Israel and Palestine

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

 

 

Plenty other incidents out there, why don't you try google?

 

Not my conversation, I just wanted to see the link and found that it specifically mentioned that it doesn't appear to be anti Semitic.

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Not my conversation, I just wanted to see the link and found that it specifically mentioned that it doesn't appear to be anti Semitic.

 

🤣 oh you little joker you!! Don't read the context I offered and play a neutral card while trying to keep a straight face.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

🤣 oh you little joker you!! Don't read the context I offered and play a neutral card while trying to keep a straight face.

 

I wasn't in the conversation.

 

I wanted to know what the story said.

 

It specifically said the opposite of what it was purported to represent.

 

That's everything, I'm not arguing, I'm not saying there's been no buildings attacked, I'm literally just pointing out what it said.

[Cade]

12 minutes ago, heatonjambo said:

That seems nuts

 

The IHRA definition is bonkers.

It's effectively made any criticism of the actions of Israel into a hate crime.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Cade

[vegas-voss]

1 hour ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Keir Starmer, Kid Starver.

 

Think it’s safe to say he hasn’t come out off this very well.

 

Think Frankie Boyle’s tweet puts it best.

 

Being appalled by Terrorism but unfazed by Genocide

 

 

Again you can say that about nearly all politicains who have been interviewed.Not a fan of Frankie Boyle but it's a very true statement.

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I wasn't in the conversation.

 

I wanted to know what the story said.

 

It specifically said the opposite of what it was purported to represent.

 

That's everything, I'm not arguing, I'm not saying there's been no buildings attacked, I'm literally just pointing out what it said.

 

There have also been shops/restaurants attacked that I'm aware of, though I think by and large folks are trying to tamper things down rather than incite copycats. 

 

Jeez it's hard to take you seriously at times. Last thing the police want to do is come out and inflame things further. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

BBC sticklers for accuracy, as usual.

 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

There have also been shops/restaurants attacked that I'm aware of, though I think by and large folks are trying to tamper things down rather than incite copycats. 

 

Jeez it's hard to take you seriously at times. Last thing the police want to do is come out and inflame things further. 

 

It's impossible to take you seriously at all, you're arguing with someone who isn't arguing back!

 

I don't doubt bad things are on the rise, and in fact, I feared the worst opening that article - I was relieved it wasn't swastikas and death threats. I don't watch news, I can't read about all of this, so I get the gist from my social media and check what's presented, as far as I can stomach.

 

Everything else is what you imagine I'm thinking!

[heatonjambo]

16 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

The IHRA definition is bonkers.

It's effectively made any criticism of the actions of Israel into a hate crime.

 

Absolutely, and what the Zionist want.

 

but the fall out is if you want to criticise Israel just criticise a any jew

 

bonkers as you say

[Lone Striker]

20 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

The IHRA definition is bonkers.

It's effectively made any criticism of the actions of Israel into a hate crime.

 

Thanks, btw, for your reply earlier - I've been looking through the Wiki page about the IHRA  definition.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_definition_of_antisemitism

 

Its clearly been a contentious definition, and not universally adopted by all countries & organisations.

 

This extract from the Wiki page relating to the UK is rather interesting -

 

In October 2016, the cross-party Commons Home Affairs Select Committee reported on antisemitism in the UK.^[132] Its report included a long section on defining antisemitism, including a discussion of the working definition, noting that the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews gave evidence describing the definition as "helpful, comprehensive and fit for purpose", as well as a summary of some criticisms of the definition. Among the committee's recommendations were "that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic."^[133][134] The caveats were two additional clarifications designed to protect freedom of speech in discussion of Israel/Palestine:

It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent. It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government's policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.^{[133][135][136]}

In December 2016, the UK government responded that it had agreed to adopt the IHRA definition, but that the caveats were unnecessary given the definition's clause "criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic" is sufficient to ensure freedom of speech. The government also noted that the police already used a previous version of the definition (the EUMC version) and that it "is a useful tool for criminal justice agencies and other public bodies to use to understand how anti-Semitism manifests itself in the 21st century".^{[137][65][138]} Later that month, the government announced it would formally adopt the definition.^[139]

 

 

What do you make of that ?   A Select Committee's interpretation at odds with the Govt's  on such a simple statement  ?   Seems odd to me.

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

You’d probably have to ask yourself if the historical and modern day persecution of black people in majority white countries, or even where whites were the wealthy minority is worse, and then put slavery into the equation, much of which was financed and facilitated by Jews.

Blaming Jews for slavery (or financing much of it) is complete bollocks. Think the wealthy landowners in Africa who owned slaves, well before whites got into the act, did di with no Jewish help at all. Don't think the landowners in US or elsewhere in Europe were Jewish financed either.

Still, carry on blaming them for that if it helps you with your trolling.

[AlphonseCapone]

2 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Can anyone help me understand something - what is it about Judaism that seems to make most  Jews who live in countries hundreds of miles from Israel want to demonstrate support for Israel regardless of what military actions they take ?    Jews who have never even been to Israel  ?       If they're so devoted to Israel for some reason, why aren't they living there ?

 

It seems a bit like a hypothetical equivalent that If you  were a devout (white) Christian back in the days of apartheid, would you  automatically have shown support on the streets of Scotland  for the regimes in Rhodesia  and South Africa  ?   From memory, all the street demos involving white Scots were against the apartheid regimes (and rightly so, imo)

 

Is there a more real example closer to home? There are Scottish catholics that supported Irish independence over the British State in the more distant past as well as those supporting, vocally and financially sometimes, the IRA against the British state due to the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland. That's Catholics in one country supporting not technically another state elsewhere but what could be viewed as Catholic enclaves. Many had never set foot in Ireland or necessarily had direct family links.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

You’d probably have to ask yourself if the historical and modern day persecution of black people in majority white countries, or even where whites were the wealthy minority is worse, and then put slavery into the equation, much of which was financed and facilitated by Jews.

We’ve had a poster state that European and US forces helped Israelis escape the concentration camps. Close but no coconut.

Now we have you attempting to blame The Jews for financing slavery. Please tell me you worded it wrong. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Ked said:

Is it fair to say that Jews are the most persecuted in known history?

Really ? 

2 hours ago, heatonjambo said:

That seems nuts

 

[doctor jambo]

Israel is essentially a Jewish fortress, so that if in future another nation attempts a pogrom they have a refuge

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, heatonjambo said:

i would say the Roma Gypsy community has had more persecution 

 

often termed the forgotten holocaust 

Plus gays , lesbians , “ mental defectives” , political agitators , black , mixed heritage peoples etc 

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

We’ve had a poster state that European and US forces helped Israelis escape the concentration camps. Close but no coconut.

Now we have you attempting to blame The Jews for financing slavery. Please tell me you worded it wrong. 

Yes I worded it badly. Of course they weren’t solely responsible, but they fully participated and engaged with the processes. 75% of Jewish landowners in the south ‘owned’ slaves

[heatonjambo]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Plus gays , lesbians , “ mental defectives” , political agitators , black , mixed heritage peoples etc 

Absolutely 

 

7 million was not the holocaust 

 

it is accepted as circa around 12 million 

 

scholars now believe 14 million were exterminated 

a truly ter le period in human history that needs to be told in its entirety 

 

not trying to point score 

 

 

[Tazio]

7 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Yes I worded it badly. Of course they weren’t solely responsible, but they fully participated and engaged with the processes. 75% of Jewish landowners in the south ‘owned’ slaves

A lot of Jewish landowners were there? Not a massive percentage id imagine.As many as Scottish plantation owners in the Caribbean? 

[indianajones]

These protests etc. 

 

It's crazy how people can make horrendous wars etc into something that's all about me, me, me. 

 

Attention seeking wankers. Same with the black squares on social media etc. Me, me me. 

 

I hope all this conflict can end soon. 

[AlphonseCapone]

C'mon lads, are we really descending into playing maths around slavery and the holocaust.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

3 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Can anyone help me understand something - what is it about Judaism that seems to make most  Jews who live in countries hundreds of miles from Israel want to demonstrate support for Israel regardless of what military actions they take ?    Jews who have never even been to Israel  ?       If they're so devoted to Israel for some reason, why aren't they living there ?

 

It seems a bit like a hypothetical equivalent that If you  were a devout (white) Christian back in the days of apartheid, would you  automatically have shown support on the streets of Scotland  for the regimes in Rhodesia  and South Africa  ?   From memory, all the street demos involving white Scots were against the apartheid regimes (and rightly so, imo)

Thousands of years of persecution will do that to you. Not a religious same but we “Scots” are known for immigration to all corners of the world. If someone like Hitler went around picking up Scots wherever they lived and  started a cleansing. Scotland as a country would welcome all who escaped the persecution and then surviving Scots wandering the earth would feel a magnetic pull to Scotland. Or at least know they’ll always have a home if needed. That’s all I got.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Tazio said:

A lot of Jewish landowners were there? Not a massive percentage id imagine.As many as Scottish plantation owners in the Caribbean? 

I read the other day that Glasgow was the second richest city in the empire after London in the Victorian times . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, heatonjambo said:

Absolutely 

 

7 million was not the holocaust 

 

it is accepted as circa around 12 million 

 

scholars now believe 14 million were exterminated 

a truly ter le period in human history that needs to be told in its entirety 

 

not trying to point score 

 

 

👍👍

[Lone Striker]

11 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Is there a more real example closer to home? There are Scottish catholics that supported Irish independence over the British State in the more distant past as well as those supporting, vocally and financially sometimes, the IRA against the British state due to the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland. That's Catholics in one country supporting not technically another state elsewhere but what could be viewed as Catholic enclaves. Many had never set foot in Ireland or necessarily had direct family links.

Aye, thats a reasonable example.    However the  difference is that Ireland has never described itself as a "Catholic state"   (and wouldn't be allowed to anyway, as a EU member) -  in contrast to Israel describing itself as a "Jewish state" despite having a sizeable minority non-Jewish  (e.g. Arab) population, which implies the concept of second-class citizens exists.   

[Cade]

The original theory for the establishment of the State of Israel went like this:

Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.

They have nowhere safe to go.

They have no homeland where they can feel safe.

Ergo, Israel.

Now Jews have a place to go where they can be safe from persecution.

 

But since 1948, that thinking has been twisted by the Zionist heidbangers and now Israel is being converted to not just a safe place for Jews, but a state for Jews and Jews alone.
Christians and Muslims in Israel are now the persecuted minorities.

Any non Jews do not belong.

And the internationally recognised borders of Israel don't count because the religious texts say that the Jews own all the land in that region.

All of it.

Hence the illegal settlements.

So we've gone from a safe haven for persecuted Jews to an apartheid state which has been conducting a slow motion invasion and replacement programme for 80 years.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Cade

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

28 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Yes I worded it badly. Of course they weren’t solely responsible, but they fully participated and engaged with the processes. 75% of Jewish landowners in the south ‘owned’ slaves

I’d be surprised if it’s only 75%. I’d say all land owners owned slaves. 

[AlphonseCapone]

5 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Aye, thats a reasonable example.    However the  difference is that Ireland has never described itself as a "Catholic state"   (and wouldn't be allowed to anyway, as a EU member) -  in contrast to Israel describing itself as a "Jewish state" despite having a sizeable minority non-Jewish  (e.g. Arab) population, which implies the concept of second-class citizens exists.   

 

It's a unique situation for sure. I posted a few days ago about how citizenship and nationality in Israel is complicated. Any Jewish person that immigrates to Israel can become an Israeli citizen and only Jewish Israeli citizens need to do national service which I think is quite interesting.

[The Tackle]

3 hours ago, Sooks said:

As someone above said it is seriously bad form to play the antisemitism card to try and deflect criticism of genocide 

It’s not genocide, it’s apartheid.

[Tazio]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

So we've gone from a safe haven for persecuted Jews to an apartheid state which has been conducting a slow motion invasion and replacement programme for 80 years.

The Ethiopian Jewish population of Israel have many complaints against the way they are treated. 

[Lone Striker]

8 minutes ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

Thousands of years of persecution will do that to you. Not a religious same but we “Scots” are known for immigration to all corners of the world. If someone like Hitler went around picking up Scots wherever they lived and  started a cleansing. Scotland as a country would welcome all who escaped the persecution and then surviving Scots wandering the earth would feel a magnetic pull to Scotland. Or at least know they’ll always have a home if needed. That’s all I got.

I get what you're suggesting in your hypothetical (& extreme) example 👍 ..... but if there was some deranged dictator  seeking out ONLY the descendants of ex-pat Scottish men & women,  its debateable whether surviving descendants would immediately think of  leaving their country and flying back to the country of their ancestors for safety - effectively a foreign country to them -   wouldn't the military & police in their own countries be obliged to protect them as naturalised citizens first ?

 

 

[Sooks]

Just now, The Tackle said:

It’s not genocide, it’s apartheid.

It is both by the definition of genocide , as I provided earlier

[Lone Striker]

7 minutes ago, Tazio said:

The Ethiopian Jewish population of Israel have many complaints against the way they are treated. 

Yes, as do  black Jews in general.    It's almost as if  Israel doesn't see them as "proper" Jews - which is rather ironic considering the history of how European  Jews were  rounded up and murdered during WW2..... i.e. the very persecution which gave rise to Israel itself.

 

Whats that old saying  .......   history tends to repeat itself ?

 

.  

[Lone Striker]

Bloody Hell.       Is this what our Police are now fixated on ?   A wee photo of a hang-glider ?

 

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-appeal-women-pro-palestine-140702398.html

Edited October 15, 2023 by Lone Striker

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Bloody Hell.       Is this what our Police are now fixated on ?   A wee photo of a hang-glider ?

 

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-appeal-women-pro-palestine-140702398.html

More what Braverman has instructed I think.Sure she said this week a Palastinian flag could be deemed ilegal 

[AlphonseCapone]

15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Bloody Hell.       Is this what our Police are now fixated on ?   A wee photo of a hang-glider ?

 

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-appeal-women-pro-palestine-140702398.html

 

Pretty disgusting behaviour tbf.

[Mikey1874]

Some incredible protests. Massive numbers. Morocco, Netherlands for example.

 

 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

I’m not even vaguely worked up.

Israel exists because people hate the Jews .

Were people out burning Palestinians flags or defacing mosques after the Hamas atrocity?

Were there even people on the streets?

Did Islamic schools need protected?

That would be no.

So why so many keen to have a go at Jews , after Israel behaves like a twat?

 

Characterising all anti Zionists as anti Semitic is still very poor form. What are the Jewish anti Zionists?

[Lone Striker]

10 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Pretty disgusting behaviour tbf.

Its a fairly tame symbol though.  A small picture of one mode of transport used by the Hamas invaders last weekend.    You have to actually know the role played by para-gliders.   

 

Whatever next ?  A plane spotter in possession of a photo of a Boeing 747  arrested because the same type of aircraft was used on 9/11  and at Lockerbie ?       Totally absurd, imo

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

no posts on the Ukraine Russian thread since Friday 

 

has there been a lull in the conflict there? possibility of moving to a non-war resolution ?
 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Its a fairly tame symbol though.  A small picture of one mode of transport used by the Hamas invaders last weekend.    You have to actually know the role played by para-gliders.   

 

Whatever next ?  A plane spotter in possession of a photo of a Boeing 747  arrested because the same type of aircraft was used on 9/11  and at Lockerbie ?       Totally absurd, imo

 

 

is it not about context ?
 

didn’t some football fan get hassle for doing a plane impersonation at Claudia Reyna reasonably closely after 9/11 ?
 

 

 

 

 

[Cade]

5 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

no posts on the Ukraine Russian thread since Friday 

 

has there been a lull in the conflict there? possibility of moving to a non-war resolution ?
 

 

 

Nope not at all

[AlphonseCapone]

10 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Its a fairly tame symbol though.  A small picture of one mode of transport used by the Hamas invaders last weekend.    You have to actually know the role played by para-gliders.   

 

Whatever next ?  A plane spotter in possession of a photo of a Boeing 747  arrested because the same type of aircraft was used on 9/11  and at Lockerbie ?       Totally absurd, imo

 

 

 

Those people did know the role though and they were at a pro Palestinian rally, they knew exactly what it symbolised in the context. A completely unnecessary thing to do, regardless of personal views and in that context you're glorifying terrorism. That makes you a piece of shit in my view.

 

The royal you, as in the two in the photo, just be super clear!

Edited October 15, 2023 by AlphonseCapone

[AlphonseCapone]

6 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

is it not about context ?
 

didn’t some football fan get hassle for doing a plane impersonation at Claudia Reyna reasonably closely after 9/11 ?
 

 

 

 

 

 

They did. Context is key.

[Lone Striker]

2 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

is it not about context ?
 

didn’t some football fan get hassle for doing a plane impersonation at Claudia Reyna reasonably closely after 9/11 ?
 

 

 

 

 

Context, yes.   My guess is that the protestors with these photos deliberately used them as a "code" for their support for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza - which was what the protest march was all about.  Probably a needless and daft thing to do admittedly, but it hardly merits a police investigation imo  

 

 Singling out folk because of  a wee photo of a para-glider just seems ridiculous to me.   Especially when compared to the idiot fan(s) who did the plane gesture to Reyna.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

27 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

Nope not at all

 bad news - cheers

[Mikey1874]

The Gaza situation is ripe for air drops.

 

Again presumably people fear Israel and their backers. 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Gaza situation is ripe for air drops.

 

Again presumably people fear Israel and their backers. 

 

Not to mention their missiles and air force

[hughesie27]

On 14/10/2023 at 07:07, hughesie27 said:

Think we will see a shift in messaging soon from the US/UK calling for restraint from IDF soon as they come to realise that they can't keep giving then carte blanched to do what they want.

 

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 

Western governments waking up to the fact their populations will no longer swallow the traditional line of  unwavering support for Israel, no matter what.