Israel and Palestine

[Spellczech]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

How come the US can send a full battle group of ships, including the worlds biggest aircraft carrier to support a non NATO ally (Israel), but the same battle group, stationed in the same region couldn’t be deployed in the Black Sea to support another non NATO ally (Ukraine)

LOL Not sure sending a US Battle Group through the Bosphorous into the Black Sea would be a very good idea..

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Ukraine isn't in NATO

Neither is Israel (which was my point)

[Boab]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

I actually find it more troubling that we may have sent military aid to a country that a) Doesn't need it at the moment b) is bombing a city pretty indiscriminately whilst the residents have nowhere to flee to...This makes all of us complicit in what it happening. 

 

I have no wish to side with either lot.

Totally agree. My sentiments exactly. 

 

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Neither is Israel (which was my point)

 

Yeah

 

But the US security arrangement with Israel is basically the same as being in NATO 

 

Something similar for Ukraine has been discussed

Edited October 13, 2023 by Mikey1874

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

LOL Not sure sending a US Battle Group through the Bosphorous into the Black Sea would be a very good idea..

 

right? I forsee no problems sailing multi billions of military tech through the middle of Istanbul, they'll probably offer an apple tea on the way past

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Because one risks nuclear war and one is a bit of power projection towards Iran. 

 

Come on now. 

Deterrent. It’s all about deterrent. You’d think deterring a nuclear power would be higher priority than deterring a bunch of rag tag murderers and a non nuclear rogue state who have no intention of invading Israel

[Spellczech]

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

right? I forsee no problems sailing multi billions of military tech through the middle of Istanbul, they'll probably offer an apple tea on the way past

If they do then just take the tea and run. Because if you buy anything, the price on the shelf may be low but the price that the old man shouts across to the young man on the till will not be...😁

[JimmyCant]

10 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

LOL Not sure sending a US Battle Group through the Bosphorous into the Black Sea would be a very good idea..

Turkey is a NATO member

[Boab]

35 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

War and international law... - has there ever been such a load of nonsense spouted? War is the result of societal rules failing and law is simply what is meant to back up societal rules...The idea of there being laws about war is the biggest load of tosh ever spouted by lawyers and politicians...

 

If you are the sort of person who would decapitate a baby then a law or even an order from a superior is unlikely to stop you. Jeez, lawyers are so up themselves thinking they can control things in a warzone...It's a nonsense. International Law is no longer applicable until the fighting is over. It is not even worth discussing...

I agree that the UN is a waste of time when it comes to issuing resolutions. 
In this particular theatre, they are just ignored with the use of veto. 
Handy when needed to go in to places like Iraq of course. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Deterrent. It’s all about deterrent. You’d think deterring a nuclear power would be higher priority than deterring a bunch of rag tag murderers and a non nuclear rogue state who have no intention of invading Israel

 

I think if the US Navy were rolling en masse into the Black Sea it would be seen as more than mere deterrent at this point in time. You'd be risking nuclear war. 

[Spellczech]

4 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Turkey is a NATO member

Doesn't mean they have to let the USA sail through their waters. Also the Black Sea is a dead end. There is no way that fleet would be coming back...HMS Queen Elizabeth got buzzed by the Russians just for sailing towards the Suez Canal (in peacetime)

Edited October 13, 2023 by Spellczech

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

If they do then just take the tea and run. Because if you buy anything, the price on the shelf may be low but the price that the old man shouts across to the young man on the till will not be...😁

And I've got Abibas flip flops written on my forehead

 

Imagine what could be waiting for an unwanted fleet that has to go through that choke point though, that's geopolitical stupidity 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

It’s not really a plan.

they are going in , all in.

They are going to go all out to destroy Hamas and send a message .

They are about to unleash hell.

Anyone in the way will suffer.

Get out of the way, or don’t .

Israel are going in, 

Syria have been warned to stay out ( airports bombed .)

This is going to be the worst thing we have seen for a long time.

 

Yes it is. It's a genocide and our representatives are sanctioning if not encouraging it.

 

2 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

That's not true, there is consensus that Israel has the right to defend itself but in doing so also needs to respect the rules of war. It's you that is conflating that position with free reign to kill Palestinians.

 

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

My point was calling bollocks with regard to the assertion that the UK government and His Majesties loyal opposition have given free reign to kill Palestinians. They haven't and both will undoubtedly call out war crimes when they undoubtedly do occur. No doubt any statements they do make will be ineffectual and deemed to be insufficient. The reality is there is very little that can be done from here to fix this horrible mess.

 

With respect, Sunak said Israel has an 'absolute right' to defend itself. It doesn't.It has the same rights afforded to every other country.

 

Keith, the man who would be king, a Lawyer no less, doesn't appear to understand International law and collective responsibility. 

 

Neither will call out anything of the sort. If you think they will then i'm afraid you're deluded. 

[ri Alban]

China or Russia should give Iran some Nukes. 

[Boab]

Aw naw !

🫣

[AlphonseCapone]

23 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

How come the US can send a full battle group of ships, including the worlds biggest aircraft carrier to support a non NATO ally (Israel), but the same battle group, stationed in the same region couldn’t be deployed in the Black Sea to support another non NATO ally (Ukraine)

 

The USA has a long standing policy related to the defence of Israel. They didn't really give a shit about Ukraine until Russia invaded.

[The Mighty Thor]

For context Israel have dropped around 6,000 super smart, only kills terrorists, definitely not indiscriminate bombs since Sunday.

Over 4,500 tons of high explosive into an area around 140 sq miles.

 

I think these were the ones without the 'get out' leaflets. 

[Spellczech]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Yes it is. It's a genocide and our representatives are sanctioning if not encouraging it.

 

 

 

With respect, Sunak said Israel has an 'absolute right' to defend itself. It doesn't.It has the same rights afforded to every other country.

 

Keith, the man who would be king, a Lawyer no less, doesn't appear to understand International law and collective responsibility. 

 

Neither will call out anything of the sort. If you think they will then i'm afraid you're deluded. 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about International Law to know that it is a politicians' toy, a nonsense.

 

I remember having a course in it at Edinburgh Uni in 1992-3. Ironically the lecturer was one of the World's top International lawyers at the time, and an Arab. Only problem was that his lecturing style was a monotone in pidgeon English that none of us could understand. There were so many complaints...When it came to exam time I think they just passed us all no matter what we puked onto the exam paper!

[Jambo4050]

French teacher murdered this morning by a man screaming ‘Aluh Akbar’ 

 

today is Friday 13th which was the day Hamas called for a ‘global jihad’

 

Something has to give soon..

[doctor jambo]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

For context Israel have dropped around 6,000 super smart, only kills terrorists, definitely not indiscriminate bombs since Sunday.

Over 4,500 tons of high explosive into an area around 140 sq miles.

 

I think these were the ones without the 'get out' leaflets. 

Well, it was all entirely predictable.

What Hamas wanted was to bring out all the Islamic morons across the globe, and the Jewish morons too.

Not sure that a few burnt flags and Jews being spat on is worth the deaths of maybe 10000 Palestinians in the coming weeks.

after that , Israel will still exist, zionists will be stronger , and the sand in Gaza will be better fertilised and nothing else will have changed

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I suspect Starmer understands enough about International Law to know that it is a politicians' toy, a nonsense.

 

I remember having a course in it at Edinburgh Uni in 1992-3. Ironically the lecturer was one of the World's top International lawyers at the time, and an Arab. Only problem was that his lecturing style was a monotone in pidgeon English that none of us could understand. There were so many complaints...When it came to exam time I think they just passed us all no matter what we puked onto the exam paper!

 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about where his bread is buttered. 

 

Meanwhile a proper statesman, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar calls out Israel for breaking international law.

 

The Irish obviously aren't that arsed about blowing smoke uo Uncle Sam's hoop.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Boab said:

I take that point and agree. My point is there will be no prosecution. History has proven that.

 

👍 For sure.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Well, it was all entirely predictable.

What Hamas wanted was to bring out all the Islamic morons across the globe, and the Jewish morons too.

Not sure that a few burnt flags and Jews being spat on is worth the deaths of maybe 10000 Palestinians in the coming weeks.

after that , Israel will still exist, zionists will be stronger , and the sand in Gaza will be better fertilised and nothing else will have changed

It could be argued that Netanyahu wanted it too, if the Egyptian warnings are to be believed.

 

Great excuse for him to let loose his Zionist morons both in and out of uniform and as you say fertilise the sands with Palestinians whilst the Western politicians clap along. 

 

What a time to be alive.

[Spellczech]

1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

Well, it was all entirely predictable.

What Hamas wanted was to bring out all the Islamic morons across the globe, and the Jewish morons too.

Not sure that a few burnt flags and Jews being spat on is worth the deaths of maybe 10000 Palestinians in the coming weeks.

after that , Israel will still exist, zionists will be stronger , and the sand in Gaza will be better fertilised and nothing else will have changed

They are just doing what terrorists do - trying to light the touch paper. These guys want the World to burn, and whilst the ultranationalists and Jewish zealots have a big say Israeli poltics, they have a chance of doing just that...

 

The leaders may call on the stupid to sacrifice themselves as martyrs but I can guarantee they won't be leading from the front...They are good at building tunnels but not bomb shelters apparently...

[Boab]

6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Well, it was all entirely predictable.

What Hamas wanted was to bring out all the Islamic morons across the globe, and the Jewish morons too.

Not sure that a few burnt flags and Jews being spat on is worth the deaths of maybe 10000 Palestinians in the coming weeks.

after that , Israel will still exist, zionists will be stronger , and the sand in Gaza will be better fertilised and nothing else will have changed

It will be a lot worse than spitting. Has already started in France. 

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about where his bread is buttered. 

 

Meanwhile a proper statesman, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar calls out Israel for breaking international law.

 

The Irish obviously aren't that arsed about blowing smoke uo Uncle Sam's hoop.

Well the Irish aren't big on condemning terrorism unless it is state-sponsored TBH...I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "proper statesman" though. Just another mouthpiece sticking his oar in...

[Mikey1874]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about where his bread is buttered. 

 

Meanwhile a proper statesman, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar calls out Israel for breaking international law.

 

The Irish obviously aren't that arsed about blowing smoke uo Uncle Sam's hoop.

 

Just now, Spellczech said:

Well the Irish aren't big on condemning terrorism unless it is state-sponsored TBH...I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "proper statesman" though. Just another mouthpiece sticking his oar in...

 

The Irish don't have a great reputation for supporting Jews. 

[Spellczech]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

The Irish don't have a great reputation for supporting Jews. 

All politicians are self-seeking erseholes when it comes to foreign policy. Check out Humza, keeping remarkably quiet whilst wondering if the UK Government can rescue his in-laws....

[doctor jambo]

17 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about where his bread is buttered. 

 

Meanwhile a proper statesman, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar calls out Israel for breaking international law.

 

The Irish obviously aren't that arsed about blowing smoke uo Uncle Sam's hoop.

Or turning a blind eye and harbouring “freedom fighters” who blow up markets and kill kids within its own borders

[JudyJudyJudy]

[AlphonseCapone]

25 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I suspect Starmer understands enough about where his bread is buttered. 

 

Meanwhile a proper statesman, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar calls out Israel for breaking international law.

 

The Irish obviously aren't that arsed about blowing smoke uo Uncle Sam's hoop.

 

Sorry man but it doesn't matter what Leo says on this topic, he isn't and never will be a proper statesmen. The guy got in on the 5th count, barely made it in as a TD and ends up Taoiseach again. He's a joke.

[Cruyff]

I can totally understand Israel's feeling on this. If Hamas did this to us, I'd want Gaza wiped off the map as well. Completely understandable. 

 

However, Israel is meant to be and see's itself as part of the International Community where Countries follow the rule of law and try not to kill civilians under any circumstances. That's what separates them from Hamas.

 

If they want to act like Hamas then, they should be cut loose and if Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc.. gang up on them, **** them, they've made their bed and should be left to fend for themselves if they cannot respect international law.🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Very difficult to find an ounce of sympathy for either of them tbh. They are the ones that keep repeating this cycle of violence. 

[Japan Jambo]

24 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Yes it is. It's a genocide and our representatives are sanctioning if not encouraging it.

 

 

 

With respect, Sunak said Israel has an 'absolute right' to defend itself. It doesn't.It has the same rights afforded to every other country.

 

Keith, the man who would be king, a Lawyer no less, doesn't appear to understand International law and collective responsibility. 

 

Neither will call out anything of the sort. If you think they will then i'm afraid you're deluded. 

 

I literally covered that in the next sentence. 

 

No doubt any statements they do make will be ineffectual and deemed to be insufficient.

 

I suspect though that given your leanings there is nothing they would say that would please you.

 

As for your genocide comment that is loaded language and also nonsense. Their response is robust and I'd agree over the top but if it was genocide they were after they could level the place at the push of a button. There is more nuance to this than you are prepared to credit.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

 

8 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Or turning a blind eye and harbouring “freedom fighters” who blow up markets and kill kids within its own borders

Quite.

 

Perhaps we shouldn't have bothered with the Good Friday Agreement and just dropped 6000 bombs on Dublin in 6 days?

[vegas-voss]

3 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

That'll be better for them than what'll happen if they manage to cross the border.

True

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Japan Jambo said:

 

I literally covered that in the next sentence. 

 

No doubt any statements they do make will be ineffectual and deemed to be insufficient.

 

I suspect though that given your leanings there is nothing they would say that would please you.

 

As for your genocide comment that is loaded language and also nonsense. Their response is robust and I'd agree over the top but if it was genocide they were after they could level the place at the push of a button. There is more nuance to this than you are prepared to credit.

 

Apologies i missed that follow up sentence.

 

My leanings are that Saturday's attacks were abhorrent. The response of dropping bombs on civilians is equally abhorrent. A key part of international law on a nations self defence is 'proportionality'. There is none here. There's also little nuance on telling 1.1m people to displace within 24 hours or be vapourised, at the push of a button. 

[Spellczech]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Pity they didn't have memes in the late 1940s huh?

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Quite.

 

Perhaps we shouldn't have bothered with the Good Friday Agreement and just dropped 6000 bombs on Dublin in 6 days?

Sounds like the anti-creationalist approach? Would we have rested on the 7th day?

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

What? The headline is about the release of photos that the Telegraph is reportedly publishing. The imagine clearly doesn't show babies and is related more broadly to the story in general. 

 

 

Exactly. Because those images are not fit for circulation from the mainstream.

 

Really not sure what's difficult to understand, unless you're looking for stuff that's not there...🤔

[Japan Jambo]

23 minutes ago, Boab said:

It will be a lot worse than spitting. Has already started in France. 

 

Cabbie was telling me this morning that he had a couple of Orthodox Jews in the cab on Wednesday and because of roadworks he wanted to drop them round the corner from their destination - apparently they begged him to be dropped right outside the door as they were terrified to walk the street. Similarly I have a colleague that has three kids in a Jewish school in north London (one that is not shut today) and he's arguing with his wife as she is ready to take the kids out of school and go into lockdown.

 

Not hearing similar storied about Palestinians in London being targeted - there is an obvious asymmetry here. 

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Apologies i missed that follow up sentence.

 

My leanings are that Saturday's attacks were abhorrent. The response of dropping bombs on civilians is equally abhorrent. A key part of international law on a nations self defence is 'proportionality'. There is none here. There's also little nuance on telling 1.1m people to displace within 24 hours or be vapourised, at the push of a button. 

The question is what is proportional?

over a thousand of your people are killed , raped, beheaded and kidnapped in your country , you know who did it and where they are.

What is reasonable .

What is collective responsibility?

What would you do if you were in power in Israel?

Is your daughter was raped, killed and paraded on a truck for people to spit on, what would you do?

In know what I would do,  and in that moment , Gaza would burn

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

War and international law... - has there ever been such a load of nonsense spouted? War is the result of societal rules failing and law is simply what is meant to back up societal rules...The idea of there being laws about war is the biggest load of tosh ever spouted by lawyers and politicians...

 

If you are the sort of person who would decapitate a baby then a law or even an order from a superior is unlikely to stop you. Jeez, lawyers are so up themselves thinking they can control things in a warzone...It's a nonsense. International Law is no longer applicable until the fighting is over. It is not even worth discussing...

 

100%. I struggle to understand why people are outraged that Isreal have stopped providing its enemies with supplies. It's a basic military tactic that's been used since wars began!

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I se a few Jewish schools in London are closed today and others on alert as they fear a backlash from protesters, it makes me angry that people in relative safety and comfort, thousands of miles from the region can't see the bigger picture and that they need to stand together and call for peace. People in London and in Europe don't have the guns of Hamas pointed at them and can speak the truth about  Hamas as well as the misery living in Gaza is.

 

Waving Palestinian flags just makes you look like a supporter of terrorism, get the flags to **** and call for peace

 

Ripping down posters of missing children yesterday. Some seriously ****ed up people living in our country.

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The question is what is proportional?

over a thousand of your people are killed , raped, beheaded and kidnapped in your country , you know who did it and where they are.

What is reasonable .

What is collective responsibility?

What would you do if you were in power in Israel?

Is your daughter was raped, killed and paraded on a truck for people to spit on, what would you do?

In know what I would do,  and in that moment , Gaza would burn

Most people would do exactly the same. Not all though. Some on here would instantly forgive the perpetrators and take the guilt onto themselves, because, well because they have never been in the situation, most likely never will be, and just like to act morally superior. In fact, it is exactly the syndrome that Green Brigade members have.

[Spellczech]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Cabbie was telling me this morning that he had a couple of Orthodox Jews in the cab on Wednesday and because of roadworks he wanted to drop them round the corner from their destination - apparently they begged him to be dropped right outside the door as they were terrified to walk the street. Similarly I have a colleague that has three kids in a Jewish school in north London (one that is not shut today) and he's arguing with his wife as she is ready to take the kids out of school and go into lockdown.

 

Not hearing similar storied about Palestinians in London being targeted - there is an obvious asymmetry here. 

I never understand why we have any super-religious people here TBH. Why do Orthodox Jews choose here rather than Israel if they feel unsafe? We are, to all extents, a secular country but we seem to tolerate regious extremism to the point that it turns violent - where is the sense in that? I think we should just ban religion for over-5s and be done with it. Let the kids learn the stories that provide basic moral grounding and then cease. If I'm being too harsh then maybe even stretch it to having religious schools at primary level only?

[I P Knightley]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

@I P Knightley

 

This might be a post that answers your questions a bit. 

 

The Geneva Convention doesn't just explicitly say - no sieges and no civilian casualties. There's aspects such as proportionality to take into account.

 

Found this too which explains it reasonably well. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-war-crimes-laws-apply-israel-palestinian-conflict-2023-10-11/

 

 

Cheers. 

 

I mean, though, War!!

 

Good God!

 

What is it good for? 

[Malinga the Swinga]

8 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Cabbie was telling me this morning that he had a couple of Orthodox Jews in the cab on Wednesday and because of roadworks he wanted to drop them round the corner from their destination - apparently they begged him to be dropped right outside the door as they were terrified to walk the street. Similarly I have a colleague that has three kids in a Jewish school in north London (one that is not shut today) and he's arguing with his wife as she is ready to take the kids out of school and go into lockdown.

 

Not hearing similar storied about Palestinians in London being targeted - there is an obvious asymmetry here. 

It's only a hate crime if Muslim attacked, Jews are fair game according to the appeasers on here. I'm not even sure if they are deliberately being obtuse or really are as stupid as their comments.

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

I never understand why we have any super-religious people here TBH. Why do Orthodox Jews choose here rather than Israel if they feel unsafe? We are, to all extents, a secular country but we seem to tolerate regious extremism to the point that it turns violent - where is the sense in that? I think we should just ban religion for over-5s and be done with it. Let the kids learn the stories that provide basic moral grounding and then cease. If I'm being too harsh then maybe even stretch it to having religious schools at primary level only?

The kids school sent an email last night to discourage us from discussing it, as seemingly there has been some issues at the school.

it has a heady mix of Jewish and a of Muslim kids there, what with it being the alma mater of our first minister and labour leader .

It kind of brings out the home attitudes of people , does it not ?

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The question is what is proportional?

over a thousand of your people are killed , raped, beheaded and kidnapped in your country , you know who did it and where they are.

What is reasonable .

What is collective responsibility?

What would you do if you were in power in Israel?

Is your daughter was raped, killed and paraded on a truck for people to spit on, what would you do?

In know what I would do,  and in that moment , Gaza would burn

A lot of questions.

 

Proportionality for me rests on what is a legitimate target. Palestinian kids or Hamas fighters? 

 

There's been well over a thousand Palestinian deaths too. Vapourised in an instant whilst sitting in their houses. 497 kids too. 

 

What is reasonable? depends on how reasonable a person you are. Netanyahu seems quite a stable sort. 

 

Collective responsibility in this case would be turning off the water, power and food to the Palestinian peoples. The vast majority of whom are not Hamas terrorists.

 

Your final three points - I'd want to track down those responsible and oput their heads on a stick. That is human nature. 

But that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is the guy that raped your daughter lives in Fife and you're currently levelling all of Fife for 6 days before you then send in your ground troops to kill whoever hasn't left Fife.

 

Is that proportionate? 

[I P Knightley]

7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The question is what is proportional?

over a thousand of your people are killed , raped, beheaded and kidnapped in your country , you know who did it and where they are.

What is reasonable .

What is collective responsibility?

What would you do if you were in power in Israel?

Is your daughter was raped, killed and paraded on a truck for people to spit on, what would you do?

In know what I would do,  and in that moment , Gaza would burn

I fully understand the emotion, Doc. 

 

But if my next door neighbour were to go and pick a fight with everyone in the next street and come back to hide in my garden, I'd hope that the folk in the next street didn't batter me to a pulp when looking for my neighbour. 

 

Again, more of my ignorance but I don't know whether your typical resident of Gaza has a voice and if they're able to express disgust at what Hamas are doing, purportedly in their name.