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MacDonald Jardine

The James Connolly Society is a group looking to unify Ireland. Is it directly linked with terrorism? With branches in Scotland, Ireland, Canada, USA...all terrorists? It would seem rather unlikely.

 

It would appear on this basis however, anybody and any country that chose to remove itself from British colonial rule were in fact terrorists....USA, Canada, Australia, India, and many, many more besides.

 

Wallace monument? Obviously a totem to terrorism. Aye, right yeh are.

 

Not this again.

What options were open to Wallace at the time? Mediaeval Scotland and England weren't exactly enlightened countries with a fair democratic process.

It's not quite the same as Ireland in the 70s / 80s.

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Exactly this!   I was thinking about the naysayers and then thought about WHY a movement would want to lead a nation into independence which would ultimately lead to financial ruin, expulsion from c

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Not this again.

What options were open to Wallace at the time? Mediaeval Scotland and England weren't exactly enlightened countries with a fair democratic process.

It's not quite the same as Ireland in the 70s / 80s.

 

 

What options were open to Connolly 100 years ago?

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MacDonald Jardine

What options were open to Connolly 100 years ago?

 

There was a democratic process of sorts. I was concentrating on the modern Provos/ INLA who tend to be admired by that group.

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There was a democratic process of sorts. I was concentrating on the modern Provos/ INLA who tend to be admired by that group.

 

SNP know what they are doing. They want to win the Labour votes from the tims in the west. It is going to backfire.

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These people are terrorist supporters, I can't believe it's even up for debate :lol:

 

In fact a quick scan of their website reveals that they are supporting an ETA terrorist currently being held in Edinburgh awaiting extradition. Big surprise :yucky:

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There was a democratic process of sorts. I was concentrating on the modern Provos/ INLA who tend to be admired by that group.

 

 

Love it. The James Connolly Society is being discussed yet you choose to ignore the period in question and instead focus on a period more suited to you argument. You should be a politician ;)

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These people are terrorist supporters, I can't believe it's even up for debate :lol:

 

In fact a quick scan of their website reveals that they are supporting an ETA terrorist currently being held in Edinburgh awaiting extradition. Big surprise :yucky:

 

 

 

Answer me this. How do you think the older generations of Irish perceive the British? How do Catholics in Ireland view the IRA? How do Protestants view the UDF? Catalonians and ETA? What about pro-democracy movements in China, because the do not agree with the state they should be jailed or worse?

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Anyway, we do seem to be getting pulled into the standard unionist trap of negativity and fear. Few positive arguments for the union as per usual, just doom and gloom and armageddon stuff if we dare to think of ourselves as a people who could govern their own destiny and carve a place in this world.

 

Scots helped build the world afterall, no reason why the Scottish people do not have the capability of mind and spirit to decide how their lives should be lead and their country run.

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Anyway, we do seem to be getting pulled into the standard unionist trap of negativity and fear. Few positive arguments for the union as per usual, just doom and gloom and armageddon stuff if we dare to think of ourselves as a people who could govern their own destiny and carve a place in this world.

 

Scots helped build the world afterall, no reason why the Scottish people do not have the capability of mind and spirit to decide how their lives should be lead and their country run.

 

 

I've not seen much from you on a positive note either.

One of your earlier posts had a quotation about investing our way out instead of austeity. Where is the money coming from for that?

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My issue with arguing for and against all this independence/unionism stuff is that its totally circular and due to the state of Scottish politics being centred around Salmond and his ego, means it becomes a total personality contest.

 

In the yellow corner, wearing the saltire pants, is Salmond. He condescends the unionists by calling them 'Tory stooges' or 'sympathisers of the Coalition'. He claims there is a mutual political embrace between Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Tories to 'hold Scotland back'. I am a Labour supporter (awaits the pelters), who is dissapointed bitterly in how inept and weak Scottish Labour is. I believe in the union but I have no truck with the Tories or what they want to do in terms of the economy. But am willing to work across the political spectrum to maintain, what I believe to be, the greatest asset Scotland has, which is a mutual partnership with 3 fellow, like minded nations with common culture and institutions, yet the flexibility of devolution. I have no desire to hold my nation back. None. That is a nonsense.

 

Salmond and Swinney are in a dreamland to me. They're position changes to match who they feel is a great example. It was Norway from the 1970s to 1990s, then Ireland, now Norway again. They seem to believe the EU is what it was in 1979, a non-integrated free trade union. Which its no longer. Its a loose, almost confederal in the eurozone, political union of nation states, which is still remodelling itself for the 21st century with more integration mentioned. The idea therefore that we can be a Norway is a fallacy. Norway is not restricted by common-energy policies of the EU on its oil and gas reserves. Scotland would find it very hard to set up a trust fund ala Norway in the EU. On top of that you couldn't nationalise it either. The other idea of Scotland being better off having been independent is like me saying if I had turn left rather than right last night I may have got a pull. Its myth. We may well have been, but based on European political trends from the late 1980s on, even in the centre left, it is likely the light regulation, low taxation, high levels of unsustained borrowing would have been repeated in Scotland. In fact up till 2008 Salmond called for Scotland, and the wider UK, to follow Ireland's lead and go FURTHER on light touch regulation of banking assets. It's therefore almost certainly had we been 'Free by 93' and run our own affairs we'd have been as goosed as Ireland. Not as wealthy as Norway.

 

There are still 2 years of this. Polls will fluctuate and marches will be had. But it doesn't change the actualities of the question 'what will independence do for the average working man in the street?' The real issues of the day aren't necessarily some etonian clique of a omnishambolic government, which to the SNP, want to hold Scotland back and make her a subservient drain on Treasury finances (ask yourself this, if the we were being put down we'd be arguably more deprived and poorer and totally dependent, in that case the UK treasury would punt us, they aren't, we aren't being held back), but are about energy firms hiking their prices up and up with no accountability, about railways and roads being left to degrade, about transport companies raising fares, petrol going up and commodities too. The power of FTSE100 companies and the stock exchange is the real pressing issue, and small nations, as we see across the globe, have no power to alter that. The UK is a big enough nation to begin, collectively, challenging this. I do not think that independence will alter this or improve the average working wage, the average benefit or the wellbeing of the normal man in the street. It won't. It's a lie to say so.

 

If you look at the party likely to gain from independence, the SNP, they have no policies here. They have platitudes and soundbites, but no policy. Their MPs avoid these debates, in recent weeks the Infrastructure Bill was brought to Westminster, billions in funding for 'shovel ready projects', where were the SNP? No where to be seen. No Stewart Hosie, or Angus Robertson, Eilidh Whiteford, Pete Wishart, McNeil, all absent. So what makes you think that they'll suddenly become more pro-society and collectivist in an independent Scotland? They'll be in charge if we do go indepdent, they are all pro-business, all want low corporation tax and low business rates, they won't make big changes now or after independence. It suits them to be centre-left sounding in Scotland. Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson wanted the SNP to be politically neutral and expelled Salmond as a result in the 1980s. It is the main issue and failure of Scottish politics and why nothing gets done. The divide in our system and society is not of ideas and positions, its of national character, and whether you are Pro-Independence or Pro-Union, and if you're the latter you are a Quisling traitor who wants to do Scotland down. It's no good. It can't continue.

 

2014 will be a relief for me personally. I've been put off Scottish politics for some time now. I'm more interested in the ideas coming out from Vince Cable and Ed Miliband on what the future of the UK's capitalist system should be. That is the politics which will affect us as the average voter. I care not for whether Alex Salmond or Joanne Lamont will represent us at the EU in 2017 or if it'll be Ed Miliband/David Cameron and their foreign ministers, I care more for what they'll do to make Britain and Scotland better. The politics of independece for me is the politics of status and table place names. It's a side show and needs lanced from our discussions politically for a while. Its why it needed voted on asap. It's not and we have pussy-footing politics on major structural issues of how Scotland will look and not challenging them for fear of alienating voters in the run up to the poll in 2014.

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My issue with arguing for and against all this independence/unionism stuff is that its totally circular and due to the state of Scottish politics being centred around Salmond and his ego, means it becomes a total personality contest.

 

In the yellow corner, wearing the saltire pants, is Salmond. He condescends the unionists by calling them 'Tory stooges' or 'sympathisers of the Coalition'. He claims there is a mutual political embrace between Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Tories to 'hold Scotland back'. I am a Labour supporter (awaits the pelters), who is dissapointed bitterly in how inept and weak Scottish Labour is. I believe in the union but I have no truck with the Tories or what they want to do in terms of the economy. But am willing to work across the political spectrum to maintain, what I believe to be, the greatest asset Scotland has, which is a mutual partnership with 3 fellow, like minded nations with common culture and institutions, yet the flexibility of devolution. I have no desire to hold my nation back. None. That is a nonsense.

 

Salmond and Swinney are in a dreamland to me. They're position changes to match who they feel is a great example. It was Norway from the 1970s to 1990s, then Ireland, now Norway again. They seem to believe the EU is what it was in 1979, a non-integrated free trade union. Which its no longer. Its a loose, almost confederal in the eurozone, political union of nation states, which is still remodelling itself for the 21st century with more integration mentioned. The idea therefore that we can be a Norway is a fallacy. Norway is not restricted by common-energy policies of the EU on its oil and gas reserves. Scotland would find it very hard to set up a trust fund ala Norway in the EU. On top of that you couldn't nationalise it either. The other idea of Scotland being better off having been independent is like me saying if I had turn left rather than right last night I may have got a pull. Its myth. We may well have been, but based on European political trends from the late 1980s on, even in the centre left, it is likely the light regulation, low taxation, high levels of unsustained borrowing would have been repeated in Scotland. In fact up till 2008 Salmond called for Scotland, and the wider UK, to follow Ireland's lead and go FURTHER on light touch regulation of banking assets. It's therefore almost certainly had we been 'Free by 93' and run our own affairs we'd have been as goosed as Ireland. Not as wealthy as Norway.

 

There are still 2 years of this. Polls will fluctuate and marches will be had. But it doesn't change the actualities of the question 'what will independence do for the average working man in the street?' The real issues of the day aren't necessarily some etonian clique of a omnishambolic government, which to the SNP, want to hold Scotland back and make her a subservient drain on Treasury finances (ask yourself this, if the we were being put down we'd be arguably more deprived and poorer and totally dependent, in that case the UK treasury would punt us, they aren't, we aren't being held back), but are about energy firms hiking their prices up and up with no accountability, about railways and roads being left to degrade, about transport companies raising fares, petrol going up and commodities too. The power of FTSE100 companies and the stock exchange is the real pressing issue, and small nations, as we see across the globe, have no power to alter that. The UK is a big enough nation to begin, collectively, challenging this. I do not think that independence will alter this or improve the average working wage, the average benefit or the wellbeing of the normal man in the street. It won't. It's a lie to say so.

 

If you look at the party likely to gain from independence, the SNP, they have no policies here. They have platitudes and soundbites, but no policy. Their MPs avoid these debates, in recent weeks the Infrastructure Bill was brought to Westminster, billions in funding for 'shovel ready projects', where were the SNP? No where to be seen. No Stewart Hosie, or Angus Robertson, Eilidh Whiteford, Pete Wishart, McNeil, all absent. So what makes you think that they'll suddenly become more pro-society and collectivist in an independent Scotland? They'll be in charge if we do go indepdent, they are all pro-business, all want low corporation tax and low business rates, they won't make big changes now or after independence. It suits them to be centre-left sounding in Scotland. Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson wanted the SNP to be politically neutral and expelled Salmond as a result in the 1980s. It is the main issue and failure of Scottish politics and why nothing gets done. The divide in our system and society is not of ideas and positions, its of national character, and whether you are Pro-Independence or Pro-Union, and if you're the latter you are a Quisling traitor who wants to do Scotland down. It's no good. It can't continue.

 

2014 will be a relief for me personally. I've been put off Scottish politics for some time now. I'm more interested in the ideas coming out from Vince Cable and Ed Miliband on what the future of the UK's capitalist system should be. That is the politics which will affect us as the average voter. I care not for whether Alex Salmond or Joanne Lamont will represent us at the EU in 2017 or if it'll be Ed Miliband/David Cameron and their foreign ministers, I care more for what they'll do to make Britain and Scotland better. The politics of independece for me is the politics of status and table place names. It's a side show and needs lanced from our discussions politically for a while. Its why it needed voted on asap. It's not and we have pussy-footing politics on major structural issues of how Scotland will look and not challenging them for fear of alienating voters in the run up to the poll in 2014.

take a bow :thumbsup:

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MacDonald Jardine

Answer me this. How do you think the older generations of Irish perceive the British? How do Catholics in Ireland view the IRA? How do Protestants view the UDF? Catalonians and ETA? What about pro-democracy movements in China, because the do not agree with the state they should be jailed or worse?

 

If they start blowing up innocent people I would be inclined to jail them.

 

I'm not convinced anything like a majority of either side in Ireland regard the paramilitary organisations with much affection.

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I've not seen much from you on a positive note either.

One of your earlier posts had a quotation about investing our way out instead of austeity. Where is the money coming from for that?

 

 

You will find out in due course. I believe this website is what you need to keep tabs on...

 

http://www.yesscotland.net/

 

...for me, lower corporation tax will allow me to reinvest more business profits to help expand, create more jobs and deliver new services. The tax paid overall will remain at similar levels to the past yet many more people will benefit.

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If they start blowing up innocent people I would be inclined to jail them.

 

I'm not convinced anything like a majority of either side in Ireland regard the paramilitary organisations with much affection.

 

 

 

So your perception is based on outside looking in, its different the other way round.

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MacDonald Jardine

So your perception is based on outside looking in, its different the other way round.

 

I'm not sure what that means. I've got family in Ireland and been there a number of times. I don't come across masses of people all misty eyed about the IRA/ UVF.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

That'll do me. Only way out of recession is capital project spending, job creation and a growing workforce. Couple that with lower corporation and income taxes? Have the north of England changing allegiances come Independence Day

 

:verysmug:

 

And Salmond plans to raise that money how? By selling sovereign debt? Oh wait, he can't because he is going to keep sterling!

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My issue with arguing for and against all this independence/unionism stuff is that its totally circular and due to the state of Scottish politics being centred around Salmond and his ego, means it becomes a total personality contest.

 

In the yellow corner, wearing the saltire pants, is Salmond. He condescends the unionists by calling them 'Tory stooges' or 'sympathisers of the Coalition'. He claims there is a mutual political embrace between Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Tories to 'hold Scotland back'. I am a Labour supporter (awaits the pelters), who is dissapointed bitterly in how inept and weak Scottish Labour is. I believe in the union but I have no truck with the Tories or what they want to do in terms of the economy. But am willing to work across the political spectrum to maintain, what I believe to be, the greatest asset Scotland has, which is a mutual partnership with 3 fellow, like minded nations with common culture and institutions, yet the flexibility of devolution. I have no desire to hold my nation back. None. That is a nonsense.

 

Salmond and Swinney are in a dreamland to me. They're position changes to match who they feel is a great example. It was Norway from the 1970s to 1990s, then Ireland, now Norway again. They seem to believe the EU is what it was in 1979, a non-integrated free trade union. Which its no longer. Its a loose, almost confederal in the eurozone, political union of nation states, which is still remodelling itself for the 21st century with more integration mentioned. The idea therefore that we can be a Norway is a fallacy. Norway is not restricted by common-energy policies of the EU on its oil and gas reserves. Scotland would find it very hard to set up a trust fund ala Norway in the EU. On top of that you couldn't nationalise it either. The other idea of Scotland being better off having been independent is like me saying if I had turn left rather than right last night I may have got a pull. Its myth. We may well have been, but based on European political trends from the late 1980s on, even in the centre left, it is likely the light regulation, low taxation, high levels of unsustained borrowing would have been repeated in Scotland. In fact up till 2008 Salmond called for Scotland, and the wider UK, to follow Ireland's lead and go FURTHER on light touch regulation of banking assets. It's therefore almost certainly had we been 'Free by 93' and run our own affairs we'd have been as goosed as Ireland. Not as wealthy as Norway.

 

There are still 2 years of this. Polls will fluctuate and marches will be had. But it doesn't change the actualities of the question 'what will independence do for the average working man in the street?' The real issues of the day aren't necessarily some etonian clique of a omnishambolic government, which to the SNP, want to hold Scotland back and make her a subservient drain on Treasury finances (ask yourself this, if the we were being put down we'd be arguably more deprived and poorer and totally dependent, in that case the UK treasury would punt us, they aren't, we aren't being held back), but are about energy firms hiking their prices up and up with no accountability, about railways and roads being left to degrade, about transport companies raising fares, petrol going up and commodities too. The power of FTSE100 companies and the stock exchange is the real pressing issue, and small nations, as we see across the globe, have no power to alter that. The UK is a big enough nation to begin, collectively, challenging this. I do not think that independence will alter this or improve the average working wage, the average benefit or the wellbeing of the normal man in the street. It won't. It's a lie to say so.

 

If you look at the party likely to gain from independence, the SNP, they have no policies here. They have platitudes and soundbites, but no policy. Their MPs avoid these debates, in recent weeks the Infrastructure Bill was brought to Westminster, billions in funding for 'shovel ready projects', where were the SNP? No where to be seen. No Stewart Hosie, or Angus Robertson, Eilidh Whiteford, Pete Wishart, McNeil, all absent. So what makes you think that they'll suddenly become more pro-society and collectivist in an independent Scotland? They'll be in charge if we do go indepdent, they are all pro-business, all want low corporation tax and low business rates, they won't make big changes now or after independence. It suits them to be centre-left sounding in Scotland. Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson wanted the SNP to be politically neutral and expelled Salmond as a result in the 1980s. It is the main issue and failure of Scottish politics and why nothing gets done. The divide in our system and society is not of ideas and positions, its of national character, and whether you are Pro-Independence or Pro-Union, and if you're the latter you are a Quisling traitor who wants to do Scotland down. It's no good. It can't continue.

 

2014 will be a relief for me personally. I've been put off Scottish politics for some time now. I'm more interested in the ideas coming out from Vince Cable and Ed Miliband on what the future of the UK's capitalist system should be. That is the politics which will affect us as the average voter. I care not for whether Alex Salmond or Joanne Lamont will represent us at the EU in 2017 or if it'll be Ed Miliband/David Cameron and their foreign ministers, I care more for what they'll do to make Britain and Scotland better. The politics of independece for me is the politics of status and table place names. It's a side show and needs lanced from our discussions politically for a while. Its why it needed voted on asap. It's not and we have pussy-footing politics on major structural issues of how Scotland will look and not challenging them for fear of alienating voters in the run up to the poll in 2014.

 

You could argue that all politicians are in it for the status or at least they end up that way. The politics of independence for me is about being able to choose a path different from that of the UK and to be able to make your own way, for better or worse.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

I'm not sure what that means. I've got family in Ireland and been there a number of times. I don't come across masses of people all misty eyed about the IRA/ UVF.

 

Correct. They are scum, pure and simple.

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Know what will be a sight? The border the day after Independence. Seeing thousands of negative roasters who hold this country back getting the **** out of there so another people can continue to wipe their soiled backsides for them. Tear to a glass eye material, likes.

 

:glorious:

 

:lol: Brilliant post.

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You could argue that all politicians are in it for the status or at least they end up that way. The politics of independence for me is about being able to choose a path different from that of the UK and to be able to make your own way, for better or worse.

 

We can do that within the union with devolution. Scotland has chosen a different path on health, education and we are amending welfare to suit Scotland. We can be a better nation within the Union. Independence and the Union are both means to ends. Independence will not be a cure for our ills, nor will the Union, but the Union provides us the strong base on which to develop.

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You will find out in due course. I believe this website is what you need to keep tabs on...

 

http://www.yesscotland.net/

 

...for me, lower corporation tax will allow me to reinvest more business profits to help expand, create more jobs and deliver new services. The tax paid overall will remain at similar levels to the past yet many more people will benefit.

das Root help me out here as I`ll freely admit to not being fully aware of corporation tax and tax in general (I leave that to my accountant)

 

Scotland has voted and has decided to go it alone what will happen to the tax that was being generated -as it is at present- if say a high rate tax payer who employs 10 to 20 people in a business in Edinburgh decided to say sod this I can pay a lower tax living in England (just south of the border)and commute to work either by train or car given the short distance from Edinburgh to the borders?

 

if the snp decided to raise some sort of tax to cover this surely all that would happen would be 1 or 2 workers being laid off to cover it resulting in extra pressure on the nation in unemployment costs

 

my biggest concern for independence -and I`m prepaired to listen to the pro independence voters in telling me how wrong I`am- is how can we afford independence

 

and before its posted there has to be more than OIL

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What devolution? Stamp duty?

 

Health, Education, Culture, Transport, Infrastructure, Child Care, Justice, Early Years Education, Care Services, Employment, Enterprise & the economy (limited yes but internal investment mechanisms mean Scotland can set up a Business Bank if it wished), Local Government services and finances....massive areas for policy changes.

 

Ia agree devolution needs improved. I favour the Devo-Plus approach to devolution My link. I think we could also see Housing benefit devolved to meet Scotlands unique housing needs and problems and have the 'equity' to amend the implementation of policies, ie the ability to streamline job seekers in Scotland. You can promote the living wage through procurement and not legislation (as an example, see Wales and its Welsh Assembly Government). Devolution is a great system. Just needs amending and slight tweeks.

 

Edit; On Devo-plus i would not devolve Corporation Tax. I do think that'd be a race to the bottom and I think if we go independent the rUK and Scotland would enter into a Corp Tax agreement to stop the North of England become even worse of economically. Look to Northern Ireland and the Republic for that clash. Plus the EU is pushing for harmonising Corp Tax so rates are closer than near 0% in the Baltic States and 30%+ (say) in western Europe.

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das Root help me out here as I`ll freely admit to not being fully aware of corporation tax and tax in general (I leave that to my accountant)

 

Scotland has voted and has decided to go it alone what will happen to the tax that was being generated -as it is at present- if say a high rate tax payer who employs 10 to 20 people in a business in Edinburgh decided to say sod this I can pay a lower tax living in England (just south of the border)and commute to work either by train or car given the short distance from Edinburgh to the borders?

 

if the snp decided to raise some sort of tax to cover this surely all that would happen would be 1 or 2 workers being laid off to cover it resulting in extra pressure on the nation in unemployment costs

 

my biggest concern for independence -and I`m prepaired to listen to the pro independence voters in telling me how wrong I`am- is how can we afford independence

 

and before its posted there has to be more than OIL

 

 

Given an independent Scotland will have lower tax rates wouldn't it be the other way round?

 

Oil yes, but whisky, textiles, tourism, renewable energy, technology...all viable industries.

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Given an independent Scotland will have lower tax rates wouldn't it be the other way round?

 

Oil yes, but whisky, textiles, tourism, renewable energy, technology...all viable industries.

You have no idea what an a independent Scotland would do with tax rates. It would depend entirely on who won the first independent election.

 

It could be lower, it could be higher.

 

Short term I can only see taxes rise as we will have a lot of transitional expense. In any event - support for Independence is not increasing and I cannot see the Nats getting the 20+ shift in the polls that they need.

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You have no idea what an a independent Scotland would do with tax rates. It would depend entirely on who won the first independent election.

 

It could be lower, it could be higher.

 

Short term I can only see taxes rise as we will have a lot of transitional expense. In any event - support for Independence is not increasing and I cannot see the Nats getting the 20+ shift in the polls that they need.

 

 

Surely your ITK mate knows all the policies of an independent Scotland already?

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Given an independent Scotland will have lower tax rates wouldn't it be the other way round?

 

Oil yes, but whisky, textiles, tourism, renewable energy, technology...all viable industries.

the oil will run out and its now being found only in areas that are harder to extract it from

 

renewable energy still has a long way to go to convince many people due to its cost

 

tourism will only work when people have the money to spend on travel not many have that just now

 

technology dont know much about it so i will accept that one

 

whisky oh the irony and hypocracy of that one :woot: this is a government that wants minimum charging to reduce alcohol intake yet it wants the rest of the world to drink us rich :whistling:

 

still not heard enough to change my view

 

unless we can get vehicles and machinery to run on water then we can be the richest country in the world :whistling:

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I would only be speculating, you've got the facts surely?

No. That is the point. Nobody can say what an independent Scotland would look like at all.

 

Independence is a complete unknown. We'd have to start with whatever 'settlement' we could negotiate with Westminster.

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the oil will run out and its now being found only in areas that are harder to extract it from

 

renewable energy still has a long way to go to convince many people due to its cost

 

tourism will only work when people have the money to spend on travel not many have that just now

 

technology dont know much about it so i will accept that one

 

whisky oh the irony and hypocracy of that one :woot: this is a government that wants minimum charging to reduce alcohol intake yet it wants the rest of the world to drink us rich :whistling:

 

still not heard enough to change my view

 

unless we can get vehicles and machinery to run on water then we can be the richest country in the world :whistling:

 

 

Hydrogen powered engines you say? Well absolutely. Selling our excess water to a parched England, especially the south, another revenue stream if you pardon the pun.

 

Whisky exports, not getting pished on cheap cider. Entirely different things.

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No. That is the point. Nobody can say what an independent Scotland would look like at all.

 

Independence is a complete unknown. We'd have to start with whatever 'settlement' we could negotiate with Westminster.

 

But you can say with absolute certainty that Salmond and McAlpine are getting jiggy with it? Ok then.

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das Root help me out here as I`ll freely admit to not being fully aware of corporation tax and tax in general (I leave that to my accountant)

 

Scotland has voted and has decided to go it alone what will happen to the tax that was being generated -as it is at present- if say a high rate tax payer who employs 10 to 20 people in a business in Edinburgh decided to say sod this I can pay a lower tax living in England (just south of the border)and commute to work either by train or car given the short distance from Edinburgh to the borders?

 

if the snp decided to raise some sort of tax to cover this surely all that would happen would be 1 or 2 workers being laid off to cover it resulting in extra pressure on the nation in unemployment costs

 

my biggest concern for independence -and I`m prepaired to listen to the pro independence voters in telling me how wrong I`am- is how can we afford independence

 

and before its posted there has to be more than OIL

I'm pretty sure you would only have to register your company in England to pay your "lower" rate of tax. Just like the independence scaremongerers who say that Scotland doesn't raise enough taxes don't take into account the taxes raised by workers in Scotland working for english companies. The real "danger" is that Scotland have a lower rate of tax and lots of English companies choose to register their company in Scotland.

 

Everyone seems to look at Scotlands potential finances and say that currently they couldn't survive. Has anyone looked at the amount the UK has to borrow each year? Has anyone looked at Englands finances? I'm sure they would be alarmed.

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the oil will run out and its now being found only in areas that are harder to extract it from

 

renewable energy still has a long way to go to convince many people due to its cost

 

tourism will only work when people have the money to spend on travel not many have that just now

 

technology dont know much about it so i will accept that one

 

whisky oh the irony and hypocracy of that one :woot: this is a government that wants minimum charging to reduce alcohol intake yet it wants the rest of the world to drink us rich :whistling:

 

still not heard enough to change my view

 

unless we can get vehicles and machinery to run on water then we can be the richest country in the world :whistling:

 

Since you seem to know a lot about how Scotland's industries will fail. Can you please explain to me how UK industries will succeed and what ones they are?

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I'm pretty sure you would only have to register your company in England to pay your "lower" rate of tax. Just like the independence scaremongerers who say that Scotland doesn't raise enough taxes don't take into account the taxes raised by workers in Scotland working for english companies. The real "danger" is that Scotland have a lower rate of tax and lots of English companies choose to register their company in Scotland.

 

Everyone seems to look at Scotlands potential finances and say that currently they couldn't survive. Has anyone looked at the amount the UK has to borrow each year? Has anyone looked at Englands finances? I'm sure they would be alarmed.

 

We'd all lose out if the union was to break up. We are as important to them as they are to us.

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We'd all lose out if the union was to break up. We are as important to them as they are to us.

 

I don't think that's the case TBH. The UK runs a very fickle economic policy that survives on foreign investment. Most of this investment goes to the South East of England and to balance the high wages and higher cost of living in the south east, they need the provinces to be poorer.

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Hydrogen powered engines you say? Well absolutely. Selling our excess water to a parched England, especially the south, another revenue stream if you pardon the pun.

 

Whisky exports, not getting pished on cheap cider. Entirely different things.

Of course Scotland can flourish out with the Union, but it won't if Salmond comes up with crazy ideas like this. Selling sand to the Arabs springs to mind.

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Every single independent poll has shown the majority do NOT want independence,

hence the reason Salmond wants 16/17 years olds to be able to vote on it.

 

The only way the tartan flagwavers will get their way is............APATHY

 

Too many will think they don't need to vote due to the vast majority wanting to keep the union.

 

Wrong! be sure to vote, because you can be as sure as sh** smells, every single one of the pro independence crowd will vote

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jambos are go!

You'll have to show me the numbers re remaining UK forces against any Scottish military as I don't have them, do you have link?

 

SNP policy is to withdraw from NATO but that might change. Anyway, as I keep mentioning there is no guarantee that the SNP would remain as a viable party and/or be in power post any independence

 

These numbers are difficult to pin down I must concede particularly with UK forces deployed across the UK with Scottish Forces based in England and vice versa. Plus combined units based every where. But as a start I've dug out the overall figures for the K from this link;-

 

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0003.html

 

So are looking @ 176000 as total fighting forces which may still reduce with the cuts. Given a pro rata share that would be around 18,000. difficult to go further and that may increase when an entire brigade is planned to be moved here from Germany in a coule of years. I've dug out this long winded article which you may care to plough through and shows poiliticians of both sides saying nothing concrete. Amazed to find in my research that not only are the SNP considering staying in Nato but also backing down on Trident:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/01/how-would-an-independent-scotland-defend-itself

 

&

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/07/trident-faslane-scotland-snp-cost

 

The main reason I made my claim about UK forces exceeding Scottish forces was because folk on the other side were suggesting that Scotland would have virtually no military forces.

Edited by jambos are go!
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Of course Scotland can flourish out with the Union, but it won't if Salmond comes up with crazy ideas like this. Selling sand to the Arabs springs to mind.

 

 

Nothing crazy about it. Water is a commodity, and every commodity has a value attached. If global warming does occur, and this results in lower rainfall in the south then a rain soaked north could be where they get their supplies from and why should those supplies be free?

 

Oddly enough I grew up in a place that actually sold sand to the Arabs. They used it in a desalination facility. So yes, that does happen too.

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These numbers are difficult to pin down I must concede particularly with UK forces deployed across the UK with Scottish Forces based in England and vice versa. Plus combined units based every where. But as a start I've dug out the overall figures for the K from this link;-

 

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0003.html

 

So are looking @ 176000 as total fighting forces which may still reduce with the cuts. Given a pro rata share that would be around 18,000. difficult to go further and that may increase when an entire brigade is planned to be moved here from Germany in a coule of years. I've dug out this long winded article which you may care to plough through and shows poiliticians of both sides saying nothing concrete. Amazed to find in my research that not only are the SNP considering staying in Nato but also backing down on Trident:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/01/how-would-an-independent-scotland-defend-itself

 

&

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/07/trident-faslane-scotland-snp-cost

 

The main reason I made my claim about UK forces exceeding Scottish forces was because folk on the other side were suggesting that Scotland would have virtually no military forces.

 

The 18,000 you suggest seems a sensible starting point but it all depends what an independent Scotland woukd want its military to do. I doubt Scotland would need or want an expeditionary type military as favoured by the major UK parties but one that can defend it's borders and assets and contribute to UN/Nato missions so the number might be less. Personally, I would hope any independent Scotland would join NATO as I think it's a bit dubious of non NATO nations, like Ireland, to effectively get their protection on the cheap.

 

Trident and its successor is a thorny one as having another nations nucear weapons based on your soil is a major issue. I think the UK having its sole Nuclear base in a foreign country would also be a major dilemma for London.

 

Getting back to the original point, if there were 18,000 in a the Scottish forces then I doubt the UK would have anything like that number remaining in Scotland.

Edited by davemclaren
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Every single independent poll has shown the majority do NOT want independence,

hence the reason Salmond wants 16/17 years olds to be able to vote on it.

 

The only way the tartan flagwavers will get their way is............APATHY

 

Too many will think they don't need to vote due to the vast majority wanting to keep the union.

 

Wrong! be sure to vote, because you can be as sure as sh** smells, every single one of the pro independence crowd will vote

 

 

So you think 16/17 yr olds shouldn't have a say? They could be living in the country the next 70yrs but due to 1 or 2yrs cannot help shape its future? I went to uni aged 17, I sure as shit would want to vote on something this important back then.

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How many Westminster parties actually support devo plus?

 

Each party has membership of it. But it's not an official policy. As a basis for future reform its the logical next step for devolution. I reckon in the next year the Better Together campaign will have all 3 signed up to improve devolution if a NO vote wins, with a blueprint like this to suggest the next step. A pledge if you will like the Scottish Constitutional Convention of the 1980s/90s.

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Not adding anything to the debate - and apologies if it's been mentioned - but has anyone else noticed that the thread title actually says 'Indepence March' rather than '(I presume) 'Independence March'?

 

Or is it still going on...(i.e. without end, for those who need it explained) :D

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So you think 16/17 yr olds shouldn't have a say? They could be living in the country the next 70yrs but due to 1 or 2yrs cannot help shape its future? I went to uni aged 17, I sure as shit would want to vote on something this important back then.

As I've posted before my 15 year old daughter potentially could vote on this issue yet nothing is being taught at school perhaps instead of teaching gaelic in schools - a language never used in lowland Scotland- perhaps they could start some pro and anti independence arguments

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Since you seem to know a lot about how Scotland's industries will fail. Can you please explain to me how UK industries will succeed and what ones they are?

Where exactly does the word fail get typed in my post

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As I've posted before my 15 year old daughter potentially could vote on this issue yet nothing is being taught at school perhaps instead of teaching gaelic in schools - a language never used in lowland Scotland- perhaps they could start some pro and anti independence arguments

 

 

Possibly as extra curricular, youth parliament stuff.

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jambos are go!

The 18,000 you suggest seems a sensible starting point but it all depends what an independent Scotland woukd want its military to do. I doubt Scotland would need or want an expeditionary type military as favoured by the major UK parties but one that can defend it's borders and assets and contribute to UN/Nato missions so the number might be less. Personally, I would hope any independent Scotland would join NATO as I think it's a bit dubious of non NATO nations, like Ireland, to effectively get their protection on the cheap.

 

Trident and its successor is a thorny one as having another nations nucear weapons based on your soil is a major issue. I think the UK having its sole Nuclear base in a foreign country would also be a major dilemma for London.

 

 

 

Getting back to the original point, if there were 18,000 in a the Scottish forces then I doubt the UK would have anything like that number remaining in Scotland.

 

Sorry but I would have thought staying in Nato and toleratiig Tridend would be poisonous and a'tuition fees' moment for the SNP.

Edited by jambos are go!
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