Dhanda

[RustyRightPeg]

4 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

You know fine and well, he'll win the ball back, and then play it back the way 9 times out of 10. 

 

Its a million miles away from nonsense. Pointing fingers when he's as culpable for the ball getting stuck and failing to progress is entirely valid and fair criticism. 

 

So what? If it's in the first phase after winning it back and it retains possession, who cares? You'd moan if he tried a harder pass and gave it away. He'd never win.

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

So what? If it's in the first phase after winning it back and it retains possession, who cares? You'd moan if he tried a harder pass and gave it away. He'd never win.

 

It matters because we struggle breaking teams down. If we're winning the ball back and then handing the opposition a golden opportunity to regroup and get men behind the ball because we cannot get the ball forward quickly enough then that is a problem. Moving the ball quicker and getting it into forward positions faster will open up more opportunities. It will also result in losing the ball more, but 60/70% possession doesn't win games. Goals do, and we don't score a lot of them. Vast majority of our games have been cagey 1-0/2-1/2-0 games. I can't say I have seen examples of brilliant play, individual moments of genius from Shankland, but the lionshare of it has been tight. 

 

I'm not going to slate a player for trying to be positive with it. Christ, you want an example of that, Jorge Grant. Has had games where nothing comes off for him, but you've got appreciate someone trying to make the risky pass and open up a defence. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I hate criticising Beni, his wee fan club come out and you're not an allowed a nuanced view of him. Fact is, he's playing for us because there are limitations in his game which have stopped him playing at a higher level. IMO he's not conquered those limitations because he's still visably reluctant to play forward passes or take the ball on a wee run and watch him the next time the ball drops to him at the edge of the box and he could have a pop. Bottle crashes faster than a Hibs relegation party. 

[davemclaren]

Let's hope he lives up to the build up he's getting. 😎

[boag1874]

2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Yeh, agree. I’m more thinking from a Beni point of view. He’s not exactly been setting the Heather alight himself but he chooses to comment on the team needing upgraded before he’ll stay. Wouldn’t trouble me that much if he left in all honesty. He’s a good player but he contributes next to nothing in an attacking sense and I reckon a bit of a midfield re jig, without him in it, and we’d be far more dangerous and cohesive going forward without losing too much on the defensive midfield side. Transition - there’s a buzz word - and he (and we in general) isn’t/arent very good at it

Nah can't agree with that at all. If Beni goes we'll need another player in his mould to replace him. Hof is a more box to box player imo and Cammy doesn't have the positional discipline to hold a deeper position (plus I prefer when he presses high up anyway, that's when he's at his best).

 

It's not a sexy position but don't underestimate the value in having a holding mid who's defensively sound and keeps it neat & tidy even against the crap teams. Beni's obviously not Rodri or Fabinho or Cassemiro level but at our level he's very very good even after a shaky start and he's a huge part of the reason we've picked up as many wins as we have. If we find a player that can do what Beni does to his standard plus regularly chip in with defence splitting through balls and goals then we'll have played an absolute blinder.

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

Nah can't agree with that at all. If Beni goes we'll need another player in his mould to replace him. Hof is a more box to box player imo and Cammy doesn't have the positional discipline to hold a deeper position (plus I prefer when he presses high up anyway, that's when he's at his best).

 

It's not a sexy position but don't underestimate the value in having a holding mid who's defensively sound and keeps it neat & tidy even against the crap teams. Beni's obviously not Rodri or Fabinho or Cassemiro level but at our level he's very very good even after a shaky start and he's a huge part of the reason we've picked up as many wins as we have. If we find a player that can do what Beni does to his standard plus regularly chip in with defence splitting through balls and goals then we'll have played an absolute blinder.

 

We already do - Tait. 

 

Would like Beni for another year, but if you don't give the youngsters a chance to succeed, then we'll never know! I'm keen to see what Tait can do  He's impressed in his outings so far!!

[RustyRightPeg]

14 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

It matters because we struggle breaking teams down. If we're winning the ball back and then handing the opposition a golden opportunity to regroup and get men behind the ball because we cannot get the ball forward quickly enough then that is a problem. Moving the ball quicker and getting it into forward positions faster will open up more opportunities. It will also result in losing the ball more, but 60/70% possession doesn't win games. Goals do, and we don't score a lot of them. Vast majority of our games have been cagey 1-0/2-1/2-0 games. I can't say I have seen examples of brilliant play, individual moments of genius from Shankland, but the lionshare of it has been tight. 

 

I'm not going to slate a player for trying to be positive with it. Christ, you want an example of that, Jorge Grant. Has had games where nothing comes off for him, but you've got appreciate someone trying to make the risky pass and open up a defence. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I hate criticising Beni, his wee fan club come out and you're not an allowed a nuanced view of him. Fact is, he's playing for us because there are limitations in his game which have stopped him playing at a higher level. IMO he's not conquered those limitations because he's still visably reluctant to play forward passes or take the ball on a wee run and watch him the next time the ball drops to him at the edge of the box and he could have a pop. Bottle crashes faster than a Hibs relegation party. 

 

I'm not part of a Beni fan club, I just think it's a pile of shite you saying he carries the can for our attacking frailties 🤣 

 

The guy plays on an island in front of our back 4 most games and has to start almost every move we make whilst under pressure from opposing attackers and midfielders. His role is invaluable. Put any other of our central midfielders in that role and they struggle. What else do you want him to do? 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

36 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

You know fine and well, he'll win the ball back, and then play it back the way 9 times out of 10. 

 

Its a million miles away from nonsense. Pointing fingers when he's as culpable for the ball getting stuck and failing to progress is entirely valid and fair criticism. 

 

I was reading the Hearts Standard article on the fantastic team goal that Devlin finished last week. It started with Beni winning the ball back and finding Kent. Because he played it back to Kent, Kent was able to find Devlin (who was screened from Beni) who then charged into space, found Cochrane, who played out to and underlapped McKay, who chipped to Shankland, who flicked on Cochrane, who found Dev.

 

It was beautiful team football of the highest order and it started with a Beni back pass.

 

If they've packed 10 men well behind the ball it's not as effective but playing it back to a fullback who has a view of the pitch is often a very good play after winning it back. If he plays it back to a fullback who then sits on it for 10 seconds, not so much, but Saturday was a perfect example of it working as planned.

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

 

I'm not part of a Beni fan club, I just think it's a pile of shite you saying he carries the can for our attacking frailties 🤣 

 

The guy plays on an island in front of our back 4 most games and has to start almost every move we make whilst under pressure from opposing attackers and midfielders. His role is invaluable. Put any other of our central midfielders in that role and they struggle. What else do you want him to do? 

 

Why? Ball comes to him and 90% of the time he fails to progress it. Him then making some backhanded jibe about the incoming players being good enough to make him maybe possibly rethink his exit is rich. Its not wholly or mostly his responsibility to contribute to attacks - I get that, but he also is rarely giving the ball to attack minded players so they can do something with it. Maybe if he could find attackers more often, we'd have more opportunities to score goals. 

 

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

I was reading the Hearts Standard article on the fantastic team goal that Devlin finished last week. It started with Beni winning the ball back and finding Kent. Because he played it back to Kent, Kent was able to find Devlin (who was screened from Beni) who then charged into space, found Cochrane, who played out to and underlapped McKay, who chipped to Shankland, who flicked on Cochrane, who found Dev.

 

It was beautiful team football of the highest order and it started with a Beni back pass.

 

If they've packed 10 men well behind the ball it's not as effective but playing it back to a fullback who has a view of the pitch is often a very good play after winning it back. If he plays it back to a fullback who then sits on it for 10 seconds, not so much, but Saturday was a perfect example of it working as planned.

 

So Kent played a long ball?  

 

Look, I get the point you're making, but how many opportunities have been lost because Beni holds onto the long ball choking on the safest pass presenting itself? A lot. 

[RustyRightPeg]

Just now, OTT said:

 

Why? Ball comes to him and 90% of the time he fails to progress it. Him then making some backhanded jibe about the incoming players being good enough to make him maybe possibly rethink his exit is rich. Its not wholly or mostly his responsibility to contribute to attacks - I get that, but he also is rarely giving the ball to attack minded players so they can do something with it. Maybe if he could find attackers more often, we'd have more opportunities to score goals. 

 

 

Do you sit in section X? You must be the guy that bursts blood vessels over him every week. It's utterly bizarre.  

[HopeDiouf]

Just now, OTT said:

 

Why? Ball comes to him and 90% of the time he fails to progress it. Him then making some backhanded jibe about the incoming players being good enough to make him maybe possibly rethink his exit is rich. Its not wholly or mostly his responsibility to contribute to attacks - I get that, but he also is rarely giving the ball to attack minded players so they can do something with it. Maybe if he could find attackers more often, we'd have more opportunities to score goals. 

 

Agreed. If he doesn't wanna be here, the door is right there.  Hearts have gotten over the loss of much better players than Beni.

[OTT]

Just now, RustyRightPeg said:

 

Do you sit in section X? You must be the guy that bursts blood vessels over him every week. It's utterly bizarre.  

 

Look, if all you want to do is talk about only the best attributes of our players, it will be a pretty boring chat. As I've said, I'm trying to take a nuanced view on him. He's an excellent ball winner, but if we want to look at why our attacking play struggles to break teams down, having a midfielder that is resistant to playing forward balls is a problem and I think its disingenuous to try and argue otherwise. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

So Kent played a long ball?  

 

Look, I get the point you're making, but how many opportunities have been lost because Beni holds onto the long ball choking on the safest pass presenting itself? A lot. 

 

Eh? No, he didn't, did I imply that? It was a quick triangle to Dev who did the work of advancing the ball.

 

I don't think he's waiting for a safe pass when he holds the ball. He's trying to draw the defender to himself to open up the field behind them. The fault to me often lies in either the other mid players not finding the space behind them or the fullbacks who receive the back pass not playing into that space.

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

Eh? No, he didn't, did I imply that? It was a quick triangle to Dev who did the work of advancing the ball.

 

I don't think he's waiting for a safe pass when he holds the ball. He's trying to draw the defender to himself to open up the field behind them. The fault to me often lies in either the other mid players not finding the space behind them or the fullbacks who receive the back pass not playing into that space.

 

All valid! I think as the season has went on, Naismiths ideas are starting to see more implementation on the field. I'm not arguing that Beni is solely at fault, I'm just trying to make the point that he's not a player that you see naturally wanting to play forward balls and he's indirectly criticising the other attacking players with what he's inferring, whilst not really taking any account of his own limitations. If he was as dynamic as Djoum was, I'm sure we'd have saw a few more goals from his play. 

 

It just wrangles me that people struggle with the idea that a good player can have bad parts to his game. If Beni wants to play at a higher level, then he could take a leaf out of Devlins book and start really working on his forward play, because he does have the skills in his locker, his wee run against Hibs that caused Josh Campbell to injury himself (lol) or his forward pass to Shanks against Motherwell. He has the ball control and range of passing to do more in possession IMO. 

 

Edit: Kent comment was tongue in cheek btw

Edited April 16 by OTT

[boag1874]

33 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

We already do - Tait. 

 

Would like Beni for another year, but if you don't give the youngsters a chance to succeed, then we'll never know! I'm keen to see what Tait can do  He's impressed in his outings so far!!

Risky as **** to go into next season hanging our hopes on a teenager with only one start to his name imo
 

Tait is promising but we also don’t want to be chucking him in too soon as our first pick DM, time is very much on his side and I think our approach with him so far has been absolutely bang on giving him minutes regularly without the added pressure of being expected to deliver week in week out both domestically and probably in the conference groups. Next season I’d like to see us continue to use him as a squad player with a few more starts sprinkled in here & there particularly on those Sunday fixtures when we’ve got Europe to contend with, but we’ll still need a proven quality defensive mid to give us the best chance of success.

[OTT]

10 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

Risky as **** to go into next season hanging our hopes on a teenager with only one start to his name imo
 

Tait is promising but we also don’t want to be chucking him in too soon as our first pick DM, time is very much on his side and I think our approach with him so far has been absolutely bang on giving him minutes regularly without the added pressure of being expected to deliver week in week out both domestically and probably in the conference groups. Next season I’d like to see us continue to use him as a squad player with a few more starts sprinkled in here & there particularly on those Sunday fixtures when we’ve got Europe to contend with, but we’ll still need a proven quality defensive mid to give us the best chance of success.

 

We have Devlin, Hoff & have apprently signed Phillips from St Johnstone on a precontract, so its a little less dramatic than that  

 

But I do take your point, the level we're playing at/aspiring to, we cannot expect an 18/19 year old to be playing every week.