shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 So I was right ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I don't think they thought it was dodgy. Rangers and their advisors have no doubt made a complete arse of this but I don't for a second think they knew what they were involved in was illegal. I guess we will probably never know the real truth, DH. I would suspect that they thought through a loop hole they were bending the rules. They are not the only club though that the tax man is after for doing the same. I suspect this was no secret, that other clubs weighed things up and decided that it was not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I would be astonished if Rangers advisors did not draw Rangers attention to the risks involved with the scheme. It is what all professional advisors do. "On the one hand ..., on the other ... , but on balance our opinion is that ...". I suspect Rangers heard what they wanted to hear. There is every chance this may have been the way it happened. I suppose only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I would be astonished if Rangers advisors did not draw Rangers attention to the risks involved with the scheme. It is what all professional advisors do. "On the one hand ..., on the other ... , but on balance our opinion is that ...". I suspect Rangers heard what they wanted to hear. I think Murray would have gone into it fully aware that he could get his fingers burned, but expected much more success, particularly in Europe, than they achieved: hoping to get millions more into the coffers to deal with any fallout from the taxman. In the event, when the taxman came calling, they didn't have the wherewithall to deal with the bill and tried to brazen it out resulting in the huge penalties. In short, Murray decided to speculate, but Rangers failled to accumulate, enough, at least, to pay the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I guess we will probably never know the real truth, DH. I would suspect that they thought through a loop hole they were bending the rules. They are not the only club though that the tax man is after for doing the same. I suspect this was no secret, that other clubs weighed things up and decided that it was not worth the risk. What they should have done was buy a crappy little club in an Eastern European country where the income tax was relatively low and.....well you know the rest. They've tried to be clever rather than break the law but have quite possibly got it very very wrong. Which is completely different to the manager of Juventus phoning Mario the referee boss and ask him to award the Milan derby to Roberto the dodgy ref etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 What they should have done was buy a crappy little club in an Eastern European country where the income tax was relatively low and.....well you know the rest. They've tried to be clever rather than break the law but have quite possibly got it very very wrong. Which is completely different to the manager of Juventus phoning Mario the referee boss and ask him to award the Milan derby to Roberto the dodgy ref etc. Roberto was 20G in the hole - they were going to take his bistro off him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Roberto was 20G in the hole - they were going to take his bistro off him. A damn shame that. He should have paid his waiters using this EBT scheme thats kicking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Good post about the dilema faced by the SFA & SPL if a newco RFC seeks immediate an licence and admittance to the SPL. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-problems-facing-the-sfa-if-rangers-fall-into-insolvency-a-guest-post-by-brogan-rogan-trevino-and-hogan/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Good post about the dilema faced by the SFA & SPL if a newco RFC seeks immediate an licence and admittance to the SPL. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-problems-facing-the-sfa-if-rangers-fall-into-insolvency-a-guest-post-by-brogan-rogan-trevino-and-hogan/ Interesting stuff FF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Good post about the dilema faced by the SFA & SPL if a newco RFC seeks immediate an licence and admittance to the SPL. http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-problems-facing-the-sfa-if-rangers-fall-into-insolvency-a-guest-post-by-brogan-rogan-trevino-and-hogan/ I think we should ask DH instead. He always has the definitive word... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I think we should ask DH instead. He always has the definitive word... Can't you just let it go....? You're behaving like a spoilt bairn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I think we should ask DH instead. He always has the definitive word... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Seems certain that Rangers would have been made well aware of potential illegality: This is a case of the Directors deliberately seeking a financial advantage over all competitors which they have been warned in advance may well be unlawful and have sanctions and penalties. DH was maybe being a bit naive (or disingenuous). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Isnt it a shame that we have to wait for bloggers to write detailed, interesting analysis of the situation. Journalism in Scotland doesnt exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Can't you just let it go....? You're behaving like a spoilt bairn! Sorry, was being sarky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Isnt it a shame that we have to wait for bloggers to write detailed, interesting analysis of the situation. Journalism in Scotland doesnt exist. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Seems certain that Rangers would have been made well aware of potential illegality: DH was maybe being a bit naive (or disingenuous). I'm naive ? The source of the article is hardly impartial is he ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 That blog article would be much easier to read and much less annoying without all those bloody exclamation marks. Might be silly but the minute I see excessive use of the !!!!! I automatically think the writer is probably a bit stupid. Not true of course, but y'know.... Interesting thoughts nonetheless. Does nothing to help ease my suspicion that no matter what happens, they'll simply waltz back into the SPL and we'll be told it's "for our own good".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodedajambo Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 comin thru on eurosport news that rangers could be deducted 25 points a season for the next three years if they go for pre pack admin. btw this piece is in the record and written by mr traynor, not sure if it was todays or tommorrows edition. if it was todays then i apologise for a momentary lapse into peebleshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Seems certain that Rangers would have been made well aware of potential illegality I think you're right up to a point, but I'd imagine that there's a good chance that there would have been a certain arrogance (do you know who we are?) amongst the Directors, meaning they only heard and saw what they wanted to. They may not have understood the full implications of the scheme being declared evasion rather than just avoidance, or appreciated that HMRC wouldn't take a percentage. Remember Rangers have supposedly twice made offers to settle, so presumably the Directors expected that to be successful. I think that also there may also have been a conflict of interest if the people Rangers were asking for advice, were the same people they were paying to run the EBT for them. Would it have been in their interests to play down any dangers, and concentrate on carrying on with the scheme? Always a danger if using an FA, rather than an IFA. I don't suppose we'll actually get that level of detailed information for years, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm naive ? The source of the article is hardly impartial is he ? Doesn't make him wrong though, DH. Everything he said made sense, from the fact Rangers have brought this on themselves, to the fact (we don't know it's a fact but would all agree, I'm sure, that it's a fact) that the SFA are falling over themselves to accomodate Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Isnt it a shame that we have to wait for bloggers to write detailed, interesting analysis of the situation. Journalism in Scotland doesnt exist. http://www.scotsman.com/news/cartoon/tom_english_when_it_comes_to_the_truth_don_t_depend_on_joe_blogs_1_1938647 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Question though - possibly for FF or someone else who follows this stuff closely - what's with the writer's comment at the end about Celtic's legal representation etc? What's the writer's interest other than having respect for them or whatever it is he says? Sorry I can't copy/paste etc but on phone rather than laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The fault I have with the article is that it infers UEFA and FIFA stand for the probity of the game, which we all know is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The fault I have with the article is that it infers UEFA and FIFA stand for the probity of the game, which we all know is laughable. Which could well be to Rangers detriment as they delight in flexing their muscles against smaller teams and FAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm naive ? The source of the article is hardly impartial is he ? Not impartial no, but the naive comment was not really related to the blog, it was just my take on the situation - I can't honestly believe that any reputable financial advisors wouldn't cover their backs and make quite clear the dangers of what they were getting into. (redm - I agree about the overuse of exclamation marks BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Question though - possibly for FF or someone else who follows this stuff closely - what's with the writer's comment at the end about Celtic's legal representation etc? What's the writer's interest other than having respect for them or whatever it is he says? Sorry I can't copy/paste etc but on phone rather than laptop. I just inferred some naff attempt at "we do things properly, don't you know" oneupmanship which rather weakened the entire article. I thought it was an interesting read; but biased and flawed. Natural justice? In sport? Is he sure? The piece IMA MAROON linked to is right as well. Because it's been all over the net, everyone's taken the attitude that Rangers are goosed; that administration will happen. Actually, we're still in the land of 'may be' and 'might', and no amount of wishful thinking dressed up as sober legalistic comment will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independence Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I just inferred some naff attempt at "we do things properly, don't you know" oneupmanship which rather weakened the entire article. I thought it was an interesting read; but biased and flawed. Natural justice? In sport? Is he sure? The piece IMA MAROON linked to is right as well. Because it's been all over the net, everyone's taken the attitude that Rangers are goosed; that administration will happen. Actually, we're still in the land of 'may be' and 'might', and no amount of wishful thinking dressed up as sober legalistic comment will change that. Pity ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 When was the last time that HMRC lost out in a battle with a football club though?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Doesn't make him wrong though, DH. Everything he said made sense, from the fact Rangers have brought this on themselves, to the fact (we don't know it's a fact but would all agree, I'm sure, that it's a fact) that the SFA are falling over themselves to accomodate Rangers. I wouldn't argue Rangers have brought this upon themselves. They had a gameplan which has appears to have backfired bigtime. As for the SFA.... Of course they're going to help Rangers - they'd be mental not to. As much as we most of us hate them, in the eyes of the SFA/SPL they're one of the biggest reasons we have a TV and sponsorship deal worth as much as we do. Rangers going bust would be disastrous for Scottish Football as it would be down to a one club race for our top league and each of the individual divisions that the 'new' Rangers would play in for the next 3 or 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 When was the last time that HMRC lost out in a battle with a football club though?? Only last year. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/portsmouth/7928708/Portsmouth-win-vital-court-case-against-HMRC.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I just inferred some naff attempt at "we do things properly, don't you know" oneupmanship which rather weakened the entire article. I thought it was an interesting read; but biased and flawed. Natural justice? In sport? Is he sure? The piece IMA MAROON linked to is right as well. Because it's been all over the net, everyone's taken the attitude that Rangers are goosed; that administration will happen. Actually, we're still in the land of 'may be' and 'might', and no amount of wishful thinking dressed up as sober legalistic comment will change that. Feels dirty - that link should have a Tom English warning. What Tom the Tit conveniently fails to mention is that the blog in question has built up its credibility as events have unfolded because the mainstream media have ignored the Ibronx shenanigans or, worse, have been complicit in sweeping them under the carpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 ....I can't honestly believe that any reputable financial advisors wouldn't cover their backs and make quite clear the dangers of what they were getting into. I suppose the opposite argument to that is; would a reputable financial advisor have kept this going for so long, and allowed their client to get so deep into the clart, that there may be no way out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I wouldn't argue Rangers have brought this upon themselves. They had a gameplan which has appears to have backfired bigtime. As for the SFA.... Of course they're going to help Rangers - they'd be mental not to. As much as we most of us hate them, in the eyes of the SFA/SPL they're one of the biggest reasons we have a TV and sponsorship deal worth as much as we do. Rangers going bust would be disastrous for Scottish Football as it would be down to a one club race for our top league and each of the individual divisions that the 'new' Rangers would play in for the next 3 or 4 years. Rangers going bust would be the biggest opportunity ever granted to Scottish football to change it for the better. If it is eschewed the paying public will walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Feels dirty - that link should have a Tom English warning. What Tom the Tit conveniently fails to mention is that the blog in question has built up its credibility as events have unfolded because the mainstream media have ignored the Ibronx shenanigans or, worse, have been complicit in sweeping them under the carpet. I'm not sure I completely agree. Because while the blog has provided a huge amount of coverage on what's been going on, what's been going on has actually been perfectly searchable via articles in the press. Searching for those articles validated the blog when many of us first came across it; first heard about this story. But I'd stop short at acting like this blog has been the only source to have reported this case; or that its scoops have been that earth shattering either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Rangers going bust would be the biggest opportunity ever granted to Scottish football to change it for the better. If it is eschewed the paying public will walk away. Whilst I agree it would be a big opportunity.... There is nobody capable of replacing Rangers as a permanent challenger to Celtic. We had our chance to sneak in there 6 years but blew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Palmer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Drylaw for Heart of Midlothian FC manager. Doubt he'd take the job though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Drylaw for Heart of Midlothian FC manager. Doubt he'd take the job though... They couldn't afford me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm not sure I completely agree. Because while the blog has provided a huge amount of coverage on what's been going on, what's been going on has actually been perfectly searchable via articles in the press. Searching for those articles validated the blog when many of us first came across it; first heard about this story. But I'd stop short at acting like this blog has been the only source to have reported this case; or that its scoops have been that earth shattering either. Fair comment but given that when The Herald stable did run similar stories and Rangers banned them, what was the reaction of the rest of the weegia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Whilst I agree it would be a big opportunity.... There is nobody capable of replacing Rangers as a permanent challenger to Celtic. We had our chance to sneak in there 6 years but blew it. Ah, but how much do Septic stand to lose? Much more than the rest of the SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ah, but how much do Septic stand to lose? Much more than the rest of the SPL. The gap is still too big Geoff. Without trying to take this thread completely off track... Our best hope is for a European League - which will happen eventually imo. The 2 of them can get on with it elsewhere and leave the rest of us to enjoy a competitive league with clubs of a much more similar size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Only last year. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/portsmouth/7928708/Portsmouth-win-vital-court-case-against-HMRC.html Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Question though - possibly for FF or someone else who follows this stuff closely - what's with the writer's comment at the end about Celtic's legal representation etc? What's the writer's interest other than having respect for them or whatever it is he says? Sorry I can't copy/paste etc but on phone rather than laptop. The writer is obviously a Celtic supporting laywer who also knows Celtic's legal representatives pretty well. My reading of the point that he is making, is that Celtic's legal team will be able to advise the Celtic Board on the SFA's own rules and identify any conficts of interest or where any decisions made could be challenged by further legal process. i.e. the Celtic Board will be sufficiently informed of the rules and the SFA's situation when presented with a request by a newco RFC, before Celtic make a decision whether or not to support such an application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Fair comment but given that when The Herald stable did run similar stories and Rangers banned them, what was the reaction of the rest of the weegia? The same as it was before. That there haven't been that many articles has been because of: 1. Possible legal concerns. 2. The bizarre hold David Murray undoubtedly had (but note: Craig Whyte does not have) over the succulent lamb supping press. Or to put it another way: "Swallow. Don't spit". 3. Whisper it - but other than the club being taken over (which certainly was covered, at considerable length), nothing material has changed: - Rangers are still Champions and romping away with it AGAIN this season - The court case is still ongoing. When the case is either concluded or settled, then we'll have a game changer, one way or the other. Until then, it's all speculation, mate. Incidentally, there'a a possible point 4 here too. That is that, for whatever reason, the role of the established media - in Scotland, at least - is continuing to change. As I've mentioned a few times over the last few days, they've gone remarkably quiet about us: it's almost as though they're starting to leave the speculation and gossip - however accurate - to new media. I've no idea why that might be; but it does seem that way a bit to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Rangers going bust would be disastrous for Scottish Football as it would be down to a one club race for our top league Celtic clear in 2nd place right now, are they? and each of the individual divisions that the 'new' Rangers would play in for the next 3 or 4 years. Somehow don't think you'll find teams in those divisions complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Wiseau Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 They couldn't afford me. The second you played a Scotch huddy over a guid honest Liff laddie... :loveit: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ah, but how much do Septic stand to lose? Much more than the rest of the SPL. In a league without Rangers, Celtic would be able to cut back their spending and their fans may even enjoy not having the weekly hatred fest to look forward to - although no doubt a large proportion of Celtic's fans thrive on the "rivalry" with Rangers. Sadly a small section of our support has given us a rep as a Rangers-lite so Celtic fans would immediately focus on us as their new enemy. I'd also be worried about ex Rangers fans (or people who would otherwise choose Rangers) migrating to us for the same reason - particularly if our new home is further to the west of the city. Won't happen though - there will be a Rangers 2.0 of some sort that will quickly be in the SPL again. Even if Rangers lost half of their support they would still be the second best supported team with a wage bill to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Celtic clear in 2nd place right now, are they? This really doesn't mean anything I'm afraid. Somehow don't think you'll find teams in those divisions complaining. I think they'll be delighted with the extra income for a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The second you played a Scotch huddy over a guid honest Liff laddie... :loveit: I wouldn't have a Liff at the club if I was in charge. Nasty bunch imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I wouldn't have a Liff at the club if I was in charge. Nasty bunch imo. ?1m a year, your own private yacht in Monte Carlo every summer, a go on Janet whenever you fancy... in return for having some Liffs at the club? Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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