TheMaganator Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Mhairi Black - just had the grave misfortune to listen to her on TV.. Potentially the biggest embarrassment in the history of this country.Out of the 100k or so members the SNP have, she is on the top 100 or so candidates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Out of the 100k or so members the SNP have, she is on the top 100 or so candidates. Says it all really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Mhairi Black - just had the grave misfortune to listen to her on TV.. Potentially the biggest embarrassment in the history of this country. Why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Why ? Personally, I don't see what she adds or brings to the table. Shes very little life experience beyond politics and to me that's a failing. Even her degree was in politics and she's not finished that off yet. She's also not painted herself as someone who's exactly fit for the job based on her publicly available statements. However, she's been elected and it's up to her to prove me wrong. After all one of the former Scottish Secretaries and the current Labour leader had a very similar back story to hers of student activist to MP with nothing in between... And that's working well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Personally, I don't see what she adds or brings to the table. Shes very little life experience beyond politics and to me that's a failing. Even her degree was in politics and she's not finished that off yet. She's also not painted herself as someone who's exactly fit for the job based on her publicly available statements. However, she's been elected and it's up to her to prove me wrong. After all one of the former Scottish Secretaries and the current Labour leader had a very similar back story to hers of student activist to MP with nothing in between... And that's working well... It's great if folk have energy and a different perspective (and I don't think she's a total bam like some think) but what does she offer other than being new and fired up? What's her economic analysis of FFA? What's her view on tackling ISIS? What specific reforms of the City of London does she propose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It's great if folk have energy and a different perspective (and I don't think she's a total bam like some think) but what does she offer other than being new and fired up? What's her economic analysis of FFA? What's her view on tackling ISIS? What specific reforms of the City of London does she propose? To be honest, it's not like the SNP's views on much of that will hold sway in that place. The Tories have a majority. I don't think they will slaughter themselves on Europe. I think they've learnt from that. So whatever influence the SNP may have is hard to see on issue by issue matters. Their key influence is on legislation affecting more powers for Scotland. And that's where I'd like to see the Tories offer some for, of devo-max to test the SNP's increasingly lukewarm reaction to it and to working with the Tories. But on Black she'll, like a lot of this new intake for all parties, sink or swim. If it's sink, then I'd wager she won't be getting reflected or have photo shoots with SNP high command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 To be honest, it's not like the SNP's views on much of that will hold sway in that place. The Tories have a majority. I don't think they will slaughter themselves on Europe. I think they've learnt from that. So whatever influence the SNP may have is hard to see on issue by issue matters. Their key influence is on legislation affecting more powers for Scotland. And that's where I'd like to see the Tories offer some for, of devo-max to test the SNP's increasingly lukewarm reaction to it and to working with the Tories. But on Black she'll, like a lot of this new intake for all parties, sink or swim. If it's sink, then I'd wager she won't be getting reflected or have photo shoots with SNP high command. I'd be interested in your (and others') view on this article: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/call-for-scottish-labour-to-break-from-uk-party-1-3769989 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 As for Mhari Black , if she is smart she will watch and learn for a while , think it will be difficult for a while as she will be followed closely by the media given her age . She will sink or swim just like any other MP . I see Cameron is thinking of having the Euro vote next year to avoid a clash with German and French elections being the given reason . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invernessjt Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Lots of people in my industry will pack their bags and head to London if taxes are raised significantly.. I already pay enough tax to pay the monthly Sky TV subscription for about 50 families - feck paying any more to keep a nation of people who feel they are "owed" a living or paying for thousands of hugely inefficient public sector jobs.Hahaha, aye right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invernessjt Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Out of the 100k or so members the SNP have, she is on the top 100 or so candidates.Do you seriously think that each member is a potential candidate???? That's like saying every Hearts season ticket holder is a potential 1st team player!! Fud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I did start one and a mod locked it temporarily until after the election. It's now unlocked. We'll let this thread run for a bit, but there's no point in having two similar threads running concurrently, so it will eventually be closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deodato Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 What do you think will happen at the Scottish Parliament elections, following the Westminster result. Having a single party state would be more worrying at home, (from a balanced democratic perspective) but less so in Westminster. My view is the SNP want to be Catalonia: a credible threat to withdraw providing enough leverage that makes staying worthwhile. So loading Westminster with a single party state enables a Catalonia-esque outcome to evolve. However, if the Scottish Parliament (which has a form of PR) was to be similarly dominated by a single party, wouldn't this be net-negative. Do you think Scottish voters will vote differently come the Scottish elections, and might the result be even more extreme on the next call? Enquiring minds in Nashville need to know. Deodato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 More alarming parallels: "the people have no right to be wrong" (16:01). "anybody who had fought in the British Army was on the wrong side of history" (17:28). "it didn't matter what your views were about Unionism or Constitutionalism, you were Irish republican whether you wanted to be or not" (18:48) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 And, "The Constitutional achievements of generations of Irish parliamentarians were dismissed with contempt." (19:15). Given our friend Sidsnot's declared aversion to the Jews, "'Granny, what about the Jews?' 'British propaganda.'" (20:07) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Why ? There is no way she is qualified to represent her constituency or this country, you could slap a yellow rosette on a donkey and the 45 would vote for it.. Embarrassing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Do you seriously think that each member is a potential candidate???? That's like saying every Hearts season ticket holder is a potential 1st team player!! Fud.I'd wager that 99% of the season ticket holders at Tynecastle would have played for Hearts had they been good enough. Please bin the personal abuse though - this isn't the comment section of Wings Over Scotland. Given the time of your post I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were a few ciders deep and refrain from reporting you this time. Edited May 12, 2015 by TheMaganator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 As for Mhari Black , if she is smart she will watch and learn for a while , think it will be difficult for a while as she will be followed closely by the media given her age . She will sink or swim just like any other MP . I see Cameron is thinking of having the Euro vote next year to avoid a clash with German and French elections being the given reason . On the EU vote - good. Cameron will also be getting pushed by his pro-EU chancellor and his pro-immigration business secretary not to let this drag on too long as it'll harm the UK economy with investors seeking an answer to are we in or out. A similar set of circumstances did occur during the Scottish referendum - a lot of contracts to buy property were suspensive on the outcome of the result. Ie no money till the outcome. The pro-EU Tory leadership won't be seeking an exit. Will the SNP share a platform with Tories in defending our EU membership is also going to be an interesting question. Will they join the pro-EU cross party group? Will they stand on a stage together? Imagine... Mundell and Black together on a stage backing EU membership... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 On the EU vote - good. Cameron will also be getting pushed by his pro-EU chancellor and his pro-immigration business secretary not to let this drag on too long as it'll harm the UK economy with investors seeking an answer to are we in or out. A similar set of circumstances did occur during the Scottish referendum - a lot of contracts to buy property were suspensive on the outcome of the result. Ie no money till the outcome. The pro-EU Tory leadership won't be seeking an exit. Will the SNP share a platform with Tories in defending our EU membership is also going to be an interesting question. Will they join the pro-EU cross party group? Will they stand on a stage together? Imagine... Mundell and Black together on a stage backing EU membership... That would be glorious to see. Sadly given their pathetic and utterly tragic position on not sharing a platform with the Tories on a matter of common ground they'll probably boycott any cross party group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 This is who the good people of East Lothian have elected to represent them. Talking about our country's economy imploding - and referring to Westminster as the enemy. He also raises national pride which is nice. #the56 He got my vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Mhairi Black - just had the grave misfortune to listen to her on TV.. Potentially the biggest embarrassment in the history of this country.Why? Because she has a thick west coast Scottish accent? Would it be better for you if she had a "marble in the mouth" accent? Mealie moothed??? Pretent posh? Being embarrassed by hearing the Scots tongue is quite embarrassing right enough. This is where the lassie is fi. Scotland. Do you only think that southern accents or watered down Scots comes across as intelligent? Scots need to stop being so offended by Scots accents. If she is as thick as folk on here make her out to be then she will be found out soon enough but if she goes to Westminster, represents her constituents well & helps to shake up an archaic political system then who cares how her accent is??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 He got my vote Wot pans Jambo says^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Wot pans Jambo says^ You two are quite the pair. Rather than use his statement to talk about how he'd fix the UK's economy he revels in his assumption that it'll implode. Even if we were independent the rUK would still be our biggest trading partner. Just confirms that you guys genuinely don't give a shit about what happens to Scotland so long as we're independent. He's called WM the enemy FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Drago Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 What do you think will happen at the Scottish Parliament elections, following the Westminster result. Having a single party state would be more worrying at home, (from a balanced democratic perspective) but less so in Westminster. My view is the SNP want to be Catalonia: a credible threat to withdraw providing enough leverage that makes staying worthwhile. So loading Westminster with a single party state enables a Catalonia-esque outcome to evolve. However, if the Scottish Parliament (which has a form of PR) was to be similarly dominated by a single party, wouldn't this be net-negative. Do you think Scottish voters will vote differently come the Scottish elections, and might the result be even more extreme on the next call? Enquiring minds in Nashville need to know. Deodato I already know some people who voted SNP on. This election but are planning to vote green in the Scottish one. Will be interesting to see how many do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Kerevan happy to take the enemy's money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 You two are quite the pair. Rather than use his statement to talk about how he'd fix the UK's economy he revels in his assumption that it'll implode. Even if we were independent the rUK would still be our biggest trading partner. Just confirms that you guys genuinely don't give a shit about what happens to Scotland so long as we're independent. He's called WM the enemy FFS Not the first time I have seen that attitude from the Nats - the fact is that they need the economy to implode so they WANT more food banks, they WANT more unemployment and poverty and they WANT more suffering across the UK, especially in Scotland. This has been the perfect result for the SNP. They get the Big Bad Tory Government to blame for everything while they get 56 MP's to create havoc at Westminster, without having the responsibility to make the decisions. It's disgusting politics and reminiscent of the more extreme governments from history who have seized upon the suffering of the people to promise a Utopian future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Why? Because she has a thick west coast Scottish accent? Would it be better for you if she had a "marble in the mouth" accent? Mealie moothed??? Pretent posh? Being embarrassed by hearing the Scots tongue is quite embarrassing right enough. This is where the lassie is fi. Scotland. Do you only think that southern accents or watered down Scots comes across as intelligent? Scots need to stop being so offended by Scots accents. If she is as thick as folk on here make her out to be then she will be found out soon enough but if she goes to Westminster, represents her constituents well & helps to shake up an archaic political system then who cares how her accent is??? Propensity for Smirnov Ice inclination to "stick the head" on people with other political view points Thinks the rest of us are gullible + the accent I'd love to have her and Eric Joyce in the bar at the same time (in no way do I condone violence against women, this comment not serious) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invernessjt Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I'd wager that 99% of the season ticket holders at Tynecastle would have played for Hearts had they been good enough. Please bin the personal abuse though - this isn't the comment section of Wings Over Scotland. Given the time of your post I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were a few ciders deep and refrain from reporting you this time. You are correct. I was pished, out of order and I apologise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 What's all this about the Tories saying the BBC are biased against them? Shurely shome mishtake[emoji1] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 What's all this about the Tories saying the BBC are biased against them? Shurely shome mishtake[emoji1] Here's where the Nats and the Tories find common cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 You two are quite the pair. Rather than use his statement to talk about how he'd fix the UK's economy he revels in his assumption that it'll implode. Even if we were independent the rUK would still be our biggest trading partner. Just confirms that you guys genuinely don't give a shit about what happens to Scotland so long as we're independent. He's called WM the enemy FFS Says mag who's party have been stoking the English nationalist flames. Easily forgotten the below the belt comments from boris and a few others I can't be ****ed looking up. The time for grievance politics is finished the people have spoken (much to your dislike mag) it's time for politicians of all parties to get to work. Well other than jim for Scotland who's demise is in the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Says mag who's party have been stoking the English nationalist flames. Easily forgotten the below the belt comments from boris and a few others I can't be messed looking up. The time for grievance politics is finished the people have spoken (much to your dislike mag) it's time for politicians of all parties to get to work. Well other than jim for Scotland who's demise is in the post. I assume you are referring to the faux-bumbling London Mayor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I assume you are referring to the faux-bumbling London Mayor? If the shoe fits. Only kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Says mag who's party have been stoking the English nationalist flames. Easily forgotten the below the belt comments from boris and a few others I can't be messed looking up. The time for grievance politics is finished the people have spoken (much to your dislike mag) it's time for politicians of all parties to get to work. Well other than jim for Scotland who's demise is in the post. I think the time for grievance politics has only just begun. It will be interesting to see how the SNP play their role in Westminster - they wil have much to gain by showing Westminster "doesn't work". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I assume you are referring to the faux-bumbling London Mayor? Absolutely sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Here's where the Nats and the Tories find common cause. Labour have accused it of being biased to the Tories in the past. I'm sure they'll be pleased to see it brought down a peg or two. What a cosy cross-party group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 People who think the BBC need taken down a peg or two should be careful what they wish for. It has its faults and it is (bizarrely) both liberal and conservative at the same time - but it is still something we should be proud of and that we should protect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think the time for grievance politics has only just begun. It will be interesting to see how the SNP play their role in Westminster - they wil have much to gain by showing Westminster "doesn't work". Ironically, those who voted Tory in England for fear of the SNP having "power" are exercising grievance politics themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Not the first time I have seen that attitude from the Nats - the fact is that they need the economy to implode so they WANT more food banks, they WANT more unemployment and poverty and they WANT more suffering across the UK, especially in Scotland. This has been the perfect result for the SNP. They get the Big Bad Tory Government to blame for everything while they get 56 MP's to create havoc at Westminster, without having the responsibility to make the decisions. It's disgusting politics and reminiscent of the more extreme governments from history who have seized upon the suffering of the people to promise a Utopian future. Common mistake from the Brit Nats sheep who follow conservationism regardless of whether they shit on the most vulnerable within our society is to assume that if someone voted SNP they MUST be a Nationalist. Not me, I'm more of a socialist. The reason the SNP are wiping the floor with the tories et-al is Scotland is because there is NO alternative and politics needs to take into account the people they represent and not the richest 2% or the multi-national businesses who pay huge amounts of money to the government and lobby continually to dictate policy which only benefits them and not society. I voted SNP and will probably continue to do so until a viable alternative comes along. Be that Labour or whomever. We need positive change. Politics should not be about making people rich but more about giving everyone a fair chance and with a bit of humanity/humility thrown in. You remember "that woman" at the Kirkcaldy by-election a year or so ago who was asked by the reporter why she voted Labour and she said something like "Ma Da was doon the pit and voted Labour his entire life so thats why I voted Labour" (or something similar). What's the difference between her and folk on here who blindly vote Conservative every time? Its not like following your favourite football team you know (although for some, it's exactly like that)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Anyway, it's bizarre that people think John Whittingdale is a threat to the BBC. He's not a fan of the licence fee, not of the BBC in and of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Common mistake from the Brit Nats sheep who follow conservationism regardless of whether they shit on the most vulnerable within our society is to assume that if someone voted SNP they MUST be a Nationalist. Not me, I'm more of a socialist. The reason the SNP are wiping the floor with the tories et-al is Scotland is because there is NO alternative and politics needs to take into account the people they represent and not the richest 2% or the multi-national businesses who pay huge amounts of money to the government and lobby continually to dictate policy which only benefits them and not society. I voted SNP and will probably continue to do so until a viable alternative comes along. Be that Labour or whomever. We need positive change. Politics should not be about making people rich but more about giving everyone a fair chance and with a bit of humanity/humility thrown in. You remember "that woman" at the Kirkcaldy by-election a year or so ago who was asked by the reporter why she voted Labour and she said something like "Ma Da was doon the pit and voted Labour his entire life so thats why I voted Labour" (or something similar). What's the difference between her and folk on here who blindly vote Conservative every time? Its not like following your favourite football team you know (although for some, it's exactly like that)! Not disputing your argument but my point was that i've seen a few SNP figures and supporters almost willing the country to suffer as it gives them the perfect argument to further their cause, whether it is more Holyrood powers or Independence (which is, after all, the SNP's End Game). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Robertson now saying the SNP dont want FFA after all... This is interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Why? Because she has a thick west coast Scottish accent? Would it be better for you if she had a "marble in the mouth" accent? Mealie moothed??? Pretent posh? Being embarrassed by hearing the Scots tongue is quite embarrassing right enough. This is where the lassie is fi. Scotland. Do you only think that southern accents or watered down Scots comes across as intelligent? Scots need to stop being so offended by Scots accents. If she is as thick as folk on here make her out to be then she will be found out soon enough but if she goes to Westminster, represents her constituents well & helps to shake up an archaic political system then who cares how her accent is??? Her accent is only one problem. In any line of profession there is a minimum standard of qualification - I would suggest being an MP should come towards the higher end of the qualification or experience spectrum. "I will campaign against draconian austerity and benefit cuts" give me strength. A joke voted for by morons.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Not disputing your argument but my point was that i've seen a few SNP figures and supporters almost willing the country to suffer as it gives them the perfect argument to further their cause, whether it is more Holyrood powers or Independence (which is, after all, the SNP's End Game). If they sit back and allow Scotland to suffer IF they have the opportunity to to assist then they will be finished as a party in Scotland. Cant understand why anyone would want the country to get worse than it is to score political points. For the record, I would vote conservative if they had the policies that I identified with but that wont ever happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 SNP don't want FFA/FFR? What do they want? Do they even know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Robertson now saying the SNP dont want FFA after all... This is interesting Wonder why - could the ?7bn funding shortfall be a reason.. Whilst at the same time they bleat about austerity and benefit cuts and promote policy which will chase big business and big tax contributors out of Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Her accent is only one problem. In any line of profession there is a minimum standard of qualification - I would suggest being an MP should come towards the higher end of the qualification or experience spectrum. "I will campaign against draconian austerity and benefit cuts" give me strength. A joke voted for by morons.. Lets wait and see what she can do. What party/candidate SHOULD the "morons" have voted in that constituency in your opinion? An experienced, well educated, corrupt areshole is still an areshole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Its also a broken promise as in their manifesto they said they would "seek agreement that the Scottish Parliament should move to full fiscal responsibility". Robertson came up with some guff about nit even asking for it because the SNP are not the UK government, which doesn't even make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 SNP already working with backbench tories behind the scenes to try and block Mays surveillance legislation according to newspapers today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Lets wait and see what she can do. What party/candidate SHOULD the "morons" have voted in that constituency in your opinion? An experienced, well educated, corrupt areshole is still an areshole. The correct answer is conservative - but scotland only ever votes for the party who promise most in the way of free state handouts so that will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Ironically, those who voted Tory in England for fear of the SNP having "power" are exercising grievance politics themselves. That was more "fear" than grievance. Clegg got it right - the English voted out of fear, and the Scots out of grievance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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