Israel and Palestine

[Taffin]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Picture the scenario.  Germany won the battle of Britain and the war in Europe.  They push the English north and settle Germans in their place for years. Would they be happy or would they fight back with limited ways. 

 

🤔

 

I think they'd be expected to just tut and go "tsk, tsk, this sure is darn pickle, guess we'll just have to suck it up, matey"

Edited October 13, 2023 by Taffin

[hughesie27]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Picture the scenario.  Germany won the battle of Britain and the war in Europe.  They push the English north and settle Germans in their place for years. Would they be happy or would they fight back with limited ways. 

 

🤔

Heaven forbid we flew our flag about. 

[Diadora Van Basten]

 

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

 

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

Christianity managed it ? Did they ? I mean I know there was the reformation obviously but are you telling me it sets Christianity apart in terms of how many people have been killed in its name since 

[Boab]

9 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

I think most normal people would agree with you, I certainly do, but, sadly, I can’t see any way back from this. Hezbollah making some disturbing noises, ships in the Med, this could be catastrophic. 
The Russians will be there as well no doubt, keeping an eye on things.

Troubling.

Problem with the UN is, it’s the big guns who call the shots.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Boab

[highlandjambo3]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that both sides are absolutely brutal and care not for the lives of civilians?

There are no good guys here.

Two armies that believe the other side has no right to exist.

And millions of civilians caught up in the middle.

 

 

Tis where I’m at.

[Portable Badger]

6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

While I agree with many of these sentiments the elephant in the room will mean it would not last. 

 

Until Hammas, Hezbollah, etc... remove their '.... wipe the Jews off the face of the earth.' then there will be no trust. All you will get is rinse & repeat sadly - even if a two-state solution were imposed.

[Malinga the Swinga]

7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

It's strange how the religious leaders, the ones who assure the followers that their deaths will be rewarded in afterlife, never actually take part in any of the fighting/wars/acts of terror.

Amazingly, they seem to find themselves miles from where conflict is, often in another country altogether, urging followers to die because a magic man born of a virgin said it was okay to kill the followers of another magic man born of a different virgin.

More amazingly, they find idiots queuing up to do this.

Humans are so ****ing stupid.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

21 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

 

on other threads he’d be called a grifter by the well informed people on here

 

to the more punter-in-the-street types like myself he seems to talk a lot of sense

 

all this is taking the spotlight off Ukraine too with Russia (the unprovoked bad guys) probably taking advantage of the reduced coverage of their potential unprovoked attacks - even the Ukraine-Russian expert correspondents on here have been less attentive lately 

 

bad times and worse to follow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hughesie27]

11 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

It's strange how the religious leaders, the ones who assure the followers that their deaths will be rewarded in afterlife, never actually take part in any of the fighting/wars/acts of terror.

Amazingly, they seem to find themselves miles from where conflict is, often in another country altogether, urging followers to die because a magic man born of a virgin said it was okay to kill the followers of another magic man born of a different virgin.

More amazingly, they find idiots queuing up to do this.

Humans are so ****ing stupid.

100% right. But you've also literally described any army in the world.

Edited October 13, 2023 by hughesie27

[Boab]

15 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

on other threads he’d be called a grifter by the well informed people on here

 

to the more punter-in-the-street types like myself he seems to talk a lot of sense

 

all this is taking the spotlight off Ukraine too with Russia (the unprovoked bad guys) probably taking advantage of the reduced coverage of their potential unprovoked attacks - even the Ukraine-Russian expert correspondents on here have been less attentive lately 

 

bad times and worse to follow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zelensky is well aware of that and requested to visit Israel to offer support. No reply as yet ! Turned up in Brussels to accuse Russia of backing Hamas. Make of all this what you will !

[vegas-voss]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that both sides are absolutely brutal and care not for the lives of civilians?

There are no good guys here.

Two armies that believe the other side has no right to exist.

And millions of civilians caught up in the middle.

 

 

This 

[Sooks]

So glad I ventured back over here . Some names that I had not previously realised were bampots  

[Sooks]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

 

There are no good guys here.

Really ? So the poor subsistence farmers who lived there with ancestry going back for centuries , who were suddenly deemed expendable sub human squatters have done something that makes them bad guys  

[New Town Loafer]

6 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

I suppose you submit to the view that a super rich, nuclear power with a massive military complex like the US didn't have accurate intelligence on 9/11 and just allowed Al-Qaeda to undertake their mission ?

 

Do you honestly believe Netanhayu thought 'Yeah - let them undertake the terrorist mission of rape. indiscriminate slaughter and take hostages so we can go in and wipe out Hamas??''.    That's some conspiracy theory there Taffin.

 

Netanyahu will be toast once this settles down - his first responsibility is to protect the Israeli population and maintain the State  of Israel.  He has failed and he will be ejected from office in due course. 

Theory: Netanyahu was on the brink of losing control of the army because of his corruption, attacking of the courts, possible election rigging, and general potential to lose power, and support from the west. So they allowed the assault to take place.

 

Have a crisis or let one happen. Great way to secure power and control of your armed forces.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

34 minutes ago, Boab said:

Zelensky is well aware of that and requested to visit Israel to offer support. No reply as yet ! Turned up in Brussels to accuse Russia of backing Hamas. Make of all this what you will !

 

clapping that nazi has come back to bite him sooner than could’ve been imagined 

 

 

 

 

[Cade]

20 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Really ? So the poor subsistence farmers who lived there with ancestry going back for centuries , who were suddenly deemed expendable sub human squatters have done something that makes them bad guys  

 

Those would be the innocent civilians.

The "no good guys" was referring to the armed forces of each faction and by extension their political representatives. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Cade

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

 

Those would be the innocent civilians.

The "no good guys" was referring to the armed forces of each faction and by extension their political representatives. 

Okay fair enough . So what about the people that live there and are getting treated like vermin to be exterminated and have no rights or protection ? If they chose to affiliate themselves with a political movement that fights against the occupying power that stole their land , freedom and rights to life from them ? Does that make them bad guys too

 

This is the problem . People are too quick to define these things at the power level . The real travesty in that region is that a bunch of people who had just been happily scratching a living on the land of their forefathers were suddenly relegated to the status of vermin and given no protections befitting human beings

 

The bad guys are people who failed in their duty to ensure the imperialistically exploited lands that they stole were handed back to the occupants

 

The bad guys are the people who sold arms to both sides in the six days war

 

The bad guys are the ones who just decided that a persecuted people should be given the lands of another persecuted people based on a book of fairytales

 

The bad guys are the stormtroopers who murder people in the street based on their ethnicity and beliefs

 

The bad guys are the people who took the land that was stolen for them to live on

 

The bad guys are the people who took the fight for freedom to the point of murdering civilians

 

I would say the ***** who did nothing other than till the land that was stolen off them are quite easily and accurately described as good guys in all of this

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hughesie27]

You'd think 40 beheaded babies would be very easy to prove.

 

 

[stevie]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

It's not easy disagreeing with someone who's already changed their mind.

Brilliant,I might make this my signature.

Im mostly staying away from this thread as the subject is impossible!

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, New Town Loafer said:

Theory: Netanyahu was on the brink of losing control of the army because of his corruption, attacking of the courts, possible election rigging, and general potential to lose power, and support from the west. So they allowed the assault to take place.

 

Have a crisis or let one happen. Great way to secure power and control of your armed forces.

Netanyahu is out of office and done for good once this is over. He's the man who let it happen and he will never get past that.

Doesn't matter what happens from now on, he's toast 

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

It honestly breaks my heart on both sides .

As I have said , religion needs a reformation .

Christianity managed it .

Islam and Zionist Judaism needs the same.

This hate is killing children.

Fighting over bits of sand.

Honestly.

We need anUN with teeth to go in, build homes and schools and hospitals.

Get the security council abolished and get something done before this gets any worse.

 

Would anti-semitism end if there was peace in that one particular spot on earth? I’m all for it but humans can be quite scummy sometimes. Another group would just come along and start it up all over again. No one posting on here will see peace in their lifetime. Unless Iran implodes. 

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

1 hour ago, New Town Loafer said:

Theory: Netanyahu was on the brink of losing control of the army because of his corruption, attacking of the courts, possible election rigging, and general potential to lose power, and support from the west. So they allowed the assault to take place.

 

Have a crisis or let one happen. Great way to secure power and control of your armed forces.

And the whole LA Police department was in on the OJ Simpson set up.

Lord, any lord. Give me strength.

[Spellczech]

3 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

And what most people in the UK do not realise is that EVERY Jewish school across the UK have permanently assigned armed protection guards because of the daily threats and anti-semitism. They have had for decades. Not just during periods of high tension like now BUT every day.

 

People would be screaming the house down if that was the state of affairs were it the same case for schools of other religions.

 

Imagine that at your school - armed guards to protect you 

In the UK, I would question whether they should have Jewish or any other religious school first and foremost TBH... Religious schooling will not help the cause of tolerance.  I say this as someone who was schooled in Glasgow.

[Spellczech]

36 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Netanyahu is out of office and done for good once this is over. He's the man who let it happen and he will never get past that.

Doesn't matter what happens from now on, he's toast 

But same as Putin he knows he only has so long to create a legacy...

[Spellczech]

1 hour ago, Sooks said:

Okay fair enough . So what about the people that live there and are getting treated like vermin to be exterminated and have no rights or protection ? If they chose to affiliate themselves with a political movement that fights against the occupying power that stole their land , freedom and rights to life from them ? Does that make them bad guys too

 

This is the problem . People are too quick to define these things at the power level . The real travesty in that region is that a bunch of people who had just been happily scratching a living on the land of their forefathers were suddenly relegated to the status of vermin and given no protections befitting human beings

 

The bad guys are people who failed in their duty to ensure the imperialistically exploited lands that they stole were handed back to the occupants

 

The bad guys are the people who sold arms to both sides in the six days war

 

The bad guys are the ones who just decided that a persecuted people should be given the lands of another persecuted people based on a book of fairytales

 

The bad guys are the stormtroopers who murder people in the street based on their ethnicity and beliefs

 

The bad guys are the people who took the land that was stolen for them to live on

 

The bad guys are the people who took the fight for freedom to the point of murdering civilians

 

I would say the ***** who did nothing other than till the land that was stolen off them are quite easily and accurately described as good guys in all of this

 

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone managed to sell weapons to either side during the 6 days war then they mustve had some seriously efficient logistics for that time...

[stevie]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Picture the scenario.  Germany won the battle of Britain and the war in Europe.  They push the English north and settle Germans in their place for years. Would they be happy or would they fight back with limited ways. 

 

🤔

You’d be better keeping out of this before you embarrass your self even more Aussie.

 

[Portable Badger]

2 hours ago, New Town Loafer said:

Theory: Netanyahu was on the brink of losing control of the army because of his corruption, attacking of the courts, possible election rigging, and general potential to lose power, and support from the west. So they allowed the assault to take place.

 

Have a crisis or let one happen. Great way to secure power and control of your armed forces.

Quite the opposite - he will never be forgiven by the population for not protecting it and threatening the State of Israel. He will he kicked out of power as soon as it is expedient to. He had nothing to gain from your theory as you don’t understand the psyche.

[Dagger Is Back]

25 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

In the UK, I would question whether they should have Jewish or any other religious school first and foremost TBH... Religious schooling will not help the cause of tolerance.  I say this as someone who was schooled in Glasgow.

Couldn't agree more. Absolutely no need  to have schools based on religion and no positive impact either.
 

They're utterly divisive. 

[Portable Badger]

32 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

In the UK, I would question whether they should have Jewish or any other religious school first and foremost TBH... Religious schooling will not help the cause of tolerance.  I say this as someone who was schooled in Glasgow.

I have some sympathy with your point but in my experience integrated state schools does not prevent anti-semitism/racism at school.

[Jeffros Furios]

31 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Everyone having a good International Day of Jihad, then?

Not today , Gorgie Jihad have laid down thier arms in protest ! 

[Portable Badger]

8 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

Couldn't agree more. Absolutely no need  to have schools based on religion and no positive impact either.
 

They're utterly divisive. 

They’re not just religious institutions though - they are cultural as well.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

16 minutes ago, Portable Badger said:

I have some sympathy with your point but in my experience integrated state schools does not prevent anti-semitism/racism at school.

Sure doesn’t 

[Sooks]

50 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

If anyone managed to sell weapons to either side during the 6 days war then they mustve had some seriously efficient logistics for that time...

We had literally just vacated the place and had plenty in the locale 

[hughesie27]

 

[Spellczech]

12 minutes ago, Sooks said:

We had literally just vacated the place and had plenty in the locale 

? We left in 1948. The 6 Days War was in 1967...

 

We conquered Palestine in 1917 from the Ottomans as part of WW1. We never wanted it as part of "empire"... we sought help from the UN to try to get rid of it and along the way had to deal with both and Arab insurgency in the 30s and a Jewish one in the 40s. The Jews claimed a chunk of it from the UN in 48, and the first Arab-Israeli war started the next day.  The war you are talking about was the 3rd... almost 20 years later.  The second 2 were about Egypt closing Suez to Israel.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Spellczech

[Sooks]

7 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

? We left in 1948. The 6 Days War was in 1967...

Beginning of the Palestine war , apologies 

[Portable Badger]

14 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 

The Unity Govt will be working the US to convince Egypt to open their border to allow easy evacuation of civilians. They have no desire to cause unnecessary injury/death to civilians. They want to expose Hamas but Hamas will resist/obstruct any civilian exodus

 

Women, children, elderly and injured first.  Then screened males  thus leaving only Hamas and those intent on fighting to remain. 

That's when it'll be like ferreting in the underground tunnels as the army moves in.

[XB52]

Just now, Portable Badger said:

The Unity Govt will be working the US to convince Egypt to open their border to allow easy evacuation of civilians. They have no desire to cause unnecessary injury/death to civilians. They want to expose Hamas but Hamas will resist/obstruct any civilian exodus

 

Women, children, elderly and injured first.  Then screened males  thus leaving only Hamas and those intent on fighting to remain. 

That's when it'll be like ferreting in the underground tunnels as the army moves in.

And then Israel closes the border and, hey presto, another part of Palestine is now part of Greater Israel

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, Portable Badger said:

The Unity Govt will be working the US to convince Egypt to open their border to allow easy evacuation of civilians. They have no desire to cause unnecessary injury/death to civilians. They want to expose Hamas but Hamas will resist/obstruct any civilian exodus

 

Women, children, elderly and injured first.  Then screened males  thus leaving only Hamas and those intent on fighting to remain. 

That's when it'll be like ferreting in the underground tunnels as the army moves in.

Gaza is being cleared out. This is clearly what Israel and Blinken cooked up yesterday. Israel will talk tough, US will act as reasonable mediator. Israel will get Gaza.

 

Hamas brought this upon themselves though. Anyone who leads a country cannot afford for terrorists to succeed... anywhere. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Spellczech

[Tazio]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Gaza is being cleared out. This is clearly what Israel and Blinken cooked up yesterday. Israel will talk tough, US will act as reasonable mediator. Israel will get Gaza.

Gaza itself is of no value to them. A barren water free tract of land that offers little. What they do want is a Gaza free of the problems it presents with the current populace. 

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Gaza itself is of no value to them. A barren water free tract of land that offers little. What they do want is a Gaza free of the problems it presents with the current populace. 

True, they already don't let the Palestinians fish more than a couple of miles offshore, and there are no fish left near the coast now.

 

Have you seen the Israelis industrial desalination technology? Quite impressive.  They will get that area going...

 

It is in their interest that the populace not to go to the west bank though,  and become Eqypt's problem....

Edited October 13, 2023 by Spellczech

[Sooks]

Its ****ing disgusting and it is to the worlds shame that it is just being allowed to happen 

[Homme]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Its ****ing disgusting and it is to the worlds shame that it is just being allowed to happen 

 

Absolutely.

 

I feel so uneasy our Gov (in our name) are backing Israel to the extent they are when you see what's happening in Gaza as retaliation. 

 

We've spent the last 18 months condemning the exact same actions from Russia.

 

I get Israel has to defend itself against terrorism and rightly so. This just doesn't sit right.

[New Town Loafer]

Starting to think my aforementioned theory lacks support.

[Portable Badger]

25 minutes ago, XB52 said:

And then Israel closes the border and, hey presto, another part of Palestine is now part of Greater Israel

Not a chance imho.  Don't believe that is the Govt's objective & Internationally it would not be accepted. 

[Japan Jambo]

3 hours ago, Boab said:

Zelensky is well aware of that and requested to visit Israel to offer support. No reply as yet ! Turned up in Brussels to accuse Russia of backing Hamas. Make of all this what you will !

 

US is struggling to replenish stocks of armaments as is, no question this will be a boon for Russia as Ukraine will have to get in line for seconds now.

[Dagger Is Back]

5 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

One might cynically suggest that the perpetuation of such division is of benefit to many of the stakeholders in religious institutions. Once you remove the ‘bogeyman’ that is the ‘other’, preachers and leaders have less sway over their respective flocks. 

Indeed so Jim. Without fear there is at best, diminished control.

 

Desperately sad

 

 

[XB52]

9 minutes ago, Portable Badger said:

Not a chance imho.  Don't believe that is the Govt's objective & Internationally it would not be accepted. 

They accepted it in 67 and 73 and the 50 years since so why should this be any different