Excess Deaths

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

There's a reuters article on the excess deaths .

Easy to find.

 

 

Doesn't blame the jags.

Points to other factors but its still 44%.

On a wider note about trustworthiness. 

Don't question medical science is that really logical given the examples ?

 

 

I think a couple of the posters who are not foil-hatters have said it’s ok to question the experts it’s just when and how you do it that’s important which seems fair enough

 

at least excess deaths are starting to see the light of day beyond the right-wing foil hat grifter sites which is important as if the trend continues (I think some might be showing some signs of improvement which hopefully will prove to be a fundamental change rather than random variation) then that along with increased morbidity the nhs could really be creaking over the coming years with potentially more pandemics on the way too 🙀

 

ive watched a few of the Campbell videos and while he does do a not very subtle nudge-nudge ‘it’s the vaccines’ type spiel at times in general he just seems to be pushing for more open discussion on things including excess deaths which he’s been banging on about for a while

 

im obviously not as informed as @Gizmo on him as I haven’t seen him make many claims at all far less ones he’s been debunked on but maybe his grift has become marginally more sophisticated in that he’s removed his tin foil hat from the videos and rather than making outlandish claims he’s now not very subtly steering people towards his outlandish claims under the cover of asking for discussion on a subject matter

 

im surprised there are any excess deaths at all given he’s been highlighting them for a while (must be broken clock and all that)

 

 

 

 

[Gizmo]

39 minutes ago, Ked said:

Medicine and our health is no doubt much much better.

 

Well for the top 20 % of the world populace.

And of that 20% the top 3% after that the top 7-10% which includes us.

And yet Glasgow has or had a poorer life expectancy than places if war.

Every decade has seen for the past 80 years abomination from the medical establushments /pharma.

 

From 30s Germany and the medical profession embrace of Nazi doctrine

Soviet union

USA.

All promoted violence and the latter facilitated greed for medicines which were harmful.

 

I post (and my op invited comment) about excess death and I fekt up as I do a lot.

But still the onslaught to dusmiss any questioning is funny .

Especially the notion that to not trust is you tube shite.

 

I think the recent drop in life expectancy is linked to over a decade of government austerity policies. Presumably, the erosion of the NHS and the pandemic have not helped, though I am not sure if there is enough data yet to calculate those aspects. 

Glasgow has long suffered from lower life expectancy and there have been a lot of studies on this. Poverty, pollution, hard men working punishing heavy industrial jobs, high crime, alcoholism, smoking, diet, drugs and gangs were all agreed to be contributing factors. But even when that is taken into account in the data and by comparison to other de-industrialised cities like Liverpool & Manchester, the underlying life expectancy is still lower - so perhaps there is more to play and it's incredibly difficult to tackle. 

One good article here: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jun/10/glasgow-effect-die-young-high-risk-premature-death It tries but does not manage to avoid citing basically "lack of hope" as a factor but it does explore the subject matter in a bit of depth. 

Edited January 9 by Gizmo

[Gizmo]

3 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

I think a couple of the posters who are not foil-hatters have said it’s ok to question the experts it’s just when and how you do it that’s important which seems fair enough

 

at least excess deaths are starting to see the light of day beyond the right-wing foil hat grifter sites which is important as if the trend continues (I think some might be showing some signs of improvement which hopefully will prove to be a fundamental change rather than random variation) then that along with increased morbidity the nhs could really be creaking over the coming years with potentially more pandemics on the way too 🙀

 

ive watched a few of the Campbell videos and while he does do a not very subtle nudge-nudge ‘it’s the vaccines’ type spiel at times in general he just seems to be pushing for more open discussion on things including excess deaths which he’s been banging on about for a while

 

im obviously not as informed as @Gizmo on him as I haven’t seen him make many claims at all far less ones he’s been debunked on but maybe his grift has become marginally more sophisticated in that he’s removed his tin foil hat from the videos and rather than making outlandish claims he’s now not very subtly steering people towards his outlandish claims under the cover of asking for discussion on a subject matter

 

im surprised there are any excess deaths at all given he’s been highlighting them for a while (must be broken clock and all that)

 

 

 

 

Snarky. 😆

Only a Google away: https://healthfeedback.org/authors/john-campbell/

However, as I watched his more reasoned videos at the start of the pandemic, I did spot the direction he was going in and stopped watching. I'm sure you'd agree it is important to get a variety of sources of information.  I watch and disseminate the videos shared and the articles cited, yes even the ones shared by the Bacofoil shareholders. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

11 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Most amusing, I'm not sure when I got so under your skin that you have gone to the bother of dredging up and misconstruing an old post. 

But let's make this crystal clear. If someone decides to ignore science and medical advice for political or grifting gain, or even truly holds these silly ideas and dies as a result, that is a personal tragedy for the person concerned.

However, the minute they share misinformation and spread the potential for harm to their listener/viewer base, then it is not entirely unreasonable to consider that taking themselves out of the equation by their actions may have saved others from a similar fate. 

Once you've stopped clutching your pearls you might even spot the macabre irony in that. 

 

why do you assume you got under my skin when all I do is recount what happened in the not too distant past which took absolutely no effort or dredging whatsoever - yup it’s the internet way - angry / triggered / under skin / u ok hun etc etc

 

that’s what you posted at the time so you are consistent the only thing missing is the salacious ‘a leopard ate my face is where it’s at’

 

anyway I don’t disagree if these people were putting others at risk that was a very bad thing either through being misguided or worse financial gain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I think the recent drop in life expectancy is linked to over a decade of government austerity policies. Presumably, the erosion of the NHS and the pandemic have not helped, though I am not sure if there is enough data yet to calculate those aspects. 

Glasgow has long suffered from lower life expectancy and there have been a lot of studies on this. Poverty, pollution, hard men working punishing heavy industrial jobs, high crime, alcoholism, smoking, diet, drugs and gangs were all agreed to be contributing factors. But even when that is taken into account in the data and by comparison to other de-industrialised cities like Liverpool & Manchester, the underlying life expectancy is still lower - so perhaps there is more to play and it's incredibly difficult to tackle. 

One good article here: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jun/10/glasgow-effect-die-young-high-risk-premature-death It tries but does not manage to avoid citing basically "lack of hope" as a factor but it does explore the subject matter in a bit of depth. 

 

 

I'm not arguing with any of that, but just a reminder that Ireland has followed a very different path to the UK in terms of austerity policies since 2015 or so, and our life expectancy figures were climbing - but we still got a bump in excess deaths in 2022.  So it is worth following up on in case there is something to be learned (in the case of a once-off) or something to be done (in the case of a longer trend).

[Ked]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Lads, just save this and post it in future - it'll save y'all having to make stuff up.

 

 

I know you horrible git.

 

To avoid any doubt you and others put me to bed.

And as I've said not for the first time I've been given a lesson.

[Unknown user]

[Gizmo]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

 

I'm not arguing with any of that, but just a reminder that Ireland has followed a very different path to the UK in terms of austerity policies since 2015 or so, and our life expectancy figures were climbing - but we still got a bump in excess deaths in 2022.  So it is worth following up on in case there is something to be learned (in the case of a once-off) or something to be done (in the case of a longer trend).

You'd have encountered similar de-industrialisation in the bigger cities, presumably? I can't say I would know the poverty levels relative to Scotland, in say Dublin or Cork (or even Belfast, to bring your neighbours into the picture).  

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I think the recent drop in life expectancy is linked to over a decade of government austerity policies. Presumably, the erosion of the NHS and the pandemic have not helped, though I am not sure if there is enough data yet to calculate those aspects. 

Glasgow has long suffered from lower life expectancy and there have been a lot of studies on this. Poverty, pollution, hard men working punishing heavy industrial jobs, high crime, alcoholism, smoking, diet, drugs and gangs were all agreed to be contributing factors. But even when that is taken into account in the data and by comparison to other de-industrialised cities like Liverpool & Manchester, the underlying life expectancy is still lower - so perhaps there is more to play and it's incredibly difficult to tackle. 

One good article here: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jun/10/glasgow-effect-die-young-high-risk-premature-death It tries but does not manage to avoid citing basically "lack of hope" as a factor but it does explore the subject matter in a bit of depth. 

I think I corrected myself and other topics I've raised the question of drug death in the US.

BTW a direct result of the establishment medical and pharmaceutical industry.

 

 

I love science and math which given my propensity for "conspiracy " seems at odds.

Gizmo there's little point me expressing my worries I get laid out through the plethora of msm science on Google. 

But ffs the 30s the 40s yhe 59s the 60s the 70s the 80s the 99setc is littered with treatments that were unethical or evil.

When we have a character such as gates when we have the corrupt WORLD HEALTH (you have to laugh)ORGANISATION leading policy.

I'm not buying into it without question.

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

Aye well said

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

I look forward to the youtube videos telling us water is harmless and why we shouldn't build an Ark but simply ingest "X vet product" to make ourselves more buoyant.   

[Taffin]

Tin foil hat or not, I still find it incredible that the below led to the hysteria it did.

 

How does it compare to other infections/illnesses etc?

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

 

 

I love science and math which given my propensity for "conspiracy " seems at odds.

 

 

It's ****ing maths, you cretin.

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Taffin said:

Tin foil hat or not, I still find it incredible that the below led to the hysteria it did.

 

How does it compare to other infections/illnesses etc?

 

That's not what led to the hysteria though, it was the fact that people were dying, it was spreading and nutating, and we didn't know how to stop it.

 

We were one unlucky mutation away from serious trouble.

Edited January 9 by ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS

[Footballfirst]

On 05/01/2024 at 21:03, Ked said:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00221-1/fulltext

 

It's fairly significant and not amongst the elderly.

I've finally got round to having a look at the ONS death stats for 2023 (England only) .  The Lancet article focussed stats for England in 2022 and the first half of 2023.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

 

The provisional figure for total deaths registered in 2023 in England were:

2023 - 543,893 (2022 - 540,152)

5 year average 517,005.

Excess deaths 26,888

 

The overall excess deaths figure for 2023 was 5.2% above the 5 year average. (Not great, but not as bad as Lancet article suggests). 20,554 of the excess deaths occurred in the first half of the year.

 

The dataset I looked at doesn't show a breakdown of causes by age group, although it did show that over 15,000 deaths were recorded with Covid on the death certificate, two thirds of which were due to Covid.

 

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

13 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

I think a couple of the posters who are not foil-hatters have said it’s ok to question the experts it’s just when and how you do it that’s important which seems fair enough

 

 

 

 

Or another interpretation. It is fine to question and make your own personal judgements.

Not so fine to tell others to what to do and even less fine to ridicule them for following advice that is better informed than yours.  Same goes for having a pop at the poor guys who were trying to operate within the rules to keep their businesses going. And worth thinking about your contribution to getting the virus under control and helping end the restrictions. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

10 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Snarky. 😆

Only a Google away: https://healthfeedback.org/authors/john-campbell/

However, as I watched his more reasoned videos at the start of the pandemic, I did spot the direction he was going in and stopped watching. I'm sure you'd agree it is important to get a variety of sources of information.  I watch and disseminate the videos shared and the articles cited, yes even the ones shared by the Bacofoil shareholders. 

I agree a breadth of sources is good

 

i had a quick look at your link - what makes the other guy definitely right ?
 

also I notice a lot of them refer to Campbell and a variety of other people - I’m presuming it is the other person making the claim rather than Campbell albeit Campbell is giving them the platform

 

of the ones I’ve watched other than the unsaid ‘it’s the vaccines’ spiel he sometimes uses he just tends to present a big bunch of stuff give references to data / stude tells people to look it up and make up their own minds rather than actually present any conclusions himself

 

even with his vaccine inference he does say that some of the perceived issues with the vaccines could be caused by after effects of covid so that seemed fairly balanced to me albeit he then goes on to show countries with lower uptakes of vaccine with less excess deaths and countries with lower incidence of covid and higher uptake of vaccine with higher excess deaths which on the face of it a very high-level could be significant and rounds it off with this needs further investigation / discussion

 

 

there’s plenty videos I haven’t seen so maybe he’s a bit more bold / silly in them

 

 

[Ulysses]

Just now, Ked said:

I know you horrible git.

 

To avoid any doubt you and others put me to bed.

And as I've said not for the first time I've been given a lesson.

 

I'm not giving you any lesson, nor am I looking to do so. 

 

Anti-vax fear and scaremongering is unreasonable and irrational, plain and simple, and the way in which many people out there try to discredit something which have saved countless millions of lives over a period of more than 80 years is nothing short of shameful.  Honestly, I would be more than happy to give up my atheism if I could reserve a special place in hell for people who try to persuade others that there is something wrong with the childhood immunisation system, and worse would inflict an absence of those vaccines on children along with the pain, suffering, disability and death that would follow.  And by the way, what they really mean is that they'd be more than happy to see all that inflicted on someone else's kids, not their own.  As far as I am concerned ****ers like that can quite simply **** the ****ing **** right off.

 

There is a different debate about the Covid-19 vaccines.  They are safe, notwithstanding the issues that arose in a small number out of the billions of doses given.  However, now that we're out of the pandemic stage of living with Covid-19 there is a valid discussion to be had about their value for people who are younger and whose health is not compromised.  That's why I raised my question about the different approaches being taken by our health services and those in the UK.  Are the Irish taking an overly cautious line on this?  Or are the UK authorities being a wee bit too relaxed?  What do they do in other countries?

 

Likewise, there is a legitimate debate to be had about the way governments handled the pandemic, and what they got right and wrong.  I have my own opinions about that, especially about the excessive caution of the Irish authorities after a critical mass of the population here had been vaccinated.  But too many of the most vociferous people looking to be critical have no interest in what can be learned, or how mistakes can be rectified, or what we should do and not do if something like this were ever to happen again.  They're just angry and cranky.  They were angry and cranky back then and they still are.  Moreover, a good percentage of them are frequently angry and cranky about a load of other things, and they rarely have as much as a single constructive idea for how things could be done better.  And frankly, life's too short to waste time listening to people moaning and venting without offering any solutions and alternatives.

 

By the way, I see that the Spanish are reintroducing mandatory mask wearing in hospitals.  We await the fury of the naysayers.   

[Taffin]

12 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

That's not what led to the hysteria though, it was the fact that people were dying, it was spreading and nutating, and we didn't know how to stop it.

 

We were one unlucky mutation away from serious trouble.

 

The only thing to fear was fear itself. People are always dying. 

 

When the risk is so incredibly low you can always say "I was x,y,z unlucky thing away from catastrophe".

 

I was one unlucky collision away from death on my drive home. I won't avoid driving tomorrow on the off chance my luck runs out...and my risk factor is significantly higher in that instance.

Edited January 9 by Taffin

[Ulysses]

17 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

You'd have encountered similar de-industrialisation in the bigger cities, presumably? I can't say I would know the poverty levels relative to Scotland, in say Dublin or Cork (or even Belfast, to bring your neighbours into the picture).  

 

Broadly similar, except of course that urban areas in the Republic weren't heavily industrialised to begin with.  But spending on the Irish health and welfare systems has grown significantly since 2015, and crucially it underwent only minor cuts during the post-2008 crisis.  The big issue for us these days is the cost and availability of housing.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

The only thing to fear was fear itself.

 

When the risk is so incredibly low you can always say "I was x,y,z unlucky thing away from catastrophe".

 

I was one unlucky collision away from death on my drive home. I won't avoid driving tomorrow on the off chance my luck runs out...and my risk factor is significantly higher in that instance.

People were dying, 2 of my ex's family died early on. It would have been an incredible dereliction of duty if governments hadn't acted.

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

People were dying, 2 of my ex's family died early on. It would have been an incredible dereliction of duty if governments hadn't acted.

 

As sad as that is, people are always dying, of many things. The government aren't there to eliminate all risk of living. 

 

I can't look at those figures and feel it was all anything other than it was a massive over-reaction. More than happy to accept others don't think that though. I just sincerely hope we don't try and make society live in a manner where such drastic action is taken over such minimal risk.

[i wish jj was my dad]

21 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

That's not what led to the hysteria though, it was the fact that people were dying, it was spreading and nutating, and we didn't know how to stop it.

 

We were one unlucky mutation away from serious trouble.

I think that's a good way of looking at it. Nobody knew how it would pan out. 

I was never personally worried about the impact of covid on my own long term health and was prepared to take my own chances but I was pretty mindful of passing it on to others more vulnerable.  

[Ulysses]

Years ago during the "mad cow disease" episode, there was a reader's letter in Viz magazine that went something like: "I never feed beef to my kids because of mad cow disease.  Instead I feed it to my gran because she's 81 and will be dead soon anyway."  

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

26 minutes ago, Taffin said:

Tin foil hat or not, I still find it incredible that the below led to the hysteria it did.

 

How does it compare to other infections/illnesses etc?

im taking these figures at face value and assuming they are grouped only by age

 

if they were further analysed by previously healthy and previously less healthy whatever the definitions of these would need to be then almost certainly the healthy risk of dying will be significantly lower and sadly less healthy significantly higher if my memory of the affect of co-morbidities is holding up correctly

 

not great for the less healthy and as usual requires the ‘they’re still valuable too’ caveat

 

im guessing most other risks to death will also be heavily-influenced by the existing healthiness or otherwise of the person / people / group in question

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taffin]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think that's a good way of looking at it. Nobody knew how it would pan out. 

I was never personally worried about the impact of covid on my own long term health and was prepared to take my own chances but I was pretty mindful of passing it on to others more vulnerable.  

 

This is all well and good, and of course the correct approach. Mindful isn't living indoors and socialising only with a bubble though to me. It's not going into a care home when ill for example. That extends to a far wider array of things than just COVID though. It's the why was it COVID and only COVID that suddenly seemed to have people caring that I find interesting.

 

For example, what do you do to be mindful about not contributing to air pollution and the premature deaths from that? Or do you just not really think about it?

 

1 minute ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

im taking these figures at face value and assuming they are grouped only by age

 

if they were further analysed by previously healthy and previously less healthy whatever the definitions of these would need to be then almost certainly the healthy risk of dying will be significantly lower and sadly less healthy significantly higher if my memory of the affect of co-morbidities is holding up correctly

 

not great for the less healthy and as usual requires the ‘they’re still valuable too’ caveat

 

im guessing most other risks to death will also be heavily-influenced by the existing healthiness or otherwise of the person / people / group in question

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I'm aware, it's only grouped by age. So yes, it could be split down further I'm sure.

[Footballfirst]

16 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

As sad as that is, people are always dying, of many things. The government aren't there to eliminate all risk of living. 

 

I can't look at those figures and feel it was all anything other than it was a massive over-reaction. More than happy to accept others don't think that though. I just sincerely hope we don't try and make society live in a manner where such drastic action is taken over such minimal risk.

I disagree completely that it was an over reaction.

 

Forecasts at the start of the pandemic was that there would be around 800,000 deaths across the UK if nothing was done. The fact that the lockdowns and other NPI's before the vaccination programme started kept that number down to around 200,000 was vindication of the approach adopted, in my opinion.

 

You asked earlier about comparable death rates for diseases other than Covid. I'm not aware of any that are readily available, but I do find the Covid death rates a concern. I am in my 60s. If someone told me that I had a 3.6% chance (approx 1 in 28) of dying if I contracted Covid, them I'm damn sure I'd be getting vaccinated as soon as possible.  I'm aware of having caught it once with minimal impact and I'm grateful for having had the vaccination before then.  

Edited January 9 by Footballfirst

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

6 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think that's a good way of looking at it. Nobody knew how it would pan out. 

I was never personally worried about the impact of covid on my own long term health and was prepared to take my own chances but I was pretty mindful of passing it on to others more vulnerable.  

it didn’t take long at all to see who was at much higher risk than others but of course great publicity was given to the few apparently fit and healthy gym-goers who died under the banner of it being an indiscriminate killer which to be fair struggled to be carried-off over an extended period even amongst a general fearful population

 

[contrast that with the rare cases of healthy vaccine deaths which get much less publicity beyond the foil sites]
 

the risk of passing it on to the vulnerable should have been at the top of everyone’s list and still should be now (within reason) with stuff like flu - we had a relative hospitalised and in big trouble with flu a few years before the pandemic and learning from that near miss kept our distance when ill long before covid or social distancing was an official practice 

 

I would hope if someone’s loaded with the cold they’d give visiting granny in the care home a miss for a week or two even now - different going shopping or to the football where it’s more of a free-for-all turn up at your own risk type scenario

 

 

 

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I disagree completely that it was an over reaction.

 

Forecasts at the start of the pandemic was that there would be around 800,000 deaths across the UK if nothing was done. The fact that the lockdowns and other NPI's before the vaccination programme started kept that number down to around 200,000 was vindication of the approach adopted, in my opinion.

 

I'm afraid (and I'm happy to be called a tin foil hat wearing youtuber in this instance) but I place very little credibility in those forecasts. I know, that's an easy cop out. I'm also not suggesting we should have done nothing, but I think a lot of the restrictions were just bizarre and ludicrous.

 

Go to work, travel around the country...but don't visit your girlfriend...but now you can if you're in a bubble...but not in that county.

 

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

You asked earlier about comparable death rates for diseases other than Covid. I'm not aware of any that are readily available, but I do find the Covid death rates a concern. I am in my 60s. If someone told me that I had a 3.6% chance (approx 1 in 28) of dying if I contracted Covid, them I'm damn sure I'd be getting vaccinated as soon as possible.  I'm aware of having caught it once with minimal impact and I'm grateful for having had the vaccination before then.  

 

Of course, but I'd expect anyone of any age to be concerned about things that may kill them. By the same extension, I wouldn't expect others to be concerned enough to live indoors, lose their professions and pause their lives if they had a 0.2% chance of dying if they caught something.

 

That's why I'm curious about other diseases. Surely a fair few aren't far off that yet we don't enter a collective hysteria over it.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

This is all well and good, and of course the correct approach. Mindful isn't living indoors and socialising only with a bubble though to me. It's not going into a care home when ill for example. That extends to a far wider array of things than just COVID though. It's the why was it COVID and only COVID that suddenly seemed to have people caring that I find interesting.

 

There were plenty of rules that were beyond stupid. Keeping public toilets closed so people ended up peeing in public parks for example. 

 

Another rule I struggled with was visiting an elderly relative at Xmas knowing I wasn't able to go inside and have a cup of tea with her and it turned out to be the last Xmas she was in control of her faculties. She was adamant she didn't care if I passed something on. Whether not going in was the right thing or not, it was another example of having no easy choices. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

22 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I disagree completely that it was an over reaction.

 

Forecasts at the start of the pandemic was that there would be around 800,000 deaths across the UK if nothing was done. The fact that the lockdowns and other NPI's before the vaccination programme started kept that number down to around 200,000 was vindication of the approach adopted, in my opinion.

 

You asked earlier about comparable death rates for diseases other than Covid. I'm not aware of any that are readily available, but I do find the Covid death rates a concern. I am in my 60s. If someone told me that I had a 3.6% chance (approx 1 in 28) of dying if I contracted Covid, them I'm damn sure I'd be getting vaccinated as soon as possible.  I'm aware of having caught it once with minimal impact and I'm grateful for having had the vaccination before then.  

again not de-valuing the less healthy but assuming you’re relatively healthy your risk would likely be no where near that - if you are less healthy (hopefully not) then you would have to be extra careful as lots of less healthy people have to be with lots of risks fairly insignificant to others

 

also the projections and all that stuff have been discussed with little shift in peoples opinions so not really worth going there but if (emphasis being on the word if) a stack of these excess deaths are as a result of lockdown and other interventions then surely they should be included as a balancing figure and as I’ve posted previously some not-the-science expert who warned against this stressed his case by suggesting expected years lost as a better measure rather than number of lives lost (again caveating that people in their later years are important too )

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9 by MoncurMacdonaldMercer

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 hours ago, Gizmo said:

I think the recent drop in life expectancy is linked to over a decade of government austerity policies. Presumably, the erosion of the NHS and the pandemic have not helped, though I am not sure if there is enough data yet to calculate those aspects. 

Glasgow has long suffered from lower life expectancy and there have been a lot of studies on this. Poverty, pollution, hard men working punishing heavy industrial jobs, high crime, alcoholism, smoking, diet, drugs and gangs were all agreed to be contributing factors. But even when that is taken into account in the data and by comparison to other de-industrialised cities like Liverpool & Manchester, the underlying life expectancy is still lower - so perhaps there is more to play and it's incredibly difficult to tackle. 

One good article here: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jun/10/glasgow-effect-die-young-high-risk-premature-death It tries but does not manage to avoid citing basically "lack of hope" as a factor but it does explore the subject matter in a bit of depth. 

There are a whole host of threads where daily mail, express and Tufton Street acolytes try to dismiss the effects of thatcherism, de-industrialisation, the consequential decline in communities and how that is connected with poverty, addiction, crime and dependence on benefits. The very things that follow a lack of hope. Funnily enough they tended to be in the camp that opposed restrictions and the vaccine programme. 

[escobri]

15 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Jewish sea serpents and Jewish covid . 

look what you made my algorithms show up last night 🤣

 

[escobri]

Guys it's a minefield of disinformation out there so be careful where you're limited algorithms take you. Here's some more for you.

I must warn you though, it contains some MSM.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

46 minutes ago, escobri said:

Guys it's a minefield of disinformation out there so be careful where you're limited algorithms take you. Here's some more for you.

I must warn you though, it contains some MSM.

 

 

Excellent stuff 

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, escobri said:

Guys it's a minefield of disinformation out there so be careful where you're limited algorithms take you. Here's some more for you.

I must warn you though, it contains some MSM.

 

 

Well, that was exciting. Conspiritard doesn’t understand the change of messaging during an emergent situation or, being charitable, does know but uses it to their own ends. 
 

Amazing. 😐
 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, escobri said:

Guys it's a minefield of disinformation out there so be careful where you're limited algorithms take you. Here's some more for you.

I must warn you though, it contains some MSM.

 

 

 

some people understandably a bit embarrassed will try to pass this off as just normal stuff

 

there were two or three fauci fawners on here quoting him a lot back in the day

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ked]

13 hours ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

It's ****ing maths, you cretin.

 

😅 

 

13 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'm not giving you any lesson, nor am I looking to do so. 

 

Anti-vax fear and scaremongering is unreasonable and irrational, plain and simple, and the way in which many people out there try to discredit something which have saved countless millions of lives over a period of more than 80 years is nothing short of shameful.  Honestly, I would be more than happy to give up my atheism if I could reserve a special place in hell for people who try to persuade others that there is something wrong with the childhood immunisation system, and worse would inflict an absence of those vaccines on children along with the pain, suffering, disability and death that would follow.  And by the way, what they really mean is that they'd be more than happy to see all that inflicted on someone else's kids, not their own.  As far as I am concerned ****ers like that can quite simply **** the ****ing **** right off.

 

There is a different debate about the Covid-19 vaccines.  They are safe, notwithstanding the issues that arose in a small number out of the billions of doses given.  However, now that we're out of the pandemic stage of living with Covid-19 there is a valid discussion to be had about their value for people who are younger and whose health is not compromised.  That's why I raised my question about the different approaches being taken by our health services and those in the UK.  Are the Irish taking an overly cautious line on this?  Or are the UK authorities being a wee bit too relaxed?  What do they do in other countries?

 

Likewise, there is a legitimate debate to be had about the way governments handled the pandemic, and what they got right and wrong.  I have my own opinions about that, especially about the excessive caution of the Irish authorities after a critical mass of the population here had been vaccinated.  But too many of the most vociferous people looking to be critical have no interest in what can be learned, or how mistakes can be rectified, or what we should do and not do if something like this were ever to happen again.  They're just angry and cranky.  They were angry and cranky back then and they still are.  Moreover, a good percentage of them are frequently angry and cranky about a load of other things, and they rarely have as much as a single constructive idea for how things could be done better.  And frankly, life's too short to waste time listening to people moaning and venting without offering any solutions and alternatives.

 

By the way, I see that the Spanish are reintroducing mandatory mask wearing in hospitals.  We await the fury of the naysayers.   

👍

 

13 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I've finally got round to having a look at the ONS death stats for 2023 (England only) .  The Lancet article focussed stats for England in 2022 and the first half of 2023.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

 

The provisional figure for total deaths registered in 2023 in England were:

2023 - 543,893 (2022 - 540,152)

5 year average 517,005.

Excess deaths 26,888

 

The overall excess deaths figure for 2023 was 5.2% above the 5 year average. (Not great, but not as bad as Lancet article suggests). 20,554 of the excess deaths occurred in the first half of the year.

 

The dataset I looked at doesn't show a breakdown of causes by age group, although it did show that over 15,000 deaths were recorded with Covid on the death certificate, two thirds of which were due to Covid.

 

 

 

 

I was/am all over the place on this.

But it's good others have "stepped in" with more credible posting.

 

 

Apart from Tarkin the !@#£

😄

[That thing you do]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12942189/Covid-vaccine-effects-Facebook-censoring.html

 

Seems to now be getting out there a bit more. They can sugar coat "small number of affected patients" all they like but these jabs has years less testing and this kind of thing was inevitable. 

 

That facebook and other platforms censor talk of vaccine side effects is appaling.

[Footballfirst]

15 minutes ago, Ked said:

😅

 

👍

 

I was/am all over the place on this.

But it's good others have "stepped in" with more credible posting.

 

 

Apart from Tarkin the !@#£

😄

It might be worth noting the age groups of those dying from all causes over the year. Using the 2023 ONS stats for England and Wales, you get the following breakdown.

0-9 - 0.5%

10-19 - 0.2%

20-29 - 0.5%

30-39 - 1.2%

40-49 - 2.4%

50-59 - 5.9%

60-69 - 11.2%

70-79 - 22.9%

80+ - 55%

 

It shows that small numbers of young people die each year, so any variations in specific causes can appear as large %age differences within an age group.  However, it is clearly worth investigating the rise seen in heart related deaths as highlighted in the Lancet article.

[escobri]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Well, that was exciting. Conspiritard doesn’t understand the change of messaging during an emergent situation or, being charitable, does know but uses it to their own ends. 
 

Amazing. 😐
 

 

I've got some magic beans, would you like to buy some?

[Ulysses]

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

45 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12942189/Covid-vaccine-effects-Facebook-censoring.html

 

Seems to now be getting out there a bit more. They can sugar coat "small number of affected patients" all they like but these jabs has years less testing and this kind of thing was inevitable. 

 

That facebook and other platforms censor talk of vaccine side effects is appaling.

that grifting nurse Campbell did a talk on comparing adverse affects of Covid jabs versus other vaccines

 

the Covid jab came out 100s of times more likely to cause issues than the benchmark for the others 

 

he did post links / advise where the data and studies were but given his foil hat grifter status probably nonsense / biased / don’t exist at all 

 

he advised viewers to visit the sources and check for themselves but I never bothered 😕 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

This one is rapidly overtaking the 'we are not alone' thread in terms of spiking levels of wibble and bat-shittery and top quality 'You Tube' evidence sources.

 

UFO's and deep state conspiracy as bed-fellows? Who'd have thunk it?

[Jeffros Furios]

8 hours ago, escobri said:

look what you made my algorithms show up last night 🤣

 

Secret Jewish covid tunnels ..  it was the tunnels that brought down the twin towers .. 

Follow the money 

[Gizmo]

5 hours ago, escobri said:

I've got some magic beans, would you like to buy some?

Nah mate, if it's all the same I'll leave them with the gullible fool who originally bought them.  

[Ked]

7 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

It might be worth noting the age groups of those dying from all causes over the year. Using the 2023 ONS stats for England and Wales, you get the following breakdown.

0-9 - 0.5%

10-19 - 0.2%

20-29 - 0.5%

30-39 - 1.2%

40-49 - 2.4%

50-59 - 5.9%

60-69 - 11.2%

70-79 - 22.9%

80+ - 55%

 

It shows that small numbers of young people die each year, so any variations in specific causes can appear as large %age differences within an age group.  However, it is clearly worth investigating the rise seen in heart related deaths as highlighted in the Lancet article.

Thanks buddy 

[Ked]

21 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I might have missed it but I don't think anybody has said anything remotely like that?

Ach mate.

I post too often without checking .

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

Ach mate.

I post too often without checking .

 

No probs. I know you aren't trying to be a smart arse but stuff like that can become accepted as fact and encourages, ahem, unhelpful commentary that can distract from what is a worthwhile debate 

[Ked]

7 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

No probs. I know you aren't trying to be a smart arse but stuff like that can become accepted as fact and encourages, ahem, unhelpful commentary that can distract from what is a worthwhile debate 

Mmm.

There's a lot to be questioned albeit not from me as the best starter.

 

I've already said about the shed that it's a really good place to exchange views.

And I doubt anyone would take my premise as fact.

We are not changing public perception buddy and its healthy to rip the pish when it's guid guys like me ....😄...and you.....I suppose 😀 

I've had my arse kicked a few times on here.

 

But mate I've nailed some healthy.

Oh those wee victories ✌️ 😍 

 

I drink too much which sometimes sees me ranting .

Brutal the morning after when ye see replies from certain posters 😅

Ye just ken yie getting it tight.

 

Aww see they-"%£#