SPL Referee's accused of hounding Hearts Lithuanian Players

[Dr. Bapswent]

Isn't finding it easy to book them pretty much the same as targetting(sp) them.

 

No

[colinmaroon]

Does anyone think that at times a referee thinks.........thats a Lithuanian that went down/did that or do you think they always look upon that player as player x and the 'Lithuanian' part never ever comes into it as far as the referee is concerned?

 

 

 

Yes, I do!!!

 

 

How else can you explain the plethora of bookings for diving last season, when they were, in fact, legitimate penalties/free kicks for Miko, Velicka and Audrey, and the subsequent, unprecedented furore in the Weegie media which brought it to a halt!!!

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see!!!

 

 

 

 

..............

[alwaysthereinspirit]

No

 

OK.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Varanavicius has no official role at Hearts so his words mean nothing as far as the club is concerned. Which is good because turning this into an issue around our Lithuanian players is absolutely the wrong way to go and I'm glad the club itself hasn't done that. The real issue (and it's one which affects the whole of Scottish football) is the ridiculous appeals process and the fact Zaliukas didn't have his card rescinded.

 

Varanavicius just sounds like he's whining and the club should have nothing to do with it. Nobody will take him seriously because everybody knows these Lithuanian players wouldn't be here anyway under normal circumstances.

 

Can you imagine if David Taylor had got involved when Levein's Scottish players were floundering at Leicester? The Leicester fans would have laughed their c0ks off.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Can you imagine if David Taylor had got involved when Levein's Scottish players were floundering at Leicester? The Leicester fans would have laughed their c0ks off.

 

There is a difference between players who aren't playing well and players who feel that they are being treated differently by the refs because of who they are.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Varanavicius has no official role at Hearts so his words mean nothing as far as the club is concerned. Which is good because turning this into an issue around our Lithuanian players is absolutely the wrong way to go and I'm glad the club itself hasn't done that. The real issue (and it's one which affects the whole of Scottish football) is the ridiculous appeals process and the fact Zaliukas didn't have his card rescinded.

 

Varanavicius just sounds like he's whining and the club should have nothing to do with it. Nobody will take him seriously because everybody knows these Lithuanian players wouldn't be here anyway under normal circumstances.

 

Can you imagine if David Taylor had got involved when Levein's Scottish players were floundering at Leicester? The Leicester fans would have laughed their c0ks off.

 

Your speaking for sensible thoughtful Hearts fans, but not the rest of the audience who are happy to take what is said at face value and not think any further on it.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Your speaking for sensible thoughtful Hearts fans, but not the rest of the audience who are happy to take what is said at face value and not think any further on it.

 

Is that the sensible thoughtful Hearts fans who don't know that a statement from the head of the Lithuanian FA is not a statement by Hearts.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Is that the sensible thoughtful Hearts fans who don't know that a statement from the head of the Lithuanian FA is not a statement by Hearts.

 

Good one.

That'll leave a mark.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

OK, well someone connected to the club has.

 

Jeez, picky or what.

 

how is he connected exactly?

[jambovambo]

Good post.

 

Dr B... It makes a big difference that Liutauras isnt employed by hearts.

 

SFA should be concerned that a high up figure of another authority are worried about its nationals getting fair hearings/decisions. They shouldnt have to suffer thru vlads loose tongue... which imo is whats happening.

 

However lets not kid ourselves that Vlad and Liutauras haven't had a conversation in the last few days over this - I bet they have.

 

At least (in my view) Vlad has found a slightly more subtle way of challenging the status quo.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

how is he connected exactly?

 

He has no official connection to Hearts but he certainly has connections to Romanov and he was heavily involved in the attempts to link up with Dunfermline, Dundee and Dundee Utd as well as the takeover of Hearts. He has played a big role in Hearts activities over the past four years, no question, even though he isn't on the board anymore. However, he shouldn't be opening his gob to the papers about matters that concern Hearts or Scottish football because he has no official capacity in either.

[Sheriff Fatman]

He has no official connection to Hearts but he certainly has connections to Romanov and he was heavily involved in the attempts to link up with Dunfermline, Dundee and Dundee Utd as well as the takeover of Hearts. He has played a big role in Hearts activities over the past four years, no question, even though he isn't on the board anymore. However, he shouldn't be opening his gob to the papers about matters that concern Hearts or Scottish football because he has no official capacity in either.

 

He is the head of the Lithuanian FA and as such represents Lithuanian football players. The only other person, outside of Hearts, that has any capacity or responsibility to talk about the matter is Wishart. He is doing his usual act of sucking up to the SFA and not representing his members in any shape or form.

[coatbridgejambo]

dont no about any one else but i'm almost done with scotish football

[Boof]

Does anyone know for sure if our Lithuanian players are members of the organisation headed by Fraser Wishart?

[coatbridgejambo]

good question

[Ben Dover]

The gloves are off :xmasgrin:

 

LV is the front man of the LFA and, unlike that plum GS, has come out and made a comment with regards to his fellow nationals plying their trade elsewhere in Europe...........where they are supposedly UNDER UEFA's PROTECTION

 

Anyway, the bottom line for 'us' is that if you want to get something done in this PC world..........then sadly your best chance is perhaps to play the 'race' card !

It's maybe not big and it's maybe not clever .........but at last we maybe now have the 'Scottish issue' up for discussion outside the impervious walls of the GFA Bunker

[Tambojambo]

I agree with you BD. Whilst the authorities actions may not be overtly xenophobic or racist, there most cartainly is an "Agenda" against Vladimir Romanov and , by association, Heart of Midlothian Football Club and again, by association, their Lithuanian players. I have no problem with someone outside of HMFC speaking out in support of these players. My problem is that some of our fellow supporters have a similar "Agenda" when posting on this board, as can be seen on every other thread!!

 

The gloves are off :xmasgrin:

 

LV is the front man of the LFA and, unlike that plum GS, has come out and made a comment with regards to his fellow nationals plying their trade elsewhere in Europe...........where they are supposedly UNDER UEFA's PROTECTION

 

Anyway, the bottom line for 'us' is that if you want to get something done in this PC world..........then sadly your best chance is perhaps to play the 'race' card !

It's maybe not big and it's maybe not clever .........but at last we maybe now have the 'Scottish issue' up for discussion outside the impervious walls of the GFA Bunker

[Sheriff Fatman]

Does anyone know for sure if our Lithuanian players are members of the organisation headed by Fraser Wishart?

 

To be honest, I wouldn't be suprised if they had left the players union, given his complete lack of backbone over the way they have been treated by the SFA and the press over the last few years.

[Kinkster]

Summed up perfectly for me when Brian Irvine (co-commentator apparently), attempted to say "Zaloo, Zaluuk, ah whatever his name is "on the radio on Saturday. The same people could pronounce all the Hobos Morroccan players names as well the foreigners that play for the Huns or Sellic.

 

Could you imagine an english commentator saying the same about an African player ?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Summed up perfectly for me when Brian Irvine (co-commentator apparently), attempted to say "Zaloo, Zaluuk, ah whatever his name is "on the radio on Saturday. The same people could pronounce all the Hobos Morroccan players names as well the foreigners that play for the Huns or Sellic.

 

Could you imagine an english commentator saying the same about an African player ?

 

It's terrible. In general, there are far too many uneducated, ignorant morons in Scotland and Irvine is a prime example. The disdain shown to our players from Lithuania from pundits etc. has been shocking. However, we had a glorious chance (we still do hopefully) to actually force the issue of some of the antiquated, ridiculous conventions still evident in Scottish football and I hope we don't disappear back into our Soviet-era style shell of thinking the whole world is against us and only us. The whole system stinks and it ain't just Hearts' Lithuanian players, or even Hearts, who suffer.

[CF11JamTart]

Summed up perfectly for me when Brian Irvine (co-commentator apparently), attempted to say "Zaloo, Zaluuk, ah whatever his name is "on the radio on Saturday. The same people could pronounce all the Hobos Morroccan players names as well the foreigners that play for the Huns or Sellic.

 

Could you imagine an english commentator saying the same about an African player ?

 

Living outside of Scotland, I usually listen to FiveLive for sports coverage, but I was up in Ayrshire for Christmas.

 

I was really surprised at the poor level of commentary, and the "guest summarisers" in particular. Jeez - I don't expect much... just...

 

1. for them to be REASONABLY articulate

2. to say something VAGUELY INSIGHTFUL... i.e. not just the bleedn' obvious

3. to genuinely call it as they see it... rather than being too cowered to upset their Old Firm chums / ex-employers.

 

Radio Clyde is "pure Colin Nish" - I expect that, but I thought that BBC Radio Scotland might be reasonable.

[shaun.lawson]

I'm in two minds over this. On the one hand, I absolutely refute the idea that there is any sort of conscious xenophobia or racism at work: it's the whole system which is at fault, as Eldar says. But on the other, I'm pleased - very pleased - that Varanavicius' comments will get people talking about the competence and integrity of referees, and the nonsensical appeals system currently in place.

 

I'd be very surprised if Vlad or anyone else has had a quiet word with LV beforehand: he's merely commenting on behalf of Lithuanian footballers. I'd also remind people that Vlad himself suggested players would be sold a few weeks ago, and with Zaliukas, Miko and Chesney expected to be among the first to go, it'd be extremely foolish for us to blame the establishment for something that was probably going to happen anyway. There are actually shades here of when Koslovski accused the fans of racism instead of taking responsibility for the club's appalling decisions.

 

But overall, I'm impressed with how Hearts have handled all this: there's been a dignity about the club's behaviour which should be congratulated. And even if it's not racist, something has to change in a system that in my view, had been biased towards the Old Firm in a quite absurd way for as long as I can remember. Below, two YouTube clips from 1999: the first, from a match which had Hearts fans in uproar at Mike McCurry's officiating; the second, featuring one of the most scandalous decisions in Scottish football in many years. A ghost goal for Celtic - which had it occurred at the other end, wouldn't have been given in a million years. It's pro-OF - not anti-Hearts.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nkKLPYLnozA&feature=channel_page

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tvPc4zeHyys&feature=channel_page

[Victorian]

I'm in two minds over this. On the one hand, I absolutely refute the idea that there is any sort of conscious xenophobia or racism at work: it's the whole system which is at fault, as Eldar says. But on the other, I'm pleased - very pleased - that Varanavicius' comments will get people talking about the competence and integrity of referees, and the nonsensical appeals system currently in place.

 

I'd be very surprised if Vlad or anyone else has had a quiet word with LV beforehand: he's merely commenting on behalf of Lithuanian footballers. I'd also remind people that Vlad himself suggested players would be sold a few weeks ago, and with Zaliukas, Miko and Chesney expected to be among the first to go, it'd be extremely foolish for us to blame the establishment for something that was probably going to happen anyway. There are actually shades here of when Koslovski accused the fans of racism instead of taking responsibility for the club's appalling decisions.

 

But overall, I'm impressed with how Hearts have handled all this: there's been a dignity about the club's behaviour which should be congratulated. And even if it's not racist, something has to change in a system that in my view, had been biased towards the Old Firm in a quite absurd way for as long as I can remember. Below, two YouTube clips from 1999: the first, from a match which had Hearts fans in uproar at Mike McCurry's officiating; the second, featuring one of the most scandalous decisions in Scottish football in many years. A ghost goal for Celtic - which had it occurred at the other end, wouldn't have been given in a million years. It's pro-OF - not anti-Hearts.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nkKLPYLnozA&feature=channel_page

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tvPc4zeHyys&feature=channel_page

i agree with some of what you said there but i'm struggling to see how your theory about a pro-OF culture, under-pinned by the st.johnstone/celtic incident, impacts on a piece of refereeing scandal from an aberdeen/hearts match.

 

everyone probably agrees there's a pro-OF culture, there has been for decades, but that has no bearing on any possible anti-hearts culture which plays out in matches not involving the OF.

 

sorry but this is another example of the crux of the debate being confused by other issues, and it doesn't help us get to the bottom of things and find a focal point for our efforts.

[colinmaroon]

It's terrible. In general, there are far too many uneducated, ignorant morons in Scotland and Irvine is a prime example. The disdain shown to our players from Lithuania from pundits etc. has been shocking. However, we had a glorious chance (we still do hopefully) to actually force the issue of some of the antiquated, ridiculous conventions still evident in Scottish football and I hope we don't disappear back into our Soviet-era style shell of thinking the whole world is against us and only us. The whole system stinks and it ain't just Hearts' Lithuanian players, or even Hearts, who suffer.

 

 

 

How ever dare you!!!

 

 

On behalf of the people of Irvine I must complain about your townophobic comments!!!

 

 

 

 

 

................

[shaun.lawson]

i agree with some of what you said there but i'm struggling to see how your theory about a pro-OF culture, under-pinned by the st.johnstone/celtic incident, impacts on a piece of refereeing scandal from an aberdeen/hearts match.

 

everyone probably agrees there's a pro-OF culture, there has been for decades, but that has no bearing on any possible anti-hearts culture which plays out in matches not involving the OF.

 

sorry but this is another example of the crux of the debate being confused by other issues, and it doesn't help us get to the bottom of things and find a focal point for our efforts.

 

The SFA are a bunch of craven, complacent toads, who preside over a system so archaic it could be straight out of a Banana Republic. This system manifests itself in constant, wanton bias towards the OF (Rangers v Dundee United last season, CIS Cup Final, CIS semi, bazillions of players sent off against Celtic over the last year or so, hardly any OF players ever sent off for red card offences, Barry the Radge almost never booked, etc etc), useless, unaccountable referees, and scandalous appeal processes (sic). The latter hasn't just affected us - it affected Aberdeen after their match with Hibs, for example.

 

Modernising the system, and providing rigorous, thorough, independent accountability of officials and their decisions is the only way we'll be able to achieve consensus and actually get anywhere. Convincing ourselves that it's only about us sounds and probably is paranoid and won't achieve anything. The reason I applauded Hearts' response on the website is it focused on the appeals process itself, rather than "the world is against us" - because if we make it purely about ourselves, it's actually us who'd be confusing and blurring the real issues here.

[N User]

Anybody wanting to see this bias only needs to go onto Hearts.tv and go through some of the highlights.

You can even search the sendings off. Mikoliunas at Ibrox in 2005/06 is a shocking decision (McCurry) and even this season with his diving booking (and red card for next tackle).

I'm sure you can see more as well.

[Charlie-Brown]

As I see it the following are all true of our match officials

1) Pro Old Firm bias / cheating

2) an element of anti Hearts/Romanov bias

3) Unfair & unequal treatment of Hearts Lithuanian players

4) Incompetence & poor decision making

[shaun.lawson]

As I see it the following are all true of our match officials

1) Pro Old Firm bias / cheating

2) an element of anti Hearts/Romanov bias

3) Unfair & unequal treatment of Hearts Lithuanian players

4) Incompetence & poor decision making

 

Prove it. The point Kenif made above is merely further evidence of non-OF players always getting the thin end of the wedge - and pays no heed to the many appalling decisions other non-OF clubs suffer every season too. How many bookings have Zaliukas or Miko received this season? How many has Michael Stewart received? How many wrong sendings off have Dundee United endured over the last season and a half? Etc etc.

[Charlie-Brown]

Prove it. The point Kenif made above is merely further evidence of non-OF players always getting the thin end of the wedge - and pays no heed to the many appalling decisions other non-OF clubs suffer every season too. How many bookings have Zaliukas or Miko received this season? How many has Michael Stewart received? How many wrong sendings off have Dundee United endured over the last season and a half? Etc etc.

 

I gave several examples earlier in the thread Shaun, I can't prove it but i can list numerous examples - twice Zaliukas was sent off when the original aggressors Lee Wilkie & Lee Miller escaped a red card, numerous bookings for simulation against Miko, Ksanavicius, Chesney & Velicka when many other players who go down just as easily escaped similar punishment some even in the same games. The number of cards received is not the issue it is the fairness and equal treatment that is the issue - they get cards and certain decisions against them that other players do not - if that isn't special treatment then what is? Miko is a whole special case himself.

[Victorian]

The SFA are a bunch of craven, complacent toads, who preside over a system so archaic it could be straight out of a Banana Republic. This system manifests itself in constant, wanton bias towards the OF (Rangers v Dundee United last season, CIS Cup Final, CIS semi, bazillions of players sent off against Celtic over the last year or so, hardly any OF players ever sent off for red card offences, Barry the Radge almost never booked, etc etc), useless, unaccountable referees, and scandalous appeal processes (sic). The latter hasn't just affected us - it affected Aberdeen after their match with Hibs, for example.

 

Modernising the system, and providing rigorous, thorough, independent accountability of officials and their decisions is the only way we'll be able to achieve consensus and actually get anywhere. Convincing ourselves that it's only about us sounds and probably is paranoid and won't achieve anything. The reason I applauded Hearts' response on the website is it focused on the appeals process itself, rather than "the world is against us" - because if we make it purely about ourselves, it's actually us who'd be confusing and blurring the real issues here.

again i totally agree about the nature of the GFA beast.

 

i imagine the club has limited it's response to the appeals proceedures in order to stay on the right side of the rules rather than them accepting that there is no other issue at play. i too am pleased they haven't gone off on one because it would have been completely counter productive.

 

is it all about a pro-OF culture and a diabolical appeals system though? i would have to say no. there has to be something else going on for all the many, many times we seem to have fallen foul of bizarre and scandalous decisions.

 

i've said already that it would be counter productive to go down the anti-lithuanian route. it's too narrow a field and doesn't explain the decisions that go against us when no lithuanian player is involved. that is not to say that an anti-lithuanian culture doesn't exist in some form because it very well could, imo.

 

what we need is for the whole hearts 'plight' to somehow be given a proper airing in as many media outlets as possible and we need to canvass support from as many other clubs as possible. that isn't going to be easy because there doesn't seem to be any will on the part of the media to examine this sort of subject and the other clubs would argue that they too are discriminated against to the same degree.

 

it's all very well to simply point to the incompetence of the SFA and their referees and point to the ongoing pro-OF culture that exists but concentrating on those alone will not cut the mustard when it comes to trying to strike a fairer deal for hearts, our club. we have to look after the interests of hearts first and foremost because nobody else will.

[Rawrrrrrrr]

As I see it the following are all true of our match officials

1) Pro Old Firm bias / cheating

2) an element of anti Hearts/Romanov bias

3) Unfair & unequal treatment of Hearts Lithuanian players

4) Incompetence & poor decision making

 

 

I will give you 4, the less are pathetic paranoia which when spouted in the manner it is far too regularly by people involved with our club or seen to be involved with the club takes away from the validity of argument number 4.

 

If aberdeen or falkirk are victim to a disgusting decision and their manager says that it gets media discussion and coverage, when it happens with hearts it gets laughed off as romanovs latest delusion.

 

this is romanov and his cohorts fault, no one elses

 

A bit like the kid who cried wolf once too often.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

How ever dare you!!!

 

 

On behalf of the people of Irvine I must complain about your townophobic comments!!!

 

 

 

 

 

................

 

:xmasgrin:

[shaun.lawson]

what we need is for the whole hearts 'plight' to somehow be given a proper airing in as many media outlets as possible and we need to canvass support from as many other clubs as possible. that isn't going to be easy because there doesn't seem to be any will on the part of the media to examine this sort of subject and the other clubs would argue that they too are discriminated against to the same degree.

 

it's all very well to simply point to the incompetence of the SFA and their referees and point to the ongoing pro-OF culture that exists but concentrating on those alone will not cut the mustard when it comes to trying to strike a fairer deal for hearts, our club. we have to look after the interests of hearts first and foremost because nobody else will.

 

But what 'plight' is that exactly? And why should we expect support from others when we, as a club, have done a damn fine job of ostracising ourselves within Scottish football up until pretty recently?

 

If I were just an objective onlooker, rather than a dyed in the wool Jambo, I'd conclude this latest affair had just demonstrated once again the pernicious iniquities pervading the Scottish game. But if a Hearts fan told me they were convinced of a conspiracy against their club, I'd laugh, point to the countless appalling decisions other non-OF sides suffer from, and then say something like: "OK, let's get this straight. They weren't bothered about their 'plight' when Romanov took over. They weren't bothered about their 'plight' when he binned their manager, picked the team or went off on all sorts of mad rants. They said we were all jealous and scared of the 'threat' they posed. Yet now they're up in arms about their 'plight' at the hands of officials? And people call Celtic fans paranoid..."

 

No-one would take us seriously! It's sad: I want a level playing field as much as anyone else, and am sick to death of the injustice of it all. But if we were serious in our claims, Vlad would have commissioned a team to research all refereeing decisions in the SPL and put together a detailed, thorough case. But he didn't: he just had a few Al Capone-style rants, then went completely quiet. You can't persuade others of the merits of your argument without clear, systematic evidence - and suspicions just don't cut it I'm afraid.

[Charlie-Brown]

As far as Iam aware Mikoliunas & Zaliukas are the only SPL players recently to have commented about perceived unfair treatment against them personally from Scottish refs, it is an unusual step for players to take.

[Victorian]

But what 'plight' is that exactly? And why should we expect support from others when we, as a club, have done a damn fine job of ostracising ourselves within Scottish football up until pretty recently?

 

If I were just an objective onlooker, rather than a dyed in the wool Jambo, I'd conclude this latest affair had just demonstrated once again the pernicious iniquities pervading the Scottish game. But if a Hearts fan told me they were convinced of a conspiracy against their club, I'd laugh, point to the countless appalling decisions other non-OF sides suffer from, and then say something like: "OK, let's get this straight. They weren't bothered about their 'plight' when Romanov took over. They weren't bothered about their 'plight' when he binned their manager, picked the team or went off on all sorts of mad rants. They said we were all jealous and scared of the 'threat' they posed. Yet now they're up in arms about their 'plight' at the hands of officials? And people call Celtic fans paranoid..."

 

No-one would take us seriously! It's sad: I want a level playing field as much as anyone else, and am sick to death of the injustice of it all. But if we were serious in our claims, Vlad would have commissioned a team to research all refereeing decisions in the SPL and put together a detailed, thorough case. But he didn't: he just had a few Al Capone-style rants, then went completely quiet. You can't persuade others of the merits of your argument without clear, systematic evidence - and suspicions just don't cut it I'm afraid.

i did say it wouldn't be easy. other clubs might privately hold the view that we are singled out for different treatment at times but i agree they are highly unlikely to say so publicly, they might very well hold the honest view that there is no such bias.

 

speaking from a standpoint of an anti-hearts agenda existing (i think there is some agenda, you think there isn't, we will just have to accept the difference of opinion) then what would be the best course of action to take? for you to answer then you'll have to treat it as a hypothetical question.

 

1. we can just accept it and get on with it. not for me really because what would be the point?

 

2. keep on moaning about it and not actually getting anywhere or changing anything. the most likely outcome.

 

3. find some way of proceeding with a chance of getting the issue into the public domain and get people aware of what our grievances are. hopefully with a chance of presuading outsiders that there is indeed some kind of campaign being waged, to get people talking about it and becoming more aware of what many hearts fans are already aware of.

 

yes, other clubs are also affected by the diabolical standard of refereeing, pro-OF culture and backwards nature of the SFA rules but i would always argue that is a seperate and distinct issue from hearts. you obviously disagree.

[portobellojambo1]

yes, other clubs are also affected by the diabolical standard of refereeing, pro-OF culture and backwards nature of the SFA rules but i would always argue that is a seperate and distinct issue from hearts. you obviously disagree.

 

If all other clubs, as you say, are receiving their quota of unfair decisions, then how is that a separate issue from Hearts.

 

The only separate issue for Hearts is that someone unconnected to the club has suggested that there is racism on the loose in Scottish football. Zaliukas has indicated he feels that he gets picked on, but as far as I am aware stopped short of terming it racism.

 

If Hearts raise a case based on paragraph one above they might, they should definitely but I will go with might at the moment, get the support of the other clubs for this to be raised, discussed and addressed.

 

If we raise a case based on paragraph two, i.e. we are complaining because we feel our Lithuanian players are subject to bad treatment by referees, because they, the referees, are racist, the other clubs in the SPL will laugh at us.

 

Do we want to try and raise something that possibly rights the wrongs in Scottish football, or raise something which doesn't exist. Are we happy to accept bad decisions can continue to be made, as long as our Lithuanian players are happy, and the Lithuanian Football Federation president is happy.

[shaun.lawson]

i did say it wouldn't be easy. other clubs might privately hold the view that we are singled out for different treatment at times but i agree they are highly unlikely to say so publicly, they might very well hold the honest view that there is no such bias.

 

speaking from a standpoint of an anti-hearts agenda existing (i think there is some agenda, you think there isn't, we will just have to accept the difference of opinion) then what would be the best course of action to take? for you to answer then you'll have to treat it as a hypothetical question.

 

1. we can just accept it and get on with it. not for me really because what would be the point?

 

2. keep on moaning about it and not actually getting anywhere or changing anything. the most likely outcome.

 

3. find some way of proceeding with a chance of getting the issue into the public domain and get people aware of what our grievances are. hopefully with a chance of presuading outsiders that there is indeed some kind of campaign being waged, to get people talking about it and becoming more aware of what many hearts fans are already aware of.

 

yes, other clubs are also affected by the diabolical standard of refereeing, pro-OF culture and backwards nature of the SFA rules but i would always argue that is a seperate and distinct issue from hearts. you obviously disagree.

 

What do we do? We get on with it, and do our talking on the pitch. We ensure a vote is taken at the end of the season to change the absurd appeals system. We talk to the other nine non-OF clubs to gauge their opinions on the quality/integrity of officiating, and maybe come up with a co-ordinated stance for the benefit of the whole of the Scottish game.

 

If the decisions against us had come against a backdrop of excellent discipline in the Hearts dressing room, we'd have a far more compelling case. But until recently, they haven't: instead, the indiscipline has been appalling at times, thanks to a dressing room riven with cliques - indeed, it may even have been a factor behind Julien Brellier's infamous tackle on Bruno Aguiar in training. To his credit, Csaba has endeavoured to sort this out - and the more he succeeds, the more justified our complaints will become.

 

What I think happened on Saturday is a useless, incompetent referee got it wrong and was swayed by the atmosphere and home crowd: as weak, incompetent refs are the world over. He then compounded this by refusing to admit he'd erred - because he never admits to any mistakes. That's it: no racism, no xenophobia, no conspiracy against Hearts. Just an arrogant, **** poor referee backed up by a tinpot administration. So campaign for better, more accountable officials, and a modern, transparent governing body. There's no reason why the ten of us couldn't do this - but as long as we argue amongst ourselves, nothing will ever change.

[Victorian]

If all other clubs, as you say, are receiving their quota of unfair decisions, then how is that a separate issue from Hearts. obviously other clubs get a share of bad decisions but i still honestly think that we suffer from this a lot more than other clubs

 

The only separate issue for Hearts is that someone unconnected to the club has suggested that there is racism on the loose in Scottish football. Zaliukas has indicated he feels that he gets picked on, but as far as I am aware stopped short of terming it racism. i don't think varanavicius mentioned racism either, he mentioned possible xenophobic issues

 

If Hearts raise a case based on paragraph one above they might, they should definitely but I will go with might at the moment, get the support of the other clubs for this to be raised, discussed and addressed.

 

If we raise a case based on paragraph two, i.e. we are complaining because we feel our Lithuanian players are subject to bad treatment by referees, because they, the referees, are racist, the other clubs in the SPL will laugh at us. yes i agree, we shouldn't go down the route of citing an anti-lithuanian culture because that's too narrow. there are other decisions which have no lithuanian angle

 

Do we want to try and raise something that possibly rights the wrongs in Scottish football, or raise something which doesn't exist. Are we happy to accept bad decisions can continue to be made, as long as our Lithuanian players are happy, and the Lithuanian Football Federation president is happy.

varanavicius is nothing to do with us and i don't really think his input will do us any favours

[Ben Dover]

Sean wrote- why should we expect support from others when we, as a club, have done a damn fine job of ostracising ourselves within Scottish football up until pretty recently?

 

Now although this point is often put forward, I really don't agree with it, or at least the part that suggests WE have ostracised ourselves ?

We have NEVER ( TTBOMK ) belittled any other SPL club nor have we ever claimed that it's ONLY poor old us who have suffered at the hands of the Refs or GFA.

We may have had grand ideas 'above our station' .........but surely one must DARE TO DREAM :xmasgrin:........other than that, I don't see where we have gone wrong to such an extent that we have become a club ( AND IT'S GENERALLY DECENT LOYAL SUPPORT MIND ) that supposedly 'deserves all it gets'

[Spellczech]

I'm in two minds over this. On the one hand, I absolutely refute the idea that there is any sort of conscious xenophobia or racism at work: it's the whole system which is at fault, as Eldar says. But on the other, I'm pleased - very pleased - that Varanavicius' comments will get people talking about the competence and integrity of referees, and the nonsensical appeals system currently in place.

 

I'd be very surprised if Vlad or anyone else has had a quiet word with LV beforehand: he's merely commenting on behalf of Lithuanian footballers. I'd also remind people that Vlad himself suggested players would be sold a few weeks ago, and with Zaliukas, Miko and Chesney expected to be among the first to go, it'd be extremely foolish for us to blame the establishment for something that was probably going to happen anyway. There are actually shades here of when Koslovski accused the fans of racism instead of taking responsibility for the club's appalling decisions.

 

But overall, I'm impressed with how Hearts have handled all this: there's been a dignity about the club's behaviour which should be congratulated. And even if it's not racist, something has to change in a system that in my view, had been biased towards the Old Firm in a quite absurd way for as long as I can remember. Below, two YouTube clips from 1999: the first, from a match which had Hearts fans in uproar at Mike McCurry's officiating; the second, featuring one of the most scandalous decisions in Scottish football in many years. A ghost goal for Celtic - which had it occurred at the other end, wouldn't have been given in a million years. It's pro-OF - not anti-Hearts.

 

I thought we were playing Aberdeen when Zaliukas got sent off for doing nothing...

 

I do concede that the previous time Brines sent off a Hearts player for doing nothing (Fyssas when Maloney cheated) was against Celtic though. However the only pattern is that both Fyssas and Zaliukas are foreign players, but since one is Greek and the other Lithuanian, it cannot be racist. It can however be xenophobia, and the fact that both Maloney and Miller are "guid, Scottish laddies" indicates that prima facie there may be something in this.

[Victorian]

What do we do? We get on with it, and do our talking on the pitch. We ensure a vote is taken at the end of the season to change the absurd appeals system. We talk to the other nine non-OF clubs to gauge their opinions on the quality/integrity of officiating, and maybe come up with a co-ordinated stance for the benefit of the whole of the Scottish game.

 

If the decisions against us had come against a backdrop of excellent discipline in the Hearts dressing room, we'd have a far more compelling case. But until recently, they haven't: instead, the indiscipline has been appalling at times, thanks to a dressing room riven with cliques - indeed, it may even have been a factor behind Julien Brellier's infamous tackle on Bruno Aguiar in training. To his credit, Csaba has endeavoured to sort this out - and the more he succeeds, the more justified our complaints will become.

 

What I think happened on Saturday is a useless, incompetent referee got it wrong and was swayed by the atmosphere and home crowd: as weak, incompetent refs are the world over. He then compounded this by refusing to admit he'd erred - because he never admits to any mistakes. That's it: no racism, no xenophobia, no conspiracy against Hearts. Just an arrogant, **** poor referee backed up by a tinpot administration. So campaign for better, more accountable officials, and a modern, transparent governing body. There's no reason why the ten of us couldn't do this - but as long as we argue amongst ourselves, nothing will ever change.

well in the event of no anti-hearts culture existing then that's fair enough. i did ask you to consider it as a hypothetical situation though.

 

at the end of the day, you are convinced that there is no possible anti-hearts agenda, that's your right and you form your comments accordingly. i believe there is something other than pish poor refereeing and pro-OF tendancies etc so i have to form my opinions and comments accordingly too.

[portobellojambo1]

varanavicius is nothing to do with us and i don't really think his input will do us any favours

 

I agree with the above.

 

I would also be more inclined to class what he is saying as racism based rather than xenophobia. Xenophobia is a hatred/fear of all foreigners, or all things foreign, he didn't say the referees were picking on all our foreigners, he said they had something against Lithuanians.

[shaun.lawson]

Sean wrote- why should we expect support from others when we, as a club, have done a damn fine job of ostracising ourselves within Scottish football up until pretty recently?

 

Now although this point is often put forward, I really don't agree with it, or at least the part that suggests WE have ostracised ourselves ?

We have NEVER ( TTBOMK ) belittled any other SPL club nor have we ever claimed that it's ONLY poor old us who have suffered at the hands of the Refs or GFA.

We may have had grand ideas 'above our station' .........but surely one must DARE TO DREAM :xmasgrin:........other than that, I don't see where we have gone wrong to such an extent that we have become a club ( AND IT'S GENERALLY DECENT LOYAL SUPPORT MIND ) that supposedly 'deserves all it gets'

 

There's no problem with being ambitious at all. There is a problem, though, with a series of hysterical rants (one on the club website, for heavens sake) which made the whole club look ridiculous, and were quite obviously intended to deflect us from the owner's responsibility and appalling record of decisions.

 

In business, politics or wherever, do you look to forge friendships and alliances with those sounding moderate, and who behave with respect and decorum - or someone who comes across as wayward, erratic and the loosest of cannons?

[Victorian]

I agree with the above.

 

I would also be more inclined to class what he is saying as racism based rather than xenophobia. Xenophobia is a hatred/fear of all foreigners, or all things foreign, he didn't say the referees were picking on all our foreigners, he said they had something against Lithuanians.

he may well have meant racism but stopped short of saying it. as far as i know his quotes included the word 'xenophobic'.

 

even if people believe there is an anti-lithuanian culture, to go down that route would seem to be painting ourselves into a corner, even if it's true.

 

the only real way to get to the bottom of the reasons why referees make the decisions they do would be for them to actually state it themselves, completely honestly.

 

that's never going to happen so there will always be room for doubt.

[Victorian]

There's no problem with being ambitious at all. There is a problem, though, with a series of hysterical rants (one on the club website, for heavens sake) which made the whole club look ridiculous, and were quite obviously intended to deflect us from the owner's responsibility and appalling record of decisions.

 

In business, politics or wherever, do you look to forge friendships and alliances with those sounding moderate, and who behave with respect and decorum - or someone who comes across as wayward, erratic and the loosest of cannons?

there's no doubt that romanov made serious errors with some of the things he said and the way he went about things, probably the way things are going on to this day.

 

mercifully he has had it zipped for a while and can't go back in time to take it all back. when then does all that historical mumbo-jumbo get consigned to the dustbin and people move on from it?

[Drew Busby !]

Does anyone know for sure if our Lithuanian players are members of the organisation headed by Fraser Wishart?

 

I could be wrong but I imagine that all Scottish professional/semi-professional players pay their dues to the players union.

 

I would be dissapointed if Zal - or Berra as the captain - have not approached Wishart to obtain at least the moral support of the players union as regards the wrong-headedness of Brines dismissal of the appeal.

 

Wishart should be earning his money on this one. He was high-profile on all the VR/player issues of a couple of years ago. He should be as high profile on this one.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

The point surely is that varanavicius has opened up the door to make a very well directed hit at the SFA bias. Some people on here need to grow some **lls and realise that a very good opportunity has arisen to put the SFA on the back foot when they hand out red cards to our foreign players so easily.

 

Of course there is OF bias.

Of course it is Hearts that are getting a raw deal.

Of course Hearts Lithuanian players that are targeted for the sins of Miko and Vlad.

 

..but, there is not a shadow of a doubt that Lithuanian players in our squad get yellows and reds far more readily than other players. How many times have you heard the pundits blame Miko for setting himself up and yet no criticism at all for referees who's job it is to be objective and fair to all irrespective of the colour of their shirt, skin or ethnicity.

 

Varanavicius has done us a huge favour and forced the SFA to have a look at their behaviour and question whether or not any prejudice towards Lithuanian players exists. It maybe even have to explain decisions to EUFA. I welcome any spotlight that can be thrown onto the SFA and the way they behave. Top man in my book and a stroke of genius if Vlad was involved in any way.

[colinmaroon]

Been thinking about it, and do you know, really, there cannot be anything to this, after all Ian Brines is a policeman, and we know that the police never lie, never cheat, never stitch anyone up for something they haven't done - and, as the refereeing supervisor said, and he has to be believed because, after all, he had an exemplary record of fairness when a referee - this is the one nation on earth where there is absolutely no corruption - everyone is a guid, honest Scottish laddie - unlike these Lithuanians!!!

 

So let's just talk about it and do nothing - let's just accept it and lie down and let them walk all over us with their size 12's!!!

 

After all we've been letting them do it for years - why change???

 

 

 

 

 

.....................

[shaun.lawson]

there's no doubt that romanov made serious errors with some of the things he said and the way he went about things, probably the way things are going on to this day.

 

mercifully he has had it zipped for a while and can't go back in time to take it all back. when then does all that historical mumbo-jumbo get consigned to the dustbin and people move on from it?

 

We've moved on from it mate - but others haven't. Why? Because reputations are easy to lose, and difficult to regain: in football, and in life.

[Dirk Diggler]

How many times have you heard the pundits blame Miko for setting himself up and yet no criticism at all for referees who's job it is to be objective and fair to all irrespective of the colour of their shirt, skin or ethnicity.

 

 

Correct. Off the top of my head, Murdo McLeod, Richard Gordon, Allan Preston and Charlie Nicholas all fall into that category. I'm sure there are others.

 

Fantastic post btw.