Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[GBJambo]

Undecided voter on Facebook asks for links to unbiased material, 7 yes voters direct her to the wee blue book as it will "tell her everything she needs to know".

 

I hate Facebook.

 

Agreed. How anyone can make a decision of this magnitude based on that is staggering. However not at all surprising.

[Gabriel]

No different to a message board like this one in a Scotland where the anti-English undertone is pretty easy to spot in certain posts.

 

You talk about the rise of English nationalism. What else would you expect when the nationalism of countries around them is so pronounced? And are you saying that Scottish nationalism is a good thing but English nationalism is a problem?

 

Agree on the first point. However, I never referred to Scottish nationalism in my post, as I recognise that the 'Yes' campaign seems to be a broader church. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of nationalism on both sides that are unsavoury.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

Exactly. Incoming President Junkers has also confirmed that Scotland would be viewed as a "Special case"

I got roasted earlier for suggesting we would get at least the same treatment as Ireland but it is staggering how many BT folk seem to propose that Scotland would be treated as a pariah and be locked out. It just doesn't make sense

Ireland has a treaty opt-out on Schengen. Scotland doesn't.

 

The UK has an opt-out on EMU. Scotland doesn't.

 

Now, if Scotland is given those opt-outs then it is all well and good but realpolitik comes into play here.

 

1. The regions of Europe which are the currently in the EU and wish for their own independence would have a fast track precedent. Not exactly appealing.

 

2. The currency union, or lack of it. If Scotland takes its share of debt whilst having no central bank and using the pound, Montenegro will argue that the reason blocking it entering no longer applies.

 

On the other hand, if Scotland reneges on taking its share, the UK could veto membership as all countries have to vote to approve membership.

 

It would be better to ask why Scotland wants in so badly anyway.

[The Mighty Thor]

There is nothing new in this and it has been in and out of discussion for several months. What has been lacking is the clear commitment from all pro-Union parties while petty infighting and focussing in currency has diverted attention.

 

As a "federalist", this makes eminent sense to me - best of both worlds and avoidance if wasteful dupication of effort in a small, very small island.

so none of this is in statute and none of it is in the process (white paper) to be added to the statute book? Thought not. It's all spurious Mittyesque bullshit that still the three main players can't agree on.

 

You see this is the issue for me. Cameron (and the others) were given the option of including a 'devo max' option on the ballot paper. He refused. it's a straight in/out vote. Fast forward 24 months and his arse is twitching like a rabbits nose because there now a chance that all they hold so dear could be broken apart. Make no mistake, they couldn't give two shits about Scotland or the Scots, it's more the irreversible implications of a Yes vote on the rest of the UK; Regional autonomy, electoral reform etc etc. It starts a chain reaction that no one can reasonably predict the outcome of.

 

riddle me this. Why now? why are the unionist parties now so desperate to keep Scotland? You've consistently pointed out we aren't net contributors to the UK so why bother?

[Forrest]

Not that anyone will likely care but after quite a lengthy spell swithering between the two options i'm 99% confident i'll vote no next week. My thinking is that whilst I (obviously) think massive change is required I genuinely do believe that if the level of political engagement we have seen during the referendum

 

That's the reason I'm voting "Yes". I honestly believe it's the only path for change, as the Tories and Labour have no incentive to enact anything.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

so none of this is in statute and none of it is in the process (white paper) to be added to the statute book? Thought not. It's all spurious Mittyesque bullshit that still the three main players can't agree on.

 

You see this is the issue for me. Cameron (and the others) were given the option of including a 'devo max' option on the ballot paper. He refused. it's a straight in/out vote. Fast forward 24 months and his arse is twitching like a rabbits nose because there now a chance that all they hold so dear could be broken apart. Make no mistake, they couldn't give two shits about Scotland or the Scots, it's more the irreversible implications of a Yes vote on the rest of the UK; Regional autonomy, electoral reform etc etc. It starts a chain reaction that no one can reasonably predict the outcome of.

 

riddle me this. Why now? why are the unionist parties now so desperate to keep Scotland? You've consistently pointed out we aren't net contributors to the UK so why bother?

Cameron: Scared of his backbench plus losing votes to UKIP in a backlash

 

Milliband: Scared of losing significant numbers of MPs

 

Clegg: Desperately trying to look relevant

[djf]

Sick of nationalist Braveheart wannabes with their vacant rhetoric and logic free symbolism

 

 

 

.....Oh

[The Mighty Thor]

Cameron: Scared of his backbench plus losing votes to UKIP in a backlash

 

Milliband: Scared of losing significant numbers of MPs

 

Clegg: Desperately trying to look relevant

I agree with all 3 points. A very succinct analysis. Particularly Clegg who embodies the self serving nature of Westminster. He had the opportunity in 2010 to make a difference by holding a desperate Tory party out to ransom to get some real political change. Instead he had his breeks at his ankles and had assumed the position before Cameron knew what day it was.

 

Their collective desperation to punch Scotland into their SatNavs now is both unedifying and grubby. None of which benefits the Scottish nation or her citizens or residents. Once this parochial sideshow is over Scotland will be shuffled down the agenda and these promised powers will be buried in the parliamentary running order never to see light of day.

 

[MODEDIT]

[Forrest]

 

 

As I said earlier, how is that "independence"? We will be constrained by the actions of the country owning the currency (the UK) but will lose our seats in the Government that controls the currency. Definitely a worse state than we have at present.

 

We don't have any control over currency just now. Do you think interest rates are set with Scotland in mind?

[Stuart Lyon]

You predicting a No vote then

Edited September 9, 2014 by Stuart Lyon

[Gabriel]

Sick of nationalist Braveheart wannabes with their vacant rhetoric and logic free symbolism

 

 

 

.....Oh

 

Saw that live on Sky this afternoon. Kay Burley was giving it the sober and dignified commentary and then collapsed in laughter. You could also hear the gasps from the gantry as it went down, as if it was a symbolic moment. Has an air of Kinnock falling at Brighton.

[JamboGraham]

 

 

so none of this is in statute and none of it is in the process (white paper) to be added to the statute book? Thought not. It's all spurious Mittyesque bullshit that still the three main players can't agree on.

 

You see this is the issue for me. Cameron (and the others) were given the option of including a 'devo max' option on the ballot paper. He refused. it's a straight in/out vote. Fast forward 24 months and his arse is twitching like a rabbits nose because there now a chance that all they hold so dear could be broken apart. Make no mistake, they couldn't give two shits about Scotland or the Scots, it's more the irreversible implications of a Yes vote on the rest of the UK; Regional autonomy, electoral reform etc etc. It starts a chain reaction that no one can reasonably predict the outcome of.

 

riddle me this. Why now? why are the unionist parties now so desperate to keep Scotland? You've consistently pointed out we aren't net contributors to the UK so why bother?

 

The unionist parties have always been desperate to keep Scotland within the UK. However, now the polls are suggesting this is seriously under threat, so they have had to revise the political offering. This is simple politics, no more and no less.

 

Yes, it is late in the day but if the offer is actually the best outcome for Scotland does it matter if it is was made two years before, or even two days before the vote?

[The Mighty Thor]

Sick of nationalist Braveheart wannabes with their vacant rhetoric and logic free symbolism

 

 

 

.....Oh

Which symbolic saltire raising was that? Downing Street, Liverpool etc etc?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

We don't have any control over currency just now. Do you think interest rates are set with Scotland in mind?

Nope.

 

However, rather than change that state of affairs Salmond is trying to preserve a banking single market, which apparently is more important than economic sovereignity.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I agree with all 3 points. A very succinct analysis. Particularly Clegg who embodies the self serving nature of Westminster. He had the opportunity in 2010 to make a difference by holding a desperate Tory party out to ransom to get some real political change. Instead he had his breeks at his ankles and had assumed the position before Cameron knew what day it was.

 

Their collective desperation to punch Scotland into their SatNavs now is both unedifying and grubby. None of which benefits the Scottish nation or her citizens or residents. Once this parochial sideshow is over Scotland will be shuffled down the agenda and these promised powers will be buried in the parliamentary running order never to see light of day.

 

[MODEDIT]

 

That's certainly true. Scotland will get forgotten if it's a no vote. The promises will be hollow. Politics in action.

 

That said, Scotland has a warped sense of self-importance and entitlement. As many people live in Yorkshire as live in Scotland.

[Boab]

Cameron: Scared of his backbench plus losing votes to UKIP in a backlash

 

Milliband: Scared of losing significant numbers of MPs

 

Clegg: Desperately trying to look relevant

 

Agree,Geoff but let me add that if there is a "No" vote,most of that will come to pass..the English are going in UKIP's direction....Labour will be on the end of a backlash in Scotland and Clegg will be working in a butchers!

[The Mighty Thor]

The unionist parties have always been desperate to keep Scotland within the UK. However, now the polls are suggesting this is seriously under threat, so they have had to revise the political offering. This is simple politics, no more and no less.

 

Yes, it is late in the day but if the offer is actually the best outcome for Scotland does it matter if it is was made two years before, or even two days before the vote?

why are they so desperate to keep us in the UK? I've still never seen a decent answer to that question.

It may be simple politics to them but probably not to the potential 750,000 (IIRC) postal voters who may have already voted. what happens if someone places a legal challenge on that having voted based on the simple Yes/No before the great announcement?

 

What is the offer? Thunderstruck regurgitated an earlier collection of 'policy proposals' but can't back them up becuase the 3 parties haven't discussed it and probably couldn't agree on it all anyway. So what are we being offered other than jam tomorrow?

[Groot]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/scotland-poll

 

Please say this is made up

 

Saying that it was from the comments on a Facebook post about someone claiming there were thousands of unclaimed postal vote applications at Royal Mail sorting centres. It was then shown that the envelope the guy had in his original post actually bore no resemblance to the actual envelopes sent out!

 

There's some really ******* scary people out there

[The Mighty Thor]

That's certainly true. Scotland will get forgotten if it's a no vote. The promises will be hollow. Politics in action.

 

That said, Scotland has a warped sense of self-importance and entitlement. As many people live in Yorkshire as live in Scotland.

There's actually a bigger population in the county of Yorkshire than there is in the country of Scotland. I'm not sure of the point though?

 

Has anyone asked the people of Yorkshire if they'd like more autonomy? Perhaps they don't particularly want Westminster running their affairs?

[Thunderstruck]

 

so none of this is in statute and none of it is in the process (white paper) to be added to the statute book? Thought not. It's all spurious Mittyesque bullshit that still the three main players can't agree on.

 

You see this is the issue for me. Cameron (and the others) were given the option of including a 'devo max' option on the ballot paper. He refused. it's a straight in/out vote. Fast forward 24 months and his arse is twitching like a rabbits nose because there now a chance that all they hold so dear could be broken apart. Make no mistake, they couldn't give two shits about Scotland or the Scots, it's more the irreversible implications of a Yes vote on the rest of the UK; Regional autonomy, electoral reform etc etc. It starts a chain reaction that no one can reasonably predict the outcome of.

 

riddle me this. Why now? why are the unionist parties now so desperate to keep Scotland? You've consistently pointed out we aren't net contributors to the UK so why bother?

 

It has about as much substance and value as the Independence White Paper but has a significantly higher prospect of implementation.

 

As for why or why now - there is much more at risk than ?50 odd billion of public spending and exchequer income. It is the prevention of a serious dislocation that will impact negatively on all parts of the UK and carries the serious risk of plunging the country back into recession. The UK politicians to protect the interests if all of the citizens of the UK, not just Scotland.

 

The news tonight talked of employment being at its highest level in many years - real jobs, real money in the likes of construction which is one of the firm measures of growth. There are also prospects of pay rises in the next round. That is what will improve social standards, not handouts.

 

Separation could knock that for six.

 

Anyway, having gone to hear Curtice at Glasgow Uni tonight, I will be interested to see if and how his analysis is reported.

 

The notion that Labour supporters are deserting to Yes seems to be a misrepresentation of findings and there seemed to be an equal proportion of those who voted SNP in the past who are voting No.

 

The bigger and more long term Social Attitudes Survey shows a closing of the gap but not as dramatically as in the smaller polls. This shows a significant percentage who want devolution not separation - perhaps this is Brown's target audience.

 

Still much to play for and Curtice reckons that Brown carries as much weight in large parts of Scotland as Salmond. It will be an interesting few days.

[djf]

 

 

Scotland has a warped sense of self-importance and entitlement. As many people live in Yorkshire as live in Scotland.

 

 

The way this campaign has went for BT I would only be moderately surprised if this was Cameron's opening gambit tomorrow.

[Stuart Lyon]

Mighty Thor What is the SNP white paper if it isn't jam tomorrow?

[Gabriel]

Another powerful article by Monblot in the Guardian. Doesn't pull any punches.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope?CMP=twt_gu

[JamboGraham]

 

why are they so desperate to keep us in the UK? I've still never seen a decent answer to that question.

 

Because we are a United Kingdom, with a shared social, political and economical structure. For me it is as simple as that. It always has been.

 

I can't comment on the legalities of it but the 'offers' from each party have been published for months. The offer made in the past 48 hours is confirmation that the three parties will work together on a published timetable to have a selection of these fast tracked onto the statue book.

[hughesie27]

 

 

 

Because we are a United Kingdom, with a shared social, political and economical structure. For me it is as simple as that. It always has been.

 

I can't comment on the legalities of it but the 'offers' from each party have been published for months. The offer made in the past 48 hours is confirmation that the three parties will work together on a published timetable to have a selection of these fast tracked onto the statue book.

 

So in order to gain more powers we must vote for less power. Saweeet.

Edited September 9, 2014 by hughesie27

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Another powerful article by Monblot in the Guardian. Doesn't pull any punches.

 

http://www.theguardi...hope?CMP=twt_gu

 

I would love to know if anyone has told him that Scotland's future prosperity is based on finding more of those hated hydrocarbons that are killing the planet. The thing with Monbiot is that one minute he will argue that we are all going to die unless we adopt some sort of hard Green hippy commune, the next minute he is arguing for the hard Left.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Another powerful article by Monblot in the Guardian. Doesn't pull any punches.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope?CMP=twt_gu

 

Ooft. Labour supporters look away now.

 

This whole thing has been a disaster for Labour. Big strategic mistake siding with the Tories and the coalition. They should have abstained from campaigning - for the people of Scotland to decide, too important to play politics with, respect the result whatever it is etc etc.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

[The Mighty Thor]

It has about as much substance and value as the Independence White Paper but has a significantly higher prospect of implementation.

We'll never know because the No campaign haven't published a single thing in this campaign. The opportunity to map out new powers was given and not taken. Shame on them.

 

As for why or why now - there is much more at risk than ?50 odd billion of public spending and exchequer income. It is the prevention of a serious dislocation that will impact negatively on all parts of the UK and carries the serious risk of plunging the country back into recession. The UK politicians to protect the interests if all of the citizens of the UK, not just Scotland.

 

The news tonight talked of employment being at its highest level in many years - real jobs, real money in the likes of construction which is one of the firm measures of growth. There are also prospects of pay rises in the next round. That is what will improve social standards, not handouts.

 

Separation could knock that for six.

That's not about improving Scotland that's about not damaging England/rUK. The status quo must be protected at all costs if you like. How does that secure a better future for Scotland and Scots?

 

Employment is at it's highest as the UK apparently has 4 million self employed. Dig deeper and you find that the self employed is actually the categorisation now given to those working in the millions of 'zero hours' contract jobs. Real jobs and real money indeed. Just not next week as you've not got any shifts.

 

I listened to Mark Carney today talk of pay rises. I filed it in the same place i filed Cameron's latest devo max offering.

 

The bigger and more long term Social Attitudes Survey shows a closing of the gap but not as dramatically as in the smaller polls. This shows a significant percentage who want devolution not separation - perhaps this is Brown's target audience..

There was always a significant percentage who wanted enhanced devolution. I was one of them. We were denied it. Told by Dave its was my way or the highway. That's Brown's target audience. I hope he has the sense to unclip his radio mike in this campaign lest we find out what he really thinks of his countrymen.

[The Mighty Thor]

Mighty Thor What is the SNP white paper if it isn't jam tomorrow?

Stuart it's their version of jam tomorrow. rightly it's there to be scrutinised, picked apart and questioned.

 

Now where's the white paper on devo max, the actual details, the costs, the proposed implementation. If i had that i could then make an informed decision.

[JamboGraham]

 

So in order to gain more powers we must vote for less power. Saweeet.

 

No, the vote is about Scotland becoming an independent country which is about much more than political power.

 

This offer simply demonstrates that change can be achieved whilst remaining in the United Kingdom.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

No, the vote is about Scotland becoming an independent country which is about much more than political power.

 

This offer simply demonstrates that change can be achieved whilst remaining in the United Kingdom.

 

The offer is about a collective shitting of pants. And again, why should Scotland get special treatment?

[The Mighty Thor]

Ooft. Labour supporters look away now.

 

This whole thing has been a disaster for Labour. Big strategic mistake siding with the Tories and the coalition. They should have abstained from campaigning - for the people of Scotland to decide, too important to play politics with, respect the result whatever it is etc etc.

Gordon Brown look away now. Fillited. Absolutely rent asunder.

[JamboGraham]

 

Now where's the white paper on devo max, the actual details, the costs, the proposed implementation. If i had that i could then make an informed decision.

 

You mean like the actual details, costs and proposed implementation plan in the Scottish Government white paper?

[RosscoC]

 

 

It has about as much substance and value as the Independence White Paper but has a significantly higher prospect of implementation.

 

As for why or why now - there is much more at risk than ?50 odd billion of public spending and exchequer income. It is the prevention of a serious dislocation that will impact negatively on all parts of the UK and carries the serious risk of plunging the country back into recession. The UK politicians to protect the interests if all of the citizens of the UK, not just Scotland.

 

The news tonight talked of employment being at its highest level in many years - real jobs, real money in the likes of construction which is one of the firm measures of growth. There are also prospects of pay rises in the next round. That is what will improve social standards, not handouts.

 

Separation could knock that for six.

 

Anyway, having gone to hear Curtice at Glasgow Uni tonight, I will be interested to see if and how his analysis is reported.

 

The notion that Labour supporters are deserting to Yes seems to be a misrepresentation of findings and there seemed to be an equal proportion of those who voted SNP in the past who are voting No.

 

The bigger and more long term Social Attitudes Survey shows a closing of the gap but not as dramatically as in the smaller polls. This shows a significant percentage who want devolution not separation - perhaps this is Brown's target audience.

 

Still much to play for and Curtice reckons that Brown carries as much weight in large parts of Scotland as Salmond. It will be an interesting few days.

 

I find it jaw dropping that anyone could still have faith in Gordon Brown.

 

This is the guy who promised an end to boom bust and then presided over the biggest bust in history.

The FSA, PPI, Iraq, selling the Gold on the cheap.

And then yesterday he's talking about Labour principals in Loanhead Miners...and they're swallowing it.

 

How anyone can see this "ex-politician" as credible is beyond me.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

No, the vote is about Scotland becoming an independent country which is about much more than political power.

 

This offer simply demonstrates that change can be achieved whilst remaining in the United Kingdom.

 

Again. What offer? There is no offer. Merely a timetable to discuss an offer. the proposal to have a meeting about a meeting about something.....ooops we've run out of parliamentary time, lets try again in oh..................lets say another 35 years?

That's what will be achieved in a 'United' Kingdom

[freddiemac]

I was going to vote yes ,till I read the white paper. [MODEDIT] are dividing scotland in 2 ,taking the great out of great Britain,falling out with our NATO allies and getting us tossed out of europe. FALLING OUT WITH EVERYBODY for what? Sorry it has to be NO THANKS

[The Mighty Thor]

You mean like the actual details, costs and proposed implementation plan in the Scottish Government white paper?

As i've already said, you can query and debate the details in the white paper and cast aspersions there on but it's out there.

 

If devo max was always on the table then surely this will have been detailed and costed out so lets see it. I'm sure the rUK residents would love to see just how much more of the UK's GDP is going to be spunked on the sponging whinging jocks? no?

[jambo1185]

 

 

I find it jaw dropping that anyone could still have faith in Gordon Brown.

 

This is the guy who promised an end to boom bust and then presided over the biggest bust in history.

The FSA, PPI, Iraq, selling the Gold on the cheap.

And then yesterday he's talking about Labour principals in Loanhead Miners...and they're swallowing it.

 

How anyone can see this "ex-politician" as credible is beyond me.

 

Im not his biggest fan but the same could be said of Alex 'what banks need is less regulation' Salmond.

 

All politicians have had their stinkers sadly.

[JamboGraham]

 

The offer is about a collective shitting of pants. And again, why should Scotland get special treatment?

 

The proposed powers has been available for months, the updated offer is an attempt to demonstrate to the voters in Scotland that it will be delivered. Of course it is a collective shitting of pants but that is politics! You respond to the landscape in front of you.

 

Why should Scotland get special treatment? Because we asked for it, and voted for it by putting an SNP government in Holyrood. Wales could get the same if they put Plaid into the assembly.

[RosscoC]

I was going to vote yes ,till I read the white paper. [MODEDIT] dividing scotland in 2 ,taking the great out of great Britain,falling out with our NATO allies and getting us tossed out of europe. FALLING OUT WITH EVERYBODY for what? Sorry it has to be NO THANKS

 

Out of interest, what were your reasons for initially wanting to vote yes?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

As i've already said, you can query and debate the details in the white paper and cast aspersions there on but it's out there.

 

If devo max was always on the table then surely this will have been detailed and costed out so lets see it. I'm sure the rUK residents would love to see just how much more of the UK's GDP is going to be spunked on the sponging whinging jocks? no?

 

Actually, I'm sure the rest of the UK would like to know what advantages Scotland are getting compared to themselves. Northern Ireland has been arguing for devolving corporation tax for some time to compete with the cheap rate down south. The Treasury's response is fair enough but you need to cut the block grant by the same amount and therefore the bullet will not be bitten.

 

Time to tear up Barnett in any case.

[rossthejambo]

I was going to vote yes ,till I read the white paper. [MODEDIT] dividing scotland in 2 ,taking the great out of great Britain,falling out with our NATO allies and getting us tossed out of europe. FALLING OUT WITH EVERYBODY for what? Sorry it has to be NO THANKS

 

The White Paper is only there to show what the SNP would do if they were then elected in an independent Scotland. Voting yes isn't voting for the SNP or Alex Salmond.

 

Miliband and co teaming up with Cameron on a trip to Scotland could turn out to be the biggest own goal Better Together could score.

[Boab]

I find it jaw dropping that anyone could still have faith in Gordon Brown.

 

This is the guy who promised an end to boom bust and then presided over the biggest bust in history.

The FSA, PPI, Iraq, selling the Gold on the cheap.

And then yesterday he's talking about Labour principals in Loanhead Miners...and they're swallowing it.

 

How anyone can see this "ex-politician" as credible is beyond me.

 

Agree but it's either him or pushing Johann Lamont forward....tough call!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The proposed powers has been available for months, the updated offer is an attempt to demonstrate to the voters in Scotland that it will be delivered. Of course it is a collective shitting of pants but that is politics! You respond to the landscape in front of you.

 

Why should Scotland get special treatment? Because we asked for it, and voted for it by putting an SNP government in Holyrood. Wales could get the same if they put Plaid into the assembly.

 

I'm sorry but I don't believe the SNP campaigned on a platform of devo max, did they?

[The Mighty Thor]

Actually, I'm sure the rest of the UK would like to know what advantages Scotland are getting compared to themselves. Northern Ireland has been arguing for devolving corporation tax for some time to compete with the cheap rate down south. The Treasury's response is fair enough but you need to cut the block grant by the same amount and therefore the bullet will not be bitten.

 

Time to tear up Barnett in any case.

Time to turn Westminster into a regional assembly Geoff. It's past its sell-by date by about 40 years.

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

You don't visit football forums for reason...

Anyway - after the campaign the Yes camp has run, telling us all how we're so different to rUK because we are oh so much more compassionate and socially just - is it any winder animosity has grown?

 

Thankfully it's not everywhere - not even close. This was sent to a BT campaigner

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Agree but it's either him or pushing Johann Lamont forward....tough call!

Johann Lamont requires subtitles on the Scottish news. Enough said.

Edited September 9, 2014 by The Mighty Thor

[JamboGraham]

 

Again. What offer? There is no offer. Merely a timetable to discuss an offer. the proposal to have a meeting about a meeting about something.....ooops we've run out of parliamentary time, lets try again in oh..................lets say another 35 years?

That's what will be achieved in a 'United' Kingdom

 

Ok, replace the word 'offer' with pledge. It is probably better.

 

They have pledged a timetable getting additional powers on the statue book. You either choose to believe it or not, in fact even if you do believe it it you still don't have to vote for it.

 

It may appeal to some...that's politics.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Time to turn Westminster into a regional assembly Geoff. It's past its sell-by date by about 40 years.

 

Or just give England independence.

 

In all seriousness, the point about devo max / federalism is that no one has actually asked the English what form of governance they want, if any. The only way a devo max settlement is sustainable for everyone is for similar powers to be granted all around, be that an English parliament or regional parliaments in England.

 

There are people saying that it would be unbalanced if there was an English parliament. Would it really? New South Wales and Victoria's state parliaments here represent many more people than Tasmania's. California is just ever so slightly bigger than Wyoming. These systems seem to work pretty well.

[Boab]

You don't visit football forums for reason...

Anyway - after the campaign the Yes camp has run, telling us all how we're so different to rUK because we are oh so much more compassionate and socially just - is it any winder animosity has grown?

 

Thankfully it's not everywhere - not even close. This was sent to a BT campaigner

 

That's lovely.....what does it say?