Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Boab]

I know two English people up here working in oil that will vote Yes.

 

One is because he thinks its an "interesting social experiment" and the other because it increases his chances of being labelled as an Expat and thereby qualifying for tax-exempt salary. Neither plan to live here long-term and in my view both are voting for unjustifiable reasons.

 

Still a far better reason than what football team you support!

[hughesie27]

Wise words from Carney today

 

 

I could have came out with that. It offers absolutely nothing to the likelihood of a currency union forming however. Surely even a No.voter can see that it makes no financial sense to run away from Scotlands economy?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

I could have came out with that. It offers absolutely nothing to the likelihood of a currency union forming however. Surely even a No.voter can see that it makes no financial sense to run away from Scotlands economy?

If you were PM why would you expose rUK to the burden of a CU when you already know if it's refused Scotland will use the pound anyway?

[JamboGraham]

 

I hope they're going to release results of each count as they come in? Was looking forward to staying up half the night to watch it unfold!

 

Each council area will announce their local result as soon as it is available (similar to a standard election night).

 

The final result will be made in Edinburgh after all counts are complete. Of course, we will already know the result and that announcement is just a formality.

[hughesie27]

 

If you were PM why would you expose rUK to the burden of a CU when you already know if it's refused Scotland will use the pound anyway?

 

I wouldn't view it as a burden. Best of both worlds and all that.

 

[scottish_chicP]

 

I hope they're going to release results of each count as they come in? Was looking forward to staying up half the night to watch it unfold!

Few zombies all over the country next Fri eh?

[JamboGraham]

 

 

I know more than a few folk from England, Germany, Spain and Italy who are choosing not to vote as they think it is morally wrong for them to be able to decide Scotlands fate. I appreciate why they would choose to feel that way but I wouldn't ever want to take their choice of voting away from them either, regardless of what side they chose.

 

Agreed, I am aware of several people who have taken this view.

[leginten]

Can't concentrate properly on the news because they're on Calton Hill and zooming in on that monstrosity in Lochend.

[Brandt]

I think after the yes vote it will be agreed for Scotland to continue use the pound. Its only a scare tactic. It wont be worth the hassle or the huge cost to both sides the for the no camp to carry out the no use threat afterwards. I believe anyway.

[jambo1185]

Massie wrote almost exactly how I feel.

 

I've always been one of the minority who consider themselves British so it's just not something that can ever sit right with me.

[Don Draper]

Massie

 

"Why I'm voting No"

 

He's written some good stuff on this referendum. This is worth a read

 

http://blogs.spectat...i-am-voting-no/

 

It's full of passion - I'll give him that.

[djf]

Not that anyone will likely care but after quite a lengthy spell swithering between the two options i'm 99% confident i'll vote no next week. My thinking is that whilst I (obviously) think massive change is required I genuinely do believe that if the level of political engagement we have seen during the referendum campaign continues then we will get further powers (whatever that means for the long term) and push leftist issues to prominence. If stronger plans were in place regarding the key issues then i'd certainly be a Yes but as things stand I don't see how independence won't mean further hardship for those who can afford it least in the short to medium term. Now my major hope is that it's 51/49 or the like so that complacency towards the political views of the majority of the people of Scotland won't be allowed to seep in again.

[DETTY29]

I know of someone who cant vote and is totally against independance and she will be counting votes. I'm 100% going to make a point of putting the heeby jeebys into her. An im not even joking.

When it comes to counting voting at elections, notably one as important as this one, there should be a minimum jail sentence of 6 months for anyone found guilty of deliberately falsifying ballot papers at an official count.

 

If there isn't already.

[Hasselhoff]

Not that anyone will likely care but after quite a lengthy spell swithering between the two options i'm 99% confident i'll vote no next week. My thinking is that whilst I (obviously) think massive change is required I genuinely do believe that if the level of political engagement we have seen during the referendum campaign continues then we will get further powers (whatever that means for the long term) and push leftist issues to prominence. If stronger plans were in place regarding the key issues then i'd certainly be a Yes but as things stand I don't see how independence won't mean further hardship for those who can afford it least in the short to medium term. Now my major hope is that it's 51/49 or the like so that complacency towards the political views of the majority of the people of Scotland won't be allowed to seep in again.

 

The same reason I am voting no. The plan is not there. I would rather they thought it through more with proper costs and told me how they plan to save more, spend more and keep taxes the same. If the poor think it's bad now, it could get a whole lot worse in an Indy Scotland until we get ourselves sorted out. May take 5 years, may take 10 or more.

 

Go back to the drawing board, plan to make a new scottish currency so we don't depend on another country and cost out the whole thing. This kind of decision should not be rushed into.

[scottish_chicP]

When it comes to counting voting at elections, notably one as important as this one, there should be a minimum jail sentence of 6 months for anyone found guilty of deliberately falsifying ballot papers at an official count.

 

If there isn't already.

I'd assume this, or similar is already in place.

[Gabriel]

Agreed, I am aware of several people who have taken this view.

 

I know quite a number of EU people living here who will vote 'Yes'. They feel they have been here long enough to participate and genuinely fear that England is moving toward leaving the EU; they want to guarantee Scotland remains within it.

[Nookie Bear]

 

 

I just think it's outrageous that born and bred Scots living outwith Scotland don't get a vote but the Poles and Romanians who have lived in Scotland for 5 minutes do.

 

Loads of Scottish Armed Forces personnel are being denied the vote - that can't be right.

 

Why should Scots living abroad be able to vote for something that will not affect their daily lives?

 

Plenty of English working up here too...can they vote?

 

Strikes me New Scotland will show the same fear of Jonny Foreigner as the rest of the UK. Disappointingly'not fairer'..

[IMac]

 

 

I know quite a number of EU people living here who will vote 'Yes'. They feel they have been here long enough to participate and genuinely fear that England is moving toward leaving the EU; they want to guarantee Scotland remains within it.

 

the irony hurts so much.

[Gabriel]

the irony hurts so much.

 

Is rather odd. Just one of those strange circumstances that has made this campaign so enthralling. I live in the Netherlands, so cannot vote in the referendum here, and I couldn't imagine participating in such a vote over there, but I'm all for others having their say here.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

Why should Scots living abroad be able to vote for something that will not affect their daily lives?

 

Plenty of English working up here too...can they vote?

 

Strikes me New Scotland will show the same fear of Jonny Foreigner as the rest of the UK. Disappointingly'not fairer'..

 

They are still Scottish and I'm sure they still have family in Scotland they want the best for.

 

 

[GBJambo]

I think the silent majority will see us through with a no.

 

I fear the yes voter won't take this lightly when the no vote comes in

 

[Don Roberto]

http://www.scotsman....onths-1-3535302

 

AN independent Scotland?s membership of the European Union would be secured within the SNP?s 18-month timescale, a former president of the European Parliament has said.

 

Ireland?s Pat Cox branded opposition claims that Scotland would find itself frozen out of the EU as ?sophistry? and said the country?s expulsion would damage the internal market and lead to ?chaos? in the EU fisheries sector.

 

 

Another thumbs up for the pragmatic approach.

Exactly. Incoming President Junkers has also confirmed that Scotland would be viewed as a "Special case"

I got roasted earlier for suggesting we would get at least the same treatment as Ireland but it is staggering how many BT folk seem to propose that Scotland would be treated as a pariah and be locked out. It just doesn't make sense

[The Mighty Thor]

I find it interesting to read posters who will vote no but want change. Perpetuating the status quo will change nothing.

The current political system is outdated and outmoded and if it's not this time it'll be next time when the next generation takes the step ours appear afraid to.

[The People's Chimp]

Why should Scots living abroad be able to vote for something that will not affect their daily lives?

 

Plenty of English working up here too...can they vote?

 

Strikes me New Scotland will show the same fear of Jonny Foreigner as the rest of the UK. Disappointingly'not fairer'..

 

How can it be said that something as fundamental as nationality will not affect their daily lives? Laughable stance.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting the english shouldn't get a vote, but bash on.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

Some of the powers:

Borrowing powers for social investment - up to ?22bn in bonds

 

New powers in relation to Tax - in particular Income Tax.

 

New Constitutional Powers

 

Transport

 

Land use - transfer of Crown Estate

 

Devolution of more of the elements of Social Care

 

Housing Benefits

 

Employment Rights

 

Just some what is on offer.

 

This will be published in a White Paper before 30 Nov 14.

 

If it is a "No" and they renege, a "Yes" win would only be a few years away. They have to be sincere and follow through.

Can you please post the source of this as I haven't seen anything other than the soundbites of a discredited labour back bencher.

 

Thanks.

[Norm]

What's with the Polish flags with YES on them at Salmond's gigs ?

 

And people say the Unionists are desperate ?!

 

Maybe the Poles are voting Yes because they don't get a vote in the Westminster elections and think they might get one in an Independent Scotland?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

Maybe the Poles are voting Yes because they don't get a vote in the Westminster elections and think they might get one in an Independent Scotland?

 

Surely they would get a vote in Westminster elections after living in the country for a certain period of time?

[Norm]

 

 

Surely they would get a vote in Westminster elections after living in the country for a certain period of time?

 

Nope.

 

My wife is German. Lived here for 15 years. Can only vote in Hollywood and EU elections.

 

If she decided to take British citizenship she obviously could but has no intention of doing so. Especially as Germany are really funny about Dual Nationality.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Normthebarman

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

Nope.

 

My wife is German. Lived here for 15 years. Can only vote in Hollywood and EU elections.

 

That does seen odd. How long do you have to live in Scotland to vote in Hollyrood elections?

[Norm]

 

 

That does seen odd. How long do you have to live in Scotland to vote in Hollyrood elections?

 

Damn right it's odd. Pays taxes to Westminster but has no say in how it's spent.

 

No idea about your last question though.

[The People's Chimp]

That does seen odd. How long do you have to live in Scotland to vote in Hollyrood elections?

 

You only need to be resident. A student can vote having just arrived to start a course as long as register in time for said election, for example. Same for anyone who arrives to work. Exercising a treaty right in the country you are resident and thus the rules allow you to vote.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

You only need to be resident. A student can vote having just arrived to start a course as long as register in time for said election, for example. Same for anyone who arrives to work. Exercising a treaty right in the country you are resident and thus the rules allow you to vote.

 

That is equally as stupid as not being able to vote after living in the UK for 15 years.

[Gabriel]

I find it interesting to read posters who will vote no but want change. Perpetuating the status quo will change nothing.

The current political system is outdated and outmoded and if it's not this time it'll be next time when the next generation takes the step ours appear afraid to.

 

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Saltire flying over Downing Street.

Oh ma sides.

[Norm]

 

 

You only need to be resident. A student can vote having just arrived to start a course as long as register in time for said election, for example. Same for anyone who arrives to work. Exercising a treaty right in the country you are resident and thus the rules allow you to vote.

 

As Dusk til Dawn says, equally as daft for the students. I don't have a problem for workers. If you pay tax, I think you should have a right to decide what gets done with it.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Normthebarman

[Coco]

 

 

I could have came out with that. It offers absolutely nothing to the likelihood of a currency union forming however. Surely even a No.voter can see that it makes no financial sense to run away from Scotlands economy?

 

He is talking about the possibility of forming a successful currency union. As the conditions normally required for a successful currency union wouldn't be available - and the economics of this isn't controversial - it is very unlikely that one would be formed. Transactions costs are normally not enough to push through currency union.

[Nookie Bear]

 

 

How can it be said that something as fundamental as nationality will not affect their daily lives? Laughable stance.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting the english shouldn't get a vote, but bash on.

 

But I thought this was all about Scotland making decisions that directly affect them (rather than those pesky tories) on a daily basis - I.e. the NHS.

 

If this was purely a nationality debate then feel free to give me a Scottish passport if that's all that matters.

 

I wad curious why the Poles are getting called out here. I suppose I expect Scots to be more welcoming.

[off the rails]

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

 

Its more complex than that. I know English folk that have settled here and voting Yes.

[Gabriel]

Its more complex than that. I know English folk that have settled here and voting Yes.

 

Sorry, I wasn't referring to people who live in Scotland. Here, I think the debate has been conducted fairly courteously. My concern is with how it has been portrayed by the southern media and how it has been received.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

 

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

 

I've said it before. The engine of Scottish independence will most likely not be Scotland.

Personally I couldn't give a shiny shite if England or the English have an enmity toward us.

The empire is gone. The commonwealth is fragmenting and England itself is on the verge of imploding anyway. The regions are growing ever distant from London and there's a real undercurrent of an English nationalism which is far uglier than anything we're seeing up here.

They really struggle to accept their new lower place in the new world order labouring under a false pretence of being a global power. That's only going to get worse in the next 10-20 years.

The world moves on, best move on with it.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

Sorry, I wasn't referring to people who live in Scotland. Here, I think the debate has been conducted fairly courteously. My concern is with how it has been portrayed by the southern media and how it has been received.

 

If I'm being honest, up until a few weeks ago it's hardly figured on the agenda of the southern media. Since then I think the coverage has been relatively balanced, at least in proper journalistic circles

[Thunderstruck]

I think after the yes vote it will be agreed for Scotland to continue use the pound. Its only a scare tactic. It wont be worth the hassle or the huge cost to both sides the for the no camp to carry out the no use threat afterwards. I believe anyway.

 

As I said earlier, how is that "independence"? We will be constrained by the actions of the country owning the currency (the UK) but will lose our seats in the Government that controls the currency. Definitely a worse state than we have at present.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

But I thought this was all about Scotland making decisions that directly affect them (rather than those pesky tories) on a daily basis - I.e. the NHS.

 

If this was purely a nationality debate then feel free to give me a Scottish passport if that's all that matters.

 

I wad curious why the Poles are getting called out here. I suppose I expect Scots to be more welcoming.

 

Looks like Salmond called the Poles out. I'm curious as to why

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

 

No different to a message board like this one in a Scotland where the anti-English undertone is pretty easy to spot in certain posts.

 

You talk about the rise of English nationalism. What else would you expect when the nationalism of countries around them is so pronounced? And are you saying that Scottish nationalism is a good thing but English nationalism is a problem?

[The People's Chimp]

Two great pieces today, and yesterday, from Massie and Welsh. Both on different sides of the fence but both, in their ways, encapsulating how I think many feel and why it's tearing people up.

 

Heart or Head. Heart can go both ways.

[Nookie Bear]

 

 

Life after a 'No' vote is also likely to be extremely painful for Scots. There is a growing sense of English nationalism afoot. Thus, the sense of recrimination, even after a 'No' vote, will linger long, since many English people have construed anti-Westminster as espoused by the 'Yes' campaign as anti-Englishness. Visit the forum of any English football club and the enmity towards Scots is genuinely distressing, so anyone who thinks life will carry on as if nothing has happened after this may have to think again.

 

You don't guage a country by football forums. Of course if we did that here then suddenly Scotland exposes it's neddy, secterian underclass.

 

After a YES then I will be all over our SNP man to make sure everything is better and fairer...just a shame he won't be able to blame anyone else.

[Thunderstruck]

 

Can you please post the source of this as I haven't seen anything other than the soundbites of a discredited labour back bencher.

 

Thanks.

 

There is nothing new in this and it has been in and out of discussion for several months. What has been lacking is the clear commitment from all pro-Union parties while petty infighting and focussing in currency has diverted attention.

 

As a "federalist", this makes eminent sense to me - best of both worlds and avoidance if wasteful dupication of effort in a small, very small island.

[Gabriel]

Looks like Salmond called the Poles out. I'm curious as to why

 

He was surrounded by people of different European and other nationalities, some of whom were holding cards stating 'Yes' in their own language, whilst others were carrying flags. The aim was to raise awareness about Scotland's position within the EU, I imagine.

[jambo1185]

Undecided voter on Facebook asks for links to unbiased material, 7 yes voters direct her to the wee blue book as it will "tell her everything she needs to know".

 

I hate Facebook.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Undecided voter on Facebook asks for links to unbiased material, 7 yes voters direct her to the wee blue book as it will "tell her everything she needs to know".

 

I hate Facebook.

It's the bible, written by a mental minister - in Bath!