Jump to content

Scottish independence and devolution superthread


Happy Hearts

Recommended Posts

Sorry but I would have thought staying in Nato and toleratiig Tridend would be poisonous and a'tuition fees' moment for the SNP.

 

 

You actually edited that? The NATO question will be answered at this years conference in Perth. Myself I think membership should be obtained, do not think Trident is value for money though. However very few UK defence contracts are.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 27.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • TheMaganator

    2323

  • JamboX2

    2165

  • Geoff Kilpatrick

    1717

  • Boris

    1199

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Exactly this!   I was thinking about the naysayers and then thought about WHY a movement would want to lead a nation into independence which would ultimately lead to financial ruin, expulsion from c

Posted Images

Sorry but I would have thought staying in Nato and toleratiig Tridend would be poisonous and a'tuition fees' moment for the SNP.

 

Who says that the SNP would be the government if Scotland gained independence? I certainly can't see it surviving in its present form.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I've posted before my 15 year old daughter potentially could vote on this issue yet nothing is being taught at school perhaps instead of teaching gaelic in schools - a language never used in lowland Scotland- perhaps they could start some pro and anti independence arguments

 

 

Your daughter gets taught Gaelic?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who says that the SNP would be the government if Scotland gained independence? I certainly can't see it surviving in its present form.

 

 

The SNP would dissolve / split. The whole point of the party is independence, that achieved the members would move off to the other parties that better match their political ideals. I would imagine the first government of an independent Scotland would not include the SNP at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Where exactly does the word fail get typed in my post

okay, it doesn't have the word fail but you do suggest you have little faith in it. Can I ask again, what are the growth industries in the UK that you appear to be so confident in though?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The SNP would dissolve / split. The whole point of the party is independence, that achieved the members would move off to the other parties that better match their political ideals. I would imagine the first government of an independent Scotland would not include the SNP at all.

 

Salmond has said the snp would carry on after independence. An SNP hegemony for decades, ala Fine Fail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Salmond has said the snp would carry on after independence. An SNP hegemony for decades, ala Fine Fail.

 

 

Perhaps that is what Alex Salmond would like but I can't see that happening.

Link to post
Share on other sites
jambos are go!

You actually edited that? The NATO question will be answered at this years conference in Perth. Myself I think membership should be obtained, do not think Trident is value for money though. However very few UK defence contracts are.

Sorry this old godger struggles with these mobile gadgets. Whats your excuse for "Myself I think"?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Bonnie Prince Charlie

I am reliably informed by someone ITK in all maters Holyrood that Alec Salmond has been porking Joan McAlpine for some time now.

 

I do not want a man with judgement that poor to have anything to do with running the country.

 

 

pathetic troll post

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whereas you prefer Cameron to run your country :lol:

 

No i dont. But thats democracy for you. Tbh i'm of the opinion independence, or greater fiscal control, would benefit the Tories. Scotland's political discourse is disjointed and poorer as a result. 5 parties in holyrood and 4 align themselves on the left of the centre. Alec Douglas-Home and Teddy Taylor were both of the opinion that a fiscally responsible devolved parliament would be a big boost against the Nats. Look at an electoral map prior to the 2011 election, you can see yellow in the central-north east regions. Rural Scotland, compare the 2007 scottish parliament map to say 1979. The blue goes yellow. Also remember only 1 party has achieved 50% of the vote in Scotland, that being the Unionist Party of 1954 (fore runners to the Tories here). Had Murdo Fraser won the Scottish Tory election and pushed his ideas on the Tories would do better than they will under Davidson. There is an appetite for a centre right party here. Not me personally, but Salmonds soft talk on business and tax is a sign he knows this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No i dont. But thats democracy for you. Tbh i'm of the opinion independence, or greater fiscal control, would benefit the Tories. Scotland's political discourse is disjointed and poorer as a result. 5 parties in holyrood and 4 align themselves on the left of the centre. Alec Douglas-Home and Teddy Taylor were both of the opinion that a fiscally responsible devolved parliament would be a big boost against the Nats. Look at an electoral map prior to the 2011 election, you can see yellow in the central-north east regions. Rural Scotland, compare the 2007 scottish parliament map to say 1979. The blue goes yellow. Also remember only 1 party has achieved 50% of the vote in Scotland, that being the Unionist Party of 1954 (fore runners to the Tories here). Had Murdo Fraser won the Scottish Tory election and pushed his ideas on the Tories would do better than they will under Davidson. There is an appetite for a centre right party here. Not me personally, but Salmonds soft talk on business and tax is a sign he knows this.

I'm not sure what your stance is here mate? I'll stab a dark thing into you think Scotland is potentially more tory than the tories? Yes potentially it is. Will you give it its potential?

 

So you don't want Cameron as your next PM but you think Scotland is not capable of voting for a PM on its own.

 

Can anyone tell me why I should not vote for independence because in my own thoughts there is no reason. What does England offer me and my children? Very little.

Why should I vote to remain in a union that is bankrupt and offers very little to it's far flung people? What industries does the UK have that is going forwards and why should I be part of a union that is spending more than it gets in only to benefit the SE of England?

 

Just explain to me why I should vote to remain in this bankrupt nonsense in the way of facts and figures that it will succeed? Fed up listening to how Scotland will fail but hear nothing about how the UK will succeed.

Scotland will export more than it imports. This will allow its population to have a larger income than it has already.

Link to post
Share on other sites
jambos are go!

I'm not sure what your stance is here mate? I'll stab a dark thing into you think Scotland is potentially more tory than the tories? Yes potentially it is. Will you give it its potential?

 

 

So you don't want Cameron as your next PM but you think Scotland is not capable of voting for a PM on its own.

 

 

 

Can anyone tell me why I should not vote for independence because in my own thoughts there is no reason. What does England offer me and my children? Very little.

Why should I vote to remain in a union that is bankrupt and offers very little to it's far flung people? What industries does the UK have that is going forwards and why should I be part of a union that is spending more than it gets in only to benefit the SE of England?

 

 

Just explain to me why I should vote to remain in this bankrupt nonsense in the way of facts and figures that it will succeed? Fed up listening to how Scotland will fail but hear nothing about how the UK will succeed.

Scotland will export more than it imports. This will allow its population to have a larger income than it has already.

You are perfectly entitled to vote for independence for whatever reason you chose. Similarly others have the right to vote for the Union for whatever reason they chose. And neither side has to justify it to the other if they dont want to

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what your stance is here mate? I'll stab a dark thing into you think Scotland is potentially more tory than the tories? Yes potentially it is. Will you give it its potential?

 

So you don't want Cameron as your next PM but you think Scotland is not capable of voting for a PM on its own.

 

Can anyone tell me why I should not vote for independence because in my own thoughts there is no reason. What does England offer me and my children? Very little.

Why should I vote to remain in a union that is bankrupt and offers very little to it's far flung people? What industries does the UK have that is going forwards and why should I be part of a union that is spending more than it gets in only to benefit the SE of England?

 

Just explain to me why I should vote to remain in this bankrupt nonsense in the way of facts and figures that it will succeed? Fed up listening to how Scotland will fail but hear nothing about how the UK will succeed.

Scotland will export more than it imports. This will allow its population to have a larger income than it has already.

 

I dont think Scotland will fail if we go independent. I equally dont think we arent living up to our potential by beimg in the UK. How will we export more? We keep getting told spending will rise, but i've yet to be told how itd be financed. The Union is highly integrated on all levels and areas, its made Scotland the nation she is and we have forged the Union we have today. I see no reason to leave it. A stronger parliament i'd like to see but i dont really see the idea many do that the arrival of independence will make Scotland a land of milk and honey.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's just it. No Unionist has given a sound reason for maintaining the Union - especially when we're in another recession and the Union hasn't saved us. The UK debt is something like ?900billion - an eyewatering amount especially when compared to the wealth in Norway and Finland. Even Iceland and Ireland are more prosperous than the UK.

 

So, aye, why not?

 

The recession is exactly one reason for maintaining the union, in the wake of the McLelland Report into Public Sector Spending which recommends joined up and collaborative procurement, the scottish public sector has seen huge savings made availiable through collaborative contracts. These are mandated to be available to all UK public sector bodies and scotland has taken full advantage of these contracts which leverage the UK's buying power where as an independent nation with only 5% of the Uk spend we would have been facing far higher pricing levels!

Link to post
Share on other sites

The recession is exactly one reason for maintaining the union, in the wake of the McLelland Report into Public Sector Spending which recommends joined up and collaborative procurement, the scottish public sector has seen huge savings made availiable through collaborative contracts. These are mandated to be available to all UK public sector bodies and scotland has taken full advantage of these contracts which leverage the UK's buying power where as an independent nation with only 5% of the Uk spend we would have been facing far higher pricing levels!

 

Does this mean that we can't collaborate with other nations either within the EU or outwith?

 

Does it mean that the UK is more prosperous than Ireland, Denmark, Norway, New Zealand or even Iceland? No. They're all doing better than we are. Check the Legatum Prosperity Index for more on that.

 

Maybe the crazy right-wing ethos followed by London govts has just maintained the boom-bust cycle of economics. At the very least we couldn't do worse. I'm all for a new start.

Edited by Alba gu Brath
Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this mean that we can't collaborate with other nations either within the EU or outwith?

 

In a word yes, you can't see a Greek stationary company bidding on a contract to supply Greece & Scotland can you?

 

Likewise many UK companies don't have the logistics to supply to both the UK and the rest of mainland europe!

 

As for collaborating out with the EU? You really think that could work?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Your daughter gets taught Gaelic?

They get taught about one maybe two hours a week at Balgreen ..........the teacher thinks she's doing well but she doesn't know my brother in law is from stornaway and he speaks gaelic so any homework questions he gets a call lol

Link to post
Share on other sites

As things stand it would seem that there is either going to need to be a step change in support for independence - and hard to see an event/policy which would provide that step change - or an ongoing gradual increase in the 'popularity' of independence.

 

The apathy shown on Saturday amongst the vast majority of the population for the independence march suggests that a step change is a long way away at least.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As things stand it would seem that there is either going to need to be a step change in support for independence - and hard to see an event/policy which would provide that step change - or an ongoing gradual increase in the 'popularity' of independence.

 

The apathy shown on Saturday amongst the vast majority of the population for the independence march suggests that a step change is a long way away at least.

 

 

It is yes, 2yrs away.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What a rubbish turn out and it must be very embarrassing for the pro independence mob.

 

Better Together.

 

I was there and enjoyed it - i was not embarrassed by the turn out in any way and i certainly don't think Better Together,

 

As for turn out, people will go if they want - think about what you have said when you see attendance for Hearts v Livingston,

 

Does that mean Hearts have only 5,000 supporters - Remember cup final day !!!!!

 

Day of Referendum will show how many people want Independence and cheer up - you suppose to be " Happy Hearts " :whistling:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I read last week that the President of the EU stated that Scotland, if independent, would have to apply for membership of the EU. As all new members have to adopt the Euro, how does this fit with the claim that we will keep Sterling as our currency?

Unfortunately there is no debate about the important things and far too much bluster and soundbites.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Folk need to remember its early days. With 2yrs until the referendum the big questions will not be answered now. Campaigning will step up a gear next year and again the year after. There will be debates on all 2014 and a large push come that summer to swing the voters in the direction of Yes. And after a triumphant Commonwealth Games we will move forward as a country and claim our independence.

 

Then with the help of my flying monkey death squads I will assume command, run this country with an iron fist and the moderators of this forum will feel swift but absolute justice for any post of mine that has been deleted in the past.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing crazy about it. Water is a commodity, and every commodity has a value attached. If global warming does occur, and this results in lower rainfall in the south then a rain soaked north could be where they get their supplies from and why should those supplies be free?

 

Oddly enough I grew up in a place that actually sold sand to the Arabs. They used it in a desalination facility. So yes, that does happen too.

 

No it is pretty crazy actually and worrying this stuff gets peddled.

 

There are droughts all over Scotland we don't have enough water for this country never mind to export. Water loss is mainly down to infrastructure as opposed to rainfall.

 

Also, considering geography, global warming will impact the whole of the Uk pretty similary.

 

Whilst the infrastructure cost to pull something like that off is cost prohibitive.

 

So in short it's crazy. This is what pisses me off people come up with pie in the sky arguments to try and persuade one way of the other.

 

I'm open to persuasion but its needs to be hard evidence as opposed to emotive arguments based on little else than personal belief.

 

Not saying change couldn't be for the better but that belief would need to be based on something. At the moment I see no real argument coming from any side.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No it is pretty crazy actually and worrying this stuff gets peddled.

 

There are droughts all over Scotland we don't have enough water for this country never mind to export. Water loss is mainly down to infrastructure as opposed to rainfall.

 

Also, considering geography, global warming will impact the whole of the Uk pretty similary.

 

Whilst the infrastructure cost to pull something like that off is cost prohibitive.

 

So in short it's crazy. This is what pisses me off people come up with pie in the sky arguments to try and persuade one way of the other.

 

I'm open to persuasion but its needs to be hard evidence as opposed to emotive arguments based on little else than personal belief.

 

Not saying change couldn't be for the better but that belief would need to be based on something. At the moment I see no real argument coming from any side.

 

Apparently not as pie in the sky as you think:-

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17314545

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Independence march

 

:facepalm:

 

There will be more people going to Tynie tonight ffs than turned up to demonstrate.

 

Despise the lot of them.

Edited by i8hibsh
Link to post
Share on other sites

The Independence march

 

:facepalm:

 

There will be more people going to Tynie tonight ffs than turned up to demonstrate.

 

Despise the lot of them.

 

 

Demonstrate? Not so much. Show support? Yes. Maybe more at the game now, but 2yrs from now? Not a chance.

 

And I'm sure they all love you too. Diddums.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Demonstrate? Not so much. Show support? Yes. Maybe more at the game now, but 2yrs from now? Not a chance.

 

And I'm sure they all love you too. Diddums.

 

 

2 years hahahahahahaha.

 

So the independence movement has not really gained a huge deal of extra support in 300 years and you think it is suddenly going to change?

 

You'll get your vote all the same tho so bash on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 years hahahahahahaha.

 

So the independence movement has not really gained a huge deal of extra support in 300 years and you think it is suddenly going to change?

 

You'll get your vote all the same tho so bash on.

 

 

Let me see. SNP were a fringe party and now in total control of the government. We went from nothing to devolution to a referendum. A yes vote leading to independence just a question away. And you think no progress? I would say the opposite.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me see. SNP were a fringe party and now in total control of the government. We went from nothing to devolution to a referendum. A yes vote leading to independence just a question away. And you think no progress? I would say the opposite.

 

 

How many times can I have this argument on this forum.

 

The SNP are now the majority party in a provincial government. This was due to apathy. People just didn?t care about it (this showed in the voting turnout). Basically it was the Nats that cared most about it, so they all (to a man) turned up to vote.

 

In the General Election of 2010 (the one that all of Scotland care about) the SNP had their referendum. Scotland voted and it did not look good for the SNP. Infact only a few hundred thousand more voted SNP than Tory.

 

Face the facts and stop wasting our ******* time please, you lot are starting to shame the nation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hope there's a unionist mass exodus to Ingerlund when Scotland is independant. Would please me greatly.

 

 

Is that because you feel you will have more right to the land?

 

Typical Nationalist, you think that you are more Scottish.

 

No-one is more Scottish than I am fella.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Arnold Rothstein

I really hope there's a unionist mass exodus to Ingerlund when Scotland is independant. Would please me greatly.

 

Scotland would be in a bit of trouble as that would mean anyone with half a brain would be gone, leaving Scotland to be run by a bunch of halfwits.

 

Anyway it's not going to happen. Close the thread :teehee:

Edited by Mr Shakey-Hand Man
Link to post
Share on other sites

Scotland would be in a bit of trouble as that would mean anyone with half a brain would be gone leaving Scotland to be run by a bunch of halfwits.

 

 

113048-snp-cabinet-party-was-neck-and-neck-with-labour-before-may-election.jpg

 

Running us in to the ground.

Edited by 2NaFish
Link to post
Share on other sites

Scotland would be in a bit of trouble as that would mean anyone with half a brain would be gone, leaving Scotland to be run by a bunch of halfwits.

 

Correct :verysmug:

Link to post
Share on other sites
dobmisterdobster

I'm sick of Westminster. The revolving door of mediocrity.

Cameron on his way out, Miliband on his way in.

 

Nothing is going to change. All they care about is fiddling their expenses.

For all our resident Labour sycophants who are going to give me a wall of text, swearing how Ed is going to be different from the others.

Don't bother.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sick of Westminster. The revolving door of mediocrity.

Cameron on his way out, Miliband on his way in.

 

Nothing is going to change. All they care about is fiddling their expenses.

For all our resident Labour sycophants who are going to give me a wall of text, swearing how Ed is going to be different from the others.

Don't bother.

 

 

If Westminster is mediocre what on earth in Holyrood?! Have you seen the state of our MSPs?

 

I loath the SNP but they have the most talented politician at Holyrood in Swinney.

 

The Nats have 2 years to swing 20 odd % points. Support for Independence has been at 25-35% for decades. I do not see how they are going to affect a mammoth change in opinion in the next 2 years.

Link to post
Share on other sites
jambos are go!

Let me see. SNP were a fringe party and now in total control of the government. We went from nothing to devolution to a referendum. A yes vote leading to independence just a question away. And you think no progress? I would say the opposite.

Labour gave Scotland devolution not the SNP. John Smith declared it "unfinished business" when the SNP was in the political wilderness. Labour delivered it for the better governance of Scotland not independence.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How many times can I have this argument on this forum.

 

The SNP are now the majority party in a provincial government. This was due to apathy. People just didn?t care about it (this showed in the voting turnout). Basically it was the Nats that cared most about it, so they all (to a man) turned up to vote.

 

In the General Election of 2010 (the one that all of Scotland care about) the SNP had their referendum. Scotland voted and it did not look good for the SNP. Infact only a few hundred thousand more voted SNP than Tory.

 

Face the facts and stop wasting our ******* time please, you lot are starting to shame the nation.

 

 

 

Ah ha ha, bitter much? Get it roond yeh! :thumbsup:

Link to post
Share on other sites
jambos are go!

113048-snp-cabinet-party-was-neck-and-neck-with-labour-before-may-election.jpg

 

Running us in to the ground.

All the other parties are offering fresh faces and the SNP the same old faces led by the Gang of Four. Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney with MacKaskill trying to keep his head down at the back as usual.Yesterdays politics from yesterdays politicians. Roll on the referendum.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Labour gave Scotland devolution not the SNP. John Smith declared it "unfinished business" when the SNP was in the political wilderness. Labour delivered it for the better governance of Scotland not independence.

 

 

 

Ooopsy eh? Another Labour triumph :whistling: In fairness I think the loss of Smith was great. Can only imagine the Labour party being a hell of a lot better with Smith in charge and not Blair. Sad day when he died.

Link to post
Share on other sites

All the other parties are offering fresh faces and the SNP the same old faces led by the Gang of Four. Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney with MacKaskill trying to keep his head down at the back as usual.Yesterdays politics from yesterdays politicians. Roll on the referendum.

 

 

 

All those new faces in Scottish Labour though. Who are they again? Can't quite remember any names? :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...