Hearts Fans Stay Steadfast - Do Not Renew

[jambovambo]

I thenk yow.

[Cliffundo]

You have very shory memorys, we would have gone bust without mad vlad.

So is this is whats going to happen everytime we have a crap season.

 

I will allway supports hearts.

 

Go home you glory hunter.

 

It's no about a bad season... where you been the last three years?

 

you telling me you aint seen or heard nothing that sticks in your throat the last few years? jeez...some folk are just staunch vladites!

[leginten]

People that support Vlad have become so entrenched that the defences have start to lose grip on reality

 

People arguing that a manager is not that important

People arguing that the level of owner interference at Hearts is normal

People arguing that they have seen very poor Hearts teams before

 

 

 

Your three examples sum up what I see as a recent shift in the line taken by those who stick up for each and every indignity inflicted on the Hearts support by the owner.

 

It used to be: you don't have any proof/show me the facts/things are actually OK/the pyramid and the committee are the way forward/we have no debt/you just don't understand how Romanov's system works/player or employee x was a traitor.

 

Now that the wheels are very definitely off and the lies and incompetence have been exposed it's: things have always been this way/things are this way at other clubs too/fasten your seatbelts for a bumpy ride.

 

Scary.

[jambovambo]

Your three examples sum up what I see as a recent shift in the line taken by those who stick up for each and every indignity inflicted on the Hearts support by the owner.

 

It used to be: you don't have any proof/show me the facts/things are actually OK/the pyramid and the committee are the way forward/we have no debt/you just don't understand how Romanov's system works/player or employee x was a traitor.

 

Now that the wheels are very definitely off and the lies and incompetence have been exposed it's: things have always been this way/things are this way at other clubs too/fasten your seatbelts for a bumpy ride.

 

Scary.

Precisely.

 

One other thing you missed : when someone (like me, e.g.) says "time to take action", there's a blizzard of "what, you and two mates? / didn't work the last time / you'll only p'ss VR off / I only want to watch the Hearts / it won't make any difference".

 

But it is "time to take action", even if that is the "inaction" of not renewing your ST.

[Jammy T]

Your three examples sum up what I see as a recent shift in the line taken by those who stick up for each and every indignity inflicted on the Hearts support by the owner.

 

It used to be: you don't have any proof/show me the facts/things are actually OK/the pyramid and the committee are the way forward/we have no debt/you just don't understand how Romanov's system works/player or employee x was a traitor.

 

Now that the wheels are very definitely off and the lies and incompetence have been exposed it's: things have always been this way/things are this way at other clubs too/fasten your seatbelts for a bumpy ride.

 

Scary.

 

Another one coming up is:

 

So we've had a bad season?

 

Where we you all last season? - we were pesh then too.

 

The bottom line is the football side of life at Hearts has been on the decline since Burley was emptied

 

And nothing has been, or is being done, to correct the slide

 

Thats 30 months and counting.

 

And there is still a healthy chunk of Hearts fans either defending the man behind the sham or simply shrugging their shoulders at this.

 

Astonishing

[jambovambo]

Another one coming up is:

 

So we've had a bad season?

 

Where we you all last season? - we were pesh then too.

 

The bottom line is the football side of life at Hearts has been on the decline since Burley was emptied

 

And nothing has been, or is being done, to correct the slide

 

Thats 30 months and counting.

 

And there is still a healthy chunk of Hearts fans either defending the man behind the sham or simply shrugging their shoulders at this.

 

Astonishing

 

As pointed out before, it feels more and more like Stockholm Syndrome ...

 

"Stockholm Syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors. "

[Sherlock]

....And there is still a healthy chunk of Hearts fans either defending the man behind the sham or simply shrugging their shoulders at this...

 

Those fans who are still defending VR are one thing....

 

It's the ones that are simply shrugging their shoulders that are most worrying.

[ando]

who are you ? the people on here that are promoting the non buying of season tickets

[buzzbomb]

mod delete You can spot them.

 

They like to tell people what they should buy, they like to promote themselves as "smarter" than everyone else, anyone who doesn't agree with them just doesn't get "it". They go around in a wee gang trying to convert people.

 

It's dead easy to become one. Just moan and bleat about everything, but offer no alternative.

 

 

 

 

 

who are you ? the people on here that are promoting the non buying of season tickets

[Jammy T]

They go around in a wee gang trying to convert people.

.

 

Its actually quite a big gang. Bigger than yours anyway

[Mon]

Oh ...simple as that is it?

 

ok Smart arse! how about this... bednaer fee Gordon fee ...so lets say we deduct ?12 mill for arguments sake, that leaves us with around ?26 mill .. the ground is worth probably more now when you consider he actually purchased additional land and also the projected planning permission would help to increase potential value.

 

now how much has vlad invested from his own pocket? nothing because hearts have had all the debt lumbered onto them... so if vlad sells up what could he realisticly achieve? quite a fair packet! as you said...he owns the bank!

 

 

 

He hasn't purchased any additional land as yet. He said he would if the planning permission passed.

[rudi]

Let me see now .....Vlad owns Hearts and bank. Hearts owes bank 38mill+. therefore Vlad is in debit 38mill +. But you say he is taking money out of the club??????

 

If the debt is Vlads and he owns the bank why are we paying ?1.5m a year interest?

[rudi]

Its actually quite a big gang. Bigger than yours anyway

 

Do ya wanna be in Vlads gang,Vlads gang,Vlads gang

do ya wanna be in Vlads gang,oh yehha.

He's the leader,he's the leader of gang bang man.

[Jambof3tornado]

If the debt is Vlads and he owns the bank why are we paying ?1.5m a year interest?

 

We are paying Vlads bank a hell of a lot less than we would be paying any other bank!!! Worth remembering that one methinks!!!

[rudi]

We are paying Vlads bank a hell of a lot less than we would be paying any other bank!!! Worth remembering that one methinks!!!

 

Still doesn't answer the question,why is he paying interest on his own money?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

To get back to my OP, I want to state that I started it knowing that it is impossible to stop people from renewing their season tickets. People will have their reasons for continually and loyally renewing and there is undoubtedly a solid core of probably 6000 people who regardless of the state of Heart of Midlothian Football Club will always renew. There is no contrary argument on earth that will stop this segment of the support from renewing.

 

But I believe that there are guys like me, also probably numbering about 6000, who are season ticket holders who are either seriously considering not renewing, will not renew, or are awaiting events. I do not believe these are glory hunters or any other of the insulting sobriquets attached to loyal fans who seriously doubt the wisdom of handing hard-earned money over to Vladimir Romanov. Because right now, lets face it, to all intents and purposes, and I can taste the ashes in my mouth in saying this, Romanov IS Hearts at the moment because he has infested the club all the way from the top to the actual playing field to the divisions of the supporters in the stands. No other single individual has played such a dictatorial role and had such a malevolent influence on ALL connected to Heart of Midlothian. Christ, even hatred of Chris Robinson was able to UNITE the fans, Romanov has got us divided. Well maybe not so divided anymore.

 

I believe in gut instinct and this time I believe the fans will in large numbers not renew. I believe Romanov will continue to lie to us. I believe that even if a "name" is brought in as manager and is wheeled out ala Graham Rix and states as Rix did, "I'm picking the team", I still think a significant number of fans will still wait and see before deciding on paying for the mythical symbol that is the "Season Ticket".

 

And to answer some on this thread including Buffalo Bill, I ain't no leader, or figurehead or egomaniac, just a solitary Jambo, with no other agenda other than wanting see the good name of Heart of Midlothian Football Club return.

[Therapist]

knowing that it is impossible to stop people from renewing their season tickets.

 

Thankfully - and for once - you're correct.

 

If you're going through all your attention seeking angst, why not just keep it to yourself instead of trying to encourage proper fans not to renew?

[djf]

It's amazing some of the self important idiots here bleating about how bad things are and the sum total of their efforts to enforce change? Refusal to renew their season tickets.

 

I wouldn't really have a problem with that.

 

It's when they criticise other Hearts fans and act like they are the only "sane" ones or the ones who are "fighting" for the club.

 

It's empty muck. You are doing nothing more than any on here who you condem so vehemently.

 

Everyone knows Vlad is a nutter who is damaging the club through his actions. Everyone knows things would be better with a manager in full control. These are not secrets. There is not some huge reason to post the same mundane crap over and over again.

 

Offer solutions. Offer actions. Otherwise you are just another empty voice on a few Hearts fan's screens.

[Acey]

I can taste the ashes in my mouth in saying this... divisions of the supporters in the stands...dictatorial role... malevolent influence on ALL...I believe...I believe...I believe...mythical symbol...good name of Heart of Midlothian Football Club

 

 

It's the bloody football, gents. A bit of perspective, please.

 

p.s. "I ain't no leader"? How wonderfully twee.

[Jammy T]

It's amazing some of the self important idiots here bleating about how bad things are and the sum total of their efforts to enforce change? Refusal to renew their season tickets.

 

I wouldn't really have a problem with that.

 

It's when they criticise other Hearts fans and act like they are the only "sane" ones or the ones who are "fighting" for the club.

 

It's empty muck. You are doing nothing more than any on here who you condem so vehemently.

 

Everyone knows Vlad is a nutter who is damaging the club through his actions. Everyone knows things would be better with a manager in full control. These are not secrets. There is not some huge reason to post the same mundane crap over and over again.

 

Offer solutions. Offer actions. Otherwise you are just another empty voice on a few Hearts fan's screens.

 

meetings with him havent worked

 

letters havent worked

 

media pressure even from hearts minded people havent worked

 

pleas from intelligent and passionate people within the club havent worked

 

there is no sane basis upon which the actions of vlad can be backed or applauded.

 

at the end of the day buddy his own fecking spin merchant, employed by him, has confirmed that Vlad doesnt listen to anyone and the only thing that might change things is money, or the lack of it through non-purchase of tickets / season tickets

 

I was there when he said that

 

Do you see?

 

His own PR man

[djf]

meetings with him havent worked

 

letters havent worked

 

media pressure even from hearts minded people havent worked

 

pleas from intelligent and passionate people within the club havent worked

 

there is no sane basis upon which the actions of vlad can be backed or applauded.

 

at the end of the day buddy his own fecking spin merchant, employed by him, has confirmed that Vlad doesnt listen to anyone and the only thing that might change things is money, or the lack of it through non-purchase of tickets / season tickets

 

I was there when he said that

 

Do you see?

 

His own PR man

 

 

A couple of thousand fans not renewing won't matter either.

 

Hope i'm wrong like

 

But I won't be

 

Vlad won't change unless he decides that is what he wants to do.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

A couple of thousand fans not renewing won't matter either.

 

Hope i'm wrong like

 

But I won't be

 

Vlad won't change unless he decides that is what he wants to do.

 

We may be in Division 1 by then and further in debt.

 

I don't have the answers but non-renewal is at least trying SOMETHING.

 

I do not want to change your mind, you are as obstinate in your view as I am in mine.

 

But this is just a forum on the 'Net. You know as well as I do that there will be many non renewals. Why don't you try and attempt an argument to try and change my mind instead of the usual vitriol? And tell me where I have actually said STAY AWAY FROM TYNECASTLE. Never.

[Jammy T]

A couple of thousand fans not renewing won't matter either.

 

Hope i'm wrong like

 

But I won't be

 

Vlad won't change unless he decides that is what he wants to do.

 

you think if nothing changes, and we dont get a manager with a spine, that there will be 11500 season ticket holders?

 

Seriously?

 

The ticket office are already scraping the barrel hounding people by phone - it is already being noticed

 

Now, if season ticket sales plummet and Vlad still does not change his ways we are seriously fecked - but at least we'll know

 

the sooner all hearts fans realise exactly where we stand with Vlad the better - no point in drawing this sorry affair out longer than needs be

[djf]

We may be in Division 1 by then and further in debt.

 

I don't have the answers but non-renewal is at least trying SOMETHING.

 

I do not want to change your mind, you are as obstinate in your view as I am in mine.

 

But this is just a forum on the 'Net. You know as well as I do that there will be many non renewals. Why don't you try and attempt an argument to try and change my mind instead of the usual vitriol? And tell me where I have actually said STAY AWAY FROM TYNECASTLE. Never.

 

I would have joined in with a non-renewal if

 

a) I felt it was organised well enough and was actually going to reach the majority of fans in order for them to make a decision

 

I thought it may impact on Vlad's plans. As I don't really think he has got any then this was pretty irrelevant.

 

I don't have the answers either which is why I renewed.

 

I certainly don't have a problem with people saying "I won't renew until a manager is employed". I actually think that is a very good tactic.

 

I do have a problem when people who are not renewing try to use it in some bizarre attempt to big themselves up as the brave ones who are making a stand.

 

Reminds me of the warrior poets from Leith in fact.

 

I'd take one solid piece of real world action ahead of a thousand over sentimental pieces of prose on an internet forum.

 

In short - I don't think Vlad will change. So unless we can find someone else willing to invest the substantial money involved in promoting change then I think we have two choices. Liking or lumping.

[djf]

you think if nothing changes, and we dont get a manager with a spine, that there will be 11500 season ticket holders?

 

Seriously?

 

The ticket office are already scraping the barrel hounding people by phone - it is already being noticed

 

Now, if season ticket sales plummet and Vlad still does not change his ways we are seriously fecked - but at least we'll know

 

the sooner all hearts fans realise exactly where we stand with Vlad the better - no point in drawing this sorry affair out longer than needs be

 

No

 

I think we'll go back to about the same number of ST holders we had before Vlad came along

 

I don't think we'll ever get relegated under Vlad either in case anyone is interested. Mid table mediocrity beckons for the immediate future I think.

[Deevers]

No

 

I think we'll go back to about the same number of ST holders we had before Vlad came along

 

I don't think we'll ever get relegated under Vlad either in case anyone is interested. Mid table mediocrity beckons for the immediate future I think.

 

That just about sums up my expectation for the next couple of seasons - unless by some miracle we do get a manager worth speaking about!!!

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I would have joined in with a non-renewal if

 

a) I felt it was organised well enough and was actually going to reach the majority of fans in order for them to make a decision

 

I thought it may impact on Vlad's plans. As I don't really think he has got any then this was pretty irrelevant.

 

I don't have the answers either which is why I renewed.

 

I certainly don't have a problem with people saying "I won't renew until a manager is employed". I actually think that is a very good tactic.

 

I do have a problem when people who are not renewing try to use it in some bizarre attempt to big themselves up as the brave ones who are making a stand.

 

Reminds me of the warrior poets from Leith in fact.

 

I'd take one solid piece of real world action ahead of a thousand over sentimental pieces of prose on an internet forum.

 

In short - I don't think Vlad will change. So unless we can find someone else willing to invest the substantial money involved in promoting change then I think we have two choices. Liking or lumping.

 

Don't worry. You will see it alright. You know it and I know it.

[Jammy T]

No

 

I think we'll go back to about the same number of ST holders we had before Vlad came along

 

I don't think we'll ever get relegated under Vlad either in case anyone is interested. Mid table mediocrity beckons for the immediate future I think.

 

So go to from the Robinson era where we were challenging for 3rd every year under Levein to doubling the debt and simply being around 6th every year is acceptable?

 

Its the football equivalent of going to Primark and buying their ?2 t-shirts for ?20

 

To be quite frank we are in an awful position

 

It sickening

 

I dont blame or am not that annoyed with people who know this deep down but are in the denial stage

 

What I cant understand is anyone backing Vlad, or defending him

[djf]

That just about sums up my expectation for the next couple of seasons - unless by some miracle we do get a manager worth speaking about!!!

 

On the bright side - it may mean an end to the incessant "IS ROBBIE NEILSON GOOD ENOUGH" threads.

[gavsmith]

I renewed today - painless it was, well until the credit card bill comes in!

 

Roll on next season with the first game being at home with the sun blazing down on the lush green Tynecastle grass and a 3-0 win over the opposition!

[CornhillHearts]

Jesus you have to laugh the amount of "fans" on here whom are taking the easy option and not renewing.

As i have said on numerous occasions were you all satisfied with the piemans Muddyfield scenario as that is what it looks like to me.

Dylan you are all talk and no action, if you feel so strongly lead the revolt, marvelous-see you at the front line.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

On the bright side - it may mean an end to the incessant "IS ROBBIE NEILSON GOOD ENOUGH" threads.

 

Thank Christ.

[djf]

So go to from the Robinson era where we were challenging for 3rd every year under Levein to doubling the debt and simply being around 6th every year is acceptable?

 

Its the football equivalent of going to Primark and buying their ?2 t-shirts for ?20

 

To be quite frank we are in an awful position

 

It sickening

 

I dont blame or am not that annoyed with people who know this deep down but are in the denial stage

 

What I cant understand is anyone backing Vlad, or defending him

 

The Robinson era was the one that has put us in the position we are in today.

 

I'd be happy with a financially viable team and an effort to lower the debt until the long term future of the club is secure. We may have missed that particular boat however.

[Sherlock]

Jesus you have to laugh the amount of "fans" on here whom are taking the easy option and not renewing.

As i have said on numerous occasions were you all satisfied with the piemans Muddyfield scenario as that is what it looks like to me.

Dylan you are all talk and no action, if you feel so strongly lead the revolt, marvelous-see you at the front line.

 

So.

 

It was ok to protest at the way CPR was running the club but it's not ok to protest at the way VR is running the club?

 

Why?

[djf]

Jesus you have to laugh the amount of "fans" on here whom are taking the easy option and not renewing.

 

 

Have you not read the bumph sent out by the club?

 

Renewing has in fact never been so easy with a wide variety of payment methods.

[Sherlock]

The Robinson era was the one that has put us in the position we are in today...

 

Agreed.

 

But does that mean that we should just accept without so much as a whimper, whatever VR does?

[djf]

Agreed.

 

But does that mean that we should just accept without so much as a whimper, whatever VR does?

 

Definately not.

 

We should have protested when Burley was sacked

 

We should have protested when Rix was appointed

 

We should have protested when the full extent of Vlad's interference was released

 

I'm not really an ideas man though. When I see a concrete plan to try and discourage Vlad's abysmal (and embarrasing) mismanagement of the club you will have my full support.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Jesus you have to laugh the amount of "fans" on here whom are taking the easy option and not renewing.

As i have said on numerous occasions were you all satisfied with the piemans Muddyfield scenario as that is what it looks like to me.

Dylan you are all talk and no action, if you feel so strongly lead the revolt, marvelous-see you at the front line.

 

 

Heil Cornholio!

 

Does make a change from you labelling well known Jambos "Huns"

 

Someone woke you up from your coffin have they?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Definately not.

 

We should have protested when Burley was sacked

 

We should have protested when Rix was appointed

 

We should have protested when the full extent of Vlad's interference was released

 

I'm not really an ideas man though. When I see a concrete plan to try and discourage Vlad's abysmal (and embarrasing) mismanagement of the club you will have my full support.

 

Were you not one of those at the time with the stock answers to all of the above being good for the club?

 

How times (and people) change.

 

Well, some do.

[Examiner]

I almost forgot the deadline, but thanks to this thread I have remembered to renew our 3tickets in time - phew!

[djf]

Were you not one of those at the time with the stock answers to all of the above being good for the club?

 

How times (and people) change.

 

Well, some do.

 

Not that I recall.

 

As far as I can remember I didn't post much around the time of the Burley sacking.

 

I certainly didn't support the Rix appointment. In fact I was 100% against it.

 

I've made my views known on team interference on many occasions.

 

Not sure what you're referring to in all honesty.

[Jammy T]

The Robinson era was the one that has put us in the position we are in today.

 

I'd be happy with a financially viable team and an effort to lower the debt until the long term future of the club is secure. We may have missed that particular boat however.

 

I absolutely agree

 

But we are now in a worse financial position than we ever were under Robinson

 

But because Vlad hasnt mentioned moving from Tynecaslte he's getting an easy ride.

 

Seriously - do you think Romanov would give us advance notice of ditching Tynecastle?

 

Would he feck.

 

It would be presented as a fait accomplit.

 

I practically guarantee you that there will be no new stand in Gorgie whilst Romanov is around

[Jammy T]

So.

 

It was ok to protest at the way CPR was running the club but it's not ok to protest at the way VR is running the club?

 

Why?

 

Exactly

 

Romanov has been a much worse owner in his time here.

 

I mean Robinson was gash.

 

But Romanov has taken incompetent owning of Heart of Midlothian FC to a new level

 

And yet we were largely united about Robinson but we are split like an axe in the skull with Romanov.

 

Its like some sort of fecking parallel universe...

[Charlie-Brown]

Exactly

 

Romanov has been a much worse owner in his time here.

 

I mean Robinson was gash.

 

But Romanov has taken incompetent owning of Heart of Midlothian FC to a new level

 

And yet we were largely united about Robinson but we are split like an axe in the skull with Romanov.

 

Its like some sort of fecking parallel universe...

 

You are clearly frustrated by differences of opinion Jammy_T .... but anyway not everyone was united against Robinson, more people were prepared to protest because they felt the immediate future of the club was in jeopardy - but there was also a significant number who did nothing becuase they felt without a new owner with new money (VR or whoever) then protesting was futile......maybe some people feel Romanov is some kind of satan, some people just think we've had a rubbish team but the clubs future is not threatened,others maybe think VR has taken some wrong steps but also some corrective action and the future isn't as bleak as some people think.....it's all about opinions JT.

[djf]

Exactly

 

Romanov has been a much worse owner in his time here.

 

I mean Robinson was gash.

 

But Romanov has taken incompetent owning of Heart of Midlothian FC to a new level

 

And yet we were largely united about Robinson but we are split like an axe in the skull with Romanov.

 

Its like some sort of fecking parallel universe...

 

Both have mismanaged the club

 

The protests against Robinson didn't really kick off until the fans felt we are close to events that may actually lead to our demise

 

I guess the majority of Hearts fans feel that although we are being mismanaged we are relatively secure at the moment.

[Jammy T]

You are clearly frustrated by differences of opinion Jammy_T .... but anyway not everyone was united against Robinson, more people were prepared to protest because they felt the immediate future of the club was in jeopardy - but there was also a significant number who did nothing becuase they felt without a new owner with new money (VR or whoever) then protesting was futile......maybe some people feel Romanov is some kind of satan, some people just think we've had a rubbish team but the clubs future is not threatened,others maybe think VR has taken some wrong steps but also some corrective action and the future isn't as bleak as some people think.....it's all about opinions JT.

 

I cant really remember a vociferous backing of Robinson.

 

There certainly wasnt the split we now have

 

The only people I remember backing him were paid PR guys who were moles on here....

[Jammy T]

 

I guess the majority of Hearts fans feel that although we are being mismanaged we are relatively secure at the moment.

 

We're having a good blether here. I'm enjoying it because you at least have a healthy dose of realism about your position.

 

Do you genuinely believe most Hearts fans feel secure?

 

My view is that most are scared shechtless. Hence why some are burying their heads and others are babbling away making up any old clap trap to try and prove the Romanov is right and good for us

[djf]

I cant really remember a vociferous backing of Robinson.

 

There certainly wasnt the split we now have

 

The only people I remember backing him were paid PR guys who were moles on here....

 

99% of Hearts fans realised that moving to Murrayfield without a plan for the future would ensure Hearts slowly bled funds until we went under. That was the uniting cause.

 

Under Romanov we don't really have such a clear cut cause. You could argue that a manager with full control over team selection would have the support of the vast majority but would it cover everyone? Some want rid of Romanov. Some want Romanov to have no say on transfers. Some want Romanov to disband the plans for upgrades to Tynecastle. Some want Romanov to spend. Some want Romanov to save.

[djf]

We're having a good blether here. I'm enjoying it because you at least have a healthy dose of realism about your position.

 

Do you genuinely believe most Hearts fans feel secure?

 

My view is that most are scared shechtless. Hence why some are burying their heads and others are babbling away making up any old clap trap to try and prove the Romanov is right and good for us

 

I'm worried but that is as much to do with my ignorance for Romanov's plans as my own suspicions.

 

Right now I can't see any reason for Romanov to purposely damage Hearts future survival. It doesn't make any sense - financially or otherwise.

 

Romanov being "good for us" is all relative I guess. As far as I can see CURRENTLY he is a lot better for us than any of other option. (administration being the only one I can think of.)

[magicTs]

It's soooooooooooo sick we have gone from being in the hands of one arrogant incompetent aloof fa**y directly to another arrogant, incompetent, egotistical, paranoid baw sack.

 

Whatever your stance as Hearts supporter's we all deserve a hell of a lot better than these clowns.