Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Floyd]

Lamont will be lucky to see out the next six months after that recent speech. I can see Jim Murphy being shipped north in the near future.

 

At least Murphy would give Eck a run for his money.

[Das Root]

At least Murphy would give Eck a run for his money.

 

 

Would he? Always comes across as a right condescending prick imo, especially so when he was Scottish Secretary.

[Big D]

I've been a bit busy recently so have been an infrequent shed visitor. Some great entrenched positions on this. History is eloquent on futility of entrenchment. Scotland moves forward, somehow, or dies. The countries emerging from dead empires are desperate to piss all over us because they see us as willing victims of the last dead empire in Europe. They rightly scorn the lion of Scotland suckling a dead ewe.

Can I just say, anyone that thinks Jim Murphy should be in charge of Scotland must give us their next of kin's details so we can get them sectioned.

[3fingersreid]

Are you for real? The whole point in education is so you can then research things properly and then come to their own conclusions. As for learning any language, this is an art and gets a part of the brain working that would probably otherwise lie dormant. The population of the UK are extremely ignorant when it comes to learning languages so any push in this direction is whole heartedly welcomed by me. There are millions of folk on the continent who can speak loads of different languages because they learnt from a young age to deal with other languages. They also teach gaelic in Ireland and Wales without some unionist poking their oar in.

Am I for real ?

 

 

I have no objection to school kids learning foreign languages I wasn't good enough at school to follow up my German however my wife speaks French my oldest speaks French and Spanish now learning German all of which will come in more than usefull when she goes to Europe either on holiday or for work when she's older in the mean time instead of getting basic German Spanish or French my youngest is getting taught fekin gaelic

 

My mum originally from Wick and my bro in law who is from and who still lives in stornaway can speak gaelic they very rarely ever do

 

It's not the first time you've posted a reply to me that has put words in my post that I haven't used at no point did I say no other languages should be taught ....this country is shocking when it comes to teaching foreign languages but what benefit will teaching gaelic have so its more a case of you get real and take your Tartan specks off

[southside1874]

Am I for real ?

 

 

I have no objection to school kids learning foreign languages I wasn't good enough at school to follow up my German however my wife speaks French my oldest speaks French and Spanish now learning German all of which will come in more than usefull when she goes to Europe either on holiday or for work when she's older in the mean time instead of getting basic German Spanish or French my youngest is getting taught fekin gaelic

 

My mum originally from Wick and my bro in law who is from and who still lives in stornaway can speak gaelic they very rarely ever do

 

It's not the first time you've posted a reply to me that has put words in my post that I haven't used at no point did I say no other languages should be taught ....this country is shocking when it comes to teaching foreign languages but what benefit will teaching gaelic have so its more a case of you get real and take your Tartan specks off

I didn't say that you inclined that languages shouldn't be taught. I pointed out that learning any language is better than none and that teaching kids this from a young age helps them. To debate about what language is most suitable and that learning chinese or indian or perhaps russian would serve them better in life is not for me to decide and is probably why the powers that be chose gaelic as they couldn't decide. My point was that a kid learning any other language beyond their native tongue, triggers brain cells that make it easier for them to learn other languages they may choose in future. Language is an art and within reason shouldn't be looked at as something that will serve society well but more themselves well.

If for instance we imposed German on youngsters at a young age for the sake of benefiting society and the leading language turned out to be chinese when they grew into the workplace, then would this be acceptable and explained in what way? I don't have tartan specks but I appreciate that primary school kids are introduced to other languages at a time when it has more impact on them. I don't know what language it should be and in my smallest of imaginations I would think they would have had a vote on it.

As you have pointed out that gaelic wasn't spoken in lowland Scotland then I would imagine that Lowland and Central Scotland MSPs maybe had mixed votes and the highlanders won through with solidarity.

 

I thank you for giving me an insight into why folk want to keep the union. They see no point in satisfying the needs or wants of folk on the edges of this country and want to use everything generated to satisfy their own self needs.

Scotland has enough wealth to allow its population to express themselves without the need for frustration due to financial constraints. Scottish people in general are wound up so tight due to their financial constraints that they divide themselves to an extreme over stupid things like a language taught at school and yet nothing is ever resolved because dialogue falls down.

 

In Scotland we all have different times for our summer holidays. Yes the trades holidays in Edinburgh and Glasgow and Fife are all different. We all have our September weekend on different weekend in September. I don't think there is another country in the world that operates like this. Within each of these regions we appear to embrace the footballing rivalry to an extreme and our whole world as football fans is dictated with winning and outdoing our rivals and this becomes more apparent when we see the huge shift towards folk supporting the "old firm" and adopting their core values of waving an Irish flag or a Union flag. Not one scottish flag in sight.

 

So without prejudice can you see how gaelic won the day and how folk maybe didn't voted for a latin or germanic language because of their footballing persuasions.

 

Anyway the problems laid out are quite large to overcome and this is why, I assume, that the date for the referendum was set far into the future. Seriously, I doubt Rangers would have been brought to task if we had a westminster based political party in power at Holyrood.

Anyway, I doubt Scotland will vote for Independence. The UK has far too much to lose by allowing its cash cow to leave. As was done previously, Glasgow will sell us down the river by making a complete balls of the commonwealth games and we will feel that ashamed that we will remain the bunch of wound up erses that for some reason hang onto some kind of false nationality that the rest of the world find difficult to understand.

 

A complete lack of courage and a complete lack of conviction.

[Floyd]

 

Can I just say, anyone that thinks Jim Murphy should be in charge of Scotland must give us their next of kin's details so we can get them sectioned.

 

Didn't say I wanted him in charge as that would go against my political beliefs, but I do think Eck has it too easy at the moment, Joanne Lamont is doing her best, but she is the best of a bad lot in terms of challenging Eck.

 

Willie Rennie isn't much better and Ruth Davidson lacks the power to have a good go at him, I'm still surprised that she got the vote to lead the party to be honest.

 

And Patrick Harvie from the Greens is Patrick Harvie. .

 

Edited September 28, 2012 by Floyd

[3fingersreid]

I didn't say that you inclined that languages shouldn't be taught. I pointed out that learning any language is better than none and that teaching kids this from a young age helps them. To debate about what language is most suitable and that learning chinese or indian or perhaps russian would serve them better in life is not for me to decide and is probably why the powers that be chose gaelic as they couldn't decide. My point was that a kid learning any other language beyond their native tongue, triggers brain cells that make it easier for them to learn other languages they may choose in future. Language is an art and within reason shouldn't be looked at as something that will serve society well but more themselves well.

If for instance we imposed German on youngsters at a young age for the sake of benefiting society and the leading language turned out to be chinese when they grew into the workplace, then would this be acceptable and explained in what way? I don't have tartan specks but I appreciate that primary school kids are introduced to other languages at a time when it has more impact on them. I don't know what language it should be and in my smallest of imaginations I would think they would have had a vote on it.

As you have pointed out that gaelic wasn't spoken in lowland Scotland then I would imagine that Lowland and Central Scotland MSPs maybe had mixed votes and the highlanders won through with solidarity.

 

I thank you for giving me an insight into why folk want to keep the union. They see no point in satisfying the needs or wants of folk on the edges of this country and want to use everything generated to satisfy their own self needs.

Scotland has enough wealth to allow its population to express themselves without the need for frustration due to financial constraints. Scottish people in general are wound up so tight due to their financial constraints that they divide themselves to an extreme over stupid things like a language taught at school and yet nothing is ever resolved because dialogue falls down.

 

In Scotland we all have different times for our summer holidays. Yes the trades holidays in Edinburgh and Glasgow and Fife are all different. We all have our September weekend on different weekend in September. I don't think there is another country in the world that operates like this. Within each of these regions we appear to embrace the footballing rivalry to an extreme and our whole world as football fans is dictated with winning and outdoing our rivals and this becomes more apparent when we see the huge shift towards folk supporting the "old firm" and adopting their core values of waving an Irish flag or a Union flag. Not one scottish flag in sight.

 

So without prejudice can you see how gaelic won the day and how folk maybe didn't voted for a latin or germanic language because of their footballing persuasions.

 

Anyway the problems laid out are quite large to overcome and this is why, I assume, that the date for the referendum was set far into the future. Seriously, I doubt Rangers would have been brought to task if we had a westminster based political party in power at Holyrood.

Anyway, I doubt Scotland will vote for Independence. The UK has far too much to lose by allowing its cash cow to leave. As was done previously, Glasgow will sell us down the river by making a complete balls of the commonwealth games and we will feel that ashamed that we will remain the bunch of wound up erses that for some reason hang onto some kind of false nationality that the rest of the world find difficult to understand.

 

A complete lack of courage and a complete lack of conviction.

Well southy that's the best post you've done ( and I include the ones on the Edinburgh derby ) my point is if Scotland wants to succeed after independence gaelic won't be the language to help business deals

I do however strongly believe it should still be kept alive after all its part of Scottish fabric but not at the expence of say a more useful 2nd language more along side it

[JamboX2]

Interesting points here. When I studied Building at Uni it was brought to our attention that although we study for the same time period as Lawyers and Accountants, for some reason the companies who employed lawyers and accountants would think nothing about charging ?120 for an hours work for these folk but the companies we would work for would struggle to charge ?50 for an hour of our services.

Do you not think that law firms should accept graduates and then pay to send these graduates for their final years training rather than the state having to pay for it?

 

Some do, some dont. Depends on firm size. Pinsent Mason can afford to do that but a small legal aid firm couldnt. So that too would be hard to square.

[TheMaganator]

Interesting points here. When I studied Building at Uni it was brought to our attention that although we study for the same time period as Lawyers and Accountants, for some reason the companies who employed lawyers and accountants would think nothing about charging ?120 for an hours work for these folk but the companies we would work for would struggle to charge ?50 for an hour of our services.

Do you not think that law firms should accept graduates and then pay to send these graduates for their final years training rather than the state having to pay for it?

 

The traineeship is essentially the final part of your 'legal education'. It last two years and you get the equivalent of one years salary for it (that is the theory anyway, in practice firms are paying less and less for trainees). You need to have your LLB and DipLP before your traineeship starts. Some firms do pay for the DipLP (not so much anymore and one firm two years ago paid for the DipLP for the trainees it was taking on, but then demanded the money back when times were tough).

 

I did the accelerated LLB that lasts 2 years (after my first degree) and DipLP. Those 3 years studying cost me just shy of ?20k for fees alone. I am lucky in that my parents paid for it all so the point above is a valid one - that the system does favour those that are more wealthy.

 

Dont know what the solution is to be honest. Those approaching retirement now had free Uni and were given a grant to go there. Too many people are going to Uni now. The degree is not worth what it used to be and saddles people with debt. A standard degree is not really worth the paper it is printed on any more.

 

I have a mate that joined the Foreign Office after Uni. He went in three levels below the 'graduate scheme level' - everyone, including him, had post-Grad Masters Degrees at his level.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Anyway, I doubt Scotland will vote for Independence. The UK has far too much to lose by allowing its cash cow to leave.

 

Wait, you're saying that the yes vote will fail because the rest of UK doesn't want Scotland to leave - even though the rest of the UK won't be allowed to vote in the referendum?

 

If the yes vote fails it'll be because not enough people believe what the Nats spin at them.

[BigMDV]

Maybe you should read up about it with an open mind and I'm sure you won't need convinced. My opinion is that the SNP set the referendum date as far into the future as possible because the more people have a chance to look at it then become more informed, then more folk will want it.

 

It is quite possible that Scotland has had the most ill informed voters for quite some time and that isn't going to change overnight.

 

It's the UK government who want to push it through because they don't like informed voters. It's them who have everything to hide and everything to lose.

 

Or maybe he wants the referendum to coincide with the 700 years bannockburn celebrations to suit his agenda? (to think some abuse the bigots for celebrating Irish battles from 300 years ago, oh the irony)

[2NaFish]

Or maybe he wants the referendum to coincide with the 700 years bannockburn celebrations to suit his agenda? (to think some abuse the bigots for celebrating Irish battles from 300 years ago, oh the irony)

 

Or 100 years since the great war (oh the idiocy).

[BigMDV]

Or 100 years since the great war (oh the idiocy).

 

I'm not arguing - war is such a wonderful thing that must be celebrated

[TheMaganator]

Or maybe he wants the referendum to coincide with the 700 years bannockburn celebrations to suit his agenda? (to think some abuse the bigots for celebrating Irish battles from 300 years ago, oh the irony)

700 year Bannockburn, Commonwealth games, Ryder cup in Scotland and 'Homecoming Scotland' in 2014.

 

The timing has been selected carefully. Not that I think it will make the slightest bit of difference to the outcome.

 

Support for Independence has remained relatively static for decades - between 25-35%. The vast majority of people have already made their minds up.

 

I consider myself to be relatively interested in politics and I am already sick of the whole 'debate'. God only knows how people that arent really that bothered feel.

[On my Lunch]

700 year Bannockburn, Commonwealth games, Ryder cup in Scotland and 'Homecoming Scotland' in 2014.

 

The timing has been selected carefully. Not that I think it will make the slightest bit of difference to the outcome.

 

Support for Independence has remained relatively static for decades - between 25-35%. The vast majority of people have already made their minds up.

 

I consider myself to be relatively interested in politics and I am already sick of the whole 'debate'. God only knows how people that arent really that bothered feel.

 

Was going to post very similiar.

 

The SNP need various circumstances to come together

 

1) A westminster Gov in the last year of their term is normally at it's most unpopular

2) A Tory Gov. The SNP always have a better chance of success against the Tories than Labour

 

They also want everyone to "feel" more Scottish hence the tie in with 700th Bannockburn anniversary, the Homecoming Year ( again ) , and hoping for a lift following the Commonwealth games similar to the Bristishness lift following the olympics

 

They need it to be more an emotionally decided vote, and are obviously doing all they can to make it that way.

[doctor jambo]

Seemingly the new proposal is for children from private school to be denied free University education.

Marvellous.

Social division works two ways, and the politics of envy is a dangerous one.

In addition, what people seem to forget is that by sending your kids to private school you are paying TWICE.

You still pay for your kids place at state school, just dont take it up.

Much as they lefties hate it if every private school closed the flood of thousands of kids into an overloaded state system would potentially lead to collapse- especially as you couldn't access the money the parents are saving- they've already paid.

So no more income, yet more schools needed, teachers etc

Sometimes I wonder about our political classes- all sound-bites, no thought of the consequences

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

700 years since Bannockburn

[IMA MAROON]

700 years since Bannockburn

 

And sent him homewards to think again

[BigMDV]

Seemingly the new proposal is for children from private school to be denied free University education.

Marvellous.

Social division works two ways, and the politics of envy is a dangerous one.

In addition, what people seem to forget is that by sending your kids to private school you are paying TWICE.

You still pay for your kids place at state school, just dont take it up.

Much as they lefties hate it if every private school closed the flood of thousands of kids into an overloaded state system would potentially lead to collapse- especially as you couldn't access the money the parents are saving- they've already paid.

So no more income, yet more schools needed, teachers etc

Sometimes I wonder about our political classes- all sound-bites, no thought of the consequences

 

Good point, although the majority at private school come from wealthy backgrounds,

but there are quite a few from ordinary backgrounds, where there parent have worked

hard and scrimped and saved just to give their kids a better education

[IMA MAROON]

What a rubbish turn out and it must be very embarrassing for the pro independence mob.

 

Better Together.

 

To put things into context, there will be 30,000 today at a Unionist march.

[Das Root]

To put things into context, there will be 30,000 today at a Unionist march.

 

 

Wrong country.

[davemclaren]

Wrong country.

 

 

The Unionists have a longer tradition of marching.

[dobmisterdobster]

whisky oh the irony and hypocracy of that one this is a government that wants minimum charging to reduce alcohol intake yet it wants the rest of the world to drink us rich

There's a difference between tourists buying a 30-year-old bottle of scotch and neds drinking cans of skol in a park.

[Ulysses]

We've re-titled this thread, as you can see.

 

Here's the place to discuss the referendum and associated independence/devolution/union issues. If other threads are opened or develop on the same subjects they will be zapped.

 

***Please comply with the rules of the forum at all times.***

 

 

Some members seem to think that they have a licence to break the rules of JKB because they are engaged in a noble politicial exercise of defending Scotland or Britain. That's too bad if you think that way, because you're still posting on JKB and the rules still apply. The fact that you feel passionate about the subject is no excuse for breaking the rules. If you troll or abuse other members or groups of members you will be hearing from the moderators - and you'll be blocked from posting on this thread as well.

[southside1874]

In response to Jambosarego on the closed thread

 

 

I look at UK politics as totally fixed. I don't really think that politicians run the country. I don't really care about the SNP. If Scotland becomes independent then the SNP has always said it would cease to exist so you may have a point.

 

I do however see that a large part of UK exports are from Scotland and the pharmaceutical, distillation and petroleum products that are exported are brought into a Scottish economy then it would allow us to further improve these industries and create jobs. Scotland has huge social ills that can only be cured by long term sustained investment and the creation of jobs. We don't have to base our economy on a strong currency in Scotland. The UK has a reliance on a strong currency that stifles investment in people.

Westminster cares more about inflation than it does on the well being of the people in the country. It's folk like you that prevents Scotland from getting a good deal, not the SNP.

[systemx]

Anybody seen Alex,s Independence Consultation?Seems to have gone astray while doing a deal with the Tories.

[JamboX2]

In response to Jambosarego on the closed thread

 

 

I look at UK politics as totally fixed. I don't really think that politicians run the country. I don't really care about the SNP. If Scotland becomes independent then the SNP has always said it would cease to exist so you may have a point.

 

I do however see that a large part of UK exports are from Scotland and the pharmaceutical, distillation and petroleum products that are exported are brought into a Scottish economy then it would allow us to further improve these industries and create jobs. Scotland has huge social ills that can only be cured by long term sustained investment and the creation of jobs. We don't have to base our economy on a strong currency in Scotland. The UK has a reliance on a strong currency that stifles investment in people.

Westminster cares more about inflation than it does on the well being of the people in the country. It's folk like you that prevents Scotland from getting a good deal, not the SNP.

 

Two things:

1. Salmond and his MSPs have said for years they'd continue as a party of National Unity. To thibk they'd disband in 2016 and all go join the 3 other parties is laughable, for one the top brass want to be at the big international table.

 

2. Independence is no better a rojte to eradicating poverty than devolution. Just because Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand and Iceland are all independent hasn't cured their social ills. Devolution can do this as well as independence. Its just a lack of political will to actually act tough on matters relating to it; falling education budgets, lack of real drive on slum clearances and poor infrastructure. All are things we can change now.

Edited October 12, 2012 by JamboX2

[Boris]

 

Independence is no better a rojte to eradicating poverty than devolution. Just because Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand and Iceland are all independent hasn't cured their social ills. Devolution can do this as well as independence. Its just a lack of political will to actually act tough on matters relating to it; falling education budgets, lack of real drive on slum clearances and poor infrastructure. All are things we can change now.

 

I totally agree. However, the Westminster model will NEVER admit nor accept this.

[number-16]

Delighted that 16 and 17 year olds will get the vote and hopefully the precedent will carry on to future elections.

[Coco]

Two things:

1. Salmond and his MSPs have said for years they'd continue as a party of National Unity. To thibk they'd disband in 2016 and all go join the 3 other parties is laughable, for one the top brass want to be at the big international table.

 

2. Independence is no better a rojte to eradicating poverty than devolution. Just because Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand and Iceland are all independent hasn't cured their social ills. Devolution can do this as well as independence. Its just a lack of political will to actually act tough on matters relating to it; falling education budgets, lack of real drive on slum clearances and poor infrastructure. All are things we can change now.

 

The education budget is enormous. Never before in Scottish history have there been the opportunities and financing available for education in various ways. Perhaps the way that children/students are educated these days is the problem rather than the cash.

 

Slum clearances - are we talking the Gorbals or the like in the 50s?! Would seem to me that there have been enormous investments in improving the housing stock in Scotland. Problem of course is that the 60s concrete monstrosities are being torn down and being replaced with lower height versions of the same with the same poor shelf life. Another political choice.

 

Poor infrastructure - please expand? What sort of infrastructure changes will change social ills?

[JamboX2]

The education budget is enormous. Never before in Scottish history have there been the opportunities and financing available for education in various ways. Perhaps the way that children/students are educated these days is the problem rather than the cash.

 

Slum clearances - are we talking the Gorbals or the like in the 50s?! Would seem to me that there have been enormous investments in improving the housing stock in Scotland. Problem of course is that the 60s concrete monstrosities are being torn down and being replaced with lower height versions of the same with the same poor shelf life. Another political choice.

 

Poor infrastructure - please expand? What sort of infrastructure changes will change social ills?

 

On education, I've got family and friends who are teachers, and all of them are being called in over the next few weeks to be told of further cuts to budgets. Some in the secondary sector are mulling over cutting courses and expanding class sizes beyond the legal limit, and taking the consequences as a result to keep classes going. It's a real budget squeeze right now on the front line. A real major one.

 

Slum clearances may be an overstatement, but there are big areas of old social housing which needs pulled down. Areas where flats are boarded up and clearly substandard to folk living in them. A lot of the housing stock built in the 1960s/70s/80s needs brought up to spec or torn down. And its true. These tower blocks and estates need to be made into livable working communities. It's poor town planning that has led to the circle and spirals of poverty, no central focus, no local common amenities for all. New schools, new houses, with good transport links which would provide good mobility for folk to get work and find work.

 

Infrastructure? Well building it provides work for folk, it allows the economy to grow. One is the dueling of the A9, new railways, better roads to transport goods, broadband, better amenities the whole lot. Scotland needs updating and we can do it now.

 

 

But its a matter of priorities. We can fund these, but we need to look to budgets and prioritise appropriately. If that means free prescriptions have to go, then personally, so be it.

[JamboX2]

Delighted that 16 and 17 year olds will get the vote and hopefully the precedent will carry on to future elections.

 

Agreed. The Scottish Government could and should lead the way. They have full competency on the local government franchise, so they need change it now and make it a statement of intent for the UK. It is different, as the age of legal capacity here is 16 and in England 18 but that needn't ruin the future of the move to younger people having a choice on matters affecting them.

[Dunks]

So the Tories want to spend ?50M on a Britain is great festival in 2014 ....

 

?50M in 2014

 

 

Should anyone really be commemorating the start of a war? I'd rather celebrate the end of one

[Tott]

So the Tories want to spend ?50M on a Britain is great festival in 2014 ....

 

?50M in 2014

 

 

Should anyone really be commemorating the start of a war? I'd rather celebrate the end of one

 

 

 

Should we ignore contalmaison?

 

Cant change history,it happened,

 

 

Remember them All ,no matter your blinkered view

Edited October 13, 2012 by Tott

[Alba gu Brath]

2. Independence is no better a rojte to eradicating poverty than devolution. Just because Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand and Iceland are all independent hasn't cured their social ills. Devolution can do this as well as independence. Its just a lack of political will to actually act tough on matters relating to it; falling education budgets, lack of real drive on slum clearances and poor infrastructure. All are things we can change now.

 

 

But I'd still rather be where they are. All these nations are way better off than us. Even wee Iceland is more prosperous than we are despite their banking woes. Devolution is better than the auld Union but we still lack the complete control over our finances that could see us start to solve our problems. Sure, the money on Trident 'creates' jobs but if we're gonna use Stalinist economics then why not build shoe mountains instead of WMD mountains? Or, better still, hospitals or wind/wave turbines?

 

Many of the problems you mention are deep rooted and won't be solved overnight - however, independence will be the start of a new approach. The conservative and stuck in the past London establishment - which includes Scots - will never change things.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

And yet still no answer on how Scotland will be independent in a continuing currency union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

All that will mean is that Scotland will run a fiscal policy similar to the remaining UK if it becomes independent which kind of defeats the purpose in the first place.

[JamboX2]

 

But I'd still rather be where they are. All these nations are way better off than us. Even wee Iceland is more prosperous than we are despite their banking woes. Devolution is better than the auld Union but we still lack the complete control over our finances that could see us start to solve our problems. Sure, the money on Trident 'creates' jobs but if we're gonna use Stalinist economics then why not build shoe mountains instead of WMD mountains? Or, better still, hospitals or wind/wave turbines?

 

Many of the problems you mention are deep rooted and won't be solved overnight - however, independence will be the start of a new approach. The conservative and stuck in the past London establishment - which includes Scots - will never change things.

 

Sorry, but the blinkered and divided Holyrood establishment we have now is doing nothing productive. They will continue to be this way after independence. We need a new class of politician and a new type of politics to get this done. A national mission. The constitutional question wont change that. Tell me how a set in its ways Holyrood establishment will automatically change over night if we go independent in 2014? Because I don't see it.

[Coco]

On education, I've got family and friends who are teachers, and all of them are being called in over the next few weeks to be told of further cuts to budgets. Some in the secondary sector are mulling over cutting courses and expanding class sizes beyond the legal limit, and taking the consequences as a result to keep classes going. It's a real budget squeeze right now on the front line. A real major one.

 

Slum clearances may be an overstatement, but there are big areas of old social housing which needs pulled down. Areas where flats are boarded up and clearly substandard to folk living in them. A lot of the housing stock built in the 1960s/70s/80s needs brought up to spec or torn down. And its true. These tower blocks and estates need to be made into livable working communities. It's poor town planning that has led to the circle and spirals of poverty, no central focus, no local common amenities for all. New schools, new houses, with good transport links which would provide good mobility for folk to get work and find work.

 

Infrastructure? Well building it provides work for folk, it allows the economy to grow. One is the dueling of the A9, new railways, better roads to transport goods, broadband, better amenities the whole lot. Scotland needs updating and we can do it now.

 

 

But its a matter of priorities. We can fund these, but we need to look to budgets and prioritise appropriately. If that means free prescriptions have to go, then personally, so be it.

 

Education - budget squeeze from an absolutely enormous level historically. The idea that public sector budgets can grow year after year more quickly than the economy/tax take is the reason that Brown has left so many problems in the economy.

 

Housing - no doubt there should be improvements to be made. It is outrageous that so much money has been wasted on such poor stuff in the past - and they are doing it again - just look at the rubbish being built in Niddrie.

 

Infrastructure - clearly there could be improvements to be made. However, the Scottish Government have opted for low or perhaps even negative cost benefit ratio projects such as the trams and the Border railway. A billion pounds on a loss making tram line.

 

In all what you are arguing for is that you want better choices to be made with public money. Who doesn't want that?

[JamboX2]

Education - budget squeeze from an absolutely enormous level historically. The idea that public sector budgets can grow year after year more quickly than the economy/tax take is the reason that Brown has left so many problems in the economy.

 

Housing - no doubt there should be improvements to be made. It is outrageous that so much money has been wasted on such poor stuff in the past - and they are doing it again - just look at the rubbish being built in Niddrie.

 

Infrastructure - clearly there could be improvements to be made. However, the Scottish Government have opted for low or perhaps even negative cost benefit ratio projects such as the trams and the Border railway. A billion pounds on a loss making tram line.

 

In all what you are arguing for is that you want better choices to be made with public money. Who doesn't want that?

 

The education budget squeeze is down to tge fact that it is still drawn primarily from council tax funding, as its a local government provision. The choice is therefore high quality education from 5-18 or a tax freeze. I know whats more important to me.

 

On tge itger two poibts, again i'd say free prescriptions, no graduate tax/endowment and otger populist policies just cause a huge drain on finances which could otherwose be used to funnel cash to the front line and dealbwith the above effectively.

[JamboX2]

Sorry for the awful typing, on my phone on the bus into work.

[Coco]

The education budget squeeze is down to tge fact that it is still drawn primarily from council tax funding, as its a local government provision. The choice is therefore high quality education from 5-18 or a tax freeze. I know whats more important to me.

 

On tge itger two poibts, again i'd say free prescriptions, no graduate tax/endowment and otger populist policies just cause a huge drain on finances which could otherwose be used to funnel cash to the front line and dealbwith the above effectively.

 

According to this

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/09/7829/16

 

There is ?6bn of spending on education (revenue and capital) by local authorities this year.

 

?6bn is roughly equivalent to ?6.5k for every child in the country. I would suggest that approaching a fifth of per capita GDP on education is an enormous sum and should provide plenty funding for a good education system.

 

On your other point, free mince is the dominant political strategy and will continue to win the day for some time.

[JamboX2]

According to this

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/09/7829/16

 

There is ?6bn of spending on education (revenue and capital) by local authorities this year.

 

?6bn is roughly equivalent to ?6.5k for every child in the country. I would suggest that approaching a fifth of per capita GDP on education is an enormous sum and should provide plenty funding for a good education system.

 

On your other point, free mince is the dominant political strategy and will continue to win the day for some time.

 

That ?6bn is a mix though. From salaries of jannies and teachers and the costs of implementing the new cirriculum for excellence. Not front line provision. We are on the presipass of a major drop in provision for our schools of those i know working in schools right now are right.

[Patrick Bateman]

The latest piece of anti-indepence DoubleThink is that Cameron has won some sort of strategic victory in ensuring that we'll have a Yes/No question, rather than there being a Devo-max option. I suppose they need a new lie to pedal having lost the 'fair, legal referendum nonsense.

[Sarah O]

Still not read anything on here that would convince me to vote no.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Still not read anything on here that would convince me to vote no.

 

What's making you decide to vote yes?

[Patrick Bateman]

What's making you decide to vote yes?

 

Because I'd rather Scotland was a socially democratic nation rather than a region of a neo-conservative, increasingly isolationist union. Because Scotland contributes 9.6% to the UK treasury and gets back 9.3% in spending. Because of the McCrone report and being repeatedly lied to by a Westminster system which is corrupt beyond satire; Levinson, Expenses, Iraq, etc. Because there is no reason why Scotland cannot prosper as an independent country; ask anyone from any post-WW2 independent country whether they find sovereignty overrated, disposable, scary, threatening or wasteful and they'll give you a quizzical look and probably laugh at you. It would seem that in Scotland there are still people who are so impoverished of mind and self-respect as to regard 'INDEPENDENCE" as a pejorative, unnecessary and threatening process or state of affairs. Even after all this, the Unionists in their arrogance still think *they're* the right minded, logical thinkers, despite offering absolutely nothing in terms of improving Scotland as a country. They are instead desperate to keep their noses in the Westminster trough, funding a grandiose Metropolitan lifestyle at the taxpayer's expense without showing the slightest bit of interest or regard for their constituents. They are Quislings in the truest sense.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Because I'd rather Scotland was a socially democratic nation rather than a region of a neo-conservative, increasingly isolationist union. Because Scotland contributes 9.6% to the UK treasury and gets back 9.3% in spending. Because of the McCrone report and being repeatedly lied to by a Westminster system which is corrupt beyond satire; Levinson, Expenses, Iraq, etc. Because there is no reason why Scotland cannot prosper as an independent country; ask anyone from any post-WW2 independent country whether they find sovereignty overrated, disposable, scary, threatening or wasteful and they'll give you a quizzical look and probably laugh at you. It would seem that in Scotland there are still people who are so impoverished of mind and self-respect as to regard 'INDEPENDENCE" as a pejorative, unnecessary and threatening process or state of affairs. Even after all this, the Unionists in their arrogance still think *they're* the right minded, logical thinkers, despite offering absolutely nothing in terms of improving Scotland as a country. They are instead desperate to keep their noses in the Westminster trough, funding a grandiose Metropolitan lifestyle at the taxpayer's expense without showing the slightest bit of interest or regard for their constituents. They are Quislings in the truest sense.

 

And why would an independent Scotland be any better - what would actually change? Do you genuinely believe enough people will vote for it anyway given the statistics suggesting otherwise?

[davemclaren]

Because I'd rather Scotland was a socially democratic nation rather than a region of a neo-conservative, increasingly isolationist union. Because Scotland contributes 9.6% to the UK treasury and gets back 9.3% in spending. Because of the McCrone report and being repeatedly lied to by a Westminster system which is corrupt beyond satire; Levinson, Expenses, Iraq, etc. Because there is no reason why Scotland cannot prosper as an independent country; ask anyone from any post-WW2 independent country whether they find sovereignty overrated, disposable, scary, threatening or wasteful and they'll give you a quizzical look and probably laugh at you. It would seem that in Scotland there are still people who are so impoverished of mind and self-respect as to regard 'INDEPENDENCE" as a pejorative, unnecessary and threatening process or state of affairs. Even after all this, the Unionists in their arrogance still think *they're* the right minded, logical thinkers, despite offering absolutely nothing in terms of improving Scotland as a country. They are instead desperate to keep their noses in the Westminster trough, funding a grandiose Metropolitan lifestyle at the taxpayer's expense without showing the slightest bit of interest or regard for their constituents. They are Quislings in the truest sense.

 

Wow.

[Patrick Bateman]

And why would an independent Scotland be any better - what would actually change? Do you genuinely believe enough people will vote for it anyway given the statistics suggesting otherwise?

 

As I have said, I believe our constitution would be fairly different from Westminster. Holyrood is already a proportional parliament and isn't hemmed in by an Oxbridge cabal mindset, nor is it deluded enough to play world police, wasting billions of pounds on invading/occupying select Muslim countries and weapons of mass destruction, which are of course stored in Scotland. I've heard this line of argument before, the 'we can't really do any better' mindset: Are decisions on healthcare, justice and education better taken at Holyrood or Westminster? Do you really think we'd do worse than a triple-dip recession and one of the largest gaps between rich and poor in the developed world? Do you really think we'd spend money on nuclear weapons? I'm amazed at the number of unionists who seem to delude themselves into thinking Westminster can govern Scotland's economic, military and foreign policy concerns effectively. The facts aren't even debatable. Forgive me for not believing the likes of serial house-flipper Alistair Darling, Anas 'Waiting for the expenses checkbook, just like dad' Sarwar or David Cameron when they say Scotland is 'better together' - They are liars who are interested in feathering their nests, plain and simple.

 

The polls mean absolutely nothing at this moment in time. Iain Gray's pathetic labour party were apparently 10-15 points ahead of the SNP in early 2011 and were virtually wiped out. I want to see David Cameron and Alex Salmond on a platform outlining Scotland's future. It's simple; do you want Scotland to be a region of an irrelevant, grand-standing, bankrupt, class-driven UK, where we represent 8% in terms of the vote, or a socially democratic nation where we represent 100%. The Yes side have, in my opinion, all the credibility and intellectual currency, whereas the Can't depend purely on negativity because there is no positive case for the union any more.

[Coco]

That ?6bn is a mix though. From salaries of jannies and teachers and the costs of implementing the new cirriculum for excellence. Not front line provision. We are on the presipass of a major drop in provision for our schools of those i know working in schools right now are right.

 

As I've pointed out there is vast, enormous, massive spending on education in this country. Never before seen in history and far beyond the wildest dreams of the vast majority of people who have ever lived on the planet!

 

It is fair to ask whether the system of choosing how that money is spent is working well. I don't think that it is.