Sooks Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ked said: The world isn't looking away . The world is participating in it. It's another theatre of proxy war. It's all the time .There's always conflict and there's quite a few that rarely make the news. All backed one way or the other. That said Israel have to address the Gaza strip. It's unsustainable.How they do that with all the players involved I have know clue. We the electorate of democratic countries are looking the other way . Our governments are overseeing millions of people living under apartheid and being thrown off their land . We should demand more of our leaders when it comes to their support or lack of criticism for such things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, ri Alban said: Na, The Zoinists are the intruders. I wouldn't disagree but we're past the point now, we were past that point in 1948 and 1967. The reality is what it is now. 3 minutes ago, Ked said: https://apnews.com/article/russia-israel-palestinians-war-mideast-putin-63552cc5d310a9c5a2e1b9ad76081aeb Most of Putin's oligarchs are Jews and Israeli passport holders and many Israeli's are 2nd, 3rd generation Soviets. Putin has always been pro Israel but he's allies with the Syrians & Iranians too. I can see why conflict in the middle East could be beneficial for him, the US may have to slow production or divert military aid from Ukraine to Israel but unlikely it will have any real bearing in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Cruyff said: I wouldn't disagree but we're past the point now, we were past that point in 1948 and 1967. The reality is what it is now. Most of Putin's oligarchs are Jews and Israeli passport holders and many Israeli's are 2nd, 3rd generation Soviets. Putin has always been pro Israel but he's allies with the Syrians & Iranians too. I can see why conflict in the middle East could be beneficial for him, the US may have to slow production or divert military aid from Ukraine to Israel but unlikely it will have any real bearing in the short term. I also posted about China but not to implicate them. They like Russia tread carefully. Benefits both. I agree Iran are all over it but it shows how difficult a problem it is in comparison to Irelands peacemaking process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Ked said: I also posted about China but not to implicate them. They like Russia tread carefully. Benefits both. I agree Iran are all over it but it shows how difficult a problem it is in comparison to Irelands peacemaking process. Russia treads carefully? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, redjambo said: Russia treads carefully? In relation to Israel/Palestine As does China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Ked said: In relation to Israel/Palestine As does China. It's probably more the case that Israel treads carefully regarding Russia, particularly with the recent increased military cooperation between Russia and Iran. I don't think "treading carefully" influences Russian policy much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 10 minutes ago, redjambo said: It's probably more the case that Israel treads carefully regarding Russia, particularly with the recent increased military cooperation between Russia and Iran. I don't think "treading carefully" influences Russian policy much at all. They do regarding Ukraine . And yes the Syrian conflict is a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 36 minutes ago, Sooks said: I just do not understand how people can switch off to the murder of innocents and justify it . I hate Hamas because they kill innocents and I hate the Israeli security forces for the same reason . The Palestinian people who have lived there for centuries that are now getting thrown off their land are just being treated like collateral damage and their lives disregarded as unimportant . It is a humanitarian disaster but the world is looking the other way Why did nobody gives a shiny shite when Afghanistan was pulped and occupied for, frankly , a lesser offence . They only let the terrorists use their land. They didn’t let them run the whole territory ! Didnt see much in the way of protest there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 15 hours ago, Ulysses said: If I were living in Gaza, I would dance and celebrate while Hamas slaughtered Israelis, preferably as many as possible, and not as much as a single **** would I give about who they were and what level of responsibility they might have for the conditions in which I were living. If I were Israeli, I would cheer on the IDF as it set out to kill, maim, hurt, displace and make miserable as many Palestinians as possible, and not as much as a single **** would I give about who they were and what level of responsibility they might have for any attacks on Israel, whether they affected me personally or not. Both of the above statements probably mark me out as a bollox. But how many of us would genuinely feel differently if we had either of those lives to lead? It's realistic. The problem on this thread and many like it is that it's extremely polarized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, doctor jambo said: Why did nobody gives a shiny shite when Afghanistan was pulped and occupied for, frankly , a lesser offence . They only let the terrorists use their land. They didn’t let them run the whole territory ! Didnt see much in the way of protest there. Why does no one give a shiny shite about what's happening to Armenians in land Azerbaijan wants? Why anything? There's a hundred whatabouts we could throw and none of them make it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: Why did nobody gives a shiny shite when Afghanistan was pulped and occupied for, frankly , a lesser offence . They only let the terrorists use their land. They didn’t let them run the whole territory ! Didnt see much in the way of protest there. The protests against the Iraq war were massive. Didn't matter a jot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 5 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said: James Cleverly is on Laura Kuensberg just now having a nightmare. There have already been more civilians killed in Gaza than were killed in Israel. Claims he is not a lawyer but won’t tell what the legal advice to the UK government is but claims that international law is being upheld. Watching Victoria Derbyshire standing in for Laura now. Actually feel it's her that is having the nightmare - she is trying to boil the whole situation down to a series of soundbites and constantly talking over her guests (of all stripes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Ked said: The protests against the Iraq war were massive. Didn't matter a jot. 1 minute ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said: Why does no one give a shiny shite about what's happening to Armenians in land Azerbaijan wants? Why anything? There's a hundred whatabouts we could throw and none of them make it right. This is true, and same with the Uighur , and various other minorities. Yet Israel steps out and suddenly there is a huge rent a mob . Its anti semitic. People hate the Jews, it’s why Israel came into being, and why the Jews will never give it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, doctor jambo said: This is true, and same with the Uighur , and various other minorities. Yet Israel steps out and suddenly there is a huge rent a mob . Its anti semitic. People hate the Jews, it’s why Israel came into being, and why the Jews will never give it up It's not all anti semitic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas-voss Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 7 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: Watching Victoria Derbyshire standing in for Laura now. Actually feel it's her that is having the nightmare - she is trying to boil the whole situation down to a series of soundbites and constantly talking over her guests (of all stripes). It's been that way with all journalist since the start putting politicians in impossible situations knowing full well they can't really say anything than follow the party lines so even if some are massively against what is happening it's hard for them to say how they feel.They all end up looking like right ***** imo and the interviewers know it. That being said though I think the interviewers have the right to ask them such questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 On 14/10/2023 at 09:56, hughesie27 said: Has there actually been any attacks on threats on Jewish buildings this week? £3 million been spent by the Gov on security. If there has then mentalbfolk out there. Probably the same folk who trashed Chinese takeaways in Covid. Person arrested as hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage is done to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in vandalism attack (msn.com) There have also been shops/restaurants attacked that I'm aware of, though I think by and large folks are trying to tamper things down rather than incite copycats. You'll find it on google though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: Person arrested as hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage is done to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in vandalism attack (msn.com) There have also been shops/restaurants attacked that I'm aware of, though I think by and large folks are trying to tamper things down rather than incite copycats. You'll find it on google though. "There is no indication that this incident is linked to antisemitism." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 6 minutes ago, vegas-voss said: It's been that way with all journalist since the start putting politicians in impossible situations knowing full well they can't really say anything than follow the party lines so even if some are massively against what is happening it's hard for them to say how they feel.They all end up looking like right ***** imo and the interviewers know it. That being said though I think the interviewers have the right to ask them such questions. I totally agree with the principle but it's getting really cack handed; at the end of the day I want to know what the guest on the show thinks. The minute it started getting interesting with the Palestinian ambassador she ran a mile and then just talked over Lamy, Cleverly and to a much lesser extent Youssaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said: "There is no indication that this incident is linked to antisemitism." So an attack on the “yids” stadium is a coincidence . As are the massive protests all across the country that the same folk couldn’t get worked up to protest anything else in the last few years. It’s anti semitism . Why are Glaswegians so bothered about Palestine , and not any other persecuted minority on the face of the earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: This is true, and same with the Uighur , and various other minorities. Yet Israel steps out and suddenly there is a huge rent a mob . Its anti semitic. People hate the Jews, it’s why Israel came into being, and why the Jews will never give it up It's such an easy thing to hide behind. Israel being a prick doesn't mean those saying it are anti-semites. There was a lot of coverage and protest about the treatment of Uighurs a few years back. Were those people anti-buddhist? Anti-Taoist? Are those supporting Ukraine anti-christianity? Edited October 15, 2023 by Taffin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Taffin said: It's such an easy thing to hide behind. Israel being a prick doesn't mean those saying it are anti-semites. There was a lot of coverage and protest about the treatment of Uighurs a few years back. Where those people anti-buddhist? Anti-Taoist? Was there? Thousands marching with flags through UK cities, trying to get to embassies and burning Chinese flags? Must have missed them … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 33 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: This is true, and same with the Uighur , and various other minorities. Yet Israel steps out and suddenly there is a huge rent a mob . Its anti semitic. People hate the Jews, it’s why Israel came into being, and why the Jews will never give it up Some of it will be antisemitic and some of the other side will be islamaphobia We should not cheapen the situation by lowering the bar to the lowest denominator and shut down legitimate concerns by applying those labels to anyone who disagrees with our points of view I am not antisemitic nor islamaphobic but I disagree with the killing by IDF and Hamas Too much criticism has already been shut down by labelling people antisemitic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: So an attack on the “yids” stadium is a coincidence . As are the massive protests all across the country that the same folk couldn’t get worked up to protest anything else in the last few years. It’s anti semitism . Why are Glaswegians so bothered about Palestine , and not any other persecuted minority on the face of the earth? I'm not saying any of those things, you need to calm down. The question was about Jewish buildings and the article in the reply had that quote from the police. I have no side in this, but characterising all anti Zionists as anti Semitic is very poor form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Keir Starmer, Kid Starver. Think it’s safe to say he hasn’t come out off this very well. Think Frankie Boyle’s tweet puts it best. Being appalled by Terrorism but unfazed by Genocide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Ked said: I also posted about China but not to implicate them. They like Russia tread carefully. Benefits both. I agree Iran are all over it but it shows how difficult a problem it is in comparison to Irelands peacemaking process. https://youtube.com/shorts/-ctGKc2klMI?feature=share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Cruyff said: https://youtube.com/shorts/-ctGKc2klMI?feature=share Thanks. Although there's a part of me that feels a bit patronised I won't give into my oaronia. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 11 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said: I'm not saying any of those things, you need to calm down. The question was about Jewish buildings and the article in the reply had that quote from the police. I have no side in this, but characterising all anti Zionists as anti Semitic is very poor form. Plenty other incidents out there, why don't you try google? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 11 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said: I'm not saying any of those things, you need to calm down. The question was about Jewish buildings and the article in the reply had that quote from the police. I have no side in this, but characterising all anti Zionists as anti Semitic is very poor form. I’m not even vaguely worked up. Israel exists because people hate the Jews . Were people out burning Palestinians flags or defacing mosques after the Hamas atrocity? Were there even people on the streets? Did Islamic schools need protected? That would be no. So why so many keen to have a go at Jews , after Israel behaves like a twat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 13 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said: Keir Starmer, Kid Starver. Think it’s safe to say he hasn’t come out off this very well. Think Frankie Boyle’s tweet puts it best. Being appalled by Terrorism but unfazed by Genocide But it was Sunak who didn't mention Gaza or the Palestinians in his statement on Israel. Unlike for example the US Government. Pure electioneering by Sunak. Funny how some people ignore that and blame Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 11 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said: Keir Starmer, Kid Starver. Think it’s safe to say he hasn’t come out off this very well. Think Frankie Boyle’s tweet puts it best. Being appalled by Terrorism but unfazed by Genocide You cannot escape the fact whatever your view that the Gaza strip in its present form is illegal and an open prison. Israel over the next week will pull the trigger would the state of Israel be better served by not doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: Was there? Thousands marching with flags through UK cities, trying to get to embassies and burning Chinese flags? Must have missed them … Not sure. Never suggested they were trying to get into embassies or burning flags 🤷🏻♂️ It sounds like you did miss the press coverage and the protests though. And the support for Ukraine and vilification of Russia, anti-christianity I presume? Edited October 15, 2023 by Taffin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 This is Israel's challenge and problem. Though probably knowing Israel is knowledgeable suggests they want something different to stopping Hamas. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-lost-generation-conditioned-to-worship-death-israel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ked said: You cannot escape the fact whatever your view that the Gaza strip in its present form is illegal and an open prison. Israel over the next week will pull the trigger would the state of Israel be better served by not doing this? It will trigger a reaction of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Taffin said: Not sure. Never suggested they were trying to get into embassies or burning flags 🤷🏻♂️ It sounds like you did miss the press coverage and the protests though. And the support for Ukraine and vilification of Russia, anti-christianity I presume? Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 As someone above said it is seriously bad form to play the antisemitism card to try and deflect criticism of genocide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ked said: Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history? Without a doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ked Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Diadora Van Basten said: It will trigger a reaction of some sort. It won't happen but restraint from the Israelis would cool things but the risk is signs of weakness that embolden Tehran to up the stakes . That would lead to Iran being directly targeted. Which is likely in the next 5 years . Meanwhile no one gives a @#£ about the Gaza strip.But Israel must . It will break them if they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ked said: Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history? Probably not, no. Even if they were, I'm not sure that makes anyone protesting or being outspoken against Israel anti-semitic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysmithsgloves Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 26 minutes ago, Sooks said: As someone above said it is seriously bad form to play the antisemitism card to try and deflect criticism of genocide As is the constant use of the word genocide. When that is not happening . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Striker Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Can anyone help me understand something - what is it about Judaism that seems to make most Jews who live in countries hundreds of miles from Israel want to demonstrate support for Israel regardless of what military actions they take ? Jews who have never even been to Israel ? If they're so devoted to Israel for some reason, why aren't they living there ? It seems a bit like a hypothetical equivalent that If you were a devout (white) Christian back in the days of apartheid, would you automatically have shown support on the streets of Scotland for the regimes in Rhodesia and South Africa ? From memory, all the street demos involving white Scots were against the apartheid regimes (and rightly so, imo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: As is the constant use of the word genocide. When that is not happening . Righto acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyCant Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Ked said: Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history? You’d probably have to ask yourself if the historical and modern day persecution of black people in majority white countries, or even where whites were the wealthy minority is worse, and then put slavery into the equation, much of which was financed and facilitated by Jews. Edited October 15, 2023 by JimmyCant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said: Can anyone help me understand something - what is it about Judaism that seems to make most Jews who live in countries hundreds of miles from Israel want to demonstrate support for Israel regardless of what military actions they take ? Jews who have never even been to Israel ? If they're so devoted to Israel for some reason, why aren't they living there ? It seems a bit like a hypothetical equivalent that If you were a devout (white) Christian back in the days of apartheid, would you automatically have shown support on the streets of Scotland for the regimes in Rhodesia and South Africa ? From memory, all the street demos involving white Scots were against the apartheid regimes (and rightly so, imo) According to the IHRA definition, accusing a Jew living anywhere in the world of having more allegiance to Israel than the place they live is antisemitic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, JimmyCant said: You’d probably have to ask yourself if the historical and modern day persecution of black people in majority white countries, or even where whites were the wealthy minority is worse, and then put slavery into the equation, much of which was financed and facilitated by Jews. Also I guess it depends on whether you mean most persecuted as defined by: - worst treatment - %age of the group - total number I took it to be most peoples persecuted. For me that's women. Lots of groups can stake a claim though I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartsandonlyHearts Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 hours ago, ri Alban said: The west have been very soft on Israel for too long. WW2 and its horrors are now just a memory . Time to stop the fear of criticism because of the holocaust. Gross. But unsurprising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyCant Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Taffin said: Also I guess it depends on whether you mean most persecuted as defined by: - worst treatment - %age of the group - total number I took it to be most peoples persecuted. For me that's women. Lots of groups can stake a claim though I'm sure. Hmmm The Holocaust as an individual event trumps just about anything imaginable but if your just talking numbers and time span then certainly women followed by non whites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartsandonlyHearts Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Taffin said: Not sure. Never suggested they were trying to get into embassies or burning flags 🤷🏻♂️ It sounds like you did miss the press coverage and the protests though. And the support for Ukraine and vilification of Russia, anti-christianity I presume? Which of the two countries mentioned are Christian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatonjambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Ked said: Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history? i would say the Roma Gypsy community has had more persecution often termed the forgotten holocaust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatonjambo Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 22 minutes ago, Cade said: According to the IHRA definition, accusing a Jew living anywhere in the world of having more allegiance to Israel than the place they live is antisemitic That seems nuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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