Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Coco]

INdependence is fine and I find the stance of Lamont refreshing.

It is about time that there was a sense of realism re budgetary balancing.

Part of the great unmentioned is that the state is too big and there are too many freebies to sustain.

The libdems cancelling free bus passes for pensioners with assets greater than ?1 million? Honestly ?1million?

Make it ?400k or even less.

Even if that ?400k is your house- surely you should not expect the tax payer to pay your heating bill and bus fares when you are basically sitting in a huge bank vault.

The squeezed middle are screwed. Everyone I know is broke, pay cuts, pay freezes, hikes in petrol, VAT, food bills etc have lurched many of my friends into debt. One has lost his house now. More are long term unemployed, even more are only working part time.

Yet we live amongst pensioners who holiday 3 or 4 times a year, run around in new cars and are generally minted- yet are haveing these "benefits" paid for by tax payers who are not only going down the toilet financially, yet when we get to retirement age will enjoy none of these benefits ourselves.

Stop the "but they are pensioners, they fought in the war you know" crap

NOthing should be universal- THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY FOR IT THIS WEEK, nevermind in 4 years.

Taxpayers cannot last that long

 

The Lamont strategy is bizarre. The SNP are going to be offering more free mince to all once the shackles of the English are thrown off ... and Labour up here are going to be charging for the mince which is already free?

[Boris]

Iam more than aware of the commonwealth situation my question is solely aimed at this independence of GB I'm asking why do the snp want to continue with the past when they are looking to have a new start its almost like they're a wee bit scared to leave all the past behind them or do they feel they can pick and choose the good bits of the union and keep them

 

Again I don't get convinced of the benefits of independence more I get told of the big bad union its going to take a lot of positive talk to convince people like myself to switch sides and before anyone calls me a quisling I'm as patriotic as the next person but I need convinced

 

The House of Stewart was in place long before the Act of Union.

 

The current House of Windsor owes its place to the House of Stewart.

 

The monarchy has nothing to do with the Act of Union, per se.

 

Also, there are two members of the Commonwealth who had no historical ties to Britain or the empire but they asked to join so they were allowed in.

[doctor jambo]

You would think that some party could perhaps think that the people want public services therefore they have to pay for them.

 

Therefore, increasing income tax, especially the upper rates, would create more finance to fund these public services. As a society, I think anyway, that we all have a responsibility to each other and to our future generations.

 

What we are seeing at the moment from Westminster, and to an extent from Hpolyrood, is the undermining of society as a whole as the easy targets for "deficit reduction" are public services that in the main help and support those less fortunate in our society.

 

That's certainly not the kind of society I want to grow old in, nor do I wish my son, and any potential children he may have, to have to grow up in it either.

 

I am still to decide how I shall vote in this referendum, but I would wish a society that was socially inclusive and socially responsible. At present, I am minded to think that an independent Scotland has more chance of delivering this than a Westminster parliament whose sole concern is the economic stability of Londonshire and its hinterland.

 

The Scotland Act and it's half arsed equivalents for Wales & NI, and lack of devolved government for the regions of England have helped us get to where we are now. I was/am a firm believer that a federalised UK would have made the Union stronger, but also the regions and their economies stronger too.

[southside1874]

Iam more than aware of the commonwealth situation my question is solely aimed at this independence of GB I'm asking why do the snp want to continue with the past when they are looking to have a new start its almost like they're a wee bit scared to leave all the past behind them or do they feel they can pick and choose the good bits of the union and keep them

 

Again I don't get convinced of the benefits of independence more I get told of the big bad union its going to take a lot of positive talk to convince people like myself to switch sides and before anyone calls me a quisling I'm as patriotic as the next person but I need convinced

Maybe you should read up about it with an open mind and I'm sure you won't need convinced. My opinion is that the SNP set the referendum date as far into the future as possible because the more people have a chance to look at it then become more informed, then more folk will want it.

 

It is quite possible that Scotland has had the most ill informed voters for quite some time and that isn't going to change overnight.

 

It's the UK government who want to push it through because they don't like informed voters. It's them who have everything to hide and everything to lose.

[doctor jambo]

Boris- the mistake is that this "upper tax payer" bracket is being misused.

Soak the rich?

A household income of ?60k is not rich, nor is ?70k

Many people in this bracket are really struggling, not through overstretching but just through long term price rises coupled with pay freezes.

Yes we can all make cut backs, but our biggest expenses cannot be curbed that much- because they are our children!

And at some point the "middle" has to say enough. Why should my kids go without to fund unsustainable pension perks?

I am not in favour of benefit cut backs for the poor, though they most certainly need reform- especially the disability benefits.

Is being depressed or having back ache worthy of greater money than someone without these ailments?

I would say not.

Universal nothing

Make the top tax rate on HOUSEHOLD income, not individual income- that would be fairer. Tax cuts if you have kids or dependants so a spouse can stay home and watch the kiddies, thus freeing up jobs for others

A fair tax system that acknowledges the size of a houselhold and thus likely expendable wealth or surplus cash would be nice

[Boris]

Boris- the mistake is that this "upper tax payer" bracket is being misused.

Soak the rich?

A household income of ?60k is not rich, nor is ?70k

Many people in this bracket are really struggling, not through overstretching but just through long term price rises coupled with pay freezes.

Yes we can all make cut backs, but our biggest expenses cannot be curbed that much- because they are our children!

And at some point the "middle" has to say enough. Why should my kids go without to fund unsustainable pension perks?

I am not in favour of benefit cut backs for the poor, though they most certainly need reform- especially the disability benefits.

Is being depressed or having back ache worthy of greater money than someone without these ailments?

I would say not.

Universal nothing

Make the top tax rate on HOUSEHOLD income, not individual income- that would be fairer. Tax cuts if you have kids or dependants so a spouse can stay home and watch the kiddies, thus freeing up jobs for others

A fair tax system that acknowledges the size of a houselhold and thus likely expendable wealth or surplus cash would be nice

 

I don't disagree that the whole tax system needs reformed with transparency at its heart, however I do believe that certain things should be universal.

 

The UK is oneof the wealthiest in the world, yet surely as a civilised society we should be investing in our people, be that health, education, leisure even, so that our society becomes more cohesive and less divided.

 

You rpoint re pay freezes is also applicable to those on low wages and proportionaly affects these people harder. And it is this strata of society that relies on public services more so they are in fact the recipients of a double whammy.

 

I've long believed that the current administration at Westminster is using the state of the economy as an excuse to launch an ideological pogrom against the public sector.

[doctor jambo]

I don't disagree that the whole tax system needs reformed with transparency at its heart, however I do believe that certain things should be universal.

 

The UK is oneof the wealthiest in the world, yet surely as a civilised society we should be investing in our people, be that health, education, leisure even, so that our society becomes more cohesive and less divided.

 

You rpoint re pay freezes is also applicable to those on low wages and proportionaly affects these people harder. And it is this strata of society that relies on public services more so they are in fact the recipients of a double whammy.

 

I've long believed that the current administration at Westminster is using the state of the economy as an excuse to launch an ideological pogrom against the public sector.

[doctor jambo]

I agree Boris- this is a sustained attack on everyone who is working and paying frankly.

The people at the top will always be unchecked.

The sensible thing to do with the QE would have been to take the "new" money (now amounts to ?13000 per tax payer) and simply give it to the tax payers in alphabetical manner, one letter a month over 2 years

Thus saving retailers, car manufacturers, builders etc any pain at all- a sustained flow of spendable wealth over two years on a massive scale. Jobs saved, houses saved, Banks books in healthier shape due to falls in bad loans

What they have done has been irrelevant, apart from make the cash I earn pretty worthless

[Logic1874]

Boris- the mistake is that this "upper tax payer" bracket is being misused.

Soak the rich?

A household income of ?60k is not rich, nor is ?70k

Many people in this bracket are really struggling, not through overstretching but just through long term price rises coupled with pay freezes.

Yes we can all make cut backs, but our biggest expenses cannot be curbed that much- because they are our children!

And at some point the "middle" has to say enough. Why should my kids go without to fund unsustainable pension perks?

I am not in favour of benefit cut backs for the poor, though they most certainly need reform- especially the disability benefits.

Is being depressed or having back ache worthy of greater money than someone without these ailments?

I would say not.

Universal nothing

Make the top tax rate on HOUSEHOLD income, not individual income- that would be fairer. Tax cuts if you have kids or dependants so a spouse can stay home and watch the kiddies, thus freeing up jobs for others

A fair tax system that acknowledges the size of a houselhold and thus likely expendable wealth or surplus cash would be nice

 

Think this has been tried before " doctor jambo"

 

The Community Charge ("Poll Tax") was a new system of taxation introduced in Scotland in 1989 and England and Wales in 1990 by the then ruling Conservative government. The Community Charge replaced the "Rates" - a system of tax where a certain amount was charged by the local council depending on the rental value of a house - with a flat rate charge paid by every adult, earning the nickname "Poll Tax" as a result. The value of the charge was set by the local authority and was intended, as was the Rates, to fund each local council?s provision of the infrastructure and services needed by each community.

[Das Root]

Iam more than aware of the commonwealth situation my question is solely aimed at this independence of GB I'm asking why do the snp want to continue with the past when they are looking to have a new start its almost like they're a wee bit scared to leave all the past behind them or do they feel they can pick and choose the good bits of the union and keep them

 

Again I don't get convinced of the benefits of independence more I get told of the big bad union its going to take a lot of positive talk to convince people like myself to switch sides and before anyone calls me a quisling I'm as patriotic as the next person but I need convinced

 

 

 

I am happy to put myself forward as King. I will immediately sign warrants of removal for everybody who supports either of the OF. And enact into law the wearing of jester hats for all Hibs fans. Hearts will win the SPL each season under pain of death to all other club players if not.

 

A glorious new dawn awaits us if you vote YES.

[southside1874]

I am happy to put myself forward as King. I will immediately sign warrants of removal for everybody who supports either of the OF. And enact into law the wearing of jester hats for all Hibs fans. Hearts will win the SPL each season under pain of death to all other club players if not.

 

A glorious new dawn awaits us if you vote YES.

 

This is the most credible contribution you have made so far!

[JamboX2]

Britain is in such a frigging mess that Labour do not want to be in power either,

 

Ed Milliband, when was last time we heard him saying any sense or having a go at Cameron,

 

His own brother David doesn't even want to be in his cabinet, ffs

 

In 2010 tories won 1 seat out of 59 that they contested in Scotland, 16.7% of our votes, says enough - get them to FxxK,

 

Why is Johann Lamont not trying to have a go at Tories for mess Britain are in, rather than have a go at Independance for Scotland,

 

Because she knows Labour could or would not do any better,

 

Vote for me and i'll stop free care for the elderly,free prescriptions for the sick,free uni education then i'll put up you council tax,

 

Yet she is Scottish Labour Leader, our forefathers are spinning in their graves,

 

Labour's entire 2011 campaign was an ati-Tory cuts one for Holyrood. Ian Gray always said he'd fight the Tories whilst fighting for the Union if elected. That was their strategy. They were mocked for a lack of realism and negativity and lost badly. Cant have it both ways.

 

Lamont is right. Why should the wealthy get free prescriptions? As a student free tuition is good but no graduate endowment tax is having a knock on effect. The social policies for supporting poorer students into uni (living grants etc) are going and key parts of my degree are now no longer covered by the free tuition fee. I study law, my 5th year is now charged with no assistance. I have to do this year to practice. A lot of folk i know, from poorer backgrounds have dropped out as Russel doesnt view this year as a degree year. So we narrow the social class in professions and starve social mobility. You cant have a give away culture now. If tge Scottish govt had to levy its own taxes a lot of freebies wouldnt exist and means testing would be involved. Its a shame. Its unfair as those who need help are gettimg less to let those who can and should pay get free stuff they dont need.

[3fingersreid]

I am happy to put myself forward as King. I will immediately sign warrants of removal for everybody who supports either of the OF. And enact into law the wearing of jester hats for all Hibs fans. Hearts will win the SPL each season under pain of death to all other club players if not.

 

A glorious new dawn awaits us if you vote YES.

See that's a convincing argument lol

[Das Root]

See that's a convincing argument lol

 

 

I can count on your vote then? I have already started on my campaign signs.

 

 

[Meadows]

J K Rowling seems to have it sussed.....

[Boris]

J K Rowling seems to have it sussed.....

And her opinion is somehow more relevant or important than A N Other's because...?

[doctor jambo]

And her opinion is somehow more relevant or important than A N Other's because...?

 

Clearly her view as a multi millionairess so detatched from the common people she had a mansion torn down to make her garden bigger makes her incredibly relevant.

Still just because you wrote some crap books that became freakishly successful for no known reason (see the Fifty shades trilogy) shouldn't discount you from giving your opinion.

Sorry, I retract that, her opinion is utterly irrelevant.

[systemx]

At least JK stays here and pays her taxes unlike someof themore high profile Nats.

[2NaFish]

At least JK stays here and pays her taxes unlike someof themore high profile Nats.

 

or high profile unionists, aye?

[Alba gu Brath]

Labour's new approach is bizarre and probably even more Tory than the Tories would be here.

 

Funnily enough in Stirling - Labour have united with the Tories and have actually cut the council tax - by some 14p a week to the average Joe. On the other hand they critise the SNP cooncil tax freeze??! Not sure how this will protect services there.

 

Labour have been bankrupt for years and have been content to produce their MPs from a factory line of west coast Labour and auld trade union yes men. They've taken our votes for granted for far too long. Good riddance to them.

 

The kind of politics followed in London is not in our best interests. Independence will see us run the whole show instead of just some/most of it.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Alba gu Brath

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

What's the deal if the yes vote fails? Is there a set period of time before another referendum take place?

[southside1874]

What's the deal if the yes vote fails? Is there a set period of time before another referendum take place?

As soon as the MSPs vote for another referendum. So in theory if the SNP have the majority then as part of their manifesto they will push for another referendum.

[Das Root]

And her opinion is somehow more relevant or important than A N Other's because...?

 

 

she's magical. Like Jesus.

[JamboX2]

Labour's new approach is bizarre and probably even more Tory than the Tories would be here.

 

Funnily enough in Stirling - Labour have united with the Tories and have actually cut the council tax - by some 14p a week to the average Joe. On the other hand they critise the SNP cooncil tax freeze??! Not sure how this will protect services there.

 

Labour have been bankrupt for years and have been content to produce their MPs from a factory line of west coast Labour and auld trade union yes men. They've taken our votes for granted for far too long. Good riddance to them.

 

The kind of politics followed in London is not in our best interests. Independence will see us run the whole show instead of just some/most of it.

 

The more and more nationists go on about independence the more and more its clear they just dont like Labour. Which is fair enough.

 

Have you read what she's actually said? Its pretty mature politics which realises the issues facing us. You cant continue on with freebies when you have less and less revenue. Its about choosing whether a tax freeze is better for you and Scotland than under resourced schools, or whether wealthy individuals get free prescriptions rather than paying to have high nursing numbers. Its actually a reasonable centre left position of focus resources where they do most good.

[Das Root]

The more and more nationists go on about independence the more and more its clear they just dont like Labour. Which is fair enough.

 

Have you read what she's actually said? Its pretty mature politics which realises the issues facing us. You cant continue on with freebies when you have less and less revenue. Its about choosing whether a tax freeze is better for you and Scotland than under resourced schools, or whether wealthy individuals get free prescriptions rather than paying to have high nursing numbers. Its actually a reasonable centre left position of focus resources where they do most good.

 

 

What's not to love about Labour? 13 or so years of bliss and a booming economy reminds us all how thoroughly fanstastic they are.

[Boris]

The more and more nationists go on about independence the more and more its clear they just dont like Labour. Which is fair enough.

 

Have you read what she's actually said? Its pretty mature politics which realises the issues facing us. You cant continue on with freebies when you have less and less revenue. Its about choosing whether a tax freeze is better for you and Scotland than under resourced schools, or whether wealthy individuals get free prescriptions rather than paying to have high nursing numbers. Its actually a reasonable centre left position of focus resources where they do most good.

 

I'm sure it could be argued that an independent Scotland could have higher revenues via oil & gas?

 

New Labour has let Scotland down, imo.

 

As I've alluded to earlier, where Westminster politics are concerned, it is London & its hinterland that dictate policy. That's where the electoral battleground is.

[southside1874]

Labour's entire 2011 campaign was an ati-Tory cuts one for Holyrood. Ian Gray always said he'd fight the Tories whilst fighting for the Union if elected. That was their strategy. They were mocked for a lack of realism and negativity and lost badly. Cant have it both ways.

 

Lamont is right. Why should the wealthy get free prescriptions? As a student free tuition is good but no graduate endowment tax is having a knock on effect. The social policies for supporting poorer students into uni (living grants etc) are going and key parts of my degree are now no longer covered by the free tuition fee. I study law, my 5th year is now charged with no assistance. I have to do this year to practice. A lot of folk i know, from poorer backgrounds have dropped out as Russel doesnt view this year as a degree year. So we narrow the social class in professions and starve social mobility. You cant have a give away culture now. If tge Scottish govt had to levy its own taxes a lot of freebies wouldnt exist and means testing would be involved. Its a shame. Its unfair as those who need help are gettimg less to let those who can and should pay get free stuff they dont need.

As far as education goes mate, are you aware that over 25% of kids in Edinburgh are privately educated. This means that their parents are paying for their education instead of sending them to state schools. These same folk prefer to pay for their own prescriptions and medical care. They also pay for their glasses and dentists. A lot of them could be driving around in disability cars but don't. When and if they become infirm and have to go into care homes, their estate pays for it. Are you now wanting to deny them one years education at university?

You appear to think that if Scotland was to raise its own taxes then it wouldn't be able to afford a lot of freebies. This is complete and utter nonsense. Scotland has to work within the financial constraints of the UK. That is the need to create desperation through unemployment to keep costs down as we trade on the basis of our currency remaining strong. We need to keep inflation at a level because we have to attract foreign investment. Scotland on the other hand has a small population that can export quite a lot thus freeing ourselves from the economic constraints of Westminster and giving a lot more to the development of its population. Norway currently leads the markets in so many things that Scotland could have a share of but because of huge tax levies then it stops investment in Scotland in similar industries.

 

All the unionists have had to do is create poverty in Glasgow thus feeding the crap and making them angry. All they have had to do is get half of the city worried about Ireland and stoke the hatred. We are more concerned about the situation in Ireland, in this country, than we are about Scotland. A deliberate old empire ploy of divide and conquer.............

Edited September 26, 2012 by southside1874

[JamboX2]

As far as education goes mate, are you aware that over 25% of kids in Edinburgh are privately educated. This means that their parents are paying for their education instead of sending them to state schools. These same folk prefer to pay for their own prescriptions and medical care. They also pay for their glasses and dentists. A lot of them could be driving around in disability cars but don't. When and if they become infirm and have to go into care homes, their estate pays for it. Are you now wanting to deny them one years education at university?

You appear to think that if Scotland was to raise its own taxes then it wouldn't be able to afford a lot of freebies. This is complete and utter nonsense. Scotland has to work within the financial constraints of the UK. That is the need to create desperation through unemployment to keep costs down as we trade on the basis of our currency remaining strong. We need to keep inflation at a level because we have to attract foreign investment. Scotland on the other hand has a small population that can export quite a lot thus freeing ourselves from the economic constraints of Westminster and giving a lot more to the development of its population. Norway currently leads the markets in so many things that Scotland could have a share of but because of huge tax levies then it stops investment in Scotland in similar industries.

 

All the unionists have had to do is create poverty in Glasgow thus feeding the crap and making them angry. All they have had to do is get half of the city worried about Ireland and stoke the hatred. We are more concerned about the situation in Ireland, in this country, than we are about Scotland. A deliberate old empire ploy of divide and conquer.............

 

No sorry, I dont want to deny anyone a year at education. That's my point. Because the Scottish government got rid of the graduate endownent (which was fair) the assistance policies at universities have dried up. This means in degrees, like Law, where you have a 5th year, which is essential but not included in the free tuition, learning practice, those from poorer, and middle income, families are struggling to aford it. I know i am. Its simply unsustainable not to have a graduate contribution. General taxation cannot sustain everything at a free price.

 

We have to be realistic. Oil and Gas revenues are declining due to north sea peaking. Its a fact. In the scandanavian nations they have great social services because of high tax and contributory systems of social services. Scotland has the power now to do something in terms of reforming social services to boost them. Yes free prescriptions for ALL is great, but why should a rich man get subsidized prescriptions? Why should someone in a mansion in Morningside pay proportionally less in cash terms (due to higher income) than someone who lives in South Gyle? Cause in effect that's what a council tax freeze does. Thats what universal free prescriptions do.

 

Even on independence we'd face a squeeze. Gavin McCrone, who was senior economic adviser to the Scottish government wrote in todays Scotsman that Scotland in terms of benefits gets a union-dividend more so than Northern England which would be at an unsustainae rate come independence. Our governance structure is outdated in a devolved settlement, you no longer need 32 councils duplicating services its a major drain on finances. Difficult choices will come whether we go independent or not. John Swinney tecently said we'd inherit our share of bank liabilities. As per the same rules of international law as our supposed immediate entry to the EU. That will necessitate cuts. Markets will view a largy blooted scottish public sector as a hiderance and want it cut back. Its protected, rightly or wrongly, by the wider UK. Cuts are coming regardless where power lies.

 

Freebies are running into harsh economic reality. Theres little guarantee of a huge boost in economic output here on independece. Economics dont work like that. You cannot be like the SNP of low taxes and high spending anymore. Its unfeasie and frankly a lie to say its sustainable.

 

We Scots need to realiase that freezes in council tax, especially, are detrimentally affecting key front line services from books in classrooms to beds in hospitals to busses in Edinburgh.

[JamboX2]

What's not to love about Labour? 13 or so years of bliss and a booming economy reminds us all how thoroughly fanstastic they are.

 

They arent. But no political party are. Had it been 13 years of SNP rule which started with big fan fare and hopes, early successes, and ended with a stagnant economy, on the back foot due to a global crisis and divided by in fighting, then I'm sure it'd be the same. Politics is cyclical. The SNP will go the way of every lot in charge...out of touch, arrogant and focused on matters which noone cares about.

[Das Root]

They arent. But no political party are. Had it been 13 years of SNP rule which started with big fan fare and hopes, early successes, and ended with a stagnant economy, on the back foot due to a global crisis and divided by in fighting, then I'm sure it'd be the same. Politics is cyclical. The SNP will go the way of every lot in charge...out of touch, arrogant and focused on matters which noone cares about.

 

 

They can do what they want after Scotland gets independence.

[3fingersreid]

I can count on your vote then? I have already started on my campaign signs.

 

 

Not so fast my friend not so fast

[3fingersreid]

Maybe you should read up about it with an open mind and I'm sure you won't need convinced. My opinion is that the SNP set the referendum date as far into the future as possible because the more people have a chance to look at it then become more informed, then more folk will want it.

 

It is quite possible that Scotland has had the most ill informed voters for quite some time and that isn't going to change overnight.

 

It's the UK government who want to push it through because they don't like informed voters. It's them who have everything to hide and everything to lose.

Your second last paragraph instead of wasting time teaching gaelic in schools perhaps that class time could be used to educate the 15/16/17 year olds about the the pros and cons of this decision as if the snp get their way that age group have a decision to make that will affect their futures

[Coco]

The Labour party really have lost it.

 

This dafty suggests that the council tax freeze is 'taking money out of the economy' (with shades of Gordon Brown) - the money which according to him should be used to fund absymally low productivity extra public sector jobs!

 

It is like they are doing everything they can to lose the independence vote.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/free-services-have-cost-18-000-jobs-this-year-alone-warns-professor-1-2549088

[southside1874]

Your second last paragraph instead of wasting time teaching gaelic in schools perhaps that class time could be used to educate the 15/16/17 year olds about the the pros and cons of this decision as if the snp get their way that age group have a decision to make that will affect their futures

 

It would appear that Scots actually back the teaching of gaelic.

 

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture/2998-poll-shows-scots-support-gaelic-and-scottish-studies

 

Personally, I would prefer the schools to give their students a broader education so the students have the ability to do some research of their own.

[3fingersreid]

It would appear that Scots actually back the teaching of gaelic.

 

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture/2998-poll-shows-scots-support-gaelic-and-scottish-studies

 

Personally, I would prefer the schools to give their students a broader education so the students have the ability to do some research of their own.

There is a world of difference in doing research of their own and being educated or we wouldn't have or need teachers and lecturers

 

As for teaching gaelic that'll be a real helpful language when as an independent nation we will be trying to set up increased export deals, given that it is a language that has never been spoken in lowland Scotland why are they not just teaching it as an extra ciriculam lesson

 

The 87% were asked about gaelic AND Scottish studies but just you carry on being selective .......wonder where they asked the questions?

[Logic1874]

Labour's entire 2011 campaign was an ati-Tory cuts one for Holyrood. Ian Gray always said he'd fight the Tories whilst fighting for the Union if elected. That was their strategy. They were mocked for a lack of realism and negativity and lost badly. Cant have it both ways.

 

Lamont is right. Why should the wealthy get free prescriptions? As a student free tuition is good but no graduate endowment tax is having a knock kon effect. The social policies for supporting poorer students into uni (living grants etc) are going and ey coveparts of my degree are now no longerred by the free tuition fee. I study law, my 5th year is now charged with no assistance. I have to do this year to practice. A lot of folk i know, from poorer backgrounds have dropped out as Russel doesnt view this year as a degree year. So we narrow the social class in professions and starve social mobility. You cant have a give away culture now. If tge Scottish govt had to levy its own taxes a lot of freebies wouldnt exist and means testing would be involved. Its a shame. Its unfair as those who need help are gettimg less to let those who can and [/b]should pay get free stuff they dont need.

 

Cheers for replying JamboX2

Can we go over a few of your points,

 

Gray said he fight Tories and fight for the union

He didn't do very well did he - Humped by Tories and ran for covered into Greggs,

 

Why should we have free prescriptions and student fees etc

yet you go on to say you have to pay for your 5TH YEAR studying law - Did you get your first 4 years uni for free - if you did pot and kettle mate,

Again if you did get 4 years free at uni to study law - could you not followed your convictions [ no pun intended ] and refused payment for someone more needy ???

[4marsbars]

Some unionists turned up from the BNP - about 3 fitba thugs with Union Jacks. That sums it up - a huge swathe of positive people marching for independence and the face of the out of date Union represented by the violence of some thick nazis.

 

 

Sums what up?

 

Sums up the quality of your thinking, if anything.

 

So the BNP don't support Scottish independence. Who knew?

 

Thus, anyone who doesn't want independence is on the same side as the BNP. Go and learn some logic.

 

Just don't play the unionists = Nazis card. There's two more years of this. Frankly, I just want it to be over.

[Boris]

I study law, my 5th year is now charged with no assistance. I have to do this year to practice. A lot of folk i know, from poorer backgrounds have dropped out as Russel doesnt view this year as a degree year.

 

It's not.

 

It's the equivalent to a Postgraduate qualification.

 

An LLB can be taken in 4 years.

 

What you are referirng to, I think, is the Diploma in Professional Legal Practice.

 

There are very, very few Postgraduate courses that have their fees paid for.

[Floyd]

Cheers for replying JamboX2

Can we go over a few of your points,

 

Gray said he fight Tories and fight for the union

He didn't do very well did he - Humped by Tories and ran for covered into Greggs,

 

Why should we have free prescriptions and student fees etc[/b]

yet you go on to say you have to pay for your 5TH YEAR studying law - Did you get your first 4 years uni for free - if you did pot and kettle mate,

Again if you did get 4 years free at uni to study law - could you not followed your convictions [ no pun intended ] and refused payment for someone more needy ???

 

The part about Greggs is factually inaccurate as it was Subway on Jamaica street in Glasgow that he hid in.

 

[Boris]

The part about Greggs is factually inaccurate as it was Subway on Jamaica street in Glasgow that he hid in.

 

 

The Greggs thing must have been a rumour.....

 

[TheMaganator]

It's not.

 

It's the equivalent to a Postgraduate qualification.

 

An LLB can be taken in 4 years.

 

What you are referirng to, I think, is the Diploma in Professional Legal Practice.

 

There are very, very few Postgraduate courses that have their fees paid for.

 

 

The Diploma in Legal Practice is still funded for the best students, is it not? The best 300 or so. The problem is that there are now loads of Unis offering the LLB - so more people are doing it.

[Boris]

The Diploma in Legal Practice is still funded for the best students, is it not? The best 300 or so. The problem is that there are now loads of Unis offering the LLB - so more people are doing it.

 

 

Uni's can fund PG if they see fit, but there are very few course that the State will support. Teacher training and, as I found out, librarianship as they are deemed vocational.

 

I think there are 6 HEI's in Scotland that provide the Diploma in Legal Practice and, as you say, competition is very tight for places.

[TheMaganator]

Uni's can fund PG if they see fit, but there are very few course that the State will support. Teacher training and, as I found out, librarianship as they are deemed vocational.

 

I think there are 6 HEI's in Scotland that provide the Diploma in Legal Practice and, as you say, competition is very tight for places.

Funded places?

 

There are more DipLP places than ever before, are there not? The law soc don't (I do not think) ever intend to cap it.

 

As has been the case in USA for years - we have more law students than traineeship places and many more newly qualified lawyers than NQ positions. It has never been a worse time to get into law.

[Boris]

Funded places?

 

There are more DipLP places than ever before, are there not? The law soc don't (I do not think) ever intend to cap it.

 

As has been the case in USA for years - we have more law students than traineeship places and many more newly qualified lawyers than NQ positions. It has never been a worse time to get into law.

 

 

Places in general, as far as I am aware. Demand is far outstripping supply, so the students who apply have their whole uni career looked at. So, for example, if you had to resit a first year module in, say, Family Law, chances are you would be gazumped for a spot.

 

That's my understanding anyway.

 

I think my institution was thinking about setting up a Diploma course to try to alleviate the demand on other institutions, but haben't heard anything about that for a while.

[southside1874]

There is a world of difference in doing research of their own and being educated or we wouldn't have or need teachers and lecturers

 

As for teaching gaelic that'll be a real helpful language when as an independent nation we will be trying to set up increased export deals, given that it is a language that has never been spoken in lowland Scotland why are they not just teaching it as an extra ciriculam lesson

 

The 87% were asked about gaelic AND Scottish studies but just you carry on being selective .......wonder where they asked the questions?

Are you for real? The whole point in education is so you can then research things properly and then come to their own conclusions. As for learning any language, this is an art and gets a part of the brain working that would probably otherwise lie dormant. The population of the UK are extremely ignorant when it comes to learning languages so any push in this direction is whole heartedly welcomed by me. There are millions of folk on the continent who can speak loads of different languages because they learnt from a young age to deal with other languages. They also teach gaelic in Ireland and Wales without some unionist poking their oar in.

[JamboX2]

The Diploma in Legal Practice is still funded for the best students, is it not? The best 300 or so. The problem is that there are now loads of Unis offering the LLB - so more people are doing it.

 

Done away with these past few years. Unis are skint. I did get free fees, and i wouldnt do away with them, i would bring back the graduate endowment though. Its only fair that i pay back for the great education i got through extra tax to boost the next generation. Unis are increasingly cash strapped. The lack of the endowment is hurting our universities and is reducing the quality of the education. But just to clarify free fees can be sustained but only if we return the endowment.

 

The DPLP is an essential element of the legal qualification. Its recent reclassification as a postgrade exempts it from full student loan funding was well intentioned but has made it harder for those from low income backgrounds into the profession. This will send the profession nack to being a bastion of the wealthy. And it will. The campaign for a more representative profession has targeted this as an area for great concern as it is effectively slamming the door into the profession.

 

I believe in a welfare system, but we need to look to a more contributory based system. I dont think many students,.at least most students i know, would object to the endowment returning. It's tge same with free prescriptions to me. If you can pay, you should.

[Floyd]

The Greggs thing must have been a rumour.....

 

 

That's where I hear about it.

[JamboX2]

Cheers for replying JamboX2

Can we go over a few of your points,

 

Gray said he fight Tories and fight for the union

He didn't do very well did he - Humped by Tories and ran for covered into Greggs,

 

Why should we have free prescriptions and student fees etc[/b]

yet you go on to say you have to pay for your 5TH YEAR studying law - Did you get your first 4 years uni for free - if you did pot and kettle mate,

Again if you did get 4 years free at uni to study law - could you not followed your convictions [ no pun intended ] and refused payment for someone more needy ???

 

Humped by the Tories? SNP no?

 

Yeh he did get beat, and badly. He dealt with the ambush poorly and squandered the huge poll lead.

Doesnt change the fact that the campaign was one you called on labour to follow, ie fight all cuts and tell the tories to go run and jump.

 

No one in Scottish Labour, or the top of the party, in 2011 was really that great. Lamont is still, out of the rump of experienced msps left, the best they've got.

[southside1874]

Done away with these past few years. Unis are skint. I did get free fees, and i wouldnt do away with them, i would bring back the graduate endowment though. Its only fair that i pay back for the great education i got through extra tax to boost the next generation. Unis are increasingly cash strapped. The lack of the endowment is hurting our universities and is reducing the quality of the education. But just to clarify free fees can be sustained but only if we return the endowment.

 

The DPLP is an essential element of the legal qualification. Its recent reclassification as a postgrade exempts it from full student loan funding was well intentioned but has made it harder for those from low income backgrounds into the profession. This will send the profession nack to being a bastion of the wealthy. And it will. The campaign for a more representative profession has targeted this as an area for great concern as it is effectively slamming the door into the profession.

 

I believe in a welfare system, but we need to look to a more contributory based system. I dont think many students,.at least most students i know, would object to the endowment returning. It's tge same with free prescriptions to me. If you can pay, you should.

 

Interesting points here. When I studied Building at Uni it was brought to our attention that although we study for the same time period as Lawyers and Accountants, for some reason the companies who employed lawyers and accountants would think nothing about charging ?120 for an hours work for these folk but the companies we would work for would struggle to charge ?50 for an hour of our services.

Do you not think that law firms should accept graduates and then pay to send these graduates for their final years training rather than the state having to pay for it?

[Das Root]

Humped by the Tories? SNP no?

 

Yeh he did get beat, and badly. He dealt with the ambush poorly and squandered the huge poll lead.

Doesnt change the fact that the campaign was one you called on labour to follow, ie fight all cuts and tell the tories to go run and jump.

 

No one in Scottish Labour, or the top of the party, in 2011 was really that great. Lamont is still, out of the rump of experienced msps left, the best they've got.

 

 

Lamont will be lucky to see out the next six months after that recent speech. I can see Jim Murphy being shipped north in the near future.