Should Steven Naismith be sacked? ( merged )

[Sooks]

17 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

I look on it as 3 big cup wins in in 25 years. 😉

As do I 

[kingantti1874]

34 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

 

I'm pretty sure that our next set of figures will show revenue that is more than Kilie, Motherwell and St Mirren put together. It may not be the gap in finances between us and the Old Firm but there is now way that St Mirren for instance should be matching our points total over the last 47 league games ( I think it's 1pt less). That is absolutely scandalous and shows that we are neither getting value for money or performing to a level that should be expected. If there is an acceptance that the Old Firm are going to be 30+ pts our whatever ahead of us there should equally be an acknowledgement that we should be leaving the likes of those 3 clubs in our wake even if it is more difficult to do the same with Hibernian and Aberdeen. 

I agree, it’s why I wanted neilson out .  And while I’m not demanding Naismith out yet I’m also not defending it becuase it’s not good enough.  
 

however, as I’ve said the advantage we she can be very easily negated e.g. by a few injuries for example.  It’s not very useful to be spending £5m a season more if the players you’ve spent that money on are sitting on the treatment table.
 

Right now Gordon, Halkett, Mackay Kingsley not available. And Beni our best player looks a shadow of his former self. They are amongst our highest earners. The gap in revenue isn’t big enough to expect g out replacements to be at that level. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

I agree, it’s why I wanted neilson out .  And while I’m not demanding Naismith out yet I’m also not defending it becuase it’s not good enough.  
 

however, as I’ve said the advantage we she can be very easily negated e.g. by a few injuries for example.  It’s not very useful to be spending £5m a season more if the players you’ve spent that money on are sitting on the treatment table.
 

Right now Gordon, Halkett, Mackay Kingsley not available. And Beni our best player looks a shadow of his former self. They are amongst our highest earners. The gap in revenue isn’t big enough to expect g out replacements to be at that level. 

We've got far bigger squad than those clubs and when they get serious injury more often than not they have to go to there youth sides to just throw kids in

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

22 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

I look on it as 3 big cup wins in in 25 years. 😉

Absolutely! When the cup wins come it makes them even more special that we've waited years for them, best days of my life outwith Birth of my kids

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, Sir PH said:

Why do you post so much nonsense? Do you not get tired? 

 

Gutted, I tell ya!

 

 

[Scott Leitch]

21 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Gutted, I tell ya!

 

 

I'm oot Tosh. Oot.

[buzzbomb1958]

3 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

but the footballing side stands up very well against most of the teams you’ve witnessed since 1958. We may not like it but that is the reality.  This season over 9 games not good enough and I expect t to recover it but the reality is 3rd /4th is about par if  slightly above par since you started watching. 

We will more likely be in a bottom six dogfight if things are allowed to continue 

[hmfc_liam06]

2 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

done it by saying average £5m across the rest of the league. Dont think that’ll be too far off, some teams a bit more and some a bit less.  

 

Our extra gets us “marginally” better players and  “marginally” better squad all of which can be neutralised by poor coaching, injuries as I’ve said. Of our £10m wage bill half of it has been sat in the treatment room for months 

no where near a big enough gap to guarantee anything. 
 

this season hasn’t been good enough, zero debate but the expectation levels among our support aren’t justified by facts 

 

 

Our bigger budget allows us to buy slightly better shite than others. There's probably not a huge difference in ability between a guy who earns 4k at us vs 3k at another club.

 

But the difference between a guy who earns 4k at us v 25k at the OF is off the charts. As we see each season when either of them win the league.

 

Closing the gap isn't happening anytime soon (if ever), and the "we should be miles ahead of the rest" camp are equally unrealistic.
 

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Don't need to be a "forward thinking pioneer" to know that appointing Naismith was going to be an unmitigated disaster especially when they then had the farcical managerial setup over a couple of months. And if pointing that out means you are tagged a moaning faced ***** then so be it. If you continue to support the abysmal record the board has when it comes to footballing decisions then you are simply complicit in the self harm the club now has a lengthy laundry list of inflicting on us. 

You either don’t know what unmitigated disaster means or you really hate SN and/or the club you say you support. 
 

I’m not backing anything, i’m just not losing my mind over this taking longer than we’d hoped. 

[Sir PH]

58 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Do you take your kids to games?

I did, when they were younger. And we managed to escape unscathed from those big, bad, nasty songs. 

[Sir PH]

41 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I’ve answered it multiple times.  

Aye, by saying there's not a great deal between our finances. Which is nonsense. Our turnover and wage bill is far greater than those clubs I mentioned. 

[buzzbomb1958]

3 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

but the footballing side stands up very well against most of the teams you’ve witnessed since 1958. We may not like it but that is the reality.  This season over 9 games not good enough and I expect t to recover it but the reality is 3rd /4th is about par if  slightly above par since you started watching. 

The footballing side of our team at the moment is putrid , a manager with no qualifications out of his depth and a crazy decision by a board without a footballing brain between them, I’ve followed Hearts for 60 yrs , yes we have had some crap teams but also some bloody good sides , but the boards always had footballing brains on board ( apart from Vlads reign where he took charge of everything) but at least they would never put an inexperienced manager who is learning on the job , sorry but for me this is up there with one of the most stupid decisions ever made by a so called Hearts board

[Bongo 1874]

13 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Our bigger budget allows us to buy slightly better shite than others. There's probably not a huge difference in ability between a guy who earns 4k at us vs 3k at another club.

 

But the difference between a guy who earns 4k at us v 25k at the OF is off the charts. As we see each season when either of them win the league.

 

Closing the gap isn't happening anytime soon (if ever), and the "we should be miles ahead of the rest" camp are equally unrealistic.
 

That said and I agree with most of the points,the ambition has to be to find ways to close the gap,finding more funding to allow better wages say between 10-15k.

 

This could also be achieved by recruiting better, and through sales of said recruitment.

 

I believe this is what Aberdeen and Hibs have been able to do,resulting in them buying players for higher transfer fees.

 

It can be achieved with the right football operation in place.

[Kev1998]

5 minutes ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

The footballing side of our team at the moment is putrid , a manager with no qualifications out of his depth and a crazy decision by a board without a footballing brain between them, I’ve followed Hearts for 60 yrs , yes we have had some crap teams but also some bloody good sides , but the boards always had footballing brains on board ( apart from Vlads reign where he took charge of everything) but at least they would never put an inexperienced manager who is learning on the job , sorry but for me this is up there with one of the most stupid decisions ever made by a so called Hearts board

But ,But, but,buzzbomb everything will be rosy  when our injured stars return.when have I heard that again? Round and round we go Again.

[buzzbomb1958]

2 minutes ago, Kev1998 said:

But ,But, but,buzzbomb everything will be rosy  when our injured stars return.when have I heard that again? Round and round we go Again.

Yada Yada Yada 

[kingantti1874]

49 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

We've got far bigger squad than those clubs and when they get serious injury more often than not they have to go to there youth sides to just throw kids in

not aware of any club with anything like the same magnitude of injuries we have had never mind  finishing 3rd / 4th .

 

if they have suffered that magnitude of injuries.  Then we probably beat them ? No

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

That said and I agree with most of the points,the ambition has to be to find ways to close the gap,finding more funding to allow better wages say between 10-15k.

 

This could also be achieved by recruiting better, and through sales of said recruitment.

 

I believe this is what Aberdeen and Hibs have been able to do,resulting in them buying players for higher transfer fees.

 

It can be achieved with the right football operation in place.

Unless we are bankrolled we are light years away from offering regular and sustainable £15k a week wages. I agree with what you are saying about growing the budget but ffs man get real. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

Just now, kingantti1874 said:

not aware of any club with anything like the same magnitude of injuries we have had never mind  finishing 3rd / 4th .

 

if they have suffered that magnitude of injuries.  Then we probably beat them ? No

We've had bad luck with injuries no doubt about it but we've got far bigger squad than those teams and they can only dream of our resources 

[kingantti1874]

23 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

Our bigger budget allows us to buy slightly better shite than others. There's probably not a huge difference in ability between a guy who earns 4k at us vs 3k at another club.

 

But the difference between a guy who earns 4k at us v 25k at the OF is off the charts. As we see each season when either of them win the league.

 

Closing the gap isn't happening anytime soon (if ever), and the "we should be miles ahead of the rest" camp are equally unrealistic.
 

thankyou. A few on here that fundamentally can’t wrap heads around this fact but maybe your explanation will land better than mine 

[Des Lynam]

1 hour ago, Sir PH said:

Based on 3 trophies in 60 years, and an absolutely horrendous League Cup record. There's not really much more I can say.

 

Hopefully. 

[TexasAndy]

6 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

Quite a lot of our support really aren’t that bright I’m afraid

That's a fact.

 

[kingantti1874]

12 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

We've had bad luck with injuries no doubt about it but we've got far bigger squad than those teams and they can only dream of our resources 

I don’t know how many time we go round this circles. You are 100% correct.  I agree with you. However, that resource gap is not BIG enough to buy difference extra quality to guarantee we pump teams. As another poster pointed Is a 4K play THAT much better than a £3k player.  If all of our top earners say £7k (guess) are on the treatment table then our extra resources don’t matter a **** if we are playing teams who for some reason don’t have wild injuries (that is something that needs looked at btw) .  
 

I also agree that other teams can only dream of our resources.  But the gap isn’t big enough to GUARANTEE we will dominate them every time.  Other factors come into play.  We should USUALLY beat the and finish above them and we DO USUALLY beat them and finish above them. This season so far = shite! No arguement.  
 

probably why we are trying to grow revenue streams off the filed but there is a lot of crossover in folk having a go at that as well.  Mindless.

Edited October 26, 2023 by kingantti1874

[Luckies1874]

Livvy’s average wage is £900 a week! 
 

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/david-martindale-lays-bare-average-26476622.amp

 

We’ve won 3 out of the last 10 against them. Forget the Old Firm, it’s statistics like that and being neck and neck in total points won with St Mirren over nigh on the last 50 league matches that need to change. They are unacceptable given the size of our club and the resources and fanbase we have in comparison. There are other examples and this is why criticism is amplified when we are routinely humped by Rantic. If we were doing the business far more often against the dross and teams we should be then poor runs of results wouldn’t be nearly as regular and frustration levels would be significantly lower. Our ongoing problem is we basically never beat the teams we aren’t expected to and don’t beat the teams we are, nearly enough. Thus the continual general underperformance. Not in respect to “closing the gap” or winning something but our overall points tallies and record is nowhere near good enough. 

[NextGenerationJambo]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

What a load of shite. 😂 

 

Recognising the level we are currently at or the speed, limitations and capabilities of growth for the club doesn’t mean you accept failure or mediocrity. Recognising success isn’t instant and while we would all rather the football side kept up with the off field growth it doesn’t mean you are not ambitious. We all(apparently) want hearts to better on the park, tears and snotters don’t mean you want it any more than anyone else. 

Loving how the moaning faced ***** are trying to position themselves as some sort of forward thinking pioneers and everyone else is just a mug who accepts failure. 
 

 

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

Edited October 26, 2023 by NextGenerationJambo

[Luckies1874]

2 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that their making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

Holy ****! Post of the year contender. 
 

  
 

Where’d you appear from?! 😂

It will be lost on some given their post counts but quality over quantity! That said I implore you to post more often. 

[Bongo 1874]

29 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Unless we are bankrolled we are light years away from offering regular and sustainable £15k a week wages. I agree with what you are saying about growing the budget but ffs man get real. 

I still don't think people understand what it ultimately requires and if mods want to move this post to recruitment,they can do so.

 

Victor Boniface who is now at Bayer Leverkusen,played for Bodo Glimt,was roughly on 3/4k a week, I watch a lot of Bodo, due to style of play etc good team to watch and Norwegian league is underrated,Bodo developed him and sold him for over £6mil.

 

Why did he flourish at Bodo? They have set philosophy and style of play that is sticked by,no matter who is manager.

 

Recruitment team are on the ball 24/7 and know who to replace him with.

 

Now my English team Newcastle want him,not bankrolled mate smart Recruitment and 100% sticked to footballing philosophy.

 

Everyone knows jobs and what is expected, they replaced Boniface with Faris Moumbagna for 350k after getting over £6mil for Boniface.

 

Faris Moumbagna is now valued at £4.5mil 14 goals 7 assists so far in 23 appearances.

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

11 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

Nail on head buddy , great post

[Debut 4]

48 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

thankyou. A few on here that fundamentally can’t wrap heads around this fact but maybe your explanation will land better than mine 

I like to strip it back sometimes and simply look at the nature of football and come away from “revenue streams” the future or any other term used to describe the direction Hearts are going off the field that is related to the team.

 

Let’s get in the changing room…..

 

Have we got a management set up that can push the boundaries of the players, see something in players others aren’t (good or bad), really get into the players heads it’s about hard work and bottle?

 

We’re in the grip of a coaching culture….shape, how we play it out from the back, sequences of play, can you keep possession?   These things have always existed but it’s now in the grips of a culture where expression has taken a back seat, players thinking for themselves at a premium, fundamentals seem to be secondary before you get onto more intricate elements of the game.  
 

The truth is, reading this board, we aren’t always far away from excuses. Aye, there’s wide ranging reactions on here whether it’s a win or a defeat but you see many starting to steer towards along the lines of “the off field stuff is going to bear fruition in time”….  I personally couldn’t give a **** about that.

 

It could be 1985 for all I’m concerned and I want to see Hearts as good as they can be at any given time.  Like i felt then and like I feel now. 
 

Like it’s been said before, money helps massively but it can still be used wrongly and you don’t become any better than you’ve ever been.  Maybe in times past when we had less of it we had more fight?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Debut 4

[TallPaul]

Folk talking about Knutsen like he would ever be a realistic target for us. When he leaves Bodo it will be for English football or similar. Get real folks...

[Jim Panzee]

It would be incredibly interesting if a McInnes, Robinson or Kettlewell did become hearts manager.

 

would settle a lot of arguments! 

 

Go on Mr McKinlay - you know you want to

 

 

[kingantti1874]

23 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

only money will materially affect the mediocrity. Everything else is shuffling deck chairs for a short amount of time.  Do things need to improve on the football side?
 

Absolutely. Are the attacks directed  at everyone and everything associated with the club justified. No it’s no.  Are some of the expectations banded about reasonable? No they aren’t.   
 

Unless there is radical change both at hearts and in Scotland we will NEVER be able t lo live up to the expectations of some. 

 

 

 

 

[kingantti1874]

12 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

I like to strip it back sometimes and simply look at the nature of football and come away from “revenue streams” the future or any other term used to describe the direction Hearts are going off the field that is related to the team.

 

Let’s get in the changing room…..

 

Have we got a management set up that can push the boundaries of the players, see something in players others aren’t (good or bad), really get into the players heads it’s about hard work and bottle?

 

We’re in the grip of a coaching culture….shape, how we play it out from the back, sequences of play, can you keep possession?   These things have always existed but it’s now in the grips of a culture where expression has taken a back seat, players thinking for themselves at a premium, fundamentals seem to be secondary before you get onto more intricate elements of the game.  
 

The truth is, reading this board, we aren’t always far away from excuses. Aye, there’s wide ranging reactions on here whether it’s a win or a defeat but you see many starting to steer towards along the lines of “the off field stuff is going to bear fruition in time”….  I personally couldn’t give a **** about that.

 

It could be 1985 for all I’m concerned and I want to see Hearts as good as they can be at any given time.  Like i felt then and like I feel now. 
 

Like it’s been said before, money helps massively but it can still be used wrongly and you don’t become any better than you’ve ever been.  Maybe in times past when we had less of it we had more fight?

 

 

 

 

maybe mate.  I’ve said before that I think we are in a problematic market for  players in that.  

 

Make too much money that they don’t believe they have to fight for their livelihood or their  family.  
 

But they also realise they will probably never achieve and don’t have winners mentality. they don’t demand success.

 

players on £800 a week are fighting for their family.  
 

players on £20k per week are fighting to win.  Becuase they are driven individuals.

 

what are our players on £5k fighting for? A slightly upgraded BMW or a holiday to Turkey? 
 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

17 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

I like to strip it back sometimes and simply look at the nature of football and come away from “revenue streams” the future or any other term used to describe the direction Hearts are going off the field that is related to the team.

 

Let’s get in the changing room…..

 

Have we got a management set up that can push the boundaries of the players, see something in players others aren’t (good or bad), really get into the players heads it’s about hard work and bottle?

 

We’re in the grip of a coaching culture….shape, how we play it out from the back, sequences of play, can you keep possession?   These things have always existed but it’s now in the grips of a culture where expression has taken a back seat, players thinking for themselves at a premium, fundamentals seem to be secondary before you get onto more intricate elements of the game.  
 

The truth is, reading this board, we aren’t always far away from excuses. Aye, there’s wide ranging reactions on here whether it’s a win or a defeat but you see many starting to steer towards along the lines of “the off field stuff is going to bear fruition in time”….  I personally couldn’t give a **** about that.

 

It could be 1985 for all I’m concerned and I want to see Hearts as good as they can be at any given time.  Like i felt then and like I feel now. 
 

Like it’s been said before, money helps massively but it can still be used wrongly and you don’t become any better than you’ve ever been.  Maybe in times past when we had less of it we had more fight?

 

 

 

 

 

 

All your examples are exceptions that  prove the rule. 

You default back to random examples when the fabric and  basis of any logic you thought you had crumbles.

Your examples  are also generally irrelevant to Hearts and Scottish football.

 

 

 

[Dazo]

32 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

So many words and nothing to add. Unsurprisingly in your haste to be alternative and humorous you’ve spectacularly missed the point. Just because I’m not soiling myself with rage it does not mean I’m accepting anything. Your concerns are shared amongst us all, we just don’t all throw our toys all over the place to articulate them. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

The footballing side of our team at the moment is putrid , a manager with no qualifications out of his depth and a crazy decision by a board without a footballing brain between them, I’ve followed Hearts for 60 yrs , yes we have had some crap teams but also some bloody good sides , but the boards always had footballing brains on board ( apart from Vlads reign where he took charge of everything) but at least they would never put an inexperienced manager who is learning on the job , sorry but for me this is up there with one of the most stupid decisions ever made by a so called Hearts board

Agreed. Said so at the time but hoped the crazy experiment of appointing a manager with effectively zero  managerial experience at any level  would somehow come good. You didn't even need a  "footballing brain" to see how stupid the decision was. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Agreed. Said so at the time but hoped the crazy experiment of appointing a manager with effectively zero  managerial experience at any level  would somehow come good. You didn't even need a  "footballing brain" to see how stupid the decision was. 

 

 

How does any manager get a job and  start then?

 

What a strange post.

 

 

[NextGenerationJambo]

35 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

Holy ****! Post of the year contender. 
 

  
 

Where’d you appear from?! 😂

It will be lost on some given their post counts but quality over quantity! That said I implore you to post more often. 

Cheers mate. I don't post all that often as it's hard to have genuine productive discussions on here, and believe it or not I have better things to be doing with my time usually  

[Debut 4]

11 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

All your examples are exceptions that  prove the rule. 

You default back to random examples when the fabric and  basis of any logic you thought you had crumbles.

Your examples  are also generally irrelevant to Hearts and Scottish football.

 

 

 

Explain?   

[Carter]

5 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

How does any manager get a job and  start then?

 

What a strange post.

 

 

At an appropriate level. Perhaps Scottish League 2. 

[Luckies1874]

7 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

Cheers mate. I don't post all that often as it's hard to have genuine productive discussions on here, and believe it or not I have better things to be doing with my time usually  

 

I hear you. You only need look at the response from the poster you obliterated for evidence of that. Everything you said sailed right over their head! 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Luckies1874

[Nerja Jambo]

53 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

Very well put.

[Leveins Battalion]

57 minutes ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

 

 

Outstanding 🇱🇻

[Nerja Jambo]

11 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

How does any manager get a job and  start then?

 

What a strange post.

 

 

No the strange post is yours. A manager gets a job at a small club, gains experience, moves on to a bigger club and maybe again, then when he has proved himself, gained experience he them moves to a big club like Hearts as opposed to doing it the other way round, because the next job both RN and SN get will be at a lesser club than Hearts. To even have to ask that question really says a lot. 

[Bull's-eye]

9 minutes ago, Carter said:

At an appropriate level. Perhaps Scottish League 2. 

 

Yes, all the best coaches start at league 2, there's . . . . . . . & there's . . . . . . . . & dont forget . . . . . . . . . . there's loads, just can't remember them, im sure.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Nerja Jambo said:

No the strange post is yours. A manager gets a job at a small club, gains experience, moves on to a bigger club and maybe again, then when he has proved himself, gained experience he them moves to a big club like Hearts as opposed to doing it the other way round, because the next job both RN and SN get will be at a lesser club than Hearts. To even have to ask that question really says a lot. 

 

That's not what he said, but fair enough.

 

Does every good  manager do that?

 

 

 

[NextGenerationJambo]

15 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

only money will materially affect the mediocrity. Everything else is shuffling deck chairs for a short amount of time.  Do things need to improve on the football side?
 

Absolutely. Are the attacks directed  at everyone and everything associated with the club justified. No it’s no.  Are some of the expectations banded about reasonable? No they aren’t.   
 

Unless there is radical change both at hearts and in Scotland we will NEVER be able t lo live up to the expectations of some. 

 

 

 

 

That's not true though is it? Money, and more specifically wage bill, is by far the most important factor when it comes to footballing success, but is not the only one. The factors that are in our control are not currently being maximised. 

 

Again, I've seen very few attack everything and anything about the club and I've seen very few people claiming that we should be winning the league. The hyperbole applied to an opinion that is contrary to one's own is frightning. You only have to look at the mass exodus last Sunday to guage the general consesus of the fanbase. These are legitimate concerns and expectations. 

 

15 minutes ago, Dazo said:

So many words and nothing to add. Unsurprisingly in your haste to be alternative and humorous you’ve spectacularly missed the point. Just because I’m not soiling myself with rage it does not mean I’m accepting anything. Your concerns are shared amongst us all, we just don’t all throw our toys all over the place to articulate them. 

 

Ah, so unless a post is riddled with logical fallacies it's meaningless in your eyes? Noted. 

 

I wasn't trying to be anything other than myself  but I am so very flattered, even if it was in haste...

 

My toys are firmly in the pram and the adult nappies are clean as a whistle. You can keep whipping out fallacies in an attempt to devalue opinions but it won't work. If you think my post was created from rage or "pant wetting" as people on here love to put it, you could not be more wrong. 

 

Seeing as I've spectacularly missed the point (sorry, it was hard to spot in amongst the name-calling and erroneous logic), you'll need to enlighten me. 

[Shooter McGavin]

Going purely by squad value, ours is around €9 million more than Killie, who have the lowest in the league.
 

But our squad value is around €110 million behind Celtic, who have the highest squad value in the league.

 

Don’t have the wage stats on hand, but I’d imagine it follows a similar pattern.

 

To me, that pretty much demonstrates why this argument that we should be banging on the doors of Celtic & Rangers, and miles ahead of the rest, is unrealistic.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, NextGenerationJambo said:

I, and many others are well aware of the level hearts are at. That level is currently getting pumped by teams with greater resources without them having to exit second gear, whilst simultaneously underperforming against teams with lesser resources.

 

We are currently allowing a rookie technical dire... sorry, manager learn on the job after we clearly were in desperate need of some leadership and expertise. Now, that is a growth-limiting factor if I've ever seen one. 

 

I've not seen a single person advovating for change or wanting hearts to be a better football team, claim that success is instant. That is a logical fallacy you have implimented into your arguement to try and undermine the very valid points that people have. You have at the very least, recognised that the football side is not matching up to the off-the-field business. Which do you think is more important at a FOOTBALL club? 

 

Ahhhhh the old tears and snotters rhetoric! My nose and eyes are dry mate. I've seen plenty of outlandish claims on here but don't be guility of tarnishing everyone with the same brush just because you disagree with them. It's not a good look. People are making perfectly rational, reasoned points in reference to the football team's performances and success, or lack there of. You claiming that they're making those points purely out of emotion and not from a place of reason is yet another logical fallacy to try (emphasis on the word try) and lessen the validity of their argument. 

 

Finishing off with an ad hominem attack to complete the logical fallacy triade. Fair play mate, *chef's kiss*. You'll need to try better to discredit people's arguments. Logic and reason are a good starting point.

 

Us "moaning faced *****'s" as you, so eloquently, put it are at least trying to break the vice grip that mediocracy has on Heart of Midlothian FC. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. There is nothing wrong with saying the club can do better. There IS, however, something very wrong with feeling so much contempt towards those who do want better and who have made their feelings clear.

 

This team means a lot to people, it's engrained in all of our lives, and a lot do not feel like they can trust the current board to give us the best possible chance of success ON THE FIELD. Ultimately, that's what it's all about, no?

 

There are very valid concerns to be had and just because we don't want to grab the comfort blanket of historical performance and subpar expectations does not make us any less of a realist.

Good post.

[Bazzas right boot]

4 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Yes, all the best coaches start at league 2, there's . . . . . . . & there's . . . . . . . . & dont forget . . . . . . . . . . there's loads, just can't remember them, im sure.

 

Yip,

 

Most top managers went straight in at big clubs

 

Even closer to home and more recent successful managers-

 

Robson who got Aberdeen 3rd....

Bob who ast got us 3rd (twice)...

Gerrard at Rangers....

Davidson at St Johnstone....

Clarke, first manager gig Killie iirc..

 

Going to England,  top 2 teams last Season- who where Pep's and Aterta's first clubs to manage?

 

Do folk think before they post?

 

[Nerja Jambo]

Here we all are arguing/agreeing with each other for, at the end of the day, the betterment of our club, who we own. That is the crux, we are the owners yet through zero communication we have no idea as to the thoughts within our Boards as to what they think is the problem, that's even if they think we have a problem. We are not just another football club going through a crisis, we are a fan owned football club. I'm not suggesting for a minute they are issuing statements every other week, but when it is apparent that the owners of the business are so peed off with the product we see, the  stupid, lacking ambition appointments, the endless waste of money ( our money ) then they should have the courtesy to address the concerns we have. Where is Mallon with this, he is the Chair of the very organisation elected to represent us, yet we have had 2 communications from him this year, the last reminding us its the AGM and promising some new initiatives. I won't hold my breath.