HCA

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, busbyfth said:

potentially yes, youre correct - but as its open to an institution or individual interpreting the phrases, how can it be enforced fairly "throughout the land" ? Starting this Sunday it will prove that it cant be..... (Fairly !!) ..........and could potentially be used in court as a "why are you enforcing this on my client when it was ignored by the police/authorities on 7/4/24 ?" Talk about a can of worms 

It’s a barrel of worms 🐛 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, The Mercer Takeover said:

You simply haven't read it have you.

 

There are multiple issues highlighted by leading KC's, including the SNP's Joanna Cherry. 

 

Hate crime is about someone's perception of an incident, whether it is a crime or not. Incidents are logged by McPlod, with your details on them and not necessarily the person/people who complained either. 

 

If someone doesn't like you or what you stand for, they can anonymously log a hate crime against you online, for pretty much anything. 

 

Numerous jobs, promotions actually vet police records before appointment, and now your name could appear even without you knowing anything about it.

 

It is rife for abuse by groups with a specific agenda. Trans groups, football groups, religious groups they can say whatever they like.

 

Don't forget, if McPlod come calling on your door, thay can confiscate your phone or other IT equipment while they investigate someone's else's thought crime. Imagine being without your phone for general day to day use, and even banking etc. Your will undoubtedly be innocent, don't forget.

 

According to KC's, this law is radically different to the rest of the UK and contradicts UK and EU law.

 

It is your duty to protect democracy, no matter how much it allows someone to offend you.

 

The specific shambles is here below, suggest you read it. The reasons why it is an affront to democracy are numerous and you can look up yourself.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/section/1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This . 

[Sooks]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yep . A bad law has problems being enforced . This is a clumsy law . 

You come across as really bigoted towards people who feel that they are a different gender or sex to that which they were born in to at the time 

 

I have read some really interesting scientific papers and presentations from scientists who believe that a persons sex is determined before and importantly separately from the development of the physiological and anatomical processes that lead to the development of binary genitalia 

[ToadKiller Dog]

Just now, Sooks said:

I said when is sex determined 

Well if we look at the Christian right that call out biology ,then the jesus they worship must have been born female ,given Mary was a virgin before ,during and after his birth ,so no y chromosome, then transformed into male form by God. 

 

Same can be said of Eve she was created from Adams rib so she would have had a male genetic code ,so God (who can be classed as non binary) had transform Eve into a female .

Go God the first gender non conformist .

[Hmfc1965]

1 hour ago, The Mercer Takeover said:

You have missed the point.

 

If someone perceives hate, no matter how spurious, police have to act and log the details of it. If police deem it not offensive, the details are still logged, and your name remains there.

 

You could lose your job over having a police file for hate. If two people are going for a new job and one has a police hate file entry, even if no crime had been committed, who do you honestly think will get the job in a woke society

 

In football terms in Scotland this law is just farcical and open to abuse.

Since when did potential employers have the right to see police files?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

We already have laws that protect people from actual hate though. If I hate someone so much that I destroy their property, threaten them or physically harm them, I'll be getting a visit from the plod. 

 

We do not need laws that infringe on what essentially is freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

 

It doesn't matter how abhorrent some peoples views are or whether or not you agree with them. If that's what they believe then laws aren't going to change that.

 

How did they learn their prejudice is the key to irradiating those sorts of beliefs but has to be done through education and it needs to be done without bias. That is what freedom of thought is about.

 

 There's norms within society of what we believe to be "acceptable" but there's actually no wrong answer if you think of it in a macro sense. Humans are free the think and express themselves. 

 

And if we are talking about Sectarianism, then that combines a whole plethora of other shit, - history, nationality, religion, culture and traditions. It's not just a bunch of offensive words or songs.

It's an entire belief system built built over centuries which encapsulates all parts of some people's identity and it is integrated deeply within parts of the UK.  

 

But....What's the next step?  

We start censoring tradition, culture,  history, language so these people don't have access to information to broaden their prejudices in the first place? 

 

It's opening Pandora's box here. It's a slippery slope to further censorship on books, language, philosophy, religion, culture, humour. It's really, really unacceptable. It's not forward thinking and doesn't actually address the issue whatsoever. 

 

Education, integration and assimilation are the only way to create a fairer more equal society otherwise people will always hold those beliefs, all this legislation is saying is you're not allowed to openly express them. 

Bravo 🙌 

[westbow]

1 minute ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

It is.

It's an age old argument used to help spread hate, bile and lies.

 

Thankfully in this country the boundary was drawn at open racism,  bigotry is the next bog one for Scotland.

 

Freedom of expression and debate is different from being allowed to say what you want, or we'd all be allowed to go around calling folk black *******s , and we're not.

Quite rightly imo.

 

 

Freedom of speech has always been dictated by the sensibilities of the time. We have never had complete freedom of speech. Never will have. Freedom of speech is exactly the same as expression and debate is it not? 

[Sooks]

4 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

Well if we look at the Christian right that call out biology ,then the jesus they worship must have been born female ,given Mary was a virgin before ,during and after his birth ,so no y chromosome, then transformed into male form by God. 

 

Same can be said of Eve she was created from Adams rib so she would have had a male genetic code ,so God (who can be classed as non binary) had transform Eve into a female .

Go God the first gender non conformist .

With creationism being an absolute stone cold proven myth , I am just going to disregard all of their shite with complete confidence . Roll on the Christian peer review system  

 

 

 

Edited April 2 by Sooks

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You come across as really bigoted towards people who feel that they are a different gender or sex to that which they were born in to at the time 

 

I have read some really interesting scientific papers and presentations from scientists who believe that a persons sex is determined before and importantly separately from the development of the physiological and anatomical processes that lead to the development of binary genitalia 

In offended . You called me a bigot . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You come across as really bigoted towards people who feel that they are a different gender or sex to that which they were born in to at the time 

 

I have read some really interesting scientific papers and presentations from scientists who believe that a persons sex is determined before and importantly separately from the development of the physiological and anatomical processes that lead to the development of binary genitalia 

 

That posting is a grade bollocks . 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

That posting is a grade bollocks . 

Really ? How so . You love to poke fun at trans people and make out they are impossible by natures laws or biology or whatever , and I find it really insulting and ignorant 

[May98]

3 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

Totally agree. It was just a joke about Rangers and Celtic hating each other.

Exactly “shoes off if you hate hibees” all arrested for hate crimes now?  If you hate the ****ing Celtic clap your hands?  

[XB52]

24 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Ha Ha, You obviously don't head your own advice. Berxit was democratic as the MAJORITY Voted FOR it. Just because Scotland and Ireland ( North )didn't want it is tough sh!t.  The MINORITY ( English voters will always out number the rest of the UK ) didn't really have a chance. Brexit was democratic whether you wanted it or not.

So you will be all for the HCA then as it was voted through by the vast majority

[Cade]

THUR MAKIN IT ILLEGAL TAE BE A WHITE MAN LIKESAY

 

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

In offended . You called me a bigot . 

Why you ridicule trans people and make a fool of them for what they feel is their true self and identity 

[doctor jambo]

16 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I said when is sex determined 

sex is observed and recorded

gender is performative ( according to Judith Butler)

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Really ? How so . You love to poke fun at trans people and make out they are impossible by natures laws or biology or whatever , and I find it really insulting and ignorant 

You’ll to back up posts were I’ve “ poked fun “ at trans people . Go for it . But hey it’s easy to say isn’t it . 

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Really ? How so . You love to poke fun at trans people and make out they are impossible by natures laws or biology or whatever , and I find it really insulting and ignorant 

transgender is real, they exist, and that is fine.

society needs to move with that so they feel more comfortable, this it true

they are not impossible, they change gender.

they do not change sex

 

[XB52]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

THUR MAKIN IT ILLEGAL TAE BE A WHITE MAN LIKESAY

 

That is basically what the bigots and racists are arguing. If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Why you ridicule trans people and make a fool of them for what they feel is their true self and identity 

Again tag me on any postings . I’m sure the mods will appreciate it . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh and here we go let’s go wildly off the topic by targeting someone about their supposed views about a group of people instead of discuss the very real concerns about this bill . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Why you ridicule trans people and make a fool of them for what they feel is their true self and identity 

Sex is immutable .

 

Gender is made up stereotypical nonsense . 
 

 

 

[XB52]

1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

transgender is real, they exist, and that is fine.

society needs to move with that so they feel more comfortable, this it true

they are not impossible, they change gender.

they do not change sex

 

Bloody hell, a post from the 'doctor' that I agree with. Maybe have a word with the transphobic bigots on here who don't agree with you 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Why you ridicule trans people and make a fool of them for what they feel is their true self and identity 

Come on I’m waiting. 

[Des Lynam]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

If the SNP haters on here and the transphobic bigots like Cherry and Rowling are against it then it's pretty certain it's a good law

 

 

 

Have you ever taken the time to read the arguments put forward by Cherry and Rowling? 

 

You remind me of a MAGA voter when it comes to any criticism of the SNP. 

[Bazzas right boot]

19 minutes ago, westbow said:

Freedom of speech has always been dictated by the sensibilities of the time. We have never had complete freedom of speech. Never will have. Freedom of speech is exactly the same as expression and debate is it not? 

 

 

No.

 

In this country you can debate anything. 

 

You can debate equality,  race  etc but you can't then go all kkk and openly hate Black folk or spout hate in the street, or sing about black folk at the football.

Hopefully that will be extended to bigotry and sectarianism.  90% of folk will adjust to not singing horrible songs, most Hearts fans already  have.  The 10% or so will always exist, the gammon, the haters, the racists,  etc but in general most folk will adjust or already have adjusted to go to a football game without being racist in this country,  I think we can overcome the horrible ***** that drive bigotry,  just like we overcame most racists at football. 

It did take laws tho.

It also taken time and is ongoing. 

 

Hearts are a great example of this, 40 years ago -Walters at Tynecastle,  through to Billy boys, fenian blood, hibees r  gay and look at us now.

Great song book, very little bigotry or racism, record average crowds.

 

 

 

Russia,  or Putin for example has removed all freedom of debate and expression by controlling all media, imprisonment of folk that disagree with him or simply killing them.

 

That's the big difference. 

 

 

Edited April 2 by Bazzas right boot

[Pasquale for King]

35 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

sex is determined by biology

gender is determined by self perception

the confusion is generated by conflating the two

sex and gender are entirely different

you could have single sex spaces, and multi gender spaces

this would be really easy- female facilities would be single sex

male spaces could become multi gender- we men dont really need our own spaces or events

What about Hermaphrodites? Where do they fit in to sex being determined by biology?

Medical breakthroughs have made it possible for people to change sex/gender, why cant folk accept that, not saying you dont. 

Can’t argue with multi gender spaces though, Im not sure women are safe anywhere and our sex/gender is the cause of that. 

Edited April 2 by Pasquale for King

[JudyJudyJudy]

Anyway good discussion about the wider reprecussions of this act . In particular regarding football , which I pointed out a while back . And it’s not just the “ ugly sisters “ which may get into shit but look to some of our own , Albeit monitory of supporters and their behaviours . Any law has to be applied fairly and equally in any democratic society . If it isn’t it needs binned . This act needs binned , there is alleady decent legislation deal with hate . I await the weekend events , as hopefully it is the final nail in the coffin . JK nailed the first one yesterday , 

 

This legislation was used by the Govt and other groups to deliberately silence women and supporters of gender ideology . It had spectacularly back fired and galvanised the very groups it hoped to silence .  

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Come on I’m waiting. 

What an absolute mess you are . You are completely incapable of self reflection or thinking about how your publicly stated opinions may hurt or offend others . You have been completely offensive to the trans community on many occasions , but the minute anyone questions you you have a big teary tantrum

 

I I have found a great many of your posts on such subjects extremely offensive previously but I did not report you . If you are so completely incapable of self reflection , then in future I suppose I will just report you or something 

From previous experience of your rightwing bigotry , I doubt you are much of a reader or someone who is inclined to digest scientific material , but just in case , here you go

 

https://srf-reproduction.org/events/sex-in-three-cities-events/

[Des Lynam]

18 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Really ? How so . You love to poke fun at trans people and make out they are impossible by natures laws or biology or whatever , and I find it really insulting and ignorant 

 

In fairness you and Tosh indulged in lazy homophobia further up the thread. 

[Ulysses]

49 minutes ago, Threedoorsdown said:

Thank you.

 

Interest rates and borrowing have increased tremendously since covid. I’d speculate the true figure is probably in the middle of the 30% and the 10% of three years ago. 
 

I don’t think people realise how ****ed we are. 

 

 

In fairness, that Fitch calculation is for 2023, not 2021, and interest rates in 2024 are not expected to be higher than 2023.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Sooks said:

What an absolute mess you are . You are completely incapable of self reflection or thinking about how your publicly stated opinions may hurt or offend others . You have been completely offensive to the trans community on many occasions , but the minute anyone questions you you have a big teary tantrum

 

I I have found a great many of your posts on such subjects extremely offensive previously but I did not report you . If you are so completely incapable of self reflection , then in future I suppose I will just report you or something 

From previous experience of your rightwing bigotry , I doubt you are much of a reader or someone who is inclined to digest scientific material , but just in case , here you go

 

https://srf-reproduction.org/events/sex-in-three-cities-events/

No one is having a “ teary tantrum” I’m asking you to alert me to those postings which you claim have “ offended “ you and “ hurt “ you and others . It’s a reasonable request . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

In fairness you and Tosh indulged in lazy homophobia further up the thread. 

Yes and don’t think I didn’t notice that . 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

In fairness you and Tosh indulged in lazy homophobia further up the thread. 

No , I expanded on his trope about prison rape which is often materialised in fiction as occurring when an inmate “ drops the soap “ . It is such an age old tired bit of nonsense . I attempted to veer it off that particular path by making out weegies are soap dodgers instead 

[dannymack]

4 hours ago, Sooks said:

What has changed , is the rise of the neo fascist right and its ever creeping hold on western governments . When you have supposedly serious politicians making public statements about immigrants and the threat that they pose , like some sort of third reich anti minority propaganda campaign , then you are inevitably going to get a reaction from people who are not fascist scum . Poor choice of “ woke “ on your part there imo . Read up on where that term originates from . Not exactly easily offended people shall we say . Down right ****ing persecuted and dehumanised through a system of modern apartheid 

 

Opinions, we are all entitled to them and of course it doesn't make those opinions we have right. 

 

What I find disturbing is those horrible, disgusting left wingers who constantly throw the "card" at folk who have a direct opposite opinion to them. 

 

Left wing scum, right wing scum, political scum ! 

 

 

[Sooks]

Just now, dannymack said:

 

Opinions, we are all entitled to them and of course it doesn't make those opinions we have right. 

 

What I find disturbing is those horrible, disgusting left wingers who constantly throw the "card" at folk who have a direct opposite opinion to them. 

 

Left wing scum, right wing scum, political scum ! 

 

 

which card

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

This is maybe the reason why weegies are not scared of flouting these laws . They know that they do not need to worry about dropping the soap if they do get sent down 

That’s offensive 

[Sooks]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No one is having a “ teary tantrum” I’m asking you to alert me to those postings which you claim have “ offended “ you and “ hurt “ you and others . It’s a reasonable request . 

They were from the last time I bothered my arse to spend any time in the Shed on here . I only recently started looking in again . You were posting some seriously offensive anti trans stuff , and my opinion was that it was ignorant , offensive and pathetic . I never reported you at the time , and it would require a serious bit of searching to find the posts in question sadly

 

 

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

That’s offensive 

How so ? Who is it offensive too ? Prison rapists ? If so then I do not really want to apologise to them …….. are you trying to make out my reply was homophobic ? It was not 

[Sooks]

5 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Exactly. It’s funny watching these self-righteous clowns berate people for the same behaviour they exhibit. 

What behaviour is that Jimmy 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, dannymack said:

 

Opinions, we are all entitled to them and of course it doesn't make those opinions we have right. 

 

What I find disturbing is those horrible, disgusting left wingers who constantly throw the "card" at folk who have a direct opposite opinion to them. 

 

Left wing scum, right wing scum, political scum ! 

 

 

Well said mate 

[May one-six]

1 hour ago, The Mercer Takeover said:

You have missed the point.

 

If someone perceives hate, no matter how spurious, police have to act and log the details of it. If police deem it not offensive, the details are still logged, and your name remains there.

 

You could lose your job over having a police file for hate. If two people are going for a new job and one has a police hate file entry, even if no crime had been committed, who do you honestly think will get the job in a woke society

 

In football terms in Scotland this law is just farcical and open to abuse.

So, JK Rowling is not guilty of a hate crime and, as per the former head of the Scottish Police Federation, the listing of hate incidents is not new and has nothing to do with this Act. You can relax.

[BlueRiver]

You can think something is poorly legislated without being a racist, sectarian bigot, sexist, transphobe or general . 

 

A lot of folk on this thread seem to equate not supporting particular pieces of legislation with an agenda beyond that. It happened on the Gender Recognition Bill discussions as well. 

 

[westbow]

23 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

No.

 

In this country you can debate anything. 

 

You can debate equality,  race  etc but you can't then go all kkk and openly hate Black folk or spout hate in the street, or sing about black folk at the football.

Hopefully that will be extended to bigotry and sectarianism.  90% of folk will adjust to not singing horrible songs, most Hearts fans already  have.  The 10% or so will always exist, the gammon, the haters, the racists,  etc but in general most folk will adjust or already have adjusted to go to a football game without being racist in this country,  I think we can overcome the horrible ***** that drive bigotry,  just like we overcame most racists at football. 

It did take laws tho.

It also taken time and is ongoing. 

 

Hearts are a great example of this, 40 years ago -Walters at Tynecastle,  through to Billy boys, fenian blood, hibees r  gay and look at us now.

Great song book, very little bigotry or racism, record average crowds.

 

 

 

Russia,  or Putin for example has removed all freedom of debate and expression by controlling all media, imprisonment of folk that disagree with him or simply killing them.

 

That's the big difference. 

 

 

We are getting drawn into semantics here but it means the same thing.

 

What is not helpful is when people start with the “bigot” or “racism” card. You will get these people but then again strange bedfellows is common in free speech.

 

Perfectly liberal people (or leftist and rightist for that matter) will disagree with suppressing free speech- not just extremists.

[BlueRiver]

3 hours ago, The Mercer Takeover said:

He's simply stating that the hate crime bill is an SNP affront to democracy, and prepared to defy it.

 

Leading KC's have highlighted this omnishambles, which they suggest breaches UK and EU law.

 

It's your duty to preserve democracy.

 

Leading legal figures did the same with the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act yet it doesn't stop the usual crowd on this board thinking they know best and acting like they're better than anyone with a different viewpoint. 

[Polonia Gorgie]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

You can think something is poorly legislated without being a racist, sectarian bigot, sexist, transphobe or general . 

 

A lot of folk on this thread seem to equate not supporting particular pieces of legislation with an agenda beyond that. It happened on the Gender Recognition Bill discussions as well. 

 

This new hate bill could easily become misinterpreted 

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, May one-six said:

So, JK Rowling is not guilty of a hate crime and, as per the former head of the Scottish Police Federation, the listing of hate incidents is not new and has nothing to do with this Act. You can relax.

 

What's the legislation that requires the cops to list you as having a "hate incident" on your record even if you haven't done anything?  You've explained that it's not this 2021 Act, and @Hmfc1965 put me right on that earlier in the thread.  So which law is it?

[Sooks]

10 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Intolerance, narrow-mindedness and disrespect, Sookie. 

Except those are not in any of my replies  , Jimmy

[BlueRiver]

Just now, Polonia Gorgie said:

This new hate bill could easily become misinterpreted 

 

Correct. That won't stop folk charging in to label you some kind of bigot on here if you express misgivings over aspects of it. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, westbow said:

We are getting drawn into semantics here but it means the same thing.

 

What is not helpful is when people start with the “bigot” or “racism” card. You will get these people but then again strange bedfellows is common in free speech.

 

Perfectly liberal people (or leftist and rightist for that matter) will disagree with suppressing free speech- not just extremists.

Maybe, but I'm for anything that tries to remove this cancer from our society

 

 

1 minute ago, Polonia Gorgie said:

This new hate bill could easily become misinterpreted 

 

I hate thus bill  already...