Sectarianism / Outrage.

[Erik]

Been to hundreds of football games.

 

I dont have to show you any historical posts.

 

If you seriously cant see why people find hearing vile sectarianism or racism is unacceptable then theres no point in you debating.

I'll ask again WHY is something so clearly unacceptable deemed acceptable because it is done in a football ground?

 

Thats a double edged sword mate.....

 

I'll ask you a similar question - why IS it acceptable to call someone fat / bald / blind / incompetent / useless / ginger in a football ground?

[Diego10]

Poorest effort to skip around a posters points, because you know they are good ones, ever.

 

 

there was nothing good about them. You only sing sectarian songs if you are a bigot, or 13 and don't know any better. using 'it's at a football match' to justify it is lame in the extreme.

[coppercrutch]

Thats a double edged sword mate.....

 

I'll ask you a similar question - why IS it acceptable to call someone fat / bald / blind / incompetent / useless / ginger in a football ground?

 

Just what I was going to ask

 

These people just don't get what you are saying. Well actually I think they do. They just simply don't want to admit you have a decent point.

 

Football is different. People act diferently within a football stadium than they would outside it. Some of these actions are accepted as ok, because they occur in a football stadiums. Some however are not. You can't really pick and choose IMO.

 

If you are going to get angry about someone abusing someone's religion, then you also have to get angry about abusing somebodies size, or lack of hair, or necessity to wear glasses.

 

It is ok to abuse someone because thay are fat, however it is scandalous and disgusting to abuse that same person because they go to a certain Church.

 

That is what we are being told here. That, IMO, is simply ridiculous.

 

there was nothing good about them. You only sing sectarian songs if you are a bigot, or 13 and don't know any better. using 'it's at a football match' to justify it is lame in the extreme.

 

Another person who simply won't admit when others make a decent point. Sad really.

 

I have explained how I think football is different to the outside World. It is a reasonable point whether you like it or not.

[Diego10]

 

 

Another person who simply won't admit when others make a decent point. Sad really.

 

I have explained how I think football is different to the outside World. It is a reasonable point whether you like it or not.

 

If you ever make one, I'll admit it was decent. but it's a pathetic cop-out to claim it's ok because you're at the football. I don't really go in for personal abuse of players, but someone is fat by their own choices. abusing someone for the colour of their skin or religion is laughable.

[MacDonald Jardine]

If you ever make one, I'll admit it was decent. but it's a pathetic cop-out to claim it's ok because you're at the football. I don't really go in for personal abuse of players, but someone is fat by their own choices. abusing someone for the colour of their skin or religion is laughable.

 

What about bald folk?

Ginger hair?

Although I suppose it's their choice not to die it or wear a wig.

[Diego10]

What about bald folk?

Ginger hair?

Although I suppose it's their choice not to die it or wear a wig.

 

being bald is hard lines. there's no hatred in that form of abuse though. same wi ginger folk. Sectarian and Racist abuse is based on the notion that the person is inferior because of their religion or colour. which is nonsense.

[Sharpie]

I will start by saying in the big realm of the real world I don't think any of it really has any impact. What is the cause, I suppose if one was a student of phsychology you would opine that it was another manifestation of the wanting to belong syndrome. Just like the executives membership in a private golf club, or the urban youth who joins the neighbourhood gang.

 

My own relationship with sectarianism was to say the least minimal. On occasions when the Old Man had a problem at work he would at home come out with the statement "you cannae trust a Catholic". Life has taught me that that can be applied to all creeds colors and religions, at times.

 

Sectarianism amongst my boyhood peers was non existent, we all played together got into trouble together, and religion was really a non issue. Being a BB or Scout annually becoming a matter for discussion. My first real encounter with the West Coast brand of sectarianism was as A naive youth of 17 at the Guards Depot. One of the guys a bit older having served an apprenticeship sang this real catchy song, something about a sash. I thought it was musically great having no idea the meaning of the content. Iwas blissfully singing it in the barrack room when the Trained Soldier appeared. He told me I had a great voice and would I sing a bit more. When I got up off the floor I asked in surprise what I had done. It was then explained to me by the Catholic Trained Soldier what the song was all about. There ended the first lesson.

 

On going into the police I had the good fortune to attend games on duty. It never ceased to amaze me how my religion changed dependent on which branch of the old firm were playing, one week we Hearts fans were dirty Protestant *******s, the next week our lack of married parents and our lack of hygiene was supplemented by the word Papish.

 

I have in this long disitation(sp) tried to point out that sectarianism has been around for a long time. I have to admit though reading a number of forums that it seems to have got considerably worse, and affects all more readily, but then the word hate is so prevalent in feelings expressed about other teams and their support , and of course as has happened through the centuries up to today religion is an excellent vehicle upon which to ride to justify ones hatred and violence.

[coppercrutch]

If you ever make one, I'll admit it was decent. but it's a pathetic cop-out to claim it's ok because you're at the football. I don't really go in for personal abuse of players, but someone is fat by their own choices. abusing someone for the colour of their skin or religion is laughable.

 

being bald is hard lines. there's no hatred in that form of abuse though. same wi ginger folk. Sectarian and Racist abuse is based on the notion that the person is inferior because of their religion or colour. which is nonsense.

 

You are not really helping your argument here - are you?..

 

So somebody is fat by their own choice ? Fine. So what about religion ? Is that not somebody's own choice too?

 

So your argument goes along the lines of the following:

 

It is ok to shout abuse at someone because they choose to be fat.

It is not ok to shout abuse at someoen because they choose to be a certain religion.

 

Wow. How could I have been so stupid. Your argument is immense.

 

So sectarian or racist abuse is based on some sort of inferiorty argument ? Well I am sure sometimes it is. However maybe sometimes people don't like a certain religion. Maybe sometimes people don't like a certain race of people ?

 

Not very nice I agree. Still it is perfectly within their rights to do so.

 

If someone chooses to dislike gingers, black people, catholics, protestants, vikings or eskimo's that is up to them.

 

I certainly won't be telling them they are not allowed this opinion.

[MacDonald Jardine]

being bald is hard lines. there's no hatred in that form of abuse though. same wi ginger folk. Sectarian and Racist abuse is based on the notion that the person is inferior because of their religion or colour. which is nonsense.

 

That's wasn't the point you made firts.

 

So that's okay to abuse on these grounds?

How do you know there's no hatred?

If I don't discriminate against black people in everyday life is it okay to shout about the being black?

[Erik]

Sectarian and Racist abuse is based on the notion that the person is inferior because of their religion or colour. which is nonsense.

 

As opposed to being inferior due to the colour of your hair, or indeed lack of it, paired with the fact you need to wear specks and have an above average waistline..... the implication of THAT kinda inferiority is well based right enough..... No nonsense there huh.....!!

[Forever Maroon]

doesn't bother me in the slightest.....

[McJambo]

As I said previously its a sad day when the only way Scottish football can achieve a good atmosphere is through religious bigotry. When I've been working down South I've attended games at a lot of grounds including Old Trafford, White Hart Lane and St James Park and witnesseed some electric atmospheres with no sectarianism involved.

 

You think the Man Utd, Liverpool , Chelsea Arsenal fans all sing socially acceptable songs supporting there team for an atmopshere?

 

Liverpool fans sing about Man Utd players dying in Munich, Man Utd return with chants about Hillsborough.

 

Tottenhams fans sing racist abuse about Adebayor and his mum being a whore.

 

I'm sure theres plenty more.

[bigandy]

You think the Man Utd, Liverpool , Chelsea Arsenal fans all sing socially acceptable songs supporting there team for an atmopshere?

 

Liverpool fans sing about Man Utd players dying in Munich, Man Utd return with chants about Hillsborough.

 

Tottenhams fans sing racist abuse about Adebayor and his mum being a whore.

 

I'm sure theres plenty more.

 

 

You are right there are many unacceptable songs in England. My point is and remains that only in Scotland do people find religious hatred a necesarry ingredient in a football match.

[Diego10]

You are not really helping your argument here - are you?..

 

So somebody is fat by their own choice ? Fine. So what about religion ? Is that not somebody's own choice too?

 

So your argument goes along the lines of the following:

 

It is ok to shout abuse at someone because they choose to be fat.

It is not ok to shout abuse at someoen because they choose to be a certain religion.

 

Wow. How could I have been so stupid. Your argument is immense.

 

So sectarian or racist abuse is based on some sort of inferiorty argument ? Well I am sure sometimes it is. However maybe sometimes people don't like a certain religion. Maybe sometimes people don't like a certain race of people ?

 

Not very nice I agree. Still it is perfectly within their rights to do so.

 

If someone chooses to dislike gingers, black people, catholics, protestants, vikings or eskimo's that is up to them.

 

I certainly won't be telling them they are not allowed this opinion.

 

see what you're doing there is taking half my argument and making up the rest. I said I don't go in for personal abuse of players, so I'm afraid I'm not saying it's ok to abuse someone for being fat. sorry. My point about the nature of the abuse though is it's a completely different beast. Bald people aren't physically attacked or subject to discrimination for being bald. neither are fat people. or Gingers.

 

and yes it is someone's choice to be racist or bigoted. which if I recall correctly you were arguing was not the case when abusing people at the football because it's a different context, but that's symptomatic of your movable morality. you can be fine with that if you want. I think it's pathetic.

[Victor Meldrew]

Personally, I don't get offended by the substance of sectarian songs.

 

However, I do think that there is no place for sectarianism in football.

 

Why?

 

Because everyone should be able to support any team they want, regardless of creed / colour / religion / nationality.

 

For example, there is nothing wrong per se with a song such as 'Derry's Walls' or 'The Sash' nor 'The Fields of Athenry'. They are all songs commemorating historical events, just like 'Flower of Scotland' which, after all, is a song about beating the English in battle almost 700 years ago. The thing is they have no place in a football ground because they seek to exclude from supporting a particular team due to their religion or other characteristic.

 

One of the main purposes of the Rangers fans singing 'Derry's Walls' 'Rule Britannia' or 'The Sash' is, in my view, to make it clear that they don't welcome Irish catholic supporters. Similarly, the Celtic fans sing their 'Rebel' songs to show that they don't welcome protestant British fans.

 

That's just wrong in my view: if I wanted to support Celtic, why shouldn't I be able to feel as entitled to as anyone else? That's why sectarianism is a problem in my view.

 

The history of Ireland is irrelevant to Scottish football. So is the religion of the fans and the players. It therefore has no place.

 

Don't get me wrong: I don't think we should have a sanitised, banter-free football environment. There's no reason whywe shouldn't all slag each other off as much as we can. It's only Scotland where there seems to be a need to bring religion and Irish history into things. I find that quite sad.

[MacDonald Jardine]

You are right there are many unacceptable songs in England. My point is and remains that only in Scotland do people find religious hatred a necesarry ingredient in a football match.

 

Including Spurs in the list doesn't exactly help that argument.

 

And Arsenal/ Man Utd/ Everton are perceived by many as Catholic teams.

[Diego10]

That's wasn't the point you made firts.

 

So that's okay to abuse on these grounds?

How do you know there's no hatred?

If I don't discriminate against black people in everyday life is it okay to shout about the being black?

 

As with coppercrutch you're saying I'm saying that it is 'ok' to abuse people for being fat or bald. I'm not. If you think it's on the same level of seriousness as religious bigotry or racism though I'd suggest you were wrong.

[McJambo]

You are right there are many unacceptable songs in England. My point is and remains that only in Scotland do people find religious hatred a necesarry ingredient in a football match.

 

It's not a necessary ingredient.

 

Spurs fans arent all racist, but I bet 99% of them join in the Adebayor chant

 

Why?

 

Becasue they hate Arsenal.

 

Same reason Hearts fans sing Hello Hello, to wind up Celtic.

 

Same scenario?

[coppercrutch]

You are right there are many unacceptable songs in England. My point is and remains that only in Scotland do people find religious hatred a necesarry ingredient in a football match.

 

Well maybe we should count ourselves lucky.

 

Yes - sectarianism is a part of life in Scotland. However when it comes to football it usually results in chants, sometimes a bit of violence and very occasionally deaths.

 

Majority of the time it is words, 'faux' hatred, and not much else.

 

In places like India - people are burned alive in trains due to their religious beliefs.

 

We really don't have it too bad here. I think anyone who thinks that needs to do a bit of travelling to open their eyes.

[londonjambo]

Another thread on here got me thinking about this.....

 

I'm just wondering how many folk on here are actually GENUINELY offended when they hear "sectarian" sing songs at the football?? How many folk really GENUINELY leave the match sickened by what they've heard??

 

If I'm totally honest, I think I'd say that the songs sung by both Rangers AND Celtic dont actually offend me one bit. In both instances, I see it as nothing more than an annoyance. They sing their songs to wind us up and it works a treat.

 

They wind us up, we wind them up. Thats what rivalry is all about no?

 

All the best footballing atmosphere's come when something controversial happens...... be it a dodgy goal, a dodgy penalty, a dodgy decision, a dodgy tackle or just the words that echo from the terraces.

 

I will concede however that there ARE some who will be "sickened" by what they hear at the football. Then again, there are some who will leave the football offended about the use of the "F-word" during those 90 minutes. I suspect that the number of folk really truly genuinlely offended / sickened by this kinda thing are in their minority.

 

Our love of football reaches far deeper than the confides of the pitch itself - our love of the game is based upon the experience as a whole.... the way it makes us feel when we're in the middle of that atmoshpere amongst like minded individuals.

 

When you take the controversy out the game, you take away the appeal of the atmosphere.

 

Given a choice of a Hearts vs Rangers match observed from the stand in utter silence.... or a Hearts vs Rangers match with a heated atmosphere with whatever "offensive" sing songs they wanna sing............ I know what I'd choose every time.

 

Sectarianism isnt whats killing football. Mock outrage is.

 

Dont bother calling me a bigot - I'm not.

Dont bother calling me a mini-hun - I'm not.

Dont bother calling me a Celtic sympathiser - I'm not.

Dont bother calling me a Hobo - I'm not.

 

I'm just interested to hear how sectarianism REALLY makes folk feel. What REALLY goes through your head when you hear the word fenian coming out?

 

 

I am GENUINELY offended by certain songs that certain Hearts supporters sing. I am not offended by others but understand that others might be and that, therefore, it is unacceptable to sing them

 

GC

[Victor Meldrew]

It's not a necessary ingredient.

 

Spurs fans arent all racist, but I bet 99% of them join in the Adebayor chant

 

Why?

 

Becasue they hate Arsenal.

 

Same reason Hearts fans sing Hello Hello, to wind up Celtic.

 

Same scenario?

 

But if I were a catholic (particularly one from the West of Scotland) who wanted to support HMFC, I would feel excluded by the fact that I had to sing about 'Fenian Blood' in order to be a Hearts fan.

[coppercrutch]

see what you're doing there is taking half my argument and making up the rest. I said I don't go in for personal abuse of players, so I'm afraid I'm not saying it's ok to abuse someone for being fat. sorry. My point about the nature of the abuse though is it's a completely different beast. Bald people aren't physically attacked or subject to discrimination for being bald. neither are fat people. or Gingers.

 

and yes it is someone's choice to be racist or bigoted. which if I recall correctly you were arguing was not the case when abusing people at the football because it's a different context, but that's symptomatic of your movable morality. you can be fine with that if you want. I think it's pathetic.

 

I have not made up anything. You have picked and chosen what sort of abuse is 'acceptable' in your mind. You expect everyone else to go along with that - without question.

 

You really think that is a fair and reasonable way to address this subject ?

 

I am sorry but I think someone absuing a fat person or a Catholic is usually the same 'beast' as you say.

 

I can guarantee you most folk shouting abuse at catholics during a football game have no problem with them in the outside World.

I can guarantee you most folk shouting abuse at fat people during a football game have no problem with them in the outside World.

 

Neither is very pleasant. Neither is really 'acceptable' to the person getting abused.

 

If you get offended at one and not the other, IMO, that makes you rather strange.

 

I don't get it.

[coppercrutch]

But if I were a catholic (particularly one from the West of Scotland) who wanted to support HMFC, I would feel excluded by the fact that I had to sing about 'Fenian Blood' in order to be a Hearts fan.

 

 

When did this happen. I am sure HMFC has many Catholic fans. Maybe a few Buddhists too.

[bigandy]

Well maybe we should count ourselves lucky.

 

Yes - sectarianism is a part of life in Scotland. However when it comes to football it usually results in chants, sometimes a bit of violence and very occasionally deaths.

 

Majority of the time it is words, 'faux' hatred, and not much else.

 

In places like India - people are burned alive in trains due to their religious beliefs.

 

We really don't have it too bad here. I think anyone who thinks that needs to do a bit of travelling to open their eyes.

 

I've done plenty of travelling and I'm well aware of religious and racial opression in various parts of the world. But in the same way as some have stated that they dont care what OF fans sing but do care about what Hearts fans sing I feel the same way about Scotland/other countries.

 

I dont really care what happens in India because I live in Scotland. What happens in India does not affect me or my country. What happens in Scotland does. To sweep things under the carpet just because other countries have worse problems is wrong. There is nothing you, I or anyone else in Scotland can do about what happens in other countries but we can keep our own house in order.

[Governor Tarkin]

Maybe a few Buddhists too.

 

I know one of them. Section N lad. Doesn't wear the orange robes to the games though.

[Diego10]

I have not made up anything. You have picked and chosen what sort of abuse is 'acceptable' in your mind. You expect everyone else to go along with that - without question.

 

You really think that is a fair and reasonable way to address this subject ?

 

I am sorry but I think someone absuing a fat person or a Catholic is usually the same 'beast' as you say.

 

I can guarantee you most folk shouting abuse at catholics during a football game have no problem with them in the outside World.

I can guarantee you most folk shouting abuse at fat people during a football game have no problem with them in the outside World.

 

Neither is very pleasant. Neither is really 'acceptable' to the person getting abused.

 

If you get offended at one and not the other, IMO, that makes you rather strange.

 

I don't get it.

 

jesus. are you blind or wilfully ignorant. Can you point to anywhere I said it was ok to abuse fat people? Or where I said I was offended by it, or any other form of abuse? I'll save you the time of looking for it, because I didn't.

 

I disagree with your point of view that people can switch off and switch on being a bigot for 90 minutes a week. It doesn't work that way, which I'm pretty sure you know fine well to be honest.

 

I can guarantee you most folk singing about being 'up to their knees in fenian blood' DO have a problem with catholics in the real world. that's the bottom line.

[primrose]

The question isnt if I am offended by this or not, the question is, do those targeted by it find it offensive? Obviuosly yes they do. Does it show our club up in a good light? A reputation has taken many years to build, but it can only take one incient to lose. Its like that old gag, you shag one sheep.......

 

And would I be happy for one of my own kids to sing this stuff, hear this stuff, or even feel comfortable if they asked about this stuff? Of course not, im not some goody two shoes, I swear and curse and moan like most do at the games, but somehow there is a line that has been drawn on what is and isnt acceptable. If that line gets pushed as the years go by, where does it end?

 

You cant be a racist, bigot, or homophobe for 90 mins, you either are or you are not. Decency should prevail.

 

You burn one witch..............

[McJambo]

jesus. are you blind or wilfully ignorant. Can you point to anywhere I said it was ok to abuse fat people? Or where I said I was offended by it, or any other form of abuse? I'll save you the time of looking for it, because I didn't.

 

I disagree with your point of view that people can switch off and switch on being a bigot for 90 minutes a week. It doesn't work that way, which I'm pretty sure you know fine well to be honest.

 

I can guarantee you most folk singing about being 'up to their knees in fenian blood' DO have a problem with catholics in the real world. that's the bottom line.

 

I sing Hello Hello at derby games and Celtic games.

 

I've never been to church or followed any religion all my life and couldn't give a **** if someone I passed in the street or sat next to on a bus was a catholic.

[Paris 84]

Ok, so you DO have a problem with the weedgies singing those lyrics?

 

Your problem is of such a magnitude that you dont care?

 

Your so offended by the lyrics that you choose to laugh at the weedgies for singing them?

 

The last line of your post is interesting though......

 

Let me be clear on this because I actually don't think it's that hard to follow.......Rangers and Celtic fans can sing their hate filled tribal anthems until their dying day. As far as I'm concerned they're brain dead the whole lot of them who participate. If UEFA want to ban them, dock them points etc for singing these songs then that's even better.

 

In my opinion these songs have no place in Edinburgh, and I personally don't want my club associated with them.

 

Please explain why the last line is interesting though?

[Stanley_]

I sing Hello Hello at derby games and Celtic games.

 

I've never been to church or followed any religion all my life and couldn't give a **** if someone I passed in the street or sat next to on a bus was a catholic.

 

That's like saying:

 

"I sing Oh Edinburgh is Wonderful and shout racist abuse at players.

 

I'm not racist to anyone outside of football and couldn't give a **** if someone I passed in the street or sat next to on a bus was black etc."

 

I find it odd that people are on here saying they're not racist, sectarian etc but they should be able to behave like that at a match.

[Gambo]

But if I were a catholic (particularly one from the West of Scotland) who wanted to support HMFC, I would feel excluded by the fact that I had to sing about 'Fenian Blood' in order to be a Hearts fan.

 

Not saying it makes it correct, but i attend games with catholic supporting Hearts fans who used to sing that song as loud as anyone else as they seen it as a rousing football song. They like many others imo never actually paid much attention to the words in that line. It is only now that every song a football fan sings to create atmosphere is disected by the PC brigade that we have stopped singing it (atmosphere at games is poorer for it, but if brought back should be with maybe different words).

 

Anyone who takes anything they hear at a football game too seriously, well...............enough said.

 

TBH i am not offended by any song i hear at a game by any set of fans. Fans are there imo to help support their team by making it uncomfortable for the opposition players and their fans. In saying that they have to be football'ish related songs, no place for Rule Brittania/FoA etc (though neither offend me).

 

Rugby is the game for you if you want to compliment the opposition through the game and make them feel welcome/special, football is different in that way, we as fans want to and enjoy making it uncomfortable for the opposition in the hope it will help our team.

 

Speak to normal (if there is such a thing) Rangers/Celtic fan and ask them if they are seriously offended by any song sung at them from the 'other side' and i think the vast majority will say no.

[Dazo]

Do any of those members who feel so disgusted and outraged actually do anything about it other sit on the moral high horse ?

[Dazo]

Not saying it makes it correct, but i attend games with catholic supporting Hearts fans who used to sing that song as loud as anyone else as they seen it as a rousing football song. They like many others imo never actually paid much attention to the words in that line. It is only now that every song a football fan sings to create atmosphere is disected by the PC brigade that we have stopped singing it (atmosphere at games is poorer for it, but if brought back should be with maybe different words).

 

Anyone who takes anything they hear at a football game too seriously, well...............enough said.

 

TBH i am not offended by any song i hear at a game by any set of fans. Fans are there imo to help support their team by making it uncomfortable for the opposition players and their fans. In saying that they have to be football'ish related songs, no place for Rule Brittania/FoA etc (though neither offend me).

 

Rugby is the game for you if you want to compliment the opposition through the game and make them feel welcome/special, football is different in that way, we as fans want to and enjoy making it uncomfortable for the opposition in the hope it will help our team.

 

Speak to normal (if there is such a thing) Rangers/Celtic fan and ask them if they are seriously offended by any song sung at them from the 'other side' and i think the vast majority will say no.

 

Oh dear I completely agree.

[Victor Meldrew]

 

When did this happen. I am sure HMFC has many Catholic fans. Maybe a few Buddhists too.

 

So you know how every fan feels when 'Hello Hello' is sung? Are you really saying our catholic supporters will all be pleased that some of our fans are singing about being 'up to our knees in fenian blood"?

 

Also I imagine that some catholics from Edinburgh support Hibs rather than Hearts precisely because of the sectarianism issue and the feeling that certain types of people aren't welcome as supporters of certain clubs.

 

The thing that puzzles me about those who seem to want to preserve sectarianism is that they don't see how petty and juvenile it all is.

[Stanley_]

So you know how every fan feels when 'Hello Hello' is sung? Are you really saying our catholic supporters will all be pleased that some of our fans are singing about being 'up to our knees in fenian blood"?

 

Also I imagine that some catholics from Edinburgh support Hibs rather than Hearts precisely because of the sectarianism issue and the feeling that certain types of people aren't welcome as supporters of certain clubs.

 

The thing that puzzles me about those who seem to want to preserve sectarianism is that they don't see how petty and juvenile it all is.

 

Again I agree with all of that. If I'd been black or Catholic and sitting where I was at the game yesterday then I don't think I'd have felt very welcome there considering what some of the people around me were chanting.

 

No argument will ever convince me that we should still be singing about being up to our knees in fenian blood. Least of all it being just a bit of fun or that it has been sung by Hearts fans for years.

[londonjambo]

So you know how every fan feels when 'Hello Hello' is sung? Are you really saying our catholic supporters will all be pleased that some of our fans are singing about being 'up to our knees in fenian blood"?

 

Also I imagine that some catholics from Edinburgh support Hibs rather than Hearts precisely because of the sectarianism issue and the feeling that certain types of people aren't welcome as supporters of certain clubs.The thing that puzzles me about those who seem to want to preserve sectarianism is that they don't see how petty and juvenile it all is.

 

I know this for a fact.

 

Also, how does "Edinburgh is Wonderful" fit in to this great theory that its just banter to wind up the opposition and doesnt signify that the singer actually believes in the offensive message being sent

 

How are the opposition going to be wound up by knowing that Edinburgh would be wonderful if it wasnt for those pesky Jews and *******. Right enough, I bet that has the opposition fans shaking with rage.

 

Would one of our NON-PC "Brigade" explain that to me

 

GC

[MacDonald Jardine]

So you know how every fan feels when 'Hello Hello' is sung? Are you really saying our catholic supporters will all be pleased that some of our fans are singing about being 'up to our knees in fenian blood"?

 

Also I imagine that some catholics from Edinburgh support Hibs rather than Hearts precisely because of the sectarianism issue and the feeling that certain types of people aren't welcome as supporters of certain clubs.

 

The thing that puzzles me about those who seem to want to preserve sectarianism is that they don't see how petty and juvenile it all is.

 

I'd imagine most Catholics in Edinburgh support Hibs because it's the obvious team for them to support.

And that goes back to their foundation, nothing to do with us.

[Sherlock]

I'd imagine most Catholics in Edinburgh support Hibs because it's the obvious team for them to support.

And that goes back to their foundation, nothing to do with us.

 

I'd imagine most Catholics in Edinburgh support sellik because it's the obvious team for glory-hunters to support.

[alasdairborthwick]

spot on buddy.

to many treehuggers go to tynie these days.

if hey dont like it **** off.

 

(and before anyone says anything Idont sing these songs but i dont care if anyone else does)

some folk need to grow up and get a grip.

start worrying about thereself rather than others.

 

 

and Vice Versa

 

too many bigots go to tynie these days.

if they dont like it that its not accecptable to sign those kind of songs

**** off.

[MacDonald Jardine]

and Vice Versa

 

too many bigots go to tynie these days.

if they dont like it that its not accecptable to sign those kind of songs

**** off.

 

You obviously weren't around in the 70s and 80s.

[londonjambo]

I'd imagine most Catholics in Edinburgh support Hibs because it's the obvious team for them to support.

And that goes back to their foundation, nothing to do with us.

 

With great respect, what nonsense.

 

I can just about agree with the idea that because most people start following a team because of their family alleigances, it is quite possible that a lot of Catholics follow Hibs.

 

But I cant believe that any sensible person picks their football team based on events 120 years ago and this is the point really.

 

Any sensible person picking a team to support in the last 20 years would pick Hearts over Hibs - we all know the reasons and we boast about them every day on here and laugh at the Hobos attempts to counter them (first to wear the green puh-leese).

 

So if we dont have a fairly representative support, thats because some people have been alienated by the element of our support which believes its all just "harmless banter".

 

Do you think Elias Furst would have saved this club from going under if he'd heard our support singing Edinburgh is wonderful ?

 

The irony is that our knuckle-scrapers are amongst the first to get indignant about upholding the honour of our brave war heroes (and quite rightly) but they can seemingly spit on the memory of a man who actually saved our club without even thinking about it.

 

GC

[bigandy]

You obviously weren't around in the 70s and 80s.

 

I was and just because it happened then doesnt make it right. I remember being at Tynecastle in the 80s when fans were throwing banannas at Mark Walters - should we do that too because 'it always happened'?

[Gambo]

I know this for a fact.

 

Also, how does "Edinburgh is Wonderful" fit in to this great theory that its just banter to wind up the opposition and doesnt signify that the singer actually believes in the offensive message being sent

 

How are the opposition going to be wound up by knowing that Edinburgh would be wonderful if it wasnt for those pesky Jews and *******. Right enough, I bet that has the opposition fans shaking with rage.

 

Would one of our NON-PC "Brigade" explain that to me

 

GC

 

Those people that you 'factually' know, can you ask them how they feel about supporting a team whos players sing refugee songs, and who's fans sing songs about dead people and who take flags to games of countries which have no relevance to the players on the park etc etc etc???

[andy1874hmfc]

First of all, I do not participate in sectarianism and would never treat anyone differently because of their race or religion.

But i do believe that sectarianism adds to Scottish football, especially the atmosphere. At Celtic and Hibs games I do get very annoyed when they start crossing themselves, call us orange *******s etc. but int truth that adds to my hatred for them and keeps me going to those games and caring more about the result.

I'll always hate Hibernian, but when Celtic stop singing their usual pish, I won't hate them nearly so much and as a result won't enjoy those games so much.

Hatred keeps football going imo.

 

Do you get wound up when the huns start singing sectarian songs?

[Sherlock]

With great respect, what nonsense.

 

I can just about agree with the idea that because most people start following a team because of their family alleigances, it is quite possible that a lot of Catholics follow Hibs.

 

But I cant believe that any sensible person picks their football team based on events 120 years ago and this is the point really.

 

Any sensible person picking a team to support in the last 20 years would pick Hearts over Hibs - we all know the reasons and we boast about them every day on here and laugh at the Hobos attempts to counter them (first to wear the green puh-leese).

 

Not nonsense at all.

 

My next door neighbour growing up was a catholic who went to the nearest RC school rather than the local state school.

 

He supported sellik. I used to give him stick about supporting a team that played on the other side of the country and he couldn't give me a decent reason behind his choice. I would estimate, that by going with conversations with him about this, 60% of football-supporting pupils at his school supported sellik, 20 - 30% would have supported hibs and the rest would have been Hearts fans.

[Rods]

 

When did this happen. I am sure HMFC has many Catholic fans. Maybe a few Buddhists too.

 

I was standing next to a catholic at the game. he was laughing about the hello hello song.

 

I think we should have stuck to hibees blood though.

 

I wonder if there would be a different stance on here if it was up to our knees in English blood for example.

[londonjambo]

Those people that you 'factually' know, can you ask them how they feel about supporting a team whos players sing refugee songs, and who's fans sing songs about dead people and who take flags to games of countries which have no relevance to the players on the park etc etc etc???

 

Och Gambo, come on. A "their bigots are as bad as our bigots" response isnt really a terribly well thought through argument is it and I'd be telling my 4 year old off if she had made that point.

 

In any event, none of the people I was talking about supports Hibs.

 

Now, answer my question about that song.

 

GC

[coppercrutch]

jesus. are you blind or wilfully ignorant. Can you point to anywhere I said it was ok to abuse fat people? Or where I said I was offended by it, or any other form of abuse? I'll save you the time of looking for it, because I didn't.

 

I disagree with your point of view that people can switch off and switch on being a bigot for 90 minutes a week. It doesn't work that way, which I'm pretty sure you know fine well to be honest.

 

I can guarantee you most folk singing about being 'up to their knees in fenian blood' DO have a problem with catholics in the real world. that's the bottom line.

 

Whilst you don't say "ITS OK" to abuse these people you certainly seem to think it is no big deal...

 

being bald is hard lines. there's no hatred in that form of abuse though. same wi ginger folk

 

I don't really go in for personal abuse of players, but someone is fat by their own choices

 

And you are also wring in pretty much everything you say. It is not possible for someone to 'switch on' and off being a bigot ? Well I would beg to differ.

 

 

Do people that shout abuse at people with glasses at a football game continue this outside the ground? NO!!

 

You see they can become 'spectacle haters' for 90 minutes and then switch it off. Same goes for any other sort of actions.

 

I am the blind and ignorant one.

 

Yeah sure. I do find it amsuing how all of the 'easily offended' brigade are ALWAYS the most abusive on these threads. Little bit hypocritical maybe..

[londonjambo]

Not nonsense at all.

 

My next door neighbour was a catholic who went to the nearest RC school rather than the local state school.

 

He supported sellik. I used to give him stick about supporting a team that played on the other side of the country and he couldn't give me a decent reason behind his choice. I would estimate, that by going with conversations with him about this, 60% of football-supporting pupils at his school supported sellik, 20 - 30% would have supported hibs and the rest would have been Hearts fans.

 

Not doubting you and you may well be right in which case I apologise for saying its nonsense. However, it really ought to be nonsense in this day and age in a so-called civilised society.

 

GC

[coppercrutch]

I am GENUINELY offended by certain songs that certain Hearts supporters sing. I am not offended by others but understand that others might be and that, therefore, it is unacceptable to sing them

 

GC

 

 

I find the Europe song offensive. I go to Hearts games. According to your own logic that means this song is now unacceptable.

 

Extreme example but you get the point.