Sporting Director ( merged )

[henrysmithsgloves]

2 minutes ago, colinmorewasgash said:

Maybe im old now but what was he expecting folk to be like. Its football club and not everyone will like you and I agree personal abuse isnt nice however, feels to me a bit deflecting of his recent signings. If hes not happy in his very well paid job then get proper one and leave. For record im fat old 55 crippled knees, worked for courts, bankruptcy,and taxman so ive had loads of personal abuse face to face, worse than being called fat and bald, physical and mental violence, even threatened with life by gangsters in my jobs, luckily still here, have hair mind and handled it and have been called lots in 50 odd years in life and watching us also has got me abuse, maybe I just have thick skin and get on with it or its how I was brought up. I also sympathise with people with mental health probs etc hve daughter who does and other works for mental health, just think he is playing victim card a bit cause of one idiot slating him.

You've had personal abuse which is not on,but having been the recipient, would you actually shout verbal insults ?

[1971fozzy]

30 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I firmly believe we have some of the worst fans on the planet interspersed with some of the best

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/joe-savage-responds-hearts-personal-31216637

👍 100%

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

Constructive criticism is absolutely fine in my opinion but personal abuse isn't

[boag1874]

8 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Which recent signings are so bad they need deflecting 

I actually think looking back at it it was a very good window tbh, Lowry, Vargas, Kent & Hoff all look like quality additions with Tagawa still to slot in when he's ready & still plenty time for Offiah to come onto a game

[Sooks]

Just now, boag1874 said:

I actually think looking back at it it was a very good window tbh, Lowry, Vargas, Kent & Hoff all look like quality additions with Tagawa still to slot in when he's ready & still plenty time for Offiah to come onto a game

Indeed 

[Fxxx the SPFL]

personal abuse is a pretty poor show, anyone recall a bar stool being launched at a certain Hearts Chairman up in Dingwall. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Fxxx the SPFL

[JamboAl]

Reading what Savage has said etc I wonder if we even need a Sporting Director.  Firstly it is not clear about the pecking order eg is the Head Coach subservient to the SD or is he the lackey to (reasonably) get what the HC wants?

Secondly, even if we do need a SD, surely someone in that position must expect and be able to withstand criticism, realising that some of that, based on performance, is justified while some will come from the brain challenged.  That will happen to anyone in a senior position anywhere inside or outside of football and if you seriously let it get to you, you're in the wrong job.

It might be currently unfashionable but maybe we should consider returning to the old style Manager and Chief Scout set-up where the lines were a lot less blurred.  It might also save money which could be better spent on the playing field.  The relatively little money we have to work with poses the question whether it is wise to expend part of it on the roles of Brown (now gone?) and Lancefield.

[jamboinglasgow]

3 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

I actually think looking back at it it was a very good window tbh, Lowry, Vargas, Kent & Hoff all look like quality additions with Tagawa still to slot in when he's ready & still plenty time for Offiah to come onto a game

 

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think they are taking their time to bed in (which would have been expected by the clubs) but some fans want an instant impact (which is understandable but can often be unlikely.)

 

As for the abuse, I think football suffers from an old school mentality. Where the attitude is abuse happens, grow a thick skin and get over it. Where saying that the abuse gets to you is seen as a sign of weakness because it means that opposition fans can get at you (watching the Beckham documentary, and they are talking about the chant about Victoria Beckham that went round the grounds, how it horrified David and Victoria, but you couldn't come out at the time to say so as the fans would just do it more to wind them up.)

[davemclaren]

19 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Reading what Savage has said etc I wonder if we even need a Sporting Director.  Firstly it is not clear about the pecking order eg is the Head Coach subservient to the SD or is he the lackey to (reasonably) get what the HC wants?

Secondly, even if we do need a SD, surely someone in that position must expect and be able to withstand criticism, realising that some of that, based on performance, is justified while some will come from the brain challenged.  That will happen to anyone in a senior position anywhere inside or outside of football and if you seriously let it get to you, you're in the wrong job.

It might be currently unfashionable but maybe we should consider returning to the old style Manager and Chief Scout set-up where the lines were a lot less blurred.  It might also save money which could be better spent on the playing field.  The relatively little money we have to work with poses the question whether it is wise to expend part of it on the roles of Brown (now gone?) and Lancefield.

His job is much more than just recruitment. 

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think they are taking their time to bed in (which would have been expected by the clubs) but some fans want an instant impact (which is understandable but can often be unlikely.)

 

As for the abuse, I think football suffers from an old school mentality. Where the attitude is abuse happens, grow a thick skin and get over it. Where saying that the abuse gets to you is seen as a sign of weakness because it means that opposition fans can get at you (watching the Beckham documentary, and they are talking about the chant about Victoria Beckham that went round the grounds, how it horrified David and Victoria, but you couldn't come out at the time to say so as the fans would just do it more to wind them up.)

'Old school' is very polite. 🥸

[Jamdub]

2 hours ago, boag1874 said:

I actually think looking back at it it was a very good window tbh, Lowry, Vargas, Kent & Hoff all look like quality additions with Tagawa still to slot in when he's ready & still plenty time for Offiah to come onto a game

[Prehen]

I thought the Savage article was great, and needed to be said. No one should come to work and get abuse. Why football fans think it is fine on a Saturday in or around the ground is just beyond me. As he says in the full article to Hearts Standard, many of the same people who say personal WellBeing is important are the same people who hurl personal vitriol on Social Media. This has nothing to do with having a thick skin. It is about large number of people stop acting like idiots. Expressing opinions is ok. Not liking someone is ok. Hurling abuse either verbally or electronically is not.

On the recruitment piece, Savage always been consistent for me. Mgr says he needs player, Savage gives him options, Mgr decides. Not really sure what is hard to understand about this. The only question I would have is why is there not a theme running through the football club that says is he a Hearts player. As I would not want a new manager to be able to completely rip up what has gone before, albeit some fans might argue that is needed.

[boag1874]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

Reading what Savage has said etc I wonder if we even need a Sporting Director.  Firstly it is not clear about the pecking order eg is the Head Coach subservient to the SD or is he the lackey to (reasonably) get what the HC wants?

Secondly, even if we do need a SD, surely someone in that position must expect and be able to withstand criticism, realising that some of that, based on performance, is justified while some will come from the brain challenged.  That will happen to anyone in a senior position anywhere inside or outside of football and if you seriously let it get to you, you're in the wrong job.

It might be currently unfashionable but maybe we should consider returning to the old style Manager and Chief Scout set-up where the lines were a lot less blurred.  It might also save money which could be better spent on the playing field.  The relatively little money we have to work with poses the question whether it is wise to expend part of it on the roles of Brown (now gone?) and Lancefield.

The SD & Head Coach both ultimately answer to McKinley & the board - they work in tandem. It's not a Craig Levien situation where the SD is in total control. It may be blurred lines to us as fans but it's a setup that's part & parcel of football management nowadays & not unique to Hearts.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Come on then , own up

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dusk_Till_Dawn

[Luckies1874]

Group hug.

[TheBigO]

25 minutes ago, Prehen said:

I thought the Savage article was great, and needed to be said. No one should come to work and get abuse. Why football fans think it is fine on a Saturday in or around the ground is just beyond me. As he says in the full article to Hearts Standard, many of the same people who say personal WellBeing is important are the same people who hurl personal vitriol on Social Media. This has nothing to do with having a thick skin. It is about large number of people stop acting like idiots. Expressing opinions is ok. Not liking someone is ok. Hurling abuse either verbally or electronically is not.

On the recruitment piece, Savage always been consistent for me. Mgr says he needs player, Savage gives him options, Mgr decides. Not really sure what is hard to understand about this. The only question I would have is why is there not a theme running through the football club that says is he a Hearts player. As I would not want a new manager to be able to completely rip up what has gone before, albeit some fans might argue that is needed.

Put simply, moronic "supporters" don't grasp that people in football are..... erm.... PEOPLE.

 

Folk get personally insulted by guys doing their best.  Very very few - really a tiny percentage - of footballers, coaches, managers etc don't do their best.  They might not realise they have another gear they can click in to or they may have limits, but at the end of the day, no one is actually taking the piss.  Or it's a rare thing anyway.

 

People talking about football being old-school.  I know it was shall we say rougher round the edges back then, but I actually think the level and type of abuse now is way worse.  Nothing old school about it.  It's a new phenomenon that everyone thinks they know every minute detail about a person or club.  Rumours, literally made up bullshit, grow arms and legs on the internet.  Savage is a bad egg, Beni want god to heal his knee, Andy Halliday can play football.  These things can actually be as simple as half a joke on a thread on jkb and end up being run with by idiots looking to pop at the club.

 

I'm sure it happens at every club in the world these days, not just Hearts.  Was speaking to a Hibby last week and he was saying same about their support tbh.

 

Just turn up and support your team, man.  If it makes you all frothy when they don't play as well as you'd like, go take up fishing or some shit.  Seriously.

 

I may not be right, but the majority of the zoomers you hear shouting and a lot of the worst ones on forums have never played nor been around football other than as a naeclue watcher.  Not saying their opinion is any less important, but the shit they come out with you can just tell they either don't know the game tactically or the workings of a club.  Being general here, but it's a definite theme.  If I went to ballet, or cricket, or I duno, basketball, I just wouldn't have the nerve to shout at the professionals about something I know eff all about!!!!  "Caw that a demi-plié ya skinny cow!?"

[H2]

3 hours ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Constructive criticism is absolutely fine in my opinion but personal abuse isn't

What you think is constuctive crit, others might think is personal abuse. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

2 minutes ago, H2 said:

What you think is constuctive crit, others might think is personal abuse. 

I've criticised myself buddy but a do think the personal stuff is too far ! By all means if people think he's doing rubbish job give stick about that but the personal stuff crosses like imo

[NextGenerationJambo]

16 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Andy Halliday can play football.

A dangerous rumour indeed 

[H2]

1 minute ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

I've criticised myself buddy but a do think the personal stuff is too far ! By all means if people think he's doing rubbish job give stick about that but the personal stuff crosses like imo

Do you get stick when you do a rubbish job form all and sundry, and how does anyone really know, how can it be measured?

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

19 minutes ago, H2 said:

Do you get stick when you do a rubbish job form all and sundry, and how does anyone really know, how can it be measured?

Well what you would get charged by police for in the street is going to far for me! As I've already said constructive criticism absolutely fine but personal abuse isn't 

[Luckies1874]

Putting aside the unnecessary personal abuse which he has opened up about what is it Joe Savage believes he is to be judged on in respect to his role at Hearts? He seems very keen to abdicate responsibility for signings so how is he being assessed? 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Reading what Savage has said etc I wonder if we even need a Sporting Director.  Firstly it is not clear about the pecking order eg is the Head Coach subservient to the SD or is he the lackey to (reasonably) get what the HC wants?

Secondly, even if we do need a SD, surely someone in that position must expect and be able to withstand criticism, realising that some of that, based on performance, is justified while some will come from the brain challenged.  That will happen to anyone in a senior position anywhere inside or outside of football and if you seriously let it get to you, you're in the wrong job.

It might be currently unfashionable but maybe we should consider returning to the old style Manager and Chief Scout set-up where the lines were a lot less blurred.  It might also save money which could be better spent on the playing field.  The relatively little money we have to work with poses the question whether it is wise to expend part of it on the roles of Brown (now gone?) and Lancefield.

 

Does a lot of other time consuming tasks also though. Neilson said it was a massive shock at MK Don's not having it.

[Prehen]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Put simply, moronic "supporters" don't grasp that people in football are..... erm.... PEOPLE.

 

Folk get personally insulted by guys doing their best.  Very very few - really a tiny percentage - of footballers, coaches, managers etc don't do their best.  They might not realise they have another gear they can click in to or they may have limits, but at the end of the day, no one is actually taking the piss.  Or it's a rare thing anyway.

 

People talking about football being old-school.  I know it was shall we say rougher round the edges back then, but I actually think the level and type of abuse now is way worse.  Nothing old school about it.  It's a new phenomenon that everyone thinks they know every minute detail about a person or club.  Rumours, literally made up bullshit, grow arms and legs on the internet.  Savage is a bad egg, Beni want god to heal his knee, Andy Halliday can play football.  These things can actually be as simple as half a joke on a thread on jkb and end up being run with by idiots looking to pop at the club.

 

I'm sure it happens at every club in the world these days, not just Hearts.  Was speaking to a Hibby last week and he was saying same about their support tbh.

 

Just turn up and support your team, man.  If it makes you all frothy when they don't play as well as you'd like, go take up fishing or some shit.  Seriously.

 

I may not be right, but the majority of the zoomers you hear shouting and a lot of the worst ones on forums have never played nor been around football other than as a naeclue watcher.  Not saying their opinion is any less important, but the shit they come out with you can just tell they either don't know the game tactically or the workings of a club.  Being general here, but it's a definite theme.  If I went to ballet, or cricket, or I duno, basketball, I just wouldn't have the nerve to shout at the professionals about something I know eff all about!!!!  "Caw that a demi-plié ya skinny cow!?"

Second that. I think modern day society is worse due to people like Trump, Farage and Johnson getting away with quoting opinion as facts. I would not write anything hear that I would not be happy asking McKinlay, Savage or Naismith over a pint. The language I use is the way I would like someone to speak to me. I love the passion that football brings out in people, it is a religion. But no one needs to resort to language or insults. Although some of the refs have recently tested my resolve!!!

[Rudy T]

Teflon Joe! It never seems to have much to do with him. Recruitment the latest part of the role that he’s not sticking his name against. Still nothing from the academy coming through, still no real cohesion between the Academy, B team and first team. More “Hearts” men in jobs we never really look beyond that it seems. We’re hardly making the most of the resources we have. The managerial appointments. Happy enough to go on the piss in Greece on deadline day with the fans, now a fan has had a joke with him he’s not happy. Maybe if he told us exactly his role and what he is responsible for we’d not be as critical, as this seems to change when it suits. All in my opinion of course!!

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, boag1874 said:

The SD & Head Coach both ultimately answer to McKinley & the board - they work in tandem. It's not a Craig Levien situation where the SD is in total control. It may be blurred lines to us as fans but it's a setup that's part & parcel of football management nowadays & not unique to Hearts.

Because it's supposedly more modern and not unique to Hearts, it does not make it the best fit.

They answer to McKinley and McKinley answers to AB and on and on it goes.  Needs to more streamlined with fewer hands on the tiller.

Maybe someone could now explain to me who is actually responsible for the team/transfers etc.

[colinmaroon]

Kind of torn with that article. 

 

It does, at first reading, smack of "poor me" syndrome.  His comments about being "bald" and his weight don't sit comfortably as him being straight and bearing all in a genuine manner. 

 

Having said that, the amount of abuse handed out these days is amplified by social media in a way that never happened back before its advent, and it is draining. 

 

Mind you, if he thinks what he gets is bad, he wants to try being a "real" Christian minister in our enlightened age. 

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, colinmaroon said:

Kind of torn with that article. 

 

It does, at first reading, smack of "poor me" syndrome.  His comments about being "bald" and his weight don't sit comfortably as him being straight and bearing all in a genuine manner. 

 

Having said that, the amount of abuse handed out these days is amplified by social media in a way that never happened back before its advent, and it is draining. 

 

Mind you, if he thinks what he gets is bad, he wants to try being a "real" Christian minister in our enlightened age. 

Enlightened?

[best in the land]

3 hours ago, Prehen said:

I thought the Savage article was great, and needed to be said. No one should come to work and get abuse. Why football fans think it is fine on a Saturday in or around the ground is just beyond me. As he says in the full article to Hearts Standard, many of the same people who say personal WellBeing is important are the same people who hurl personal vitriol on Social Media. This has nothing to do with having a thick skin. It is about large number of people stop acting like idiots. Expressing opinions is ok. Not liking someone is ok. Hurling abuse either verbally or electronically is not.

On the recruitment piece, Savage always been consistent for me. Mgr says he needs player, Savage gives him options, Mgr decides. Not really sure what is hard to understand about this. The only question I would have is why is there not a theme running through the football club that says is he a Hearts player. As I would not want a new manager to be able to completely rip up what has gone before, albeit some fans might argue that is needed.

People get abuse at a lot of jobs unfortunately.

In my job working with public it's a daily thing and has got worse in recent years.

And I get paid far less than savage.

People are far more entitled and ignorant than ever.

Imo it is a factor in rising suicide rates.

 

[OTT]

I've seen some posts on here that have been far too personal - the stuff about him engaging with the fans and slating him for it for example felt unnecessary. Thought it was really good of him to get involved with fans and some other posts seemed enthused he'd made an effort to engage with fans. 

 

With his comments on recruitment, I'm left a bit confused on what his actual role is - yes I get "to head up the football department", but I'm not sure what that entails - whats his day to day? Which areas of responsibility fall on him? TBH I'm not really buying the "recruitment is nothing to do with me" stance. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, and as Sporting Director he bears ultimate responsibility, and sure scouts, head of recruitment and managers will go before he does, but if there are serious errors in recruitment, I expect to see some form of accountability. Kio cost us £400k and was a complete and utter waste of time and money. 

 

FWIW I think Joe is doing a good job, in terms of results. 3rd and 4th so far are decent and I think but for Neilson falling apart it would have been two successive 3rd place finishes. It would be good to see some silverware delivered though - over 10 years since we lifted the Scottish cup now.

 

IMO the Sporting Director should be playing a role in the development of the overall footballing strategy - how we play to ensure our academy and first team styles of play are complimentary and there is genuine chances as a result for youngsters. Something that stuck out to me under Robbie was that he had us playing a 343 whilst Naisy in the B team was playing a 433/ back 4. In the formation Robbie was using we clearly needed wingbacks and it didn't seem like there was much uniformity in style of play and the sort of players we were developing at academy level - my feeling on it was, are we just running a glorified youth club? Because if we're not seeking to line up our first team with the academy then the academy is a waste of time and resources. The players won't fit the jigsaw we're building essentially. 

 

I think if Joe feels he's getting unwarranted criticism then doing a sit down interview with Skedd/ Banderson to actually lay out what he does do as sporting director and try and provide greater clarity for fans. I don't want to be criticising him unfairly. 

[DS98]

Just get on with your job Joe. Running off to the press with the poor me’s isn’t a good look. 

 

In his first year at the club he was praised to the high heavens because of the players we brought in. He could walk on water. Where was the ‘but I don’t sign the players’ line back then? We had an absolute embarrassment of a January window which contributed to our collapse last season. He takes the plaudits then he takes the criticism.

 

Personal abuse is sad to see but there’s been arseholes since the dawn of time, especially in football. 

[FJT]

8 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Put simply, moronic "supporters" don't grasp that people in football are..... erm.... PEOPLE.

 

Folk get personally insulted by guys doing their best.  Very very few - really a tiny percentage - of footballers, coaches, managers etc don't do their best.  They might not realise they have another gear they can click in to or they may have limits, but at the end of the day, no one is actually taking the piss.  Or it's a rare thing anyway.

 

People talking about football being old-school.  I know it was shall we say rougher round the edges back then, but I actually think the level and type of abuse now is way worse.  Nothing old school about it.  It's a new phenomenon that everyone thinks they know every minute detail about a person or club.  Rumours, literally made up bullshit, grow arms and legs on the internet.  Savage is a bad egg, Beni want god to heal his knee, Andy Halliday can play football.  These things can actually be as simple as half a joke on a thread on jkb and end up being run with by idiots looking to pop at the club.

 

I'm sure it happens at every club in the world these days, not just Hearts.  Was speaking to a Hibby last week and he was saying same about their support tbh.

 

Just turn up and support your team, man.  If it makes you all frothy when they don't play as well as you'd like, go take up fishing or some shit.  Seriously.

 

I may not be right, but the majority of the zoomers you hear shouting and a lot of the worst ones on forums have never played nor been around football other than as a naeclue watcher.  Not saying their opinion is any less important, but the shit they come out with you can just tell they either don't know the game tactically or the workings of a club.  Being general here, but it's a definite theme.  If I went to ballet, or cricket, or I duno, basketball, I just wouldn't have the nerve to shout at the professionals about something I know eff all about!!!!  "Caw that a demi-plié ya skinny cow!?"

 👏 

[Pasquale for King]

He has ambitions to work for Juve, when they’re chasing him with baseball bats he may well think being called a fat baldy ******* was a term of endearment. 
Abuse in any line of work is unacceptable, cant see me not doing it on Sunday though so I’m a big fat hypocrite. 

[ri Alban]

He's a charlatan.  

[colinmaroon]

11 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Enlightened?

 

The heaviest sarcasm!!! 

 

 

[Leveins Battalion]

Joe Savage needs to punt Will Lancefield and bring in a proper HoR that's actually involved in the club,not based on a laptop in Southampton googling names.

[TheBigO]

4 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

Joe Savage needs to punt Will Lancefield and bring in a proper HoR that's actually involved in the club,not based on a laptop in Southampton googling names.

BUt has our recruitment been that bad!?!?!?  I still don't see the argument which has built up saying our recruitment is so poor.  How?  No one seems to give big examples.  Other than Kio, who has been an actual straight up failure?

 

And remember no club in the world has a perfect track record, in fact, 50% of signings getting meaninful game time, never mind being roaring successes is seen as about industry average.

 

So, come on everyone, in what way is our recruitment so bad?

 

Clark, Nat, Toby, Kent, Rowles, Neilson, Cochrane, Devlin, Beni, Kio, Snodgrass, Newy, Grant, Gino, Forrest, Oda, McKay, Shanks, Tagawa, Vargas all perm signings since being promoted 

 

Some loans of varying success, but include Simms, Humps, Hill, Moore, Woodburn, Offiah, Lowry off top of my head.

 

So show me the awful recruitment.  Kio and Snoddy didn't work out.  Neilson to blame 100% for Snoddy situation imo and from what I heard.

 

I use the word A LOT on here.  It's narrative.  It's not fact, but it's presented as fact that our recruitment is shite.  In terms of outlay and budget being somewhat similar, look at Hibs and Aberdeen recruitment in that time - how many duffs did htey have compared to us?  How many roaring successes?  How many did a job?

 

You also have to look at how stretched their squads have been in comparison to ours in terms of injuries.  That is not the recruitment team's fault or indeed problem.

 

I get many of ours fall in to the "do a job" category, but the coach's job is to take these guys and build a team and we have plenty quality in there for that to be done imo.

 

It's pissing and moaning for the sake of it.

[Sooks]

28 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

Joe Savage needs to punt Will Lancefield and bring in a proper HoR that's actually involved in the club,not based on a laptop in Southampton googling names.

Who are the players that he has recruited that make you think this

[Sooks]

12 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

BUt has our recruitment been that bad!?!?!?  I still don't see the argument which has built up saying our recruitment is so poor.  How?  No one seems to give big examples.  Other than Kio, who has been an actual straight up failure?

 

And remember no club in the world has a perfect track record, in fact, 50% of signings getting meaninful game time, never mind being roaring successes is seen as about industry average.

 

So, come on everyone, in what way is our recruitment so bad?

 

Clark, Nat, Toby, Kent, Rowles, Neilson, Cochrane, Devlin, Beni, Kio, Snodgrass, Newy, Grant, Gino, Forrest, Oda, McKay, Shanks, Tagawa, Vargas all perm signings since being promoted 

 

Some loans of varying success, but include Simms, Humps, Hill, Moore, Woodburn, Offiah, Lowry off top of my head.

 

So show me the awful recruitment.  Kio and Snoddy didn't work out.  Neilson to blame 100% for Snoddy situation imo and from what I heard.

 

I use the word A LOT on here.  It's narrative.  It's not fact, but it's presented as fact that our recruitment is shite.  In terms of outlay and budget being somewhat similar, look at Hibs and Aberdeen recruitment in that time - how many duffs did htey have compared to us?  How many roaring successes?  How many did a job?

 

You also have to look at how stretched their squads have been in comparison to ours in terms of injuries.  That is not the recruitment team's fault or indeed problem.

 

I get many of ours fall in to the "do a job" category, but the coach's job is to take these guys and build a team and we have plenty quality in there for that to be done imo.

 

It's pissing and moaning for the sake of it.

It is not bad , not by a long shot . However now Neilson has gone , those who insisted Naismith was going to be the next coming of Klopp are now needing somewhere else to shine the spotlight 

[TheBigO]

12 minutes ago, Sooks said:

It is not bad , not by a long shot . However now Neilson has gone , those who insisted Naismith was going to be the next coming of Klopp are now needing somewhere else to shine the spotlight 

Maybe, maybe not.  I rarely note who writes what on here bar a few names, generally the ones I like, so it goes over my head.

 

FWIW I was never a Robbie hater, but wanted him away when we got rid, it went sour, he made a tit of it.  I was happy with Naisy and tentatively perhaps still am, I want him to have a bit time and a bit more of the squad available to him before really judging.

 

But the recruitment isn't the biggest issue imo.  It's silly to say it is.

 

Christ we've gone from Amankwaa, Sowah and Reilly being not good enough to Rowles, Cam and Vargas not being good enough?  You have to be shitting me.  We're on the right path imo.  People love to block out the truly bad times, never mind the 95% of our history where we've been pretty much right where we are - in the hunt for top 4.  I want us all to push for better, but the bile cos the club are doing what we've always done, if not a bit better, is mad (I know where we are in the league right now, but we judge league place at the end of the season usually in football...)

[jamboinglasgow]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

BUt has our recruitment been that bad!?!?!?  I still don't see the argument which has built up saying our recruitment is so poor.  How?  No one seems to give big examples.  Other than Kio, who has been an actual straight up failure?

 

And remember no club in the world has a perfect track record, in fact, 50% of signings getting meaninful game time, never mind being roaring successes is seen as about industry average.

 

So, come on everyone, in what way is our recruitment so bad?

 

Clark, Nat, Toby, Kent, Rowles, Neilson, Cochrane, Devlin, Beni, Kio, Snodgrass, Newy, Grant, Gino, Forrest, Oda, McKay, Shanks, Tagawa, Vargas all perm signings since being promoted 

 

Some loans of varying success, but include Simms, Humps, Hill, Moore, Woodburn, Offiah, Lowry off top of my head.

 

So show me the awful recruitment.  Kio and Snoddy didn't work out.  Neilson to blame 100% for Snoddy situation imo and from what I heard.

 

I use the word A LOT on here.  It's narrative.  It's not fact, but it's presented as fact that our recruitment is shite.  In terms of outlay and budget being somewhat similar, look at Hibs and Aberdeen recruitment in that time - how many duffs did htey have compared to us?  How many roaring successes?  How many did a job?

 

You also have to look at how stretched their squads have been in comparison to ours in terms of injuries.  That is not the recruitment team's fault or indeed problem.

 

I get many of ours fall in to the "do a job" category, but the coach's job is to take these guys and build a team and we have plenty quality in there for that to be done imo.

 

It's pissing and moaning for the sake of it.

 

I agree.  

 

Recruitment has been fine. As you say later its much better than the scattergun approach under Levein. There has been players that have underwhelmed (Woodburn, Moore, Grant and Kio for example.) But I would not say there is one player we have signed that has not at least contributed. Even Snoddy's signing, though it fell apart later, provided us with what we needed for 6 months and was one of our best players in that time.

 

As you say recruitment team is there to find players for the manger to decide which one he wants, I think they have done a good job of it. The managers job is to get the most out of those players. I think Neilson for example, got players playing the tactical side but was not good at improving players (few got better over his time.) Naismith I think is much better man manager and improving. I think its taking longer then we would have liked but I am starting to see players improve under him in recent weeks and if that continues then we wont complain about recruitment.

 

I completely agree a lot of this is narrative, Hearts fans focus on the signings that dont work as well at Hearts and use the successes of other clubs to beat the club. But every club has success and failure in recruitment and all clubs in the Premiership have players who they sign, who play a few games then moves on. A fun game is look at Celtics squad, and usually they have a few players who you ask who are they (saw yesterday that Benfica loaned Paulo Bernado to Celtic, and was immedately thinking when did that happen, then realised he was a big move at the end of the window. He has only played 3 games.)

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Maybe, maybe not.  I rarely note who writes what on here bar a few names, generally the ones I like, so it goes over my head.

 

FWIW I was never a Robbie hater, but wanted him away when we got rid, it went sour, he made a tit of it.  I was happy with Naisy and tentatively perhaps still am, I want him to have a bit time and a bit more of the squad available to him before really judging.

 

But the recruitment isn't the biggest issue imo.  It's silly to say it is.

 

Christ we've gone from Amankwaa, Sowah and Reilly being not good enough to Rowles, Cam and Vargas not being good enough?  You have to be shitting me.  We're on the right path imo.  People love to block out the truly bad times, never mind the 95% of our history where we've been pretty much right where we are - in the hunt for top 4.  I want us all to push for better, but the bile cos the club are doing what we've always done, if not a bit better, is mad (I know where we are in the league right now, but we judge league place at the end of the season usually in football...)

Oh I wanted Neilson gone as well , just not when we were winning most weeks and getting to cup finals or playing European group stages like some of the brain trust did . There were people at that time claiming everything else was great and it was just Neilson holding us back . The same people were telling us how Naismith was going to come in like a whirlwind and tear up the league . I never wanted Naismith but I was and just about still am prepared to give him time . Results need to start improving now though , and sadly for him that is after a less than inspiring start against the smaller teams and a block of tough games coming up . The players are good players . A decent head coach who didnt need time to learn on the job would have had us doing a lot better by now 

[4marsbars]

I just Googled 'typical Kickback thread' and it took me here.

 

 

[Albert McFly]

Public figure gets upset about people being nasty to him but keeps his remit private to said people. Another failure in communication and engagement with a fan owned club

[Sooks]

4 minutes ago, Albert McFly said:

Public figure gets upset about people being nasty to him but keeps his remit private to said people. Another failure in communication and engagement with a fan owned club

 

[Jim Panzee]

2 hours ago, TheBigO said:

 

 

Christ we've gone from Amankwaa, Sowah and Reilly being not good enough to Rowles, Cam and Vargas not being good enough?  You have to be shitting me.  We're on the right path imo.  People love to block out the truly bad times, never mind the 95% of our history where we've been pretty much right where we are - in the hunt for top 4.  I want us all to push for better, but the bile cos the club are doing what we've always done, if not a bit better, is mad (I know where we are in the league right now, but we judge league place at the end of the season usually in football...)

this says it all.

 

from those you mention, plus punts / projects like Aidy White - to international players.

 

its really up to the managers / coaches to utilise the signings. Just wish we could be injury free for 6 months to see us really kick on

[colinmaroon]

I note the pathetic FootballfanCast article has reared its awful journo head, regurgitating it's ill informed article from before the close of the transfer window.  Wrong then, and wrong now.  Poor, lazy piece which almost certainly never got the writer off his arse. 

 

 

[bringonthesevco]

On 05/09/2023 at 22:41, OTT said:

 

He goes on to say that football isn't a complicated game and that people seem to want to over complicate it. Honestly, so much of what he's saying there rings true to the situation we've been in for about 2 and a half years.

 

We have the most ruthless striker we've had in 30 years and he's lucky if he's getting 3 half chances a game because we're hogging possession and he's getting marked out the game. Yet if we were pressing aggressively and winning the ball back in dangerous areas/ creating turnovers when the opposition are trying to transition into attack, Shanks would be getting those sort of chances more frequently (as he will likely be gaining a yard of space here and there) and be able to fashion a goal out of them. 

 

Oh and our set pieces are a ****ing disgrace - 16 corners and absolutely nothing to show for it. Beyond embarrassing whatever is going on at Riccarton. 

Before we get to carried away with Allardyces football philosophy, we should remember the remarkable success it brought him.

 

English 3rd Division Title with Notts County - That's it - whilst playing a style of football that we whinged about for a long time.

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, Jim Panzee said:

this says it all.

 

from those you mention, plus punts / projects like Aidy White - to international players.

 

its really up to the managers / coaches to utilise the signings. Just wish we could be injury free for 6 months to see us really kick on

I don't think it says it all at all.

The one thing folk seem stupidly to overlook is that the players we signed 3 or 4 years back were probably of a standard we could then afford and I may say they included international players then as well.

We can afford to buy better quality players now so it stands to reason we should be doing better.

The real question is

Are we getting value for money?

[Jim Panzee]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I don't think it says it all at all.

The one thing folk seem stupidly to overlook is that the players we signed 3 or 4 years back were probably of a standard we could then afford and I may say they included international players then as well.

We can afford to buy better quality players now so it stands to reason we should be doing better.

The real question is

Are we getting value for money?

who were our internationals four years ago? Djoum? Lafferty...Aaron hughes?

 

correct that we can now afford a better player - but the other point is that we're casting our net globally.

 

time will tell if we're getting value for money - I think we are (just)