The 2015 General Election Megathread

[luckydug]

      

 

 

Interesting.  Could Orkney & Shetland then have a referendum to stay with rUK?     Could the cities like Aberdeen and Edinburgh who voted No, have their own referendums to remain rUK?       Can't we let the four toilet areas that voted Yes not just bugger off to their Independence heaven? 

 

The latest opinion poll says that SNP may win 55 seats. which toilet area do you live in ?

Edited April 28, 2015 by luckydug

[doctor jambo]

I know I 'm deliberately provoking but the point I made, not very well, is that when looked at as a national average, the vote was 55/45.  Thats clear.  However, when looked at regionally, only four areas said Yes, the rest said No. 

 

So lets say, for example, that another referendum is held, and its 51/49 Yes, but the 51% only comes from the same four or areas or a few more. 

 

Would it be right that the whole of Scotland become independent based on a polarised small area of the Country?    Cue partition discussions.    It worked for Ireland (allegedly).

The SNP are quite clear - there is NO independence referendum in their GE manifesto.

This is to encourage people ( no voters) to vote for them in THIS election.

Which is fair enough.

It may give rUK and even the SNP frothers the IMPRESSION they have a majority backing for their plans, but it doesn't

THe other parties are happy to stoke the SNP fire ( stupidly IMHO) to garner votes in England.

Until we get a federal UK with , say 20 MP's from each of the 4 nations to give balance to each country NOT based on population English voters hold sway, and even 100% Scots SNP vote will be a mere whisper in LOndon

[TheMaganator]

The 2015 General Election Megathread

 

Just thought I would post the thread title to remind some folk that its not the "SNP to hold another Independence referendum" thread

 

ITS NOT IN THEIR MANIFESTO THIS TIME ROUND SO WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING IT???????

BECAUSE THE ELECTION CAN NOT BE VIEWED IN A VACUUM. IF THE SNP INTEND TO DO X IN WESTMINSTER TO ALLOW THEM TO DO Y NEXT YEAR THEN IT IS VALID FOR DISCUSSION!!!>!.1>?

 

IMO

[deesidejambo]

For me I would like it to be a two part referendum, one where we go to negotiate the terms of separation and a second to ratify the deal.

 

And I say that as a lifelong supporter of Scottish Independence, what both sides need to realise at that whatever is left after any vote has to work, so if we separate we need to win not just the vote but also bring the Unionists with us.

 

Likewise Unionists can't just say we won, shut up - they need to convince the Yes voters of the merits of the Union, but that will take time.

The issue would potentially be easier to handle if there was a geographical split.  For example, (just an example) if the Highlands were strong Yes and the Borders etc Strong No, then the discussion would perhaps swing towards giving everyone what they want, i.e. a partition.    It worked (i think) for Ireland, although some may dispute that solution.

 

As I live in Sheepland, I would reluctantly accept a decision if it fell along such geographical lines, but I cant accept that a few small areas of the country can dictate the future of the rest.

[TheMaganator]

The SNP have said that they accept the result of the Referendum and are going to Westminster to try and unite with other progressive Parties to improve things for people all across the United Kingdom.

 

How that lines up with your constant bashing on about Independence and Referendum I have no idea.

Very well - ?10 donation to the HYDF says a referendum will be in the 2016 manifesto. 

[deesidejambo]

      

 

 

 

The latest opinion poll says that SNP may win 55 seats. which toilet area do you live in ?

Aberdeen south.   The sitting (no joke intended) MP is Anne Begg, who I will be heartbroken if she loses her seat, as I have extreme respect for her as a local and national politician.    I am p****d-off that Labour have not fought back enough in Scotland, but I predict some Labour big guns will be heading up here in the last days of campaigning.

 

But there will be a fair amount of tactical voting.   My missus is a Tory but will be voting Labour to keep the Nats out.    Expect a lot of tactical voting also in Gordon as the word is Salmond is not going to have the predicted landslide - it was 70/30 No in the referendum so expect No-voters to tactically switch to LD.

[Nookie Bear]

Ad hom noted.  You seem to suggest I have a mental illness?     Nice.

 

Er no, you were out of order. End of.

[jambo1185]

Did Angus Robertson just suggest that the UK faces a "threat from the north" on Daily Politics? Are the Vikings and Eskimos coming for us again?

 

And now the Green girl is justifying legalizing Al Qaeda. Oh wait, she's just said she personally doesn't agree with the policy.

 

This election is exhausting.

Edited April 28, 2015 by jambo1185

[deesidejambo]

But some people did vote Yes in those areas and if the result is to be reversed then you would see the geographical result change also. It is unlikely to be Yes win with only 4 regions supporting it, the swing would have to happen across the country.

I agree that if the swing is widespread then you would get more geographical spread also.  However given areas like Borders, Fife, Aberdeen, and Edinburgh were so strongly No, it is unlikely - you will still get polarisation of the results.    Part of me wishes that there had been a strong geographical split, then a partition could be a solution.  But thats not the case so the issue remains.

[deesidejambo]

Er no, you were out of order. End of.

Yeah OK, maybe toilet areas was a bit naughty, sorry about that.  Got a discussion about vote polarisation going though.

[2NaFish]

I agree that if the swing is widespread then you would get more geographical spread also.  However given areas like Borders, Fife, Aberdeen, and Edinburgh were so strongly No, it is unlikely - you will still get polarisation of the results.    Part of me wishes that there had been a strong geographical split, then a partition could be a solution.  But thats not the case so the issue remains.

 

Maybe they would go for "best of five?".  Seriously, we need another referendum.  The issue is not going away, and as can be seen in this thread, is causing division and is not good for the Country.  And the Nats wil get pasted again anyway.

 

Constitutional discussion is causing division and isn't good for the country, so we should literally divide the country.

[deesidejambo]

Constitutional discussion is causing division and isn't good for the country, so we should literally divide the country.

No I said if the vote was clearly geographically split, then a partition is a potential solution.    However I have also said that the geographical split is not there so a partition is not viable, but at the same time geographically, even in the case of a 51/49 Yes result next time, there will remain areas like Fife/Aberdeen/Embra/Borders, which will almost certainly remain strong No.  how would you handle them?

[deesidejambo]

'Mystic Mag'

 

I voted Yes, but I agree, there shouldn't be another referendum for a while. It's settled for the time being.

 

If Scotland had voted Yes, and the unionists were calling for another referendum almost immediately, I'd be extremely dismissive.

 

Happy to sit this out and wait for the SNP to develop a proposition that addresses the main concerns.

If Scotland has voted Yes, there would currently be extremely problematic negotiations re the currency Union, with Scotland in a difficult bargaining position due to the halving of the oil price.   Basically Scotland would be screwed.   You should thank the No-voters for Saving Scotland!!

[Gorgiewave]

Everybody should always get their own way or life is unbearable. Pre-unification Germany is the aim.

[jambo1185]

Everybody should always get their own way or life is unbearable. Pre-unification Germany is the aim.

 

Tommy Sheridan's mantra - "Power to the people as long as the people agree with me"

[dobmisterdobster]

Everybody should always get their own way or life is unbearable. Pre-unification Germany is the aim.

Nationalism brought Germany back together.

[IMac]

Nationalism brought Germany back together.

Ya german nationalism is really something you want to use to back your position....

Edited April 28, 2015 by IMac

[dobmisterdobster]

Ya german nationalism is really something you want to use to back your position....

Civic nationalism not ethnic.

Hence the differences between the SNP and BNP.

[luckydug]

The SNP are quite clear - there is NO independence referendum in their GE manifesto.

This is to encourage people ( no voters) to vote for them in THIS election.

Which is fair enough.

It may give rUK and even the SNP frothers the IMPRESSION they have a majority backing for their plans, but it doesn't

THe other parties are happy to stoke the SNP fire ( stupidly IMHO) to garner votes in England.

Until we get a federal UK with , say 20 MP's from each of the 4 nations to give balance to each country NOT based on population English voters hold sway, and even 100% Scots SNP vote will be a mere whisper in LOndon

 I agree with most of this. Unsure about Federal UK but could be persuaded.

If there is a referendum on the Euro membership ALL the countries in the UK should be in agreement.Otherwise we stay in Euro.

[jambo1185]

 I agree with most of this. Unsure about Federal UK but could be persuaded.

If there is a referendum on the Euro membership ALL the countries in the UK should be in agreement.Otherwise we stay in Euro.

 

All current polls show a pretty good lead for an 'In' vote, 10 points or so, even with UKIP 'riding high'. I don't, currently, see any realistic threat of Scotland being dragged out of the EU against a majority of those Scots who vote in that referendum's wishes (as opposed to by it's own wishes by becoming independent ;-) I jest of course!).

[Boris]

Why should the UK decide? Did they get to decide on scotland becoming independent?

 

So you think as long as one country wants it, the other country has to unify with them?  Because that's what you are saying.  

 

Of course rUK has no say in whether one of the home nations wishes to independent, that's the whole point of self-determination!  Or did you think Gorbachev was correct to send the tanks into Lithuania in 1990?

 

I know I 'm deliberately provoking but the point I made, not very well, is that when looked at as a national average, the vote was 55/45.  Thats clear.  However, when looked at regionally, only four areas said Yes, the rest said No. 

 

So lets say, for example, that another referendum is held, and its 51/49 Yes, but the 51% only comes from the same four or areas or a few more. 

 

Would it be right that the whole of Scotland become independent based on a polarised small area of the Country?    Cue partition discussions.    It worked for Ireland (allegedly).

 

As I said earlier, I would be uncomfortable at gaining independence on such a small majority and that something in the region of 60%+ would be best.

 

But regards regionalism - wait and see if we get an EU in out and lets just say that Scotland, N Ireland & Wales all voted to stay in, but the more populous England voted for exit.  Three of the four home countries want in, one wants out.  That's hardly fair is it?

 

Unless, of course, there are no home nations and we are all Brits!

[The Mighty Thor]

BECAUSE THE ELECTION CAN NOT BE VIEWED IN A VACUUM. IF THE SNP INTEND TO DO X IN WESTMINSTER TO ALLOW THEM TO DO Y NEXT YEAR THEN IT IS VALID FOR DISCUSSION!!!>!.1>?

 

IMO

Alternatively if you are unable to bang on about the referendum or grudge and grievance you've nothing to say.

Not a peep on policy or record in government since 2010.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Everybody should always get their own way or life is unbearable. Pre-unification Germany is the aim.

You'll find that London politicians who indebted this country getting their own way is the reason for this division....but how would you know you don't even live here??

[luckydug]

Aberdeen south.   The sitting (no joke intended) MP is Anne Begg, who I will be heartbroken if she loses her seat, as I have extreme respect for her as a local and national politician.    I am p****d-off that Labour have not fought back enough in Scotland, but I predict some Labour big guns will be heading up here in the last days of campaigning.

 

But there will be a fair amount of tactical voting.   My missus is a Tory but will be voting Labour to keep the Nats out.    Expect a lot of tactical voting also in Gordon as the word is Salmond is not going to have the predicted landslide - it was 70/30 No in the referendum so expect No-voters to tactically switch to LD.

 

I thought you were a Tory. That just shows little difference their is between Labour and Tory. Nobody can tell them apart. Also how little discussion their has been from some people about this WESTMINSTER ELECTION its been like a re run of the referendum from some quarters.

Never thought I would see the day when LABOUR supporters would call working class areas toilet areas and one of Scotland's cities SCUMDEE. 

The number of times i have read you banging on about social security scroungers its no wonder i thought you were a Tory or even UKIP.

[XB52]

The 2015 General Election Megathread

 

Just thought I would post the thread title to remind some folk that its not the "SNP to hold another Independence referendum" thread

 

ITS NOT IN THEIR MANIFESTO THIS TIME ROUND SO WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING IT???????

It seems to be the only topic the unionists can talk about. Labour/Tory/LibDems/UKIP go on and on and on about it, same as the unionists on here. Meanwhile the SNP go on about this election NOT being about Independence but about getting a better deal for Scotland and the disadvantaged in the rest of the UK  

[jambo1185]

I thought you were a Tory. That just shows little difference their is between Labour and Tory. Nobody can tell them apart. Also how little discussion their has been from some people about this WESTMINSTER ELECTION its been like a re run of the referendum from some quarters.

Never thought I would see the day when LABOUR supporters would call working class areas toilet areas and one of Scotland's cities SCUMDEE. 

The number of times i have read you banging on about social security scroungers its no wonder i thought you were a Tory or even UKIP.

 

What differences are there between Labour and SNP policy, beyond independence and a different style of narrative? There's a reason why Sturgeon will only work with one and not the other, and it's not because Labour and Tory are two sides of the same coin.

[Gorgiewave]

You'll find that London politicians who indebted this country getting their own way is the reason for this division....but how would you know you don't even live here??

 

News travels fast, for example on the interweb. But thanks for your wee dose of cuddly, inclusive civic nationalism.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gorgiewave

[XB52]

BECAUSE THE ELECTION CAN NOT BE VIEWED IN A VACUUM. IF THE SNP INTEND TO DO X IN WESTMINSTER TO ALLOW THEM TO DO Y NEXT YEAR THEN IT IS VALID FOR DISCUSSION!!!>!.1>?

 

IMO

whatever the SNP do in Westminster does not allow them to do anything in Holyrood next year.. Whatever they want to do after the Scottish election will be in their manifesto for the Scottish elections. I just don't get why the unionists keep banging on about the referendum, it is hard to believe that you won it

[Pans Jambo]

Very well - ?10 donation to the HYDF says a referendum will be in the 2016 manifesto.

This is 2015 though Maggie. Obsessed much?

[Thunderstruck]

You'll find that London politicians who indebted this country getting their own way is the reason for this division....but how would you know you don't even live here??

I think you'll find that the country's indebtedness was in support of ever-increasing public spending which, on a per capita basis, was higher in Scotland than any other part of the country.

[Cade]

I think you'll find that the country's indebtedness was in support of ever-increasing public spending which, on a per capita basis, was higher in Scotland than any other part of the country.

Scotland receives a higher amount per capita than the UK AVERAGE. 

Part of the reason for this is the extreme distances between communities in the Highlands and Islands that simply require more to be spent in order for services to reach the people who live there (air ambulances, air post, freight ferries, boats to school etc etc etc).

 

But having said that, many other regions receive more than the UK average:

 

Northern Ireland 123%

Scotland 115%

Wales 111%

London 110%

North East 107%

North West 104%

[Pans Jambo]

Scotland receives a higher amount per capita than the UK AVERAGE.

Part of the reason for this is the extreme distances between communities in the Highlands and Islands that simply require more to be spent in order for services to reach the people who live there (air ambulances, air post, freight ferries, boats to school etc etc etc).

 

But having said that, many other regions receive more than the UK average:

 

Northern Ireland 123%

Scotland 115%

Wales 111%

London 110%

North East 107%

North West 104%

Plus I dont think London, Norther Ireland or Wales has been sending tens of billions in oil tax money to the treasury fir the last 40 years. Pay more in, get more out.

[aussieh]

Plus I dont think London, Norther Ireland or Wales has been sending tens of billions in oil tax money to the treasury fir the last 40 years. Pay more in, get more out.

To be fair London is now a money machine.

[TheMaganator]

whatever the SNP do in Westminster does not allow them to do anything in Holyrood next year.. Whatever they want to do after the Scottish election will be in their manifesto for the Scottish elections. I just don't get why the unionists keep banging on about the referendum, it is hard to believe that you won it

I'm sure I'm being trolled here but I'll respond anyway.

 

If you look at my posts on this I've maintained that they'll conduct themselves in such a way and bam up their support with grievance to give them the 'excuse' they need to get it on their 2016 manifesto. The two are linked IMO.

 

Cue huners of 'shut up about it MAGANATOR' posts

[deesidejambo]

I thought you were a Tory. That just shows little difference their is between Labour and Tory. Nobody can tell them apart. Also how little discussion their has been from some people about this WESTMINSTER ELECTION its been like a re run of the referendum from some quarters.

Never thought I would see the day when LABOUR supporters would call working class areas toilet areas and one of Scotland's cities SCUMDEE. 

The number of times i have read you banging on about social security scroungers its no wonder i thought you were a Tory or even UKIP.

I actually usually vote Green, and have done that or otherwise spoiled my ballot paper all my life.  I am not affiliated to any particular party but I happen to think Ann Begg is a good MP and worthy of representing me, and Scotland for that matter, so I'll vote for her this time, even though I work a zero-hours Contract, that Labour don't seem to like.

 

As for scroungers yes I absolutely hate them, and that includes my own son who has scrounged Social since leaving school, now at least 5 years.  I know its unpalatable but I don't want the countries future determined by Socio DEs, who tend to vote for whoever offers them the most money as opposed to thinking nationally.  My lad voted Yes in the referendum because he wants bedroom tax abolished so he and his mates can cash-in.  That is the way it is and I am within my rights to detest them.     Have you ever wondered why Dundee actually voted Yes?  You think it was because they have some sort of nationalistic streak that nobody else has?  No. Its because Dundee contains a high proportion of Socio DEs that vote either for personal gain, or to "kick the Toffs".  Neither are legitimate mandates.

[aussieh]

I actually usually vote Green, and have done that or otherwise spoiled my ballot paper all my life. I am not affiliated to any particular party but I happen to think Ann Begg is a good MP and worthy of representing me, and Scotland for that matter, so I'll vote for her this time, even though I work a zero-hours Contract, that Labour don't seem to like.

 

As for scroungers yes I absolutely hate them, and that includes my own son who has scrounged Social since leaving school, now at least 5 years. I know its unpalatable but I don't want the countries future determined by Socio Es, who tend to vote for whoever offers them the most money as opposed to thinking nationally. My lad voted Yes in the referendum because he wants bedroom tax abolished so he and his mates can cash-in. That is the way it is and I am within my rights to detest them. Have you ever wondered why Dundee actually voted Yes? You think it was because they have some sort of nationalistic streak that nobody else has? No. Its because Dundee contains a high proportion of Socio DEs that vote either for personal gain, or to "kick the Toffs". Neither are legitimate mandates.

Probably does it, to get it right up you.

Whats your socio B double A.

Edited April 28, 2015 by aussieh

[luckydug]

I actually usually vote Green, and have done that or otherwise spoiled my ballot paper all my life.  I am not affiliated to any particular party but I happen to think Ann Begg is a good MP and worthy of representing me, and Scotland for that matter, so I'll vote for her this time, even though I work a zero-hours Contract, that Labour don't seem to like.

 

As for scroungers yes I absolutely hate them, and that includes my own son who has scrounged Social since leaving school, now at least 5 years.  I know its unpalatable but I don't want the countries future determined by Socio DEs, who tend to vote for whoever offers them the most money as opposed to thinking nationally.  My lad voted Yes in the referendum because he wants bedroom tax abolished so he and his mates can cash-in.  That is the way it is and I am within my rights to detest them.     Have you ever wondered why Dundee actually voted Yes?  You think it was because they have some sort of nationalistic streak that nobody else has?  No. Its because Dundee contains a high proportion of Socio DEs that vote either for personal gain, or to "kick the Toffs".  Neither are legitimate mandates.

 

Your relationship with your son is your business.

Its unfair to vilify large sections of the population because your son who you describe as a social security scrounger voted Yes.

Lots of perfectly respectable people voted Yes for very valid reasons. You have had digs at people who live in housing schemes for no other reason that you assume they must have voted Yes and therefore must be scroungers and work shy. i live in a housing scheme and have been greatly offended by some of your remarks. I still hold the view that one should not posts views on the internet that you wouldn't say to the same person in real life.   

[JamboX2]

And if the Scottish electorate do not want another referendum then they will give the SNP short shrift. As you are so confident of this, surely this must actually be a good thing as it will defeat the SNP?

 

Or do you sense a shifting of opinion and in fact the momentum toward independence is growing?

I reject all three positions here Boris.

 

1. There's not a growing support for independence. Like the BQ in Canada, the SNP are being backed by both pro and anti independence voters. Increased support for the SNP and them winning 40 plus seats at this election can even occur without a majority of voters backing them.

 

2. Independence won't kill the SNP. The won't decamp to other parties. They'll still have the hunger to run Scotland and be the natural party of government here. And as they straddle the centre of Scottish politics with a neoliberal pro-business ideology mixed with social democratic social policies (New Labour anyone?) they could easily do that.

 

3. Why cant this vote deliver another referendum? Westminster controls the powers on the UK constitutional set up, including the position of Scotland. Holyrood has no power to hold another legal referendum. If anything this is the election to do this with.

 

On the last point, they've been bounced as a party here and are riding a crest of support from yes and no voters alike. They can't upset one or the other so have kicked to touch for now.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

News travels fast, for example on the interweb. But thanks for your wee dose of cuddly, inclusive civic nationalism.

If I read about Spanish politics doesn't mean id feel like I belong...thing is like most on JKB I have a big box of flying ****s that shall not be given for all things Spanish political.

[JamboX2]

Why do I need to tell that to a Greek? Are you comparing our economy with theirs? Why not do a real Alistair Darling and bring Somalia or some tinpot South American country into it while your at it?

Tbh, when that was used it was on being naieve enough to use a currency which you have no power over. Currency union is and will be the Achilles heel of the independence campaign then, now and tomorrow.

[Cade]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/28/nigel-farage-english-victims-racism-uk-scotland

 

[Boab]

Looks like a lively afternoon on here today.

Some genuine laugh out loud moments as well.

Keep it up, people.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/28/nigel-farage-english-victims-racism-uk-scotland

 

The cybernats will be seething at that.

 

Good ol' Nige. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Cade]

The cybernats will be seething at that.

 

Good ol' Nige. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

you're either trolling or seriously deluded and a danger to yourself

[Boab]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/28/nigel-farage-english-victims-racism-uk-scotland

 

I see he made this claim today on a visit to Hartlepool....they should have all dressed up as Bob Marley.

[luckydug]

I see he made this claim today on a visit to Hartlepool....they should have all dressed up as Bob Marley.

 

Somebody should ask Nigel about this http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/load-up-jocks-drop-edinburgh-5591890

[aussieh]

Construction industry bombed again, and manufacturing.

Recovery aye good yin.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

The GDP slowdown is probably purely down to oil prices going southward. 

[2NaFish]

The GDP slowdown is probably purely down to oil prices going southward. 

 

Phew. I thought it was down to that one poll that predicted a Yes vote like last time.

[aussieh]

The GDP slowdown is probably purely down to oil prices going southward.

 

So its oor fault.