SPL Referee's accused of hounding Hearts Lithuanian Players

[Gambo]

I don't think that a ref has the time to make up his mind what nationality a player is when he goes down, .

 

I disagree, i think if player x goes down the same way in a 50/50 decision in a game as Miko/Audrey/Chesney go down, then the result would generally be along the lines of a foul for player x or no foul and no booking but in the Miko/Audrey/Chesney case 9 times out of 10 it would be a booking for a dive.

 

 

Do you think that Miko/Chesney/Audrey get the same benefit of doubt from referees as Conway/Zammamma/Miller/Nish/Clarkson etc?

[Dazo]

I tend to agree with regards to your foreigner comment, but i also think that whilst others are classed as 'cheating foreigners' our Lithuanians are classed as 'cheating Lithuanians' the press are as good as the officials when it comes to this viewpoint imo.

 

 

I would say the press are worse than referees when it comes to singling out our Lithuanian players. Majority of our foreign players were Lithuanian and whether we liked it or not some of them liked to dive. So when we got cards for diving it was normally a Lithuanian player that dived or wrongly accused of diving. Nothing do with Lithuania IMO that's just where our players are from.

[Gambo]

; I have to say however that I'm tuly surprised that neither of you buy into an anti Lithunian agenda. For me its as clear as night follows day, its real and it happens with alarming regularity.

 

, and makes me embarrased and ashamed of our country.

 

 

[The Old Tolbooth]

John (and Ian) - fwiw I really enjoy both of your contributions to JKB; I have to say however that I'm tuly surprised that neither of you buy into an anti Lithunian agenda. For me its as clear as night follows day, its real and it happens with alarming regularity.

 

I most definately agree with your comment on Miko - the way that boy has been treated since Davisgate, (not helped by hamdump) is nothing short of a national disgrace, and makes me embarrased and ashamed of our country.

 

Cheers John,

 

I honestly don't think there's an agenda against Lithuanian players alone mate, I'd be more inclined to say there was an agenda against Hearts as a whole, it doesn't matter who it is, as long as they wear maroon, but Miko gets special treatment, of that I have absolutely no doubt!

 

I cant remember who it was but someone posted on JKB that they know a grade 1 referee, and he's been ordered to have a zero tolerance where Hearts are concerned, now if that's not cheating then I don't know what is, surely it has to be the same for all clubs?!

[Guest JamboRobbo]

OMG we get more paranoid by the day.

 

What an embarrasment.

 

He should be pulled up by FIFA for his comments.

[Commander Harris]

would anyone deny that there is a tendency in Scottish football circles to presume that Scottish players are, on the whole, more honest and less dirty players than those from elsewhere? Whether that be pundits saying "I know him and he's a good lad, he wouldn't deliberately try and injure someone/take a dive/etc/" or managers describing their players as "good honest Scottish laddies"?

I don't think it is out of the question that this superior attitude could make its way from spheres like punditry and management into refereeing.

 

a byproduct of this high opinion of ourselves is that we won't question the integrity of referees, because that's a foreign problem - "the referees in this country are not bent, just really poor".

[Charlie-Brown]

OMG we get more paranoid by the day.

 

What an embarrasment.

 

Enjoy your embarrassment JR - everyone else will have a rational debate about the percieved problem, how is it paranoia for a Lithuanian football official to react to comments from several of his own players that in their opinion they get a raw deal in Scotland?

[JT's & Irons]

At the end of the day the refereee's are only human. When yer weegia goes daft about certain players diving, (i.e. Not "being clever" or "playing for it"), when that player is fouled the ref is never gonna look at him sympathetically. It is racism, but I don't realise they are doing it TBH. Well, some of em. Some of em are just plungers, pure and simple.

[Boris]

Prior to Saturday Zaliukas had only 2 yellow cards for the entire Season.

The same number of yellows Chrisophe Berra and 2 less than Rob Jones.

 

That hardly suggest he's been given some sort of harsh treatment.

 

 

This is an arguement you will never, ever win because there are too many stats like the ones above that blow this SFA/anti-lithuanian theory out of the water.

 

What about his red v Ra Sellic?

 

Stats are only useful if you use them correctly! :xmasgrin:

 

As it stands I do think that Hearts and our overseas players (not just the lithuanians) get a raw deal fom the match officials.

 

this doesn't always manifest itself in the nature of coloured cards, but sometimes our players don't get the decisions you would expect.

 

I do agree that it is impossible to prove though.

[Gambo]

I would say the press are worse than referees when it comes to singling out our Lithuanian players. Majority of our foreign players were Lithuanian and whether we liked it or not some of them liked to dive. So when we got cards for diving it was normally a Lithuanian player that dived or wrongly accused of diving. Nothing do with Lithuania IMO that's just where our players are from.

 

We have/have had players from many nationalities including Scottish who are prone to go down easily, so do many(in fact all) teams, yet it seems more often than not the Lithuanians who are punished for it. Referees seem more eager and willing to punish them over others.

[Dazo]

We have/have had players from many nationalities including Scottish who are prone to go down easily, so do many(in fact all) teams, yet it seems more often than not the Lithuanians who are punished for it. Referees seem more eager and willing to punish them over others.

 

I would say the vast majority of our non Scottish divers over the past couple of years have been Lithuanian. Don't get me wrong I am not having a go at them I am just saying we get so many players from the one country it tends to be one of those players that gets the harsh treatment.

[portobellojambo1]

The SFA and the media must be forced into discussing the whole rotten state of Scottish football.

 

That is the crux of the matter.

 

Is there incompetence, yes, is there bias, yes, is there to a certain extent corruption (less easy to prove, but last Saturday's game at Pittodrie alone provided buckets of evidence to suggest yes), yes. Tackle these problems first and other problems that are perceived by some to exist, like every referee in the country specifically targeting players who have come here from Lithuania, should be automatically covered. We would get support on that, without we as a club going in head first and claiming that it is all down to a form of xenophobia, although only in the case of Lithuanians (which sort of fecks up the xenophobia argument, as the definition is a hatred/fear of all foreigners). Choose that route alone and I suspect we will get laughed at.

 

The system needs overhauled, but not as a result of racism. Christ if Scots referees were going to racially target "foreigners" the players you would expect to be most at risk in Scotland are English players.

[Gambo]

.

 

I do agree that it is impossible to prove though.

 

Correct.

 

But that does not mean we can't talk/discuss it or even better get others talking about it.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Enjoy your embarrassment JR - everyone else will have a rational debate about the percieved problem,

 

Rational debate?

 

"Oi, I feel hard done by, and I'm from a foreign country, so you must be xenephobic."

 

 

how is it paranoia for a Lithuanian football official to react to comments from several of his own players that in their opinion they get a raw deal in Scotland?

 

If he wasn't one of Vlads lackies, maybe his comments would have a bit more credibility and neutrality.

[Boris]

Correct.

 

But that does not mean we can't talk/discuss it or even better get others talking about it.

 

Indeed!

 

Perhaps we need an SFA "Whistleblower" to lift the lid, if you pardon the pun...

[hmfc_steve]

OMG we get more paranoid by the day.

 

What an embarrasment.

 

He should be pulled up by FIFA for his comments.

 

Clearly a deluded comment you make.... taking the holier than thou approach does not make your comments any more correct. Personally, I don't think there is an out and out race issue involving the Lithuanian players and referees..... but somethings a bit fishy when you see instant yellow/reds to this likes of Miko/Zal/Ches etc for innocuous incidents which other players seem to get away with.

I would also add that it is more like the Scottish media that has the racist problems regarding said players.

[Charlie-Brown]

Iam fairly certain Hearts players have received more cards in total for simulation than any other SPL team in the last couple of years, almost all of these have been received by Miko / Chesney / Ksanavicius / Velicka - yes they might have gone down easily but so do many other players throughout the league who receive way less cards or decisions against them - the number of cards we have received suggests direct targeting by referee's in my opinion.

[Gambo]

Rational debate?

 

 

 

 

If he wasn't one of Vlads lackies, maybe his comments would have a bit more credibility and neutrality.

 

So you have made your mind up, because he has an association to VR he must be talking tosh, but if he had no association to VR then he may have had some credibility.:xmaseye:

[Charlie-Brown]

Rational debate?

 

"Oi, I feel hard done by, and I'm from a foreign country, so you must be xenephobic."

 

 

 

 

If he wasn't one of Vlads lackies, maybe his comments would have a bit more credibility and neutrality.

 

So what about Miko & Zaliukas comments that they feel they don't get fair & equal treatment.

 

Anyway your opinions on this matter are hardly surprising, that aside Happy New Year!

[Commander Harris]

would anyone deny that there is a tendency in Scottish football circles to presume that Scottish players are, on the whole, more honest and less dirty players than those from elsewhere? Whether that be pundits saying "I know him and he's a good lad, he wouldn't deliberately try and injure someone/take a dive/etc/" or managers describing their players as "good honest Scottish laddies"?

I don't think it is out of the question that this superior attitude could make its way from spheres like punditry and management into refereeing.

 

a byproduct of this high opinion of ourselves is that we won't question the integrity of referees, because that's a foreign problem - "the referees in this country are not bent, just really poor".

 

I'll take that as a "no" then.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

So what about Miko & Zaliukas comments that they feel they don't get fair & equal treatment.

 

Again.

 

"Oi, I feel hard done by, and I'm from a foreign country, therefore it must be xenephobia".

 

Happy new year to you too.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Certainly in games I've watched DH Miko, Velicka & Ksanavicius were all carded more often for simulation than Clarkson, Nakamura, Mackie, Boyd, Broadfoot, Darcheville etc.

 

I don't recall Velcka or Ksanavicius being unfairly carded too often for simulation.

 

Infact Velicka got a player Red Carded by feigning injury.

 

 

Miko is another case altogether.

[Gambo]

I cant remember who it was but someone posted on JKB that they know a grade 1 referee, and he's been ordered to have a zero tolerance where Hearts are concerned, now if that's not cheating then I don't know what is, surely it has to be the same for all clubs?!

 

I know the reasons this referee won't come 'out' and tell us the story.

 

But if he loves his profession and the game as a whole, how can he sit back and still be part of that same profession/group/organisation if what he alleges goes on?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I don't recall Velcka or Ksanavicius being unfairly carded too often for simulation.

 

Infact Velicka got a player Red Carded by feigning injury.

 

That was a decision in our favour. We're meant to pretend it never happened.

[Dazo]

So you have made your mind up, because he has an association to VR he must be talking tosh, but if he had no association to VR then he may have had some credibility.:xmaseye:

 

Seriously don't you think that if someone with NO connection to VR had made those comments it would have a lot more credibility ?

 

 

Rightly or wrongly a lot of people will directly link these comments to VR.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

So you have made your mind up, because he has an association to VR he must be talking tosh, but if he had no association to VR then he may have had some credibility.:xmaseye:

 

I've made my mind up, that because he's a paid employee of VR, his comments come with a large pinch of salt.

 

If he wasn't connected in any way to VR, his comments would carry more weight IMO.

[Charlie-Brown]

I don't recall Velcka or Ksanavicius being unfairly carded too often for simulation.

 

Infact Velicka got a player Red Carded by feigning injury.

 

 

Miko is another case altogether.

 

It is unfair when other players commit the same offence (often even in the same games) and don't get carded for it.

[Drew Busby !]

As far as I can see, we as a club, and the SPL as a whole, can and should only focus on one important thing right now. Refereeing standards. They're at an all time low and I don't believe its down to individual clubs just bitching about the odd unfortunate decision now and again. It's happening on a weekly basis, some of the decisions made are disgraceful and safeguards like the appeals process are simply "broken" in their present form.

 

The cleverest smartest way to effect the required changes is to garner support as part of a broad SPL alliance for change and improvement. The SFA is nothing without it's major clubs, it's time that these clubs stood together and flexed their muscles.

 

On the pitch and as regards club management, Hearts have learned some lessons (well we hope so) since the appointment of Csaba. Lets see now if they have learned any lessons in the politics of domestic football. Bridge building with other SPL clubs and forming alliances is the only way to effect improvement. Crying xenophobia would leave us friendless and yet again, on our own.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Referee's can only card players when they are involved in incidents DH - just because other players have received more cards has nothing to do with whether certain players are treated harshly regards incidents they are involved in and also whether referee's are being fair and consistent in awarding cards for the same or similar offences.

 

IMO, the lack of cards does show that he's being treated the same as everyone else overall.

 

His Red Card on Saturday was a huge error by a very stubborn man.

[David Brent]

That is the crux of the matter.

 

Is there incompetence, yes, is there bias, yes, is there to a certain extent corruption (less easy to prove, but last Saturday's game at Pittodrie alone provided buckets of evidence to suggest yes), yes. Tackle these problems first and other problems that are perceived by some to exist, like every referee in the country specifically targeting players who have come here from Lithuania, should be automatically covered.

 

Absolutely! And the SFA's strategy has always been to simply ignore it until it goes away.

 

We would get support on that, without we as a club going in head first and claiming that it is all down to a form of xenophobia, although only in the case of Lithuanians (which sort of fecks up the xenophobia argument, as the definition is a hatred/fear of all foreigners). Choose that route alone and I suspect we will get laughed at.

 

The system needs overhauled, but not as a result of racism. Christ if Scots referees were going to racially target "foreigners" the players you would expect to be most at risk in Scotland are English players.

 

Agreed. But sometimes the end justifies the means. If the SFA and media are forced to defend themselves against discrimination or an anti-Lithuanian bias, then we can hopefully get the debate into the open.

 

[Gambo]

Again.

 

"Oi, I feel hard done by, and I'm from a foreign country, therefore it must be xenephobia".

 

Happy new year to you too.

 

Or............ 'It is claimed by a Lithuanian so there must not be a an ounce of truth in it'. ????

[gorgie rd eh11]

OMG we get more paranoid by the day.

 

What an embarrasment.

 

He should be pulled up by FIFA for his comments.

 

 

 

 

 

Where's the head in the sand smiley when you need it:xmastongue:

[Gambo]

I've made my mind up, that because he's a paid employee of VR, his comments come with a large pinch of salt.

 

If he wasn't connected in any way to VR, his comments would carry more weight IMO.

 

Do you think what was said (and not who said them) has any credibilty?

[Gambo]

Seriously don't you think that if someone with NO connection to VR had made those comments it would have a lot more credibility ?

 

 

Rightly or wrongly a lot of people will directly link these comments to VR.

 

Then try and read the comments instead of focusing too much on who made the comment.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Do you think what was said (and not who said them) has any credibilty?

 

Not without concrete evidence no.

 

And before you claim that you have it, it'll take a lot more than a video of a decision going against someone to convince any reasonable unbiased person that there is xenephobia at play.

 

For example, do you think it's xenephobia when McGeady gets stick? Cause he and the paranoid Celtic fans do.......

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Not without concrete evidence no.

 

And before you claim that you have it, it'll take a lot more than a video of a decision going against someone to convince any reasonable unbiased person that there is xenephobia at play.

 

For example, do you think it's xenephobia when McGeady gets stick? Cause he and the paranoid Celtic fans do.......

 

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read through this thread.

 

We are more like the Old Firm than we like to think.

[portobellojambo1]

yes they might have gone down easily but so do many other players throughout the league who receive way less cards or decisions against them - the number of cards we have received suggests direct targeting by referee's in my opinion.

 

I went back to look, because I knew you had posted some names that fell into the above category Charlie, and 4 of the 6 names you mention within post 39 (I think, cannot be bothered going looking again) are players from either Rangers or Celtic, and 1 other has a family connection with a former Celtic player (deceased), which at the very least is a sum of 66.67%.

 

To me that proves that the beliefs of incompetence/bias and to a certain degree, corruption is the route to go down. Through proving these and changing the system the perceived racism should take care of itself.

 

I suspect that if Mikoliunas, Zaliukas and Ksanavicius all played for one or t'other half of the OF the number of bookings/red cards they had received would be much less, which again only goes to promote the bias viewpoint rather than the racist viewpoint.

 

I think it would be much easier for us, and the other non OF clubs, to prove we/they get picked on for reasons of bias than reasons of racism.

[Drylaw Hearts]

What about his red v Ra Sellic?

 

Stats are only useful if you use them correctly! :xmasgrin:

 

As it stands I do think that Hearts and our overseas players (not just the lithuanians) get a raw deal fom the match officials.

 

this doesn't always manifest itself in the nature of coloured cards, but sometimes our players don't get the decisions you would expect.

 

I do agree that it is impossible to prove though.

 

I was only using the 'Yellow Cards' as an example Boris.

 

His Red Card v Celtic will not have been given because he's Lithuanian. I actually thought it was a Red Card at the game, as did many guys around me, so I can hardly have a go at the Ref now that I've had the benefit of TV replays.

 

I don't think Refs step onto the park gunning for us but I do think they are less tolerant of our players.

 

 

Julien Brellier was booked 14 times in 2005/2006 which was as many as the rest of the Lithuanians put together.

 

Trying to prove anyone at the SFA is Anti-Lithuanian will only end in disaster fo us.

[Gambo]

Not without concrete evidence no.

 

And before you claim that you have it, it'll take a lot more than a video of a decision going against someone to convince any reasonable unbiased person that there is xenephobia at play.

 

For example, do you think it's xenephobia when McGeady gets stick? Cause he and the paranoid Celtic fans do.......

 

So it didn't matter if the person making the comment was associated to VR or not, there was no credibility, but you just had to have a go at VR.

 

 

Re McGeady, yes there is no doubt that there are some who have a go at him solely for his choice of country to play for, but there are plenty who have a go at him because of the way he plays and because he plays for the opposing team.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Nice piece. Wonder why our own Gordon Smith never thought of making comments along the same lines. Another red face for our association.

[Gambo]

I don't think Refs step onto the park gunning for us but I do think they are less tolerant of our players. Yet you think Boyd in a Hearts jersey playing the same way he has for Rangers this season would still have only received 3 bookings? I thought you thought they would be less tolerant of our players so i would expect Boyd to have a few more bookings if he was playing for us in the same manner as he has played for them????

 

 

 

Trying to prove anyone at the SFA is Anti-Lithuanian will only end in disaster fo us.

 

The matter is finished as far as Hearts are concerned, so how will it end up in disaster for us?

[ando]

if he is booked or sent off for being from Lithuania then once is too many

[Drew Busby !]

Nice piece. Wonder why our own Gordon Smith never thought of making comments along the same lines. Another red face for our association.

 

Gordon Smith is the paranoid incompetent face for an incompetent 3rd-rate football body. But thats a whole other story.

 

All the more reason for Hearts not to give the SFA the easy option of presenting Hearts players as victims of xenophobic referees. Theres no support to be gained on that, none whatsoever.

 

But incompetent refereeing ? The level of pent-up frustration amongst other SPL clubs, manager, players and fans just needs a focus. We could be a part of that or we can be part of a diversionary tactic that gives the SFA yet another excuse to act blind on the issue.

[269miles]

 

I do agree that it is impossible to prove though.

 

Very true but the cat is out of the bag to the extent a foreign national FA is now involved in criticising the SFA because of the perceived behaviour of its officials (the Lith FA must be loving this after Gordhun Smiths snide remarks about Miko).

 

The SFA are in a very difficult position : they have to respond to accusations of xenophobia (a very serious allegation to make). The SFA can't DISPROVE the accusation . In fact the SFA case is seriously undermined by the fact the appeals process strung up an innocent man. Their lawyers must be earning their cash at the moment.

 

 

 

 

Nice work by Vlad in getting this guy involved

[Charlie-Brown]

Varanavicius highlighted a perceived problem which is a continuation of previous comments by some of his players that they don't receive fair & equal treatment, now whilst his choice of language is stronger than it perhaps needed to be one thing it does is bring the matter to wider public attention and no doubt referee's will be under closer scrutiny regards their decisions towards Lithuanian players - this might ensure they get fairer treatment in future although knowing the vindictive nature of some of our refs i suppose they could get worse treatment (if that's possible?).

[Gambo]

Very true but the cat is out of the bag to the extent a foreign national FA is now involved in criticising the SFA because of the perceived behaviour of its officials (the Lith FA must be loving this after Gordhun Smiths snide remarks about Miko).

 

The SFA are in a very difficult position : they have to respond to accusations of xenophobia (a very serious allegation to make). The SFA can't DISPROVE the accusation . In fact the SFA case is seriously undermined by the fact the appeals process strung up an innocent man. Their lawyers must be earning their cash at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly, the LFA have history with the SFA over similar. (ie it was at LFA-SFA level and nothing to do with Hearts)

[Drylaw Hearts]

Yet you think Boyd in a Hearts jersey playing the same way he has for Rangers this season would still have only received 3 bookings? I thought you thought they would be less tolerant of our players so i would expect Boyd to have a few more bookings if he was playing for us in the same manner as he has played for them????

 

The question you asked was impossible to answer.

 

You want to believe that situations like that above are true but actually have no way of proving it.

 

Getting worked up about hypothetical issues deflects away from the real issues.

 

The matter is finished as far as Hearts are concerned, so how will it end up in disaster for us?

 

Clearly it isn't or VR would not have got his UEFA puppet to put his view across.

[John S]

Varanavicius highlighted a perceived problem which is a continuation of previous comments by some of his players that they don't receive fair & equal treatment, now whilst his choice of language is stronger than it perhaps needed to be one thing it does is bring the matter to wider public attention and no doubt referee's will be under closer scrutiny regards their decisions towards Lithuanian players - this might ensure they get fairer treatment in future although knowing the vindictive nature of some of our refs i suppose theycould get worse treatment (if that's possbile?).

 

I think you're right Charlie in regards to refs being under closer scrutiny, in the short term at least. This has happened before however, when some journos started to question if Hearts were getting a fair deal, and in return refs appeared to adopt a more balanced approach to us, but it didn't last and I'd expect a similar pattern this time.

 

Varanvicius is a man of integrity (imo) and I understand that he is viewed as a young star in the Yoofa corridors of power, so its helpful (imo) to have such a man air these views. If the SFA had any baws at all (which they don't) you'd expect then to formally complain about Liutauras's comments, they won't of couse as that would simply serve to bring the issue to higher prominence and expose them for what they are. So instead of challenging thsse comments the SFA will turn their back and take it up the rectum like the bitches they are.

[Drew Busby !]

I'm no lawyer but how would this issue be viewed if taking a legal mentality ? What would be the line to take with the greatest chance of success ?

 

Try to "prove" xenophobia (even if it existed) ? Whether we agree or disagree on it's existence, we all agree that it can't be proven. Any attempt to do so is then likely to rebound on the accuser(s).

 

Try to prove incomptetence ? Somewhat higher chance there. Lots of video evidence out there from inumerable games involving many other clubs. An appeals process that allows a referee to act as his own non-impartial judge. Volumes and volumes of testimony from other SPL clubs, players and fans.

 

You could build a strong case from the latter approach. Its surely the approach taken by prosectors since time began. If you can't build a winning case on the more serious charge, then build it on something where you DO have a chance of winning. Same approach that put Al Capone in jail for tax evasion

[gorgie rd eh11]

I was only using the 'Yellow Cards' as an example Boris.

 

His Red Card v Celtic will not have been given because he's Lithuanian. I actually thought it was a Red Card at the game, as did many guys around me, so I can hardly have a go at the Ref now that I've had the benefit of TV replays.

 

I don't think Refs step onto the park gunning for us but I do think they are less tolerant of our players.

 

 

Julien Brellier was booked 14 times in 2005/2006 which was as many as the rest of the Lithuanians put together.

 

Trying to prove anyone at the SFA is Anti-Lithuanian will only end in disaster fo us.

 

 

 

In that one incident the linesman managed to miss the celtic player being offside and outside the box when fouled. This was after the other linesman had missed Caldwell slapping the ball down with his hand to poke into the net. This is the same eagle eyed officials who set speed records raising their flags at any hint of a Hearts player committing any offense.