wouldn't lead to any more violence. It would be a facility for folk who want to buy an overpriced pint to do so and make the club a small amount of extra money. Nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie Neilson Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am for alcohol being sold at football grounds in a controlled fashion. 1. Could be limited to season ticket holders only initially (ST card must be scanned to register the sale against the customer account). 2. Family stand (Gorgie Rd end) excluded from sales although people welcome to walk through to the Wheatfield. 3. Sales shouldn't take place at the usual vending stands - should be using mobile vending like at the following link: http://www.thirstsolution.com/universal-thirst-pack/ Why season ticket holders only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut The Crap Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The whole matchday experience today is exponentially more pleasant than it was before the ban was introduced. I see absolutely no reason to go back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't think Tynecastle and pretty much every football ground in the country has the facilities to maximise any potential revenue from the selling of alcohol, or anything else for that matter. I visited Chase Field in Phoenix a year or two ago and they certainly know how to get fans to part with cash once in the stadium. Branded food kiosks everywhere with no queues. Bars selling a variety of alcoholic beverages again with no queues. Guys walking round selling snacks and beer to those fans who didn't want to leave their seats. And there was even small stalls selling only spirits if you fancied a few shorts. It's hard enough to get a pie in the football as it is. Both you and Mr Cat have made similar comments about facilities and this isn't meant to sound snippy in any way, but I'm 100% certain they're not going to go and implement any ideas which carry financial risk for us - and especially not at trial stage. What's the harm in trying it out? I'm also pretty certain they would figure out a sensible way to do it too. The days when we had a daft idea and went ahead with it like a bull in a china shop are well and truly gone. Personally I'd trust the current management team to do this carefully and do it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beverley Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 No harm in trying it out but like many others its not a facility I'm bothered about one way or the other. Warm overpriced lager isn't my thing but why stop those who fancy a beer not have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upthehill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Enabling responsible family businesses like Hearts to decide if they want to sell alcohol to their fans in the cheap seats as well as to their fans in the expensive seats has to be a positive thing. It'll still be the pub for me, but I'm looking forwards to less congestion at the turnstiles at 14.55 as more people are in the stadium earlier. The idea that I can get a drink at the rugby, cricket, darts, boxing and any other sport you care to mention but not at the football is beyond me. We Scots are not so different to the English, the idea that Newcastle fans are responsible enough to choose to drink or not but we Hearts fans are not is a nonsense. The idea that being able to afford paying upwards of ?100 for a hospitality ticket makes you more responsible than the person who cannot afford the hospitality ticket is again a nonsense. As for the politicians? That's just how the laws get changed. Ruth Davidson has been banging on about this for 18 months, Jim Murphy has come on side now and I see this happening, and soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreativeCat Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Both you and Mr Cat have made similar comments about facilities and this isn't meant to sound snippy in any way, but I'm 100% certain they're not going to go and implement any ideas which carry financial risk for us - and especially not at trial stage. What's the harm in trying it out? I'm also pretty certain they would figure out a sensible way to do it too. The days when we had a daft idea and went ahead with it like a bull in a china shop are well and truly gone. Personally I'd trust the current management team to do this carefully and do it well. If we can break even and it creates some new jobs for folk then fantastic. I just think it sounds a lot better than it will be in reality. It sounds like i'm trying to put a massive downer on it but i reckon the trials will actually go pretty well due to novelty value. I think you'd need to run the trial for a full season to really see if there was any interest in it. Stadium lager isn't really that enjoyable an experience, especially when you start getting into the winter months and i think the folk that drink before matches will on large always favour the pub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Can you imagine the carnage with the ugly sisters alone never mind the numpties at every club not withstanding the health issues its a no from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Voted No for specific reasons relating to HMFC. If a football team is part of a community, that community should share in any prosperity that arises from that team. The drink and food establishments do well out of the club on matchdays and I wouldn't vote for anything that might upset that balance. As I say, only talking HMFC here..the geography of other grounds might make the inclusive match experience better for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveofthegame Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I would fully support any idea that can potentially boost club revenues. Whether I would actually choose to buy myself a low alcohol beer during a game is another matter entirely. It would be a very rare purchase for me, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 If we can break even and it creates some new jobs for folk then fantastic. I just think it sounds a lot better than it will be in reality. It sounds like i'm trying to put a massive downer on it but i reckon the trials will actually go pretty well due to novelty value. I think you'd need to run the trial for a full season to really see if there was any interest in it. Stadium lager isn't really that enjoyable an experience, especially when you start getting into the winter months and i think the folk that drink before matches will on large always favour the pub. It works all year round in other stadiums so I guess there must be something to it. Plus consider how many of us pay ridiculous sums for crap, warm drink at various other forms of entertainment and you get an idea of just how it might fit in with a football match too. I know you're not trying to put a downer on it, there's obviously a good few things they'll need to think about in advance and even then there's no guarantee it'll be a success but having the freedom to at least get creative and try it out in the first place would be nice. There's such a good team in place at Tynecastle at the moment, it would be really interesting to see what they come up with. Tbh, few things can take me away from my trusty hot drink in Bovril season (October-March) and unless they decide to offer (crap warm) wine then I'll probably never bother with the bar area but I'm sure many others will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiHMFC Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Can you imagine the carnage with the ugly sisters alone never mind the numpties at every club not withstanding the health issues its a no from me. What, when there is no fans in the stands singing sectarian abuse because they are all bunched up in the concourse waiting to get a pint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreativeCat Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It works all year round in other stadiums so I guess there must be something to it. Plus consider how many of us pay ridiculous sums for crap, warm drink at various other forms of entertainment and you get an idea of just how it might fit in with a football match too. I know you're not trying to put a downer on it, there's obviously a good few things they'll need to think about in advance and even then there's no guarantee it'll be a success but having the freedom to at least get creative and try it out in the first place would be nice. There's such a good team in place at Tynecastle at the moment, it would be really interesting to see what they come up with. Tbh, few things can take me away from my trusty hot drink in Bovril season (October-March) and unless they decide to offer (crap warm) wine then I'll probably never bother with the bar area but I'm sure many others will. Mulled wine replacing the lager in October? I think it's daft that it's banned tbh, if clubs want to do it then they should be allowed. I wonder if they'd still ban it for certain games/away supports etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieholt Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Not for me. We have a resident pisshead who always has to go to the bog a couple of times every game. If booze was available before the game and at half time, we'd be up and down like jack in the boxes letting them out and in. Nothing against the principle - just the practicalities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamorgan Jambo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 That is an average of over 3 pints for every man, woman and child attending - seems a bit high no? I'll check with the former stadium manager (he lives in Australia now) in case my memory is off. It's not a great comparison though as these are large scale a few times a year events - and the whole stadium (built for the 1999 Rugby World Cup) is built around a maximum number of refreshment stands etc. Notably people are in the stadium well before kick off and there's various events/entertainment going on several hours before kick off. The better comparison would be English football where alcohol is readily available but not permitted (FIFA reg) to be sold or drunk in open sight of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadjambo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Both you and Mr Cat have made similar comments about facilities and this isn't meant to sound snippy in any way, but I'm 100% certain they're not going to go and implement any ideas which carry financial risk for us - and especially not at trial stage. What's the harm in trying it out? I'm also pretty certain they would figure out a sensible way to do it too. The days when we had a daft idea and went ahead with it like a bull in a china shop are well and truly gone. Personally I'd trust the current management team to do this carefully and do it well. I agree. I'm all for testing the idea. My comment was more a general observation about football stadia in general. They haven't been designed to maximise revenue nor provide spectators with great facilities. This isn't a criticism of any individual club, it's probably got a lot to do with all seater stadia pretty much being forced on every club at relatively short notice, many of whom didn't have the funds or foresight at the time to do it properly. What we do have is people in charge of the club who have great business brains and so far seem to be full of promising ideas for the future, which is great news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 At the moment its a no for me, simply because it's not a proper debate, but a cheap political gimmick raised by parties who'll do anything to avoid a horsing at the forthcoming general election. Its not an issue to be clouded with a general election. The reintroduction of alcohol at footy grounds is something to be debated in Hollyrood once the General Election is over and done with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadjambo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'll check with the former stadium manager (he lives in Australia now) in case my memory is off. It's not a great comparison though as these are large scale a few times a year events - and the whole stadium (built for the 1999 Rugby World Cup) is built around a maximum number of refreshment stands etc. Notably people are in the stadium well before kick off and there's various events/entertainment going on several hours before kick off. The better comparison would be English football where alcohol is readily available but not permitted (FIFA reg) to be sold or drunk in open sight of the ground. We were at a Sunderland game a few years ago and had a couple of corporate boxes. I was amazed that I could drink as much as I wanted in the box, but couldn't take a drop outside to the private balcony/seating area. Match was dire so stayed inside and had a beer while watching Sky for updates on the Hearts match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownkg Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am not absolutely against it per se but the very fact that the odious onanist Murphy wearing a rangers strip and telling us it is time to allow it again puts me very firmly in the no camp here. I cannot see logistically it would work unless the club are planning a big marquee in the Mcleod street car park which will have knock on effects(I might change to yes if my brother's company got the licence and franchise but that would not be for any reason other than self interest ( am I morphing into murphy?). Not sure the cost of it would make it a real goer unless there was effectively a specific area reserved for it which would make it more problematic for people getting to and from the "kioskpub"The gruesome twosome were the cause of the ban in the first place and my expectations that they would be the cause of this experiment failing again should it happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Can't see the SNP allowing this myself. We've got minimum pricing and now the lower drink drive limit which has basically put paid to have 1 drink with a meal and then driving. Most people who drive to games would be unable to have a drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Beer a American sports events is easy to get, well-regulated, and insanely expensive ($8/pint of decent-but-not-great beer is not unusual, particularly at major league events). And yet we all keep paying for it because it's part of the experience. If you're worried about safety, put a ?1 surcharge on all pints and use it to pay for extra police, then use those police to help crack down on sectarian chanting while they're there. Refuse to allow folks who are obviously drunk into the stadium to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neave Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I wouldn't be buying it myself but really don't see the problem with folk having a bottle or two of ?4 lager at HT if they want to. Folk are kidding themselves if they think people are going to get pished and cause trouble as a result of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck berrys hairline Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If it's not Bucky on tap then the SFPL will bin the trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldcastlerock2012 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I voted Yes to stop this stupid argument, which is all about politics and nothing to do with what's best for football fans. I'm in favour of beer for sale in nice stadiums with cup holders in seats, trays for buying rounds, lots of outlets to buy from and plenty of stand-up tables on the concourse for folk who don't want to take it back to their seat. In the average Scottish stadium it will be a horrible experience. The beer will be expensive and the crappiest, cheapest lager drunk from plastic cups to make it taste even worse. There will also be massive queues to buy from probably one tiny kiosk and they'll run out of trays after about 10 minutes. The place would be strewn with empty cups too. As a step forward in forcing clubs to modernise their facilities and get with the times it would be a good thing though, instead of treating football fans as sub-human pigsty dwellers. Security is a terrible reason for not doing it as most people will do it the first time and not enjoy it and it'll only be the die-hard drinkers who carry on, which will be no worse than the usual drunks in hospitality or who sneak in pissed. Ibrox and Parkhead could probably make it work facilities wise, but their games are almost all home fans so the chances of trouble are less (apart from more mayhem at OF games). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathgatejt Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Beer and popcorn what could possibly go wrong!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 mystery to me why people call this a "political" issue aside from those with some agenda enjoyed the discussion on Sportsound last evening with different views expressed giving clubs choice and might help them think about other fan related issues like safe standing should be possible maybe pilot at Rangers vs Dumbarton next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldcastlerock2012 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 mystery to me why people call this a "political" issue aside from those with some agenda enjoyed the discussion on Sportsound last evening with different views expressed giving clubs choice and might help them think about other fan related issues like safe standing should be possible maybe pilot at Rangers vs Dumbarton next season Because politicians are driving it in election year in a shameless attempt to win votes. If not political why is it being raised now to this extent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beverley Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Mulled wine replacing the lager in October? Now THATS a good idea. Mulled wine in place of my usual bovril would be fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Because politicians are driving it in election year in a shameless attempt to win votes. If not political why is it being raised now to this extent? Good point. The fact that Creepy Jim brought it up recently should scare people away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boabyarsebiscuit Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If that never-worked-a-day-in-his-life-9-years-a-student-and-nae-****ing-degree neocon new labour rat Murphy is in favour, count me out. Patronising expense thieving cockwad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 yeah - never do anything cos the wrong people suggest it at the wrong time some people live in a bubble - most people don't care about politics the rest of us get on with life and try to make improvements and if this can help clubs improve the experience of coming to football and income then its certainly worth considering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden Gorgie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I have voted no, basically because we have had an alcohol ban for as long as i have been attending football matches and we still experience trouble (some of it serious) at games here in Scotland. I can't see reintroducing drink at games doing anything but making things worse. The police have already practically admitted they cannot completely control large crowds of football fans. The 90 minutes of zero alcohol consumption can also act as a period for some bammers to sober up, and be less aggressive come the end of a game. If they have has access to alcohol within that period and their team loses, there is every chance they will cause trouble exiting the stadium and in surrounding areas. Not for me, and i like a good bevvy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldcastlerock2012 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 yeah - never do anything cos the wrong people suggest it at the wrong time some people live in a bubble - most people don't care about politics the rest of us get on with life and try to make improvements and if this can help clubs improve the experience of coming to football and income then its certainly worth considering I'm in favour of it on the basis that there's no real argument against it. I just think it'll be a crappy experience going by the fan experience in general in Scotland (considering our owner just had to publicly ask women not to flood the toilets with paper towels!) Let's not kid ourselves on though that this isn't politically motivated by a guy trying to win over football fans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 yeah - never do anything cos the wrong people suggest it at the wrong time some people live in a bubble - most people don't care about politics the rest of us get on with life and try to make improvements and if this can help clubs improve the experience of coming to football and income then its certainly worth considering Personally, Mickey, I was being a bit facetious about Creepy Jim. My original post..69...is my take on it. Most people don't care about politics though? Depressing if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airdriejambo3 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 with all the season tickets now being on cards, i dont see why they couldnt implement a 3 or 4 drink maximum per season ticket, you would need to scan the card at each purchase, i cant see it being to hard to write a bit code that would make this easily possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Out here, you can buy beer and drink it at your seat, no matter the sport. Grow up Scotland FFS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego10 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The political aspect of people objecting I find baffling. I don't like Murphy. I'm not voting for his party. Doesn't stop me agreeing with him on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Are we talking about consuming the beer at a bar area in the concourse - or being able to buy a pint beer then take it to your seat in the stand? I have no problem with the first option, however from my experience at Murrayfield where you can take your pint of beer to your seat, there are issues with drunks spilling their beer down the back of fans in front of them. I have witnessed this a few times and as rugby crowds tend to be a bit more 'civilised' it has not caused too much bother - but at a football match?? I see what you are saying re mess, however I'd support lightweight plastic bottles and taking to your seat. If it's at the concourse, let's face it, folk will either try to sneak them to their seat or down pints sharpish to get back to their seats. Neither of those are ideal scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The political aspect of people objecting I find baffling. I don't like Murphy. I'm not voting for his party. Doesn't stop me agreeing with him on this. I think the point is that Murphy is scrabbling about like a lost soul, trying to find anything that will make him more popular. I think they call it "Straw Clutching"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol1874 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I see what you are saying re mess, however I'd support lightweight plastic bottles and taking to your seat. If it's at the concourse, let's face it, folk will either try to sneak them to their seat or down pints sharpish to get back to their seats. Neither of those are ideal scenarios. Those plastic bottles aren't so lightweight when full though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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