Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[jambo1185]

 

 

No, but what if Rees-Mogg's attitude prevails and a deal is done and Farage is given some cabinet role? I'll wager there are plenty within the Tory ranks that would like to see us squirm.

 

Even if Farage was given a cabinet role he can't carry Tory government position unilaterally, the wider cabinet would need to be on board, assuming it's even a Tory government in place. The Tories have agreed to the timetable, and it seems it will be in all their manifestos (for what that's worth nowadays). Tory position on further powers has already been set out, whether this new 'commission' will see something more or different put on the table, no idea.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jambo1185

[The People's Chimp]

Who are these people though? The ones who assume everything will be a cakewalk? Because I've never met one, not on either side. These mythical creatures used to discredit the decision-making process of Yes voters, these non-existent folk who expect 'utopia' or a 'land of milk and honey' - the 'jam' crew? I don't see them, ever. I just see a lot of people voting Yes who simply aren't afraid of Scotland having a fair bit of negotiation and organisation to do. Actually, they're quite excited at the prospect.

 

 

I'll give you my facebook log in, have a wee look.

[Boris]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

 

He didn't do a good job when the constituency next to him fell to the SNP! As was pointed out on the CH4 news last night, why should a back bench MP have any sway?

 

I am of course being slightly disingenuous and respect that Brown is/was a political "heavyweight".

 

As for sneering and being dismissive, from what I've seen and read those aren't characteristics unique to YES supporters. But it is perhaps the nature of this debate as the same arguments and counter-arguments get trotted out out ad nauseam.

[Groot]

 

 

 

I'll give you my facebook log in, have a wee look.

 

I'd offer the same but I had to de-friend most of them

 

One even linked the kidnapping of the Scottish boy by ISIS to a scare tactic to push people towards no

[Mikey1874]

Watching the No people being questioned on new powers. Questions pretty robust ie what Yes are saying.

 

Not coming across too well. Maybe will be clearer but seems they are commiting to process including consultations with firm proposals by Jan 2015. Original party proposals still stand for now.

[jambo1185]

 

 

 

I'd offer the same but I had to de-friend most of them

 

One even linked the kidnapping of the Scottish boy by ISIS to a scare tactic to push people towards no

 

Haha jeezo. This is why it terrifies me when I see people on Facebook say "I'm undecided. How should I vote?" and there are 100 comments of absolute nonsense from people on both sides.

[The Mighty Thor]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

I'm not sure if you're actually serious or just trolling.

 

Brown's gaffe strewn stewardship culminated in the economic crash of 2007/8.

 

I'd say his credibility is probably damaged beyond repair even with the less cerebral staunch Labourites.

 

Quite what he's going to bring to the party, particularly in advising a rabid Conservative government who have consistently ridiculed the guy for the last 4 years, i'm not really sure.

 

'ah Gordon can you please go back up the road and quell the uprising, there's a good lad. What? no no of course we don't think you're a clown, ah we were only joshing' etc etc etc

[redm]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

 

Fight fire with fire, I guess. And if you think that's a problem exclusive to one side you're being more than a little disingenuous.

 

Oh, and because some of the nonsense trotted out by no campaign deserves utter derision. Problem is they're now in panic mode and it's only going to get worse. Just waiting to see how they use threat of terrorists to upset our grannies. Watch this space.

 

There are many reasons it's amusing that Brown has been chosen. Many. That a Labour stalwart is fronting something for David Cameron is particularly notable, that and the fact Brown must be the least inspiring politician ever.

Edited September 9, 2014 by redm

[doctor jambo]

Problem is this is not about fronting anything for Cameron, or the Tories.

THe whole thing has been reduced to a pathetic level .

It should be about INdependence, self governance.

NOT about getting away from Westminster, or the Tories.

ITs not even about currency or economics- after independance we could have anyone in charge, and the policies would cahnge anyway.

Maybe the NHS will go under a new Scottish government in 5/10/30/50 years- you cannot say

Its speculative nonsense

Policy in this debate is utterly irrelevant

[michael_bolton]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

 

He's also the economic genius who sold half of the UK's gold reserves cheaply at a massive loss to the UK taxpayer. That, along with his time as PM harms his credibility.

Edited September 9, 2014 by michael_bolton

[EIEIO]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

Brown's party is not in power at Westminster who is he speaking on behalf of? If it's Labour it's irrelevant unless they win the next election if it's the ConDems it's pure bluster.

[jambo1185]

 

Brown's party is not in power at Westminster who is he speaking on behalf of? If it's Labour it's irrelevant unless they win the next election if it's the ConDems it's pure bluster.

 

He's ultimately speaking on behalf of a Better Together, no? Albeit from a Labour standpoint setting out what they would do if in power, and certain processes all unionist parties are committed to.

 

Do people like Patrick Harvie (from a Green standpoint) and Elaine C Smith (from a SSP/minor celebrity standpoint), or your ordinary bloke in the street out canvassing, not have a right to speak on behalf of Yes? The a Green and SSP and even Labour for Independence picture if independence is very different from the White Paper.

 

I thought this wasn't a vote on the SNP, but on your logic they would be the only ones entitled to present the case for independence as the ones in power? Given there's no guarantee the SNP will be in power everything they say about independence is theoretical too.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jambo1185

[Boris]

He's ultimately speaking on behalf of a Better Together, no? Albeit from a Labour standpoint.

 

Do people like Patrick Harvie (from a Green standpoint) and Elaine C Smith (from a SSP/minor celebrity standpoint), or your ordinary bloke in the street out canvassing, not have a right to speak on behalf of Yes?

 

I thought this wasn't a vote on the SNP, but on your logic they would be the only ones entitled to present the case for independence as the ones in power?

 

A fair point but perhaps not as applicable because YES can deliver Independence.

 

BT cannot deliver defined extra powers because there is no agreement on what those powers would be, with each of the three main Unionist parties offering differing proposals.

[EIEIO]

 

 

He's speaking on behalf of a Better Together, no?

 

Do people like Patrick Harvie and Elaine C Smith, or your ordinary bloke in the street out canvassing, not have a right to speak on behalf of Yes?

Only governments or political parties can make laws. Yes campaign is purely urge a yes vote. SNP have detailed their proposals for the post Yes election, if they win it, I support yes but not the SNP.

[Forrest]

I like the fact that when I head to Wales or England I still feel at home. With an independent Scotland I would live in a completely independent country.

 

[modedit]

 

Just seen that my post was edited. Apologies if it was considered abusive.

 

To the point, what difference does it make? Why would it be an issue that England and Wales were completely different countries?

[Brandt]

The fact that 'Prime Minister' Cameron hasnt stepped up to the plate to save the union is astonishing. Getting Osbourne, Alistair Darling & now Gordon Brown to do all the leg work in these last desperate hours is laughable. The Union & his party are on the verge and he seems to be anonymous.

 

Few people said to me that a no vote is as good as voting for the Tories.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Brandt

[jambo1185]

 

 

Only governments or political parties can make laws. Yes campaign is purely urge a yes vote. SNP have detailed their proposals for the post Yes election, if they win it, I support yes but not the SNP.

 

Well the you go, Labour are setting out heir proposals for a post No election.

[Gabriel]

Why are there so many Yes supporters who feel they can just sneer and dismiss amything and anybody?

 

Gordon Brown has been an MP in Scotland continuously since 1983 and was PM. Why shouldn't he have a good chance of persuading people?

 

Not a 'Yes' voter nor a 'No' voter and certainly not sneering. However, Gordon Brown is a backbench MP who was the defeated incumbent at the last election and has now been thrust into the spotlight simply 'to get his own people out.' Westminster is now relying on Labour to do what it failed abjectly to do in 2011: halt a popular momentum for change. That said Westminster authorities have allowed such a scenario to arise is nothing short of breathtaking but, with personal political careers to salvage, it is perhaps little surprise that the fizzing bomb has been dropped at the feet of a man who will bow out of politics within the year. He may yet do enough to inch the 'No' vote over the line, but he could just as likely be the man held responsible for doing too little too late to save the Union. Then again, what worth is a Union, when the current prime minister of the UK has been in Scotland, visiting Balmoral, yet feels compelled not to speak on the matter as it might further damage the cause that he is supposedly fighting desperately to save? I can think of no other issue on which such negligence would be tolerated.

 

Historians have long chewed the fat off the bones of the original Union and its intrigues, and it now appears as if the divorce could be equally succulent.

[jambo1185]

 

 

A fair point but perhaps not as applicable because YES can deliver Independence.

 

BT cannot deliver defined extra powers because there is no agreement on what those powers would be, with each of the three main Unionist parties offering differing proposals.

 

BT can deliver a mechanism by which extra powers will be delivered, the detail of which will depend on which party is elected (although the is some suggestion of a joint commission which might align things). This is what they are doing and all parties signed up to giving more powers months ago (remember that stupid scroll thing they all signed). This is merely fleshing that out.

 

Exactly like Yes are only offering a mechanism for independence, the detail of which will depend on who is elected in the first Scottish elections and how separation negotiations go.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jambo1185

[redm]

 

I'll give you my facebook log in, have a wee look.

 

 

I have no idea what you could possibly mean. It'll all calm down in a few weeks I'm sure, then folk can get back to the serious business of sharing photos of their dinner and clicking stuff to prevent cancer.

[redm]

The fact that 'Prime Minister' Cameron hasnt stepped up to the plate to save the union is astonishing. Getting Osbourne, Alistair Darling & now Gordon Brown to do all the leg work in these last desperate hours is laughable. The Union & his party are on the verge and he seems to be anonymous.

 

Few people said to me that a no vote is as good as voting for the Tories.

 

It's really quite mad. He might not be well liked but he is the only one who could offer something meaningful after all. If they wanted to instill enough doubt to avert a Yes vote, that's really the only way to do it. We might still see that happen I suppose but they're probably banking on the Queen having the desired effect. An assessment of "who's considered least useless north of the border" is underway I'd think.

Edited September 9, 2014 by redm

[redm]

"Brown woos Scots with thrilling timetable"

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/brown-woos-scots-with-thrilling-timetable-2014090990353

[rossthejambo]

Well the you go, Labour are setting out heir proposals for a post No election.

 

How is that going to help win No votes though, Labour aren't anywhere near winning the next election so where's the guarantee that these powers will ever be granted?

[Groot]

 

 

 

I have no idea what you could possibly mean. It'll all calm down in a few weeks I'm sure, then folk can get back to the serious business of sharing photos of their dinner and clicking stuff to prevent cancer.

 

Will it?

 

I'm not saying there will be anarchy in the streets but some people have taken this whole thing to their hearts and if the vote doesn't go their way I can genuinely see there being a long lasting resentment

 

Me, I'm going to vote No but if it's a Yes then I'll just get my head down and get on with it until I can get a move to Norway

[Brandt]

"Brown woos Scots with thrilling timetable"

 

http://www.thedailym...e-2014090990353

 

Thats my complete memory of Gordon Brown as PM.

[redm]

Will it?

 

I'm not saying there will be anarchy in the streets but some people have taken this whole thing to their hearts and if the vote doesn't go their way I can genuinely see there being a long lasting resentment

 

Me, I'm going to vote No but if it's a Yes then I'll just get my head down and get on with it until I can get a move to Norway

 

Yeah, agreed... I was just specifically meaning Facebook there though.

And if we're being serious then no, I don't know what will happen afterwards, I just hope that it's peaceful. Whatever it is.

 

I can't see either side taking the decision too well either tbh. There's very strong feeling on either side and I can imagine campaigns continuing.

This element of the referendum saddens me a little, that the chances are we will end up with a good half of the population being left disappointed. That's not great.

[flecktimus]

If the Westminster Government wanted to give Scotland more powers why did they rip the Calman report apart.

[IMac]

 

 

How is that going to help win No votes though, Labour aren't anywhere near winning the next election so where's the guarantee that these powers will ever be granted?

 

ahead in the polls and the conservatives are o. the brink of collapse. Labour/lib dem coalition on the cards.

[Brandt]

ahead in the polls and the conservatives are o. the brink of collapse. Labour/lib dem coalition on the cards.

 

Labour would build a stronger coalition with the Greens. Osbourne is a parasite. He wont survive a yes vote either.

[Boris]

From the BBC

 

The BBC understands that the three pro-Union parties are to sign up to a pledge that a new Scotland Act - devolving further powers in the event of a No vote - will be included in the first Queen's Speech after the 2015 General Election.

Under former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown's timetable, draft legislation will be debated early next year at Westminster but it would not be enacted since there wouldn't be time before the election.

The promise for it to be included in the first Queen's Speech, without final details of what powers would be devolved, is designed to counter accusations that the commitment to additional powers may never reach the statute books.

 

Bold my own.

 

So no idea of what will be offered. While this may counter accusations regarding commitment to additional powers, it doesn't exactly guarantee what these powers may be. Sceptical, to say the least!

[eddiepolio]

 

 

How is that going to help win No votes though, Labour aren't anywhere near winning the next election so where's the guarantee that these powers will ever be granted?

 

look back a few pages, somebody posted out of 309 polls this year, labour have been ahead in 296 of them so not sure what you're basing your statement on?

[RosscoC]

@Ed_Miliband: We want cities, towns and villages across the UK to fly the Saltire and send a message to Scotland: stay with us.

 

Jesus wept.

[redm]

From the BBC

 

 

 

Bold my own.

 

So no idea of what will be offered. While this may counter accusations regarding commitment to additional powers, it doesn't exactly guarantee what these powers may be. Sceptical, to say the least!

 

@MavisDee: You have paid for a fish supper. Do you want all of it or would you like me to take it and give you an undisclosed number of chips? #indyref

 

This is the worst carrot EVER.

[The People's Chimp]

I'd offer the same but I had to de-friend most of them

 

One even linked the kidnapping of the Scottish boy by ISIS to a scare tactic to push people towards no

 

Last night there was the claim that because one hong kong bureau de change gives a higher price on scottish banknotes this is proof that "the scottish pound is already valued higher than sterling." The next sentence then said there would definitely be 'currency union' but with the benefit of a higher value 'scottish pound' due to oil.

[redm]

@Ed_Miliband: We want cities, towns and villages across the UK to fly the Saltire and send a message to Scotland: stay with us.

 

Jesus wept.

 

I'm ready for a baffling and very weird array of lovebombing over the next week.

It's all getting a bit undignified and awkward. Restraining orders may be required soon.

[EIEIO]

 

 

Well the you go, Labour are setting out heir proposals for a post No election.

Why announce 'new' plans after postal voting has begun they BT/Labour have had years to do this before now. The Westminster elite are panicking and despite using every media outlet bar the Sunday Herald to back their plans are staring defeat from the electorate in the face.

[Groot]

 

 

Last night there was the claim that because one hong kong bureau de change gives a higher price on scottish banknotes this is proof that "the scottish pound is already valued higher than sterling." The next sentence then said there would definitely be 'currency union' but with the benefit of a higher value 'scottish pound' due to oil.

 

I saw that too, I genuinely think we both need to review our friend lists!

[Boris]

@MavisDee: You have paid for a fish supper. Do you want all of it or would you like me to take it and give you an undisclosed number of chips? #indyref

 

This is the worst carrot EVER.

 

Hahaha. That's quite good!

[redm]

All it took was Ed with a saltire in a Liverpool and suddenly I forgot all about the years of Westminster, my aspirations for a fairer society, my desire to rid us of child poverty, Trident and foodbanks, my deep seated belief that self-determination is the way forward for Scotland.

 

 

What is this even meant to achieve?

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by redm

[Gabriel]

I see the Euro is down against the Dollar; Sterling apparently "plummeted" yesterday against the Dollar. It can surely only be the threat of an independent Scotland, possibly applying to join the EU at some distant date, which is wreaking such havoc with yet another global currency market. Wonder if this news will be reported?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Gabriel

[Boris]

All it took was Ed with a saltire in a Liverpool and suddenly I forgot all about the years of Westminster, my aspirations for a fairer society, my desire to rid us of child poverty, Trident and foodbanks, my deep seated belief that self-determination is the way forward for Scotland.

 

 

What is this even meant to achieve?

 

 

It's just all a bit patronising, isn't it?

[JamboX2]

If the Westminster Government wanted to give Scotland more powers why did they rip the Calman report apart.

 

They didn't. The Scotland Act 2012 is the legislative embodiment of that report. It'll be fully implemented by 2016.

[Gabriel]

I thought the expectation was that it was to be more than anthems and flag waving? At this rate, they'll all have to be pictured eating pizza suppers and deep-fried Mars bars ala pasty-tax. Pickles and Salmond in a gladiatorial head-to-head?

[john5698]

He's ultimately speaking on behalf of a Better Together, no? Albeit from a Labour standpoint setting out what they would do if in power, and certain processes all unionist parties are committed to.

 

Do people like Patrick Harvie (from a Green standpoint) and Elaine C Smith (from a SSP/minor celebrity standpoint), or your ordinary bloke in the street out canvassing, not have a right to speak on behalf of Yes? The a Green and SSP and even Labour for Independence picture if independence is very different from the White Paper.

 

I thought this wasn't a vote on the SNP, but on your logic they would be the only ones entitled to present the case for independence as the ones in power? Given there's no guarantee the SNP will be in power everything they say about independence is theoretical too.

Agree with this.

[JamboX2]

 

 

It's just all a bit patronising, isn't it?

 

See the Canada-Quebec love in 1995.

[The People's Chimp]

I thought the expectation was that it was to be more than anthems and flag waving? At this rate, they'll all have to be pictured eating pizza suppers and deep-fried Mars bars ala pasty-tax. Pickles and Salmond in a gladiatorial head-to-head?

 

The Man V Food referendum special featuring a Haggis Pakora face off between two political heavyweights.

[Gabriel]

The Man V Food referendum special featuring a Haggis Pakora face off between two political heavyweights.

 

Should have been on the ballot.

[IMac]

 

 

See the Canada-Quebec love in 1995.

 

I thought at the time this changed the tide. pollsters actually said it turned people off and was a detriment to the non merci campaign. they even advised bt against doing it.

 

I guess with gordons announcement last nihht this cpuld be an attempt for the ruk to show they are supporting scotland and the future within the uk.

 

we are really seeing a huge push to win the stageringly large 18% undecideds over. people default to the safe position so bt may just be doing enough to place doubt that a yes vote is worth the upheaval.

[IMac]

dp

Edited September 9, 2014 by IMac

[redm]

It's entirely typical of the BT campaign, especially the Westminster crew. No matter how much advice they're being given they consistently misjudge the key issues and the tone of the debate. If it wasn't an indication of something entirely dismissive (and that we might yet get stuck with) I'd be having a good old laugh at it. It's desperately pathetic.

 

Never mind engaging with us or facilitating proper political discourse about our future - just wave flags at us, that'll do the trick. FFS.

If it's not fearmongering or the worst dangling carrot in the world ever, it's blimmin flags. This hysteria phase is certainly going to be interesting.

 

Edit: mind you, all this nonsense shouldn't really come as that much of a shock. Speaking to the average joe has never really been their thing.

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by redm