The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[itsnomarooned]

4 years ago I paid ?120K cash for a flat. I had to get my solicitor to prove with the bank where the money came from before the purchase was allowed to proceed. I was also questioned by the the Bank when i deposited ?20k cash into my account and had to give a credible reason where I got the cash from. I'm surprised nobody questioned Whyte where he got ?18m from. 

Which was?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Rangers had no future. SDM knew it. They already had massive debts and the tax bills were coming down the track. His personal HBOS piggy bank had been reigned in - no more handouts. THIS bank was hell bent on getting it's money back. The club had effectively been in administration for years but the media and the SFA just ignored that. 

 

The club was facing extinction - it was just a matter of time and SDM knew it. IMO, he wanted out of Rangers otherwise he would be the captain that went down with his ship.This is after all he had said and done at Rangers - he wanted to destroy Celtic but all he did was destroy Rangers. He needed to get out , at any price. 

 

SDM had absolute power at Ibrox and no one questioned anything he said or did - certainly not the media.

 

King a Rangers man ? He is/was a chancer. 

 

Everyone knew what was going to happen to Rangers and they knew what kind of character Whyte was (helped by the fact he lived far away in Monaco). 

 

Hence why Murray didn't want to be left without a chair when the music stopped, he needed a 'patsy' and needed one PDQ.

 

Murray is on record as saying that he was duped, that he never knew anything about Craig Whyte, never knew that he'd mortgaged Rangers' future season tickets away blah blah blah.

 

Murray knew Whyte's old man, Murray would have had access to inside business information about Whyte, stuff that you or I could never get access to, Murray had used Ticketus previously, yet nobody at Ticketus emailed or phoned Murray to inform him that Craig Whyte had just asked for a loan of ?26m in exchange for the next 3 years worth of season tickets and this was before he'd bought the club.

 

Aided and abetted by a complicit media who won't ask awkward questions and the most gullible fans in the World, Murray banked on getting an easy ride from them when the inevitable happened, and that is exactly what has happened.

[Don Dan]

Which was?

Cash put aside to help fund my retirement.

[CollyWolly]

The letter from the lawyers didn't say he had access to the cash, it specifically said that he had lodged the funds with them.

So surely if he hasn't lodged the funds at that stage that's the lawyers who are culpable, not Whyte. Whyte has produced a promisory note or guarantee of some kind from Ticketus stating funds are imminent or promised and The Lawyers have jumped the gun and told the Rangers board/SDM/Lloyds that they have the funds in place. Its a moot point what they said really because very clearly they did have the funds at some stage very soon after and they did clear the debt.

Edited April 25, 2017 by CollyWolly

[Hagar the Horrible]

Seen this list of Sevco players contracts that started floating about earlier today  (maybe yesterday) ?

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wmcxaq&s=9#.WP88JO-GPcs

Its roughly accurate, but in reality most of that team are worth 2k per week, Rangers are having to pay 5x the odds for the same standard as every other mid table SPFL club, paying them 12k per week does not make them that quality of player.  To compete with Celtic they need 12k per week players, which would cost them 60k per week to get them to put pen to paper.

 

The sheep and us have one or two players who are 12k per week but we might only be paying them 2k per week as we develop them into this standard.  I would not offer anybody other than their keeper more than the national minimal wage.

 

The rest of the league needs to wake up and smell the coffee, they used to take your best players and pay peanuts in transfer money and give them a decent standard, but now they take average players pay way over the odds, and guys instantly forgetable.  WE no longer have to worry about their past policy of weakening your team to play your best players from the bench.  Thay have to play our ex players who we release,  times have changed.

[269miles]

Going off at a slight tangent. Court records now showing that Ibrox needed ?1.7 million spent on it - and that was six years ago. That work was never completed if I'm reading this right. 

 

How the hell can Ibrox be fit for for purpose ? 

[Don Dan]

Going off at a slight tangent. Court records now showing that Ibrox needed ?1.7 million spent on it - and that was six years ago. That work was never completed if I'm reading this right. 

 

How the hell can Ibrox be fit for for purpose ? 

 

 

Blind Eyes and brown envelopes  :usualbet:

[John Findlay]

So it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that SDM had meet with and or knew Craig Whyte prior to him buying deadco?

The following is wholly supposition on my part. SDM was only ever going to sell to CW. CW bought Sevco for a pound. SDM gave him 2 million for doing so, for being the Patsy. Hopefully in time SDM will get his comeuppance.

[Bazzas right boot]

What effect does it have on rangers.

 

I don't really care if whyte walks or goes to jail.

 

What the result of a guilty/ non guilty verdict on ranger's as they are atm.

[Boris]

What effect does it have on rangers.

 

I don't really care if whyte walks or goes to jail.

 

What the result of a guilty/ non guilty verdict on ranger's as they are atm.

 

Wondering if the SDM connection, and the previous board (King, Paul (?)Murray ect) , gets brought up a lot, could it somehow impicated the current lot as a phoenix company?  Sevco liable for oldco big tax case liabilities?

 

Probably not, but just wondering.

 

And the whereabouts of "ra deeds" may become clearer too.

 

Or not.  Sheer speculation on mypart.

[JJ1984]

What effect does it have on rangers.

 

I don't really care if whyte walks or goes to jail.

 

What the result of a guilty/ non guilty verdict on ranger's as they are atm.

 

Zero I would imagine.  Apart from the laughs to be had at the rage that will be incoming if Whyte gets off plus less credibility of former Rangers associates. 

[269miles]

The following is wholly supposition on my part. SDM was only ever going to sell to CW. CW bought Sevco for a pound. SDM gave him 2 million for doing so, for being the Patsy. Hopefully in time SDM will get his comeuppance.

SDM knew his old man , from what I've read over the years. Strange that when you Google "Thomas Whyte" it's obvious stuff has been removed from Google.Now why would that be ? 

[269miles]

Is Findlay making progress in showing that Rangers acted less than openly and honestly with Whyte ? 

 

Sorry - I don't have Twitter but Dolemans Tweets look interesting.

[jambovambo]

James Doleman? @jamesdoleman 46s46 seconds ago

 

• McIntyre agrees Rangers "had no defence" over HMRC "small tax case

TheTributeAct? @TheTributeAct 16s16 seconds ago

• UEFA license and sporting advantage gained. There can be no excuses now. #stripthetitles https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/856869404700749824 ?

 

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by jambovambo

[Bazzas right boot]

Zero I would imagine. Apart from the laughs to be had at the rage that will be incoming if Whyte gets off plus less credibility of former Rangers associates.

That's dissapionting!

[Bazzas right boot]

Wondering if the SDM connection, and the previous board (King, Paul (?)Murray ect) , gets brought up a lot, could it somehow impicated the current lot as a phoenix company? Sevco liable for oldco big tax case liabilities?

 

Probably not, but just wondering.

 

And the whereabouts of "ra deeds" may become clearer too.

 

Or not. Sheer speculation on mypart.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

[Mikey1874]

What effect does it have on rangers.

 

I don't really care if whyte walks or goes to jail.

 

What the result of a guilty/ non guilty verdict on ranger's as they are atm.

Could trash King's reputation (even more)

[Meadows]

A couple off differing points;

Firstly, The wage bill is a staggering ?200k PER WEEK , purely for first team . Not to mention management and coaches etc . Add to that Employers tax, insurance and pensions . Surely ?300k weekly is accurate and impossible to balance ?

Secondly, why didn't the likes of Paul Murray , King, Park and others do similiar to Whyte and go ticketus for ?20m and takeover their beloved club personally ?

[Don Dan]

Meanwhile the idiocy continues. 

 

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/rangers-need-to-spend-50m-to-catch-celtic-says-ibrox-legend-1-4428859

[Bazzas right boot]

Meanwhile the idiocy continues.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/rangers-need-to-spend-50m-to-catch-celtic-says-ibrox-legend-1-4428859

Gies ?50m.

 

They had a chance to reset and do things over the long term. They ****ed it, please gimmes money to fix the problems I've caused, again.

 

Thank Ann we are away from that nonesense now.

[John Findlay]

There will be Sevconians who read that and regard Willie Henderson as a traitor for saying what he has with regard to Celtic and all he has done is state a truth.

[Paolo]

Meanwhile the idiocy continues.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/rangers-need-to-spend-50m-to-catch-celtic-says-ibrox-legend-1-4428859

Ally McCoist wanted a similar amount to compete in the lower leagues.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Meanwhile the idiocy continues. 

 

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/rangers-need-to-spend-50m-to-catch-celtic-says-ibrox-legend-1-4428859

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Unbelievable. Just when you think they couldn't get any dumber.

[hearts related nickname]

From reading the tweets from the court my understanding is that Whytes defense is going to be that Murray knew what he was doing all along. Murray suggested that Whytes get the cash from ticketus and pay the debt that way. It's been inferred and not denied that rangers were already using ticketus for working capital towards the end.

They knew they were in the shit and had been for a long time and kept plodding along in a sea of shit until they needed a way to get out with their heads held high. Queue Mr Whyte as a pansy. For Murray to take Rangers where he took them and take them to admin was unthinkable.

Genuinely cannot wait to hear Whytes accounts of the shenanigans. This is only the beginning, I'd imagine there are going to be a few more fraud trials in the future

[Jambo 4 Ever]

From reading the tweets from the court my understanding is that Whytes defense is going to be that Murray knew what he was doing all along. Murray suggested that Whytes get the cash from ticketus and pay the debt that way. It's been inferred and not denied that rangers were already using ticketus for working capital towards the end.

They knew they were in the shit and had been for a long time and kept plodding along in a sea of shit until they needed a way to get out with their heads held high. Queue Mr Whyte as a pansy. For Murray to take Rangers where he took them and take them to admin was unthinkable.

Genuinely cannot wait to hear Whytes accounts of the shenanigans. This is only the beginning, I'd imagine there are going to be a few more fraud trials in the future

Will they be questioning Murray too?

[hearts related nickname]

Will they be questioning Murray too?

No idea but he surely must be. That's if they can find him under the rock he's currently hiding under

[jambovambo]

Will they be questioning Murray too?

Something fishy if neither side doesn't feel the need to question him.

 

However ... can you see it happening ?

Edited April 25, 2017 by jambovambo

[The Comedian]

As long as the court has a ramp, I don't see why not.

[CollyWolly]

 

Genuinely cannot wait to hear Whytes accounts of the shenanigans. This is only the beginning, I'd imagine there are going to be a few more fraud trials in the future

I'd be very surprised if he gives evidence. Means he will have to answer questions he may not wish to answer.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

I'd be very surprised if he gives evidence. Means he will have to answer questions he may not wish to answer.

I think there can be little doubt that Whyte intends to enter the witness box, he has presented the court with thousands of pages of evidence that won't be heard if he doesn't allow himself to be examined. The case is expected, according to Lady Stacey, to last for 12 weeks, so someone must have a lot to say, and Craigy boy just loves an audience!

[Footballfirst]

I think there can be little doubt that Whyte intends to enter the witness box, he has presented the court with thousands of pages of evidence that won't be heard if he doesn't allow himself to be examined. The case is expected, according to Lady Stacey, to last for 12 weeks, so someone must have a lot to say, and Craigy boy just loves an audience!

 

I can't see it. There is too much to lose.  In previous cases when he appeared in the witness box, he didn't come across very well and was very nervous under questioning.  The key witnesses are likely to be SDM and the Ticketus representatives.

 

Thus far it's all been about setting the scene .  Prentice attempting o show that the club just needed investment and Whyte breaking his promises from the SPA. On the other hand Findlay is attempting to show that the club was a basket case, with Lloyds desperate to get out and Murray Group avoiding spending any money in the lead up to the sale, but cutting the price to ?1 to avoid the risk of the sale falling through.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Footballfirst

[The Gasman]

I'd be very surprised if he gives evidence. Means he will have to answer questions he may not wish to answer.

In Scottish law, is there an equivalent to the American 5th Amendment where you don't have to answer question as a witness in court that could harm your own defence in any future hearing where you were the accused..?

[Unknown user]

No. Not in Scotland to my memory.

 

You can be charged with contempt of court, which more than likely will lead to a spot in jail.

 

There's the right to silence however, and this applies to England & Wales under English Law:

 

"The right to remain silent is a legal right recognized, explicitly or by convention, in many of the world's legal systems.

 

The right covers a number of issues centered on the right of the accused or the defendant to refuse to comment or provide an answer when questioned, either prior to or during legal proceedings in a court of law. This can be the right to avoid self-incrimination or the right to remain silent when questioned. The right usually includes the provision that adverse comments or inferences cannot be made by the judge or jury regarding the refusal by a defendant to answer questions before or during a trial, hearing or any other legal proceeding. This right constitutes only a small part of the defendant's rights as a whole."

 

Wikipedia.

As far as I understand it, the right to silence is a fundamental tenet of Scottish law, and that unlike most of europe, guilt cannot be inferred from silence.

 

EDIT for the accused anyway, a witness can't remain silent, they would indeed be charged with contempt

Edited April 26, 2017 by Smithee

[Dunks]

Not really bothered if he's found guilty or not - just enjoying the show

[DETTY29]

As far as I understand it, the right to silence is a fundamental tenet of Scottish law, and that unlike most of europe, guilt cannot be inferred from silence.

 

EDIT for the accused anyway, a witness can't remain silent, they would indeed be charged with contempt

Considering Whyte isn't known for his complete honesty, it might be best he doesn't take the stand to be cross examined.

 

I really do hope Murray is called and his reputation trashed (even more) by Findlay.

 

I recall an interview when he said along the lines of 'whatever Rangers do, it will be the right thing'

 

And Findlay to ask what Rangers and Murray's benchmark is?  'May I suggest lower than a snake's belly'

[Beni]

From reading the tweets from the court my understanding is that Whytes defense is going to be that Murray knew what he was doing all along. Murray suggested that Whytes get the cash from ticketus and pay the debt that way. It's been inferred and not denied that rangers were already using ticketus for working capital towards the end.

They knew they were in the shit and had been for a long time and kept plodding along in a sea of shit until they needed a way to get out with their heads held high. Queue Mr Whyte as a pansy. For Murray to take Rangers where he took them and take them to admin was unthinkable.

Genuinely cannot wait to hear Whytes accounts of the shenanigans. This is only the beginning, I'd imagine there are going to be a few more fraud trials in the future

 

 

Granted Whyte is a bit camp, but even in Brexit Britain that's not a crime.

 

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

I can't see it. There is too much to lose.  In previous cases when he appeared in the witness box, he didn't come across very well and was very nervous under questioning.  The key witnesses are likely to be SDM and the Ticketus representatives.

 

Thus far it's all been about setting the scene .  Prentice attempting o show that the club just needed investment and Whyte breaking his promises from the SPA. On the other hand Findlay is attempting to show that the club was a basket case, with Lloyds desperate to get out and Murray Group avoiding spending any money in the lead up to the sale, but cutting the price to ?1 to avoid the risk of the sale falling through.

You may be right, but his evidence, all alleged 8,000 pages, will not be admissible if he doesn't take the stand, for the prosecution would be unable to cross-examine him to test the provenance of the evidence - unless Findlay can find some other way of presenting it. If he can present it without Whyte taking the stand then obviously that'd be the way to go. Wow David Murray first up today!

[Shrekeo]

Sir Minty takes to the witness box!

[jambovambo]

Woop !

 

(Predictive txt had "wood" - glad I spotted that...)

[Justin Z]

Woop !

 

(Predictive txt had "wood" - glad I spotted that...)

 

There's an American expression, "take him to the woodshed". I hope that's exactly how it goes.

[jambovambo]

We knew this but ...

 

James Doleman? @jamesdoleman 3m3 minutes ago

 

 

"I was actually an Ayr United supporter" Murray tells the court

[DETTY29]

Sir Minty takes to the witness box!

Well that's me hooked for another 2, or 3 or 4 days.

[JJ1984]

Ayr Utd     

[Mr Sifter]

Sir David Murray in the witness box...in a court case surrounding the (allegedly) illegal sale of a near bankrupt Rangers?

 

Maybe folk were right earlier when they suggested this thread had run its course.

 

ELL OH ELL

 

The next few days are gonnae be VERY interesting :-)

[jambovambo]

Sir David Murray in the witness box...in a court case surrounding the (allegedly) illegal sale of a near bankrupt Rangers?

 

Maybe folk were right earlier when they suggested this thread had run its course.

 

ELL OH ELL

 

The next few days are gonnae be VERY interesting :-)

Isn't it an allegedly illegal purchase, rather than sale ?

 

But I agree.

 

And people said this thread should be closed.

 

And where are our guest Sevco fans ? (sssshhh ... )

[CollyWolly]

I think there can be little doubt that Whyte intends to enter the witness box, he has presented the court with thousands of pages of evidence that won't be heard if he doesn't allow himself to be examined. The case is expected, according to Lady Stacey, to last for 12 weeks, so someone must have a lot to say, and Craigy boy just loves an audience!

He can present documents in his defence without giving evidence, as long as he has listed then with the prosecution and some other witness can authenticate them or speak credibly about them. If the prosecution wanted to object to documents entered they would have to have done so by now.

 

I believe Mr Findlay will represent, at the end of the prosecution case, that there is no case to answer.

If that doesn't succeed its still an enormous risk to put Whyte in the box, although it would be potentially EXPLOSIVE, the only benefit to Whyte is its likely he takes others down with him.

Edited April 26, 2017 by CollyWolly

[CollyWolly]

In Scottish law, is there an equivalent to the American 5th Amendment where you don't have to answer question as a witness in court that could harm your own defence in any future hearing where you were the accused..?

yes there is indeed. But refusing to answer questions on the grounds that the answer may be self incriminating, although perfectly legal, sends a huge message to any jury.

 

We might well hear David Murray use that doctrine in the next few days

Edited April 26, 2017 by CollyWolly

[Unknown user]

yes there is indeed. But refusing to answer questions on the grounds that the answer may be self incriminating, although perfectly legal, sends a huge message to any jury.

 

We might well hear David Murray use that doctrine in the next few days

The jury aren't allowed to infer anything negative from silence, unlike in most of europe.

[Lovecraft]

Boom!

 

 

James Doleman? @jamesdoleman  3m3 minutes ago

More

Murray on EBTs: "Gave us the opportunity to get players we otherwise couldn't afford" #WhyteTrial

[Shug73]

 

Boom!

 

 

James Doleman? @jamesdoleman  3m3 minutes ago

More

Murray on EBTs: "Gave us the opportunity to get players we otherwise couldn't afford" #WhyteTrial

 

 

Aye, but no unfair sporting advantage (snigger)