Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[The Mighty Thor]

There's some magnificent leaps of logic bouncing about this morning. 

 

Austerity on steroids? 

 

Have you been in a coma since 2010? Oh and BTW there's another 10 years of it on the way regardless of which Tory party wins. 

 

Poverty. I'd suggest those wishing to discuss Poverty do a quick bit of Google-ing to see just how we got where we are. 

 

 

[TallPaul]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Independence Day + 1. So day after indy. 

 

Anyway, Thor is clearly on his "I'm alright, Jack" vibe this morning. His job will be fine so why worry about your own? 

So probably long after I'm dead seems cool. 

 

Indeed like why worry about employment, the economy, investments, pensions etc when we can all pay massive taxes and act all Scandinavian 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

How is it a bogus argument? People in Scotland can be employed by the public sector primarily serving people in other parts of the UK at sites based in Scotland. 

 

There's also potential security concerns that may come in to play depending on what type of sector he works in and working in what would newly be a foreign country. 

 

If Scotland were to go independent do you think all of those workers from HMRC or DWP for example will be allowed to continue working at a Scottish site indefinitely serving the public of England, Wales and Northern Ireland? Bearing in mind Scotland wouldn't need as large a civil service to service her own needs? 

 

Quite honestly you've debunked nothing and have taken your own personal experience based on the sector you work in and applied it across the board to say there's nowt to worry about. 

 

 

TP mentioned he consults in finance remotely for a London company. The biggest threat to his sector is not the SNP. 

 

Scotland would still have a Revenue & Customs function and a 'DWP' function. Those are not currently covered by Scot Gov. 

 

I couldn't comment on security concerns and what you'd perceive those to be?

 

Do you genuinely think that on ID+1 everything stops. There's no services, no supermarkets, no trade, no industry? There will still be jobs in Scotland. 

 

[manaliveits105]

Norway wank incoming 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

So probably long after I'm dead seems cool. 

 

Indeed like why worry about employment, the economy, investments, pensions etc when we can all pay massive taxes and act all Scandinavian 

You're already paying a higher tax burden than at any point in your life. 

 

Pensions had 400 billion wiped off them in a weekend. 

 

All on the current WM govts watch. 

 

I wish we were more like the Scandinavians. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Norway wank incoming 

and it has ! 😂

[BlueRiver]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

TP mentioned he consults in finance remotely for a London company. The biggest threat to his sector is not the SNP. 

 

Scotland would still have a Revenue & Customs function and a 'DWP' function. Those are not currently covered by Scot Gov. 

 

I couldn't comment on security concerns and what you'd perceive those to be?

 

Do you genuinely think that on ID+1 everything stops. There's no services, no supermarkets, no trade, no industry? There will still be jobs in Scotland. 

 

 

They aren't but Scotland would need substantially less staff to operate these services than are often employed within the civil service. There would be cuts or at the very least jobs moving out of Scotland as they serve the needs of other constituent UK nations. 

 

Depending on your job you may need certain security clearance that would rely on you living in the state you are working for. 

 

There will be jobs but not everyone's job's will be secure entirely. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

They aren't but Scotland would need substantially less staff to operate these services than are often employed within the civil service. There would be cuts or at the very least jobs moving out of Scotland as they serve the needs of other constituent UK nations. 

 

Depending on your job you may need certain security clearance that would rely on you living in the state you are working for. 

 

There will be jobs but not everyone's job's will be secure entirely. 

Is that different from today? 

 

Jobs are not and generally never have been secure in my 56 years. 

 

In terms of security clearance then fair enough but you'll be talking a vanishingly small number of jobs.

 

So could Scotland attract jobs or is that not possible after we leave the UK? 

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

What's the potential threat? Would the service you provide cease to exist on ID+1?  

I'm part of the UK team. My customers don't vanish on ID +1

 

By the sounds of it your career choice seems quite vulnerable to moving market forces. 

 

 

 

That's a good un.

 

I see the scaremongering & false logic  is in full force this morning. 

Edited April 7 by periodictabledancer

[Ulysses]

This is going about as well as can be expected. 

[periodictabledancer]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

This is going about as well as can be expected. 

You surely didn't expect anything else ?

 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

You surely didn't expect anything else ?

 

 

I expected it to go about as well as it has.   

 

I thought for one moment that the thread was about to take an unexpectedly reasonable course, but thankfully some solid defending by the JKB Massive has saved the day.   

[frankblack]

On 07/04/2024 at 11:36, The Mighty Thor said:

Is that different from today? 

 

Jobs are not and generally never have been secure in my 56 years. 

 

In terms of security clearance then fair enough but you'll be talking a vanishingly small number of jobs.

 

So could Scotland attract jobs or is that not possible after we leave the UK? 

 

The thing is that if a UK based firm was looking for employees then they would probably off shore the work to India.  That is what an independent Scotland would have to compete against.

 

A race to the bottom in terms of salaries and living standards.

[Gizmo]

On 07/04/2024 at 10:40, TallPaul said:

I'm not living in poverty are you?

The way you bleat on and on as if you are the only top-rate taxpayer in Scotland had me worried I'd need to step up my contribution to the food banks to prevent you starving. 
 

On 07/04/2024 at 10:59, The Mighty Thor said:

Far from it. 

 

I'm debunking an absolutely bogus argument. 

 

If TPs job is under threat it most certainly isn't from the SNP. 

It's probably more under threat from his superiors if he takes his lofty, smug attitude displayed  here into meetings. They must dread the morning flight into LCY.  
 

On 07/04/2024 at 11:08, TallPaul said:

So probably long after I'm dead seems cool. 

 

Indeed like why worry about employment, the economy, investments, pensions etc when we can all pay massive taxes and act all Scandinavian 

I'd rather adopt the Scandic approach than be tied to the Westminster approach tbh. Happy to pay my share to ensure we have a society worth living in for the many with decent public services. 

Happiness index 2023

Country	World Happiness Report Score 2023
Finland	7.80
Denmark	7.59
Iceland	7.53
Israel	7.47
Netherlands	7.40
Sweden	7.39
Norway	7.32

UK is 20th at 6.75 and dropping. 
 

36 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The thing is that if a UK based firm was looking for employees then they would probably off shore the work to India.  That is what an independent Scotland would have to compete against.

 

A race to the bottom in terms of salaries and living standards.

Yet there's independent Ireland with higher salaries than Scotland...🤔

Edited April 8 by Gizmo

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The thing is that if a UK based firm was looking for employees then they would probably off shore the work to India.  That is what an independent Scotland would have to compete against.

 

A race to the bottom in terms of salaries and living standards.

 

Wouldn't that already be happening? Wouldn't UK based firms already be off-shoreing jobs or are you suggesting that doesn't happen just now because it's the UK? 

 

You've not really thought this one through have you?

[XB52]

Nobody on here is saying everything will be rosy from ID+1, despite the unionists repeating this daily. What most independence supporters believe is that there is absolutely no reason why Scotland shouldn't be a successful country. 

[manaliveits105]

Shame we will never get the chance to find out - if anyone's not happy with their lot though why not move to Scandinavia or Ireland 👋

[periodictabledancer]

36 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Wouldn't that already be happening? Wouldn't UK based firms already be off-shoreing jobs or are you suggesting that doesn't happen just now because it's the UK? 

 

You've not really thought this one through have you?

Correct.

And it's worth pointing out, many UK companies that offshore to the likes of India have taken things back in house as it just hasnt worked out. B

[periodictabledancer]

11 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I expected it to go about as well as it has.   

 

I thought for one moment that the thread was about to take an unexpectedly reasonable course, but thankfully some solid defending by the JKB Massive has saved the day.   

😂

[pablo]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

Nobody on here is saying everything will be rosy from ID+1, despite the unionists repeating this daily. What most independence supporters believe is that there is absolutely no reason why Scotland shouldn't be a successful country. 

 

And not enough people agree that the risk is worth it to make it a majority view. Which is primarily the reason it's off the table for the foreseeable. 

[TallPaul]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

The way you bleat on and on as if you are the only top-rate taxpayer in Scotland had me worried I'd need to step up my contribution to the food banks to prevent you starving. 
 

It's probably more under threat from his superiors if he takes his lofty, smug attitude displayed  here into meetings. They must dread the morning flight into LCY.  
 

I'd rather adopt the Scandic approach than be tied to the Westminster approach tbh. Happy to pay my share to ensure we have a society worth living in for the many with decent public services. 

Happiness index 2023

Country	World Happiness Report Score 2023
Finland	7.80
Denmark	7.59
Iceland	7.53
Israel	7.47
Netherlands	7.40
Sweden	7.39
Norway	7.32

UK is 20th at 6.75 and dropping. 
 

Yet there's independent Ireland with higher salaries than Scotland...🤔

Gizmo the wee fantasist. When's Indy happening? You backing Hamas Yousaf to lead you all the way?

[XB52]

38 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

And not enough people agree that the risk is worth it to make it a majority view. Which is primarily the reason it's off the table for the foreseeable. 

About 50% want independence despite 95% of msm being unionist. 

[Japan Jambo]

6 minutes ago, XB52 said:

About 50% want independence despite 95% of msm being unionist. 

 

A quick look at Wiki suggests The National has a paid circulation of around 3,210. If separatists can't even show enough interest in their own in-house comic how do you expect MSM to pivot their product to a place where there is clearly no demand?

[periodictabledancer]

28 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

A quick look at Wiki suggests The National has a paid circulation of around 3,210. If separatists can't even show enough interest in their own in-house comic how do you expect MSM to pivot their product to a place where there is clearly no demand?

He didn't say he expected MSM to do anything of the sort. Good try though.

And quite what newspaper readership has to do with anything ...🤷‍♂️

 

Although if you did want to build a case founded  on readership numbers (or lack of) , MSM sales are collapsing and it's good to see the likes of the Daily ****** should soon be out of business. 

Edited April 8 by periodictabledancer

[XB52]

45 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

He didn't say he expected MSM to do anything of the sort. Good try though.

And quite what newspaper readership has to do with anything ...🤷‍♂️

 

Although if you did want to build a case founded  on readership numbers (or lack of) , MSM sales are collapsing and it's good to see the likes of the Daily ****** should soon be out of business. 

👍👍

[pablo]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

About 50% want independence despite 95% of msm being unionist. 

 

It's just not a priority for enough people to change anything. The whole topic has become increasingly moot. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Jim_Duncan said:

So about 50% want to stay in the UK despite the main independence party being in power for well over a decade?

Correct 

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

It's just not a priority for enough people to change anything. The whole topic has become increasingly moot. 

Correct 👍 

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's just not a priority for enough people to change anything. The whole topic has become increasingly moot. 

On the basis that polls show 50% of people want something (and assuming the other 50% are opposed to that something) , it is certainly anything but moot.

 

[pablo]

19 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

On the basis that polls show 50% of people want something (and assuming the other 50% are opposed to that something) , it is certainly anything but moot.

 

 

No, it really is. You should go seek out the surveys on where people rank the constitutional question alongside other topics, and what happens to support for Independence when the impact is monetised.

[XB52]

24 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's just not a priority for enough people to change anything. The whole topic has become increasingly moot. 

50% want independence and the SNP keep winning elections so it's certainly not moot. The biggest issue is how can independence be achieved when the unionist parties in Westminster refuse to allow it. If we had even a semblance of a balanced media in Scotland perhaps Westminster would be forced to allow another independence vote.

 

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, XB52 said:

50% want independence and the SNP keep winning elections so it's certainly not moot. The biggest issue is how can independence be achieved when the unionist parties in Westminster refuse to allow it. If we had even a semblance of a balanced media in Scotland perhaps Westminster would be forced to allow another independence vote.

 

 

Why would Westminster allow it when we've already been asked and nothing has changed in terms of support? 

 

Assuming SNP support collapses at the next elections, what would your position be? 

 

The biggest issue blocking the break up of the UK is that not enough people are in favour of it.

Edited April 8 by pablo

[XB52]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Why would Westminster allow it when we've already when asked and nothing has changed in terms of support? 

 

Assuming SNP support collapses at the next elections, what would your position be? 

 

The biggest issue blocking the break up of the UK is that not enough people are in favour of it.

And that's why I hardly ever post on this topic, you can't get a reasonable discussion. I'll pop back next month

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Why would Westminster allow it when we've already been asked and nothing has changed in terms of support? 

 

Assuming SNP support collapses at the next elections, what would your position be? 

 

The biggest issue blocking the break up of the UK is that not enough people are in favour of it.

Wish we would have another  with the proviso , not another one for 20 years , obviously if it’s a no . . It’s a totally destabilising , divisive issue . As others have said if any party can evidence good Governance and the economy , health , education are doing well then the no voters might consider changing to Yes . A positive message about a “ prosperous “ Scotland and not the constant hate and vitriol against England and Westminster . 

[Dawnrazor]

21 minutes ago, XB52 said:

And that's why I hardly ever post on this topic, you can't get a reasonable discussion. I'll pop back next month

How was pablo's reply not "reasonable"?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Tom Arthur Snr.

 

The SNP is hoaching with vermin

 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

3 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

He didn't say he expected MSM to do anything of the sort. Good try though.

And quite what newspaper readership has to do with anything ...🤷‍♂️

 

Although if you did want to build a case founded  on readership numbers (or lack of) , MSM sales are collapsing and it's good to see the likes of the Daily ****** should soon be out of business. 

Good offer on print subscriptions 

 

Subscriptions | Subscribe to The Daily Mail & MailOnline - The Mail (mailsubscriptions.co.uk)

 

 

[Gizmo]

4 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Gizmo the wee fantasist. When's Indy happening? You backing Hamas Yousaf to lead you all the way?

100% touched a nerve. Nice. 

[frankblack]

6 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Yet there's independent Ireland with higher salaries than Scotland...🤔

 

Wait.  You think Ireland, who went independent after WW1 - a hundred plus years ago - is comparable to Scotland?

 

Scotland would neither be in the UK nor EU with a huge starting debt.  The worst of both worlds.

 

6 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Wouldn't that already be happening? Wouldn't UK based firms already be off-shoreing jobs or are you suggesting that doesn't happen just now because it's the UK? 

 

It already is happening.  I work in such a firm in Finance which is headquartered in London.  Whole sections of the business was moved to India.

 

Why would firms like this need to keep the jobs in Scotland when they are operating under UK law for UK customers and focused on the City of London? 

 

An independent Scotland would be competing with India to retain its current jobs.  Tens of thousand will no doubt go overseas or to the rest of the UK.

 

Essential staff will be offered relocation packages.

 

Please explain what would be attractive about an independent Scotland to move jobs here when its cheaper overseas?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Because it didn’t chime with XB52’s outlook. 

Yep. So much for a sensible debate on this issue . 

[TallPaul]

12 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

100% touched a nerve. Nice. 

When's it happening Gizmo?

[The Mighty Thor]

22 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Wait.  You think Ireland, who went independent after WW1 - a hundred plus years ago - is comparable to Scotland?

 

Scotland would neither be in the UK nor EU with a huge starting debt.  The worst of both worlds.

 

 

It already is happening.  I work in such a firm in Finance which is headquartered in London.  Whole sections of the business was moved to India.

 

Why would firms like this need to keep the jobs in Scotland when they are operating under UK law for UK customers and focused on the City of London? 

 

An independent Scotland would be competing with India to retain its current jobs.  Tens of thousand will no doubt go overseas or to the rest of the UK.

 

Essential staff will be offered relocation packages.

 

Please explain what would be attractive about an independent Scotland to move jobs here when its cheaper overseas?

It's already happening. 

 

Whole sections have moved to India already whilst Scotland is still in the UK?

 

So Scotland, in the UK, is competing with India and jobs have already gone? 

 

I'm struggling to see what's attractive in London based finance jobs when they're all being off shored to India under the UKs watch. 

[periodictabledancer]

41 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Wait.  You think Ireland, who went independent after WW1 - a hundred plus years ago - is comparable to Scotland?

 

Scotland would neither be in the UK nor EU with a huge starting debt.  The worst of both worlds.

 

 

It already is happening.  I work in such a firm in Finance which is headquartered in London.  Whole sections of the business was moved to India.

 

Why would firms like this need to keep the jobs in Scotland when they are operating under UK law for UK customers and focused on the City of London? 

 

An independent Scotland would be competing with India to retain its current jobs.  Tens of thousand will no doubt go overseas or to the rest of the UK.

 

Essential staff will be offered relocation packages.

 

Please explain what would be attractive about an independent Scotland to move jobs here when its cheaper overseas?

You make this sound like some recent innovation : it's been happening for decades.

You last sentence is complete nonsense - who's saying jobs would move to Scotland IN ANY EVENT  if it's cheaper to off shore?  It has absolutely nothing to do with independence. 

PS I see you're asking (irrelevant) questions again after refusing to answer any put to you  yesterday, 

 

Edited April 8 by periodictabledancer

[periodictabledancer]

53 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

100% touched a nerve. Nice. 

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

You make this sound like some recent innovation : it's been happening for decades.

You last sentence is complete nonsense - who's saying jobs would move to Scotland IN ANY EVENT  if it's cheaper to off shore?  It has absolutely nothing to do with independence. 

PS I see you're asking (irrelevant) questions again after refusing to answer any put to you  yesterday, 

 

 

You are flapping.

 

The fact is that the majority of financial service jobs are centred around the City of London.

 

The jobs will move out of Scotland after independence.  You are in denial if you think otherwise.

[periodictabledancer]

3 hours ago, pablo said:

 

No, it really is. You should go seek out the surveys on where people rank the constitutional question alongside other topics, and what happens to support for Independence when the impact is monetised.

It really isn't, no matter how much you might convince yourself , no matter how many times you say it. 

You seem to miss the point : people are being asked what they want the most, in simple terms.

That doesn't mean they don't want independence - you just need to accept that and the fact it isn't going to stop. Support may indeed be on the wane currently (it has been at a much lower ebb in previous decades) but that's life. 

As for the "monetisation" - I'm not getting into this again except to say the guy unionists LOVE to quote (who was deliberatley misquoted by the Telegraph and about which he voiced his displeasure publicly ) actually changed his mind - he says  given the  damage being inflicted by brexit , he'd now favour independence. That too is life. 

"when the facts change , so does my opinion", I think he said. 

 

Edited April 8 by periodictabledancer

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are flapping.

 

The fact is that the majority of financial service jobs are centred around the City of London.

 

The jobs will move out of Scotland after independence.  You are in denial if you think otherwise.

I said off-shoring has been happening for decades. You've interpreted it in a way to suit you. Hardly "flapping". 

If jobs can be off-shored, they will be . Regardless. 

 

[frankblack]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

It really isn't, no matter how much you might convince yourself , no matter how many times you say it. 

You seem to miss the point : people are being asked what they want the most, in simple terms.

That doesn't mean they don't want independence - you just need to accept that and the fact it isn't going to stop. Support may indeed be on the wane currently (it has been at a much lower ebb in previous decades) but that's life. 

As for the "monetisation" - I'm not getting into this again except to say the guy unionists LOVE to quote (who was deliberatley misquoted by the Telegraph and about which he voiced his displeasure publicly ) actually changed his mind - he says  given the  damage being inflicted by brexit , he'd now favour independence. That too is life. 

"when the facts change , so does my opinion", I think he said. 

 

 

Ever heard of paragraphs?

 

What financial modelling have the Nationalists produced for possible economic circumstances post independence?

 

You'll get your arses handed to you like Sturgeon and co got off Andrew Neil around previous elections unless they can provide credible policies to scrutinise.

[frankblack]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

I said off-shoring has been happening for decades. You've interpreted it in a way to suit you. Hardly "flapping". 

If jobs can be off-shored, they will be . Regardless. 

 

 

Not just off-shored, transferred to the remaining parts of the UK.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

8 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

It really isn't, no matter how much you might convince yourself , no matter how many times you say it. 

You seem to miss the point : people are being asked what they want the most, in simple terms.

That doesn't mean they don't want independence - you just need to accept that and the fact it isn't going to stop. Support may indeed be on the wane currently (it has been at a much lower ebb in previous decades) but that's life. 

As for the "monetisation" - I'm not getting into this again except to say the guy unionists LOVE to quote (who was deliberatley misquoted by the Telegraph and about which he voiced his displeasure publicly ) actually changed his mind - he says  given the  damage being inflicted by brexit , he'd now favour independence. That too is life. 

"when the facts change , so does my opinion", I think he said. 

 

the independence movement will gather pace again but not for a good while, primarily because the only party in any sort of position to deliver it are a busted flush and in disarray 

[periodictabledancer]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ever heard of paragraphs?

 

What financial modelling have the Nationalists produced for possible economic circumstances post independence?

 

You'll get your arses handed to you like Sturgeon and co got off Andrew Neil around previous elections unless they can provide credible policies to scrutinise.

You seem upset Frank ?

And ironically, I see you're asking questions AGAIN, after refusing to answer those I put to you last night : so don't expect me to bother doing something you refuse to do. 

 

What economic modelling would you want the SNP to do ?*

With EU membership (2014) ?

Post brexit , (2016)

Based on what prices for oil ?

 

SO that would be THREE vastly different economic models that would been generated between 2014 and 2022.

And you work in financial services ? 

 

* In any case , aren't  unionists against SNP spending money on anything to do with independence ? 

 

Edited April 8 by periodictabledancer