Toby Sibbick ( merged )

[hisnameis]

Just now, A_A wehatethehibs said:

He has a lot of potential and an absolutely fantastic engine however it’s crystal clear why he didn’t manage to displace Jackson Irvine and Aaron Mooy in the Aussie team, 2 very very good passers of a ball.
 

Cammy has the fitness engine for the absolute top elite level of the game but his passing must improve

Totally agree. Not sure if he gets a bit excited and lacks composure  or if it is just a lack of passing ability but the guy is way better off the ball than with it

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

We do need a commanding CB, im in no doubt.

 

2 Clean sheets all season and very vulnerable to cross balls all season. 

Yesterday doesn't change that.

 

Add in Halketts and Kingsleys Injuries and it's a priority.

 

They need to be good tho, ready made and ready to make an impact straight away.

We have 2 guys with potential that can slip in and out of the team but we need a commanding cb

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

Yep all fair enough I just felt like for a split second he took his eye off the ball. Maybe a bit of both, Either way a few months ago he wouldn’t have made such a tremendous recovery. 

 

It was also a daft pass.

 

Tbf, everyone was guilty of it, our passing and decision making was shite, from Mckay trying the glory ball to Devlin just unable to pass it ten yards.

 

We couldn't pass a jobbie yesterday. 

 

3-0 tho.🤣🤣

 

[pettigrewsstylist]

25 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 Clean sheets all season and very vulnerable to cross balls all season. 

Yesterday doesn't change that.

 

Add in Halketts and Kingsleys Injuries and it's a priority.

 

They need to be good tho, ready made and ready to make an impact straight away.

We have 2 guys with potential that can slip in and out of the team but we need a commanding cb

 

 

Suspect loan will do and be easiest for this type in Jan window 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

11 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 Clean sheets all season and very vulnerable to cross balls all season. 

Yesterday doesn't change that.

 

Add in Halketts and Kingsleys Injuries and it's a priority.

 

They need to be good tho, ready made and ready to make an impact straight away.

We have 2 guys with potential that can slip in and out of the team but we need a commanding cb

 

 

Well yesterday does change that because before it was 1 clean sheet now it’s 2.

 

Let’s see what happens with Sibbick and Rowles playing consistently together now in front of Zander. It has been freshened up and these guys have their opportunity. 
 

Yes I’m sure we will be on the lookout for a CB but, can we get someone good enough? If it’s a loan signing, sure it could be a Dunne, but it could be a Shaughnessy.

 

I actually think we might have more use for a RB than a CB. Atkinson to me is the weak link and we had Forrest filling in there which should not happen. 
 

IMO we will get a couple of defenders in but I don’t feel a massive need to panic buy as there’s signs Sibbick and Rowles have potential there and with Lewis Neilson, why develop some other teams youth when we’ve got our own young Scotland U21 cap who can step in as the backup? 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Here's a few more screen shots.

 

Here's the ball when Devlin plays it.

 

 

And here's a half second later:

 

 

What you can see is that Sibbick was expecting the ball but he was leaning to his left so all his weight is over his left foot. Devlin needs to see that and play it away from Youan and towards the other side where Cochrane is there in case of disaster. It's hard to show in the stills but Sibbick has to take a shuffle step to the right just to nearly get his foot on it, so yes, it's both to the wrong side and a yard too far. It probably shouldn't have come in so hot but Devlin is clearly already worried about Youan closing down.

 

The safe play there is that Michael Smith is pushing up the field behind him and Devlin could have played a very safe and productive ball just behind him even if he couldn't hit Smith in stride going forward, and failing that Clark has his hand up calling for it because he sees the danger.

 

It needs to be said that Youan makes a very good play on the ball and pounces on the mistake faster than probably could have been expected. But yes, I think Devlin gets the error on this one.

[Captain Lithuania]

3 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

It’s all about opinions but here is a screenshot of Toby, the tallest longest legged player at the club, at full stretch behind him to to his right trying to reach that ball.
 

I suppose, I’ll put it this way. If it was Snodgrass playing that pass it’d have been a lot more careful and precise, right into feet at the right weight giving toby enough time to control and execute, which is absolutely vital when a midfielder is playing it back to his high line Center back under pressure. That pass needs to be executed with utmost care and precision and I just felt it was careless. Too heavy and not accurate enough. Maybe “shocking” is too harsh on cammy but inaccurate, it was. 
 

Equally Sibbick probably could have tried to clear it rather than control it I can accept that. Just swung a stronger boot and dived at it to send it away somewhere. 

Devlin at fault. Had they scored it would have been Toby getting the blame too. Crazy. 

[indianajones]

It was a hospital horror pass from Devlin. Should've been easy as well. He didn't have a good game but still managed some key moments. 

 

Toby recovered from this as best as he could. Literally could not have done anything differently. 

[jr ewing]

Maybe RCB not required. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

11 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Maybe RCB not required. 

I tend to agree but depends on Halkett and Kingsley IMO. If they're both out a long time I'd rather have RCB - Sibbick - Rowles than Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane.

[ramrod]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

I tend to agree but depends on Halkett and Kingsley IMO. If they're both out a long time I'd rather have RCB - Sibbick - Rowles than Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane.

Surely to **** Kingsley can't be out long term,  it was a blow to his coupon .

I get the head injury protocol but **** sake Harings time out has got to be the exception and not the rule , surely ?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

18 minutes ago, ramrod said:

Surely to **** Kingsley can't be out long term,  it was a blow to his coupon .

I get the head injury protocol but **** sake Harings time out has got to be the exception and not the rule , surely ?

 

No idea personally but thankfully the club will know.

[Carter]

23 minutes ago, ramrod said:

Surely to **** Kingsley can't be out long term,  it was a blow to his coupon .

I get the head injury protocol but **** sake Harings time out has got to be the exception and not the rule , surely ?

Can't see Kingsley being out for any length of time. We looking very short at CH given the loss of Halkett though. One injury away from a real issue. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Carter

[Bunny Munro]

It's not a RCB we need it's a CCB. 

 

Rowles and Kingsley are both better at LCB at Cochrane is better at LWB. 

 

We shouldn't be shoehorning Rowles, Kingsley and Cochrane into the same team.

 

[DH1986]

Sibbick still looks very nervy to me. I’d still be looking for another RCB t9 come in.

 

However…..his recovery and tackle yesterday was an outstanding piece of defending. Youhan is very quick and the slide tackle had to be timed to perfection or we were facing a penalty and down to 10 men.

 

He deserved the standing ovation because it’s not often you see defenders take that chance anymore.

[hearts00]

2 minutes ago, Bunny Munro said:

It's not a RCB we need it's a CCB. 

 

Rowles and Kingsley are both better at LCB at Cochrane is better at LWB. 

 

We shouldn't be shoehorning Rowles, Kingsley and Cochrane into the same team.

 

Absolutely not. Three left footers, one LCB and two full backs. That aint going to fly. 

[Sinbad the Sailor]

FFS we win 3-0 and bellends arguing about a dodgy pass. Celebrate Toby's superb tackle ( no pun intended) and that wee Devlin did 2 belters for the first goal!

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Well yesterday does change that because before it was 1 clean sheet now it’s 2.

 

Let’s see what happens with Sibbick and Rowles playing consistently together now in front of Zander. It has been freshened up and these guys have their opportunity. 
 

Yes I’m sure we will be on the lookout for a CB but, can we get someone good enough? If it’s a loan signing, sure it could be a Dunne, but it could be a Shaughnessy.

 

I actually think we might have more use for a RB than a CB. Atkinson to me is the weak link and we had Forrest filling in there which should not happen. 
 

IMO we will get a couple of defenders in but I don’t feel a massive need to panic buy as there’s signs Sibbick and Rowles have potential there and with Lewis Neilson, why develop some other teams youth when we’ve got our own young Scotland U21 cap who can step in as the backup? 

 

2 clean sheets in 19 games doesn't change the issue that our defence has been leaking too many goals and we haven't had enough shut outs this season. 

It also doesn't change the situation that our strongest ch is Injured and struggling to recover and Kingsley is also struggling. 

 

I don't think we should panic buy ever( same with the reserve gk situation where I held my nerve and we got Clarke while others seemed to be wetting themselves daily). However I'd like a commanding ch, I think we need one if we are going to be defensively better and Halkett remains out.

 

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spacerjoe]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

I tend to agree but depends on Halkett and Kingsley IMO. If they're both out a long time I'd rather have RCB - Sibbick - Rowles than Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane.

Or Sibbick - CB - Rowles?

 

I think we need a like-for-like CB to replace Halkett.

 

Personally, I'd still rather we played Smith - Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane and have 3 in the midfield. I'm not one of those dead cert against 3 at the back, but I feel we are at our best with 3 central midfielders.

 

[GinRummy]

7 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 clean sheets in 19 games doesn't change the issue that our defence has been leaking too many goals and we haven't had enough shut outs this season. 

It also doesn't change the situation that our strongest ch is Injured and struggling to recover and Kingsley is also struggling. 

 

I don't think we should panic buy ever( same with the reserve gk situation where I held my nerve and we got Clarke while others seemed to be wetting themselves daily). However I'd like a commanding ch, I think we need one if we are going to be defensively better and Halkett remains out.

 

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Waiting for Clark was a gamble that paid off well. Still a gamble though, if Gordon had been injured between windows last season it could have been costly. Agree in general about not panic buying though. 

[spacerjoe]

6 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

 

Sibbick has definitely shown what a run in the team can do for a young player, so I'm not totally against sticking. Cochrane too is getting very used to playing LCB after looking completely lost and his positioning gets better with every game.

 

Sometimes good things happen when you are forced into situations. Just like in our admin season when we were forced to blood a lot of youngsters, when ordinarily they wouldn't have gotten a chance.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Or Sibbick - CB - Rowles?

 

I think we need a like-for-like CB to replace Halkett.

 

Personally, I'd still rather we played Smith - Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane and have 3 in the midfield. I'm not one of those dead cert against 3 at the back, but I feel we are at our best with 3 central midfielders.

 

 

I'm on the flip side—not against a back 4, but we've recruited CHs to be able to step forward out of a back 3 and it paid dividends repeatedly yesterday. The penalty was ultimately created by Cochrane dribbling forward to midfield then setting up Shankland to earn the free kick that created the stramash in the box, and so forth.

 

If we're playing a makeshift back line, a 3 man midfield works well as a substitute, but I think the CHs coming forward makes us much less predictable, more dynamic, and harder to shut down.

[Sinbad the Sailor]

14 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 clean sheets in 19 games doesn't change the issue that our defence has been leaking too many goals and we haven't had enough shut outs this season. 

It also doesn't change the situation that our strongest ch is Injured and struggling to recover and Kingsley is also struggling. 

 

I don't think we should panic buy ever( same with the reserve gk situation where I held my nerve and we got Clarke while others seemed to be wetting themselves daily). However I'd like a commanding ch, I think we need one if we are going to be defensively better and Halkett remains out.

 

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nor does it change we are comfortably in 3rd

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Waiting for Clark was a gamble that paid off well. Still a gamble though, if Gordon had been injured between windows last season it could have been costly. Agree in general about not panic buying though. 

 

Better that then panicking and signing a shite keeper that was a small upgrade or even worse than what we have.

 

Tbh, The panicking over the GK by some was brilliant reading. I had images of folk setting themselves alight and jumping through windows. 

Full threads on it, thinking Bob wasn't on the case.

Then Clarke strolls in....

 

Numbers are useless,  quality and upgrading on what we've got is the only priority outside of youth and projects, which we do not need for defence.

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, Sinbad the Sailor said:

Nor does it change we are comfortably in 3rd

 

No one is denying that, in fact some posted on jkb that this would be the case by January. 

👍

 

Defence is worse than last season and I like continuous improvement in all areas of life and work.

 

[spacerjoe]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I'm on the flip side—not against a back 4, but we've recruited CHs to be able to step forward out of a back 3 and it paid dividends repeatedly yesterday. The penalty was ultimately created by Cochrane dribbling forward to midfield then setting up Shankland to earn the free kick that created the stramash in the box, and so forth.

 

If we're playing a makeshift back line, a 3 man midfield works well as a substitute, but I think the CHs coming forward makes us much less predictable, more dynamic, and harder to shut down.

 

Depends on where the 3rd midfielder plays though.

 

If you watched much of Morocco in the WC, our mate Amrabat played that role to perfection. Sometimes he started plays where he almost looked like the 3rd defender, then 30 seconds later he was on the opposition 18 yard line.

 

The reason I'm for the 3 man midfield is that it stops us needing to have a defender step forward. You could argue its less predictable, but with players like Snodgrass and Beni it doesn't really matter. They can take the ball on the half turn easily (or more easily at the very least), draw players into them and help break the lines.

 

Hibs and St J both figured out that if you smother one of the wing backs we really struggle to get it out as the CBs are not as good in closed space and then tend to punt it. We were pegged back for long periods because of this, even though we had a free man (generally Forrest) on the other side).

 

Again, can't say its all bad as we were 2-0 up in both these games by the time this happened!

 

[Sinbad the Sailor]

So do I but let's enjoy the win first😉

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Better that then panicking and signing a shite keeper that was a small upgrade or even worse than what we have.

 

Tbh, The panicking over the GK by some was brilliant reading. I had images of folk setting themselves alight and jumping through windows. 

Full threads on it, thinking Bob wasn't on the case.

Then Clarke strolls in....

 

Numbers are useless,  quality and upgrading on what we've got is the only priority outside of youth and projects, which we do not need for defence.

 

 

 

The keeper situation worked out perfectly. I guess you can’t legislate for every eventuality but given Halkett is out for the season I’d imagine we are looking at centre backs. Like you, I’d sooner muddle through than bring in someone purely to increase the numbers but it should now be a priority. 

[Cruyff]

6 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

It’s all about opinions but here is a screenshot of Toby, the tallest longest legged player at the club, at full stretch behind him to to his right trying to reach that ball.
 

I suppose, I’ll put it this way. If it was Snodgrass playing that pass it’d have been a lot more careful and precise, right into feet at the right weight giving toby enough time to control and execute, which is absolutely vital when a midfielder is playing it back to his high line Center back under pressure. That pass needs to be executed with utmost care and precision and I just felt it was careless. Too heavy and not accurate enough. Maybe “shocking” is too harsh on cammy but inaccurate, it was. 
 

Equally Sibbick probably could have tried to clear it rather than control it I can accept that. Just swung a stronger boot and dived at it to send it away somewhere. 

100% Devlin's passing was a bit off the boil last night, including this suicide ball to Sibbick. Big Toby got us out of jail though, an unbelievable tackle. 

[Cruyff]

30 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

Or Sibbick - CB - Rowles?

 

I think we need a like-for-like CB to replace Halkett.

 

Personally, I'd still rather we played Smith - Sibbick - Rowles - Cochrane and have 3 in the midfield. I'm not one of those dead cert against 3 at the back, but I feel we are at our best with 3 central midfielders.

 

We do play that. It's not a back 3 when defending, it's a back 4. 

[Chillidigits]

3 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

It was also a daft pass.

 

Tbf, everyone was guilty of it, our passing and decision making was shite, from Mckay trying the glory ball to Devlin just unable to pass it ten yards.

 

We couldn't pass a jobbie yesterday. 

 

3-0 tho.🤣🤣

 

If our passing had been better we'd have been unhappy with just three.

[Chillidigits]

20 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

100% Devlin's passing was a bit off the boil last night, including this suicide ball to Sibbick. Big Toby got us out of jail though, an unbelievable tackle. 

Robbie's been showing him video of his one against Gretna, "That's how it's done lad "

[spacerjoe]

27 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

We do play that. It's not a back 3 when defending, it's a back 4. 

 

For sure, sometimes Sibbick / Cochrane would push wide to cover WBs; sometimes (like they were most of yesterday) they were all in the box.

 

There are many transitions during a match depending on where players are returning from and the 3 makes us flexible, especially having players like Sibbick and Cochrane who are at ease at FB also.

 

However, my preference was for a back 4 from an attacking sense, not defending.

[briever]

6 hours ago, hisnameis said:

Looked to me like a bad ball from Devlin. Too hard and wide of his man. Not his only poor pass in the game. Thought he was pretty poor other than his chase down for the first goal.

Indeed, Devlin was keek for most of the match, his pass to sibbick was a shocker.

 

Devlin is more of an impact player IMV, when Beni is back that’s what he will be.

[Ked]

1 minute ago, briever said:

Indeed, Devlin was keek for most of the match, his pass to sibbick was a shocker.

 

Devlin is more of an impact player IMV, when Beni is back that’s what he will be.

He wasn't at his best agreed.

Only his tenacity set up the first.

Broke up hibs play .

Linked well AGAIN with Snoddy.

He was miles away from being keek.

Country miles

He's nowhere near just being an impact player.

 

 

[OTT]

19 minutes ago, Ked said:

He wasn't at his best agreed.

Only his tenacity set up the first.

Broke up hibs play .

Linked well AGAIN with Snoddy.

He was miles away from being keek.

Country miles

He's nowhere near just being an impact player.

 

 

 

We really need to get the laddie set up on a new contract, I don't want us to get into next season with him and Beni with just a year left since we know what will happen. Lee Johnsons comments on Porteous ring true here too. He'd said why was he not offered an extension 2 and half years ago. Well, this is that time for Cammy. He's got a lot still to work on, but for the reasons you highlight (tenacity, breaking up play etc) we need to get him to commit his future to the club. He's only going to get better and with the money earned from Europe, now is the time to tie down key players on long term deals. 

 

 

If his passing was better and his play in the final 3rd was more composed, he'd probably be looking at a good move, but right now his best place to develop is here. That can't be at the cost of losing him for free next season though, the club need to get a deal sorted before doing a deal becomes impossible. Even if its just a two year extension. 

 

[Ked]

10 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

We really need to get the laddie set up on a new contract, I don't want us to get into next season with him and Beni with just a year left since we know what will happen. Lee Johnsons comments on Porteous ring true here too. He'd said why was he not offered an extension 2 and half years ago. Well, this is that time for Cammy. He's got a lot still to work on, but for the reasons you highlight (tenacity, breaking up play etc) we need to get him to commit his future to the club. He's only going to get better and with the money earned from Europe, now is the time to tie down key players on long term deals. 

 

 

If his passing was better and his play in the final 3rd was more composed, he'd probably be looking at a good move, but right now his best place to develop is here. That can't be at the cost of losing him for free next season though, the club need to get a deal sorted before doing a deal becomes impossible. Even if its just a two year extension. 

 

Spot on mate.

[fila]

46 minutes ago, briever said:

Indeed, Devlin was keek for most of the match, his pass to sibbick was a shocker.

 

Devlin is more of an impact player IMV, when Beni is back that’s what he will be.

 

Devlin also set us on the way to winning the game .

 

Pass to TB wasn’t great , however the resulting recovering tackle was outstanding and will give TB a whole amount of confidence 

[Mr Elwood P]

3 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

Here's a few more screen shots.

 

Here's the ball when Devlin plays it.

 

 

And here's a half second later:

 

 

What you can see is that Sibbick was expecting the ball but he was leaning to his left so all his weight is over his left foot. Devlin needs to see that and play it away from Youan and towards the other side where Cochrane is there in case of disaster. It's hard to show in the stills but Sibbick has to take a shuffle step to the right just to nearly get his foot on it, so yes, it's both to the wrong side and a yard too far. It probably shouldn't have come in so hot but Devlin is clearly already worried about Youan closing down.

 

The safe play there is that Michael Smith is pushing up the field behind him and Devlin could have played a very safe and productive ball just behind him even if he couldn't hit Smith in stride going forward, and failing that Clark has his hand up calling for it because he sees the danger.

 

It needs to be said that Youan makes a very good play on the ball and pounces on the mistake faster than probably could have been expected. But yes, I think Devlin gets the error on this one.

Can't believe you've taken time out your day, to pinpoint which Hearts player was at fault, for an incident that didn't lead to a goal. Bizzare.

 

1 hour ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 clean sheets in 19 games doesn't change the issue that our defence has been leaking too many goals and we haven't had enough shut outs this season. 

It also doesn't change the situation that our strongest ch is Injured and struggling to recover and Kingsley is also struggling. 

 

I don't think we should panic buy ever( same with the reserve gk situation where I held my nerve and we got Clarke while others seemed to be wetting themselves daily). However I'd like a commanding ch, I think we need one if we are going to be defensively better and Halkett remains out.

 

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You didn't 'hold your nerve' FFS. You were in no way involved in the process. You were just sat waiting like the rest of us!

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, spacerjoe said:

 

Depends on where the 3rd midfielder plays though.

 

If you watched much of Morocco in the WC, our mate Amrabat played that role to perfection. Sometimes he started plays where he almost looked like the 3rd defender, then 30 seconds later he was on the opposition 18 yard line.

 

The reason I'm for the 3 man midfield is that it stops us needing to have a defender step forward. You could argue its less predictable, but with players like Snodgrass and Beni it doesn't really matter. They can take the ball on the half turn easily (or more easily at the very least), draw players into them and help break the lines.

 

Hibs and St J both figured out that if you smother one of the wing backs we really struggle to get it out as the CBs are not as good in closed space and then tend to punt it. We were pegged back for long periods because of this, even though we had a free man (generally Forrest) on the other side).

 

Again, can't say its all bad as we were 2-0 up in both these games by the time this happened!

 

You say that the midfield three stops us from "needing" to have a defender step forward, but to me it's much more of a feature than a constraint. Take Kingsley for instance—he's an excellent defender but he'll frankly be unhappy if his only job is to sit centrally and soak up pressure. Last season our starting back 3 got 13 goals, including 7 from Kingsley, tying him with Simms for second in goals. When I've brought this up before, folk have said, "well you shouldn't need your defenders scoring for you." Well why not? And it's a big part of what I think Robbie is trying to do.

 

His first time with us, I think he started out in a 4-4-2 before settling into more of a 4-2-3-1, but in both cases everything built through a midfield pair (Gomis and Buaben originally, then added Pallardo and Kitchen, and so forth). That worked really well until opposing defences realized that if they played ball-denial to the CMs, our passing game broke down and our CHs ended up trying to lump it to Sow or Juanma or Sammon or whoever was up top.

 

Yes, one option is to go to a midfield 3, but then you also start crowding out the room for the fullbacks to get forward, and I think you get less contribution from them because they end up playing level with or behind the mid 3.

 

The 3-4-3 does effectively turn us into a back 5 at times, but that's only a problem if the back 3 never leave. But players like Souttar, Kingsley, Rowles, Sibbick, Neilson, Smith, Cochrane, and even Halkett (though he does it less) are good with the ball at their feet and like a goal given the chance. Why put their feet in cement along the back line?

 

Multiple times in this system, and certainly happened yesterday before the second goal but also at other times, a team will match-press our midfield and try to press the defenders. Whether that's in a back 4 or a back 3, that either ends up in the passes around the back that part of our support hate so much or the lumps up the park that other parts of the support hate. Before the penalty, Cochrane got into that situation where his main passing options were pressed, so carried the ball forward. Halliday rotated in behind him to provide defensive cover. Hibs' midfielders were all trying to cut off the passing game, so Cochrane had an alley a mile wide to come forward 30-40 yards. Because most presses don't account for that, it suddenly sends the defence into a panicked scramble. Shankland dropped back a tad, Cochrane hit him in a dangerous space, and as he turned upfield to attack he got fouled. Free kick, disallowed goal, penalty, 2-0.

 

I see your point about other teams pressing the wingbacks, but to me that's been a problem mostly because we've been playing musical chairs along the back line due to injury. Halliday and Smith had it fully under control (Smith's ability to take a pass to break pressure is his #1 asset for us right now IMO) but with Atkinson turned inside out and Forrest playing much deeper than he's used to, we struggled without their safety valves. But to me that's more about the wingbacks being in emergency cover situations more than the system itself.

[OTT]

2 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

2 clean sheets in 19 games doesn't change the issue that our defence has been leaking too many goals and we haven't had enough shut outs this season. 

It also doesn't change the situation that our strongest ch is Injured and struggling to recover and Kingsley is also struggling. 

 

I don't think we should panic buy ever( same with the reserve gk situation where I held my nerve and we got Clarke while others seemed to be wetting themselves daily). However I'd like a commanding ch, I think we need one if we are going to be defensively better and Halkett remains out.

 

If we can't get better go with what we've got,  Neilson and Sibbick will benefit long term even if they have brain farts this season from time to time.

 

Agree, not just the lack of clean sheets, its the volume of shots Gordon was having to deal with too. Far too many opportunities for opposing teams. I suppose part of that can be chalked up to our injury list and replacement players having confidence issues/inexperience. 

 

Two players I think we should be looking at our Michael Hector and Steven Caulker. Both big laddies, plenty of experience and have experience of Scottish football. Either would be exactly what we've been looking for, even just on a deal to the end of the season. Neither have a club currently, so no stupid transfer fee to pay either. Makes so much sense to me. Aware both have played in leagues where money is pretty dominant (Championship for Hector and Turkey for Caulker). Strange neither have found a club, but think either player would be what we've missed by losing Halks.

 

Sibbick clearly a viable option too and if we did the above, Robbie could experiment rotating Kingsley out and having Sibbick Hector/Caulker and Rowles as our back 3 with form dictating the starting trio. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

10 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Can't believe you've taken time out your day, to pinpoint which Hearts player was at fault, for an incident that didn't lead to a goal. Bizzare.

 

 

Much of JKB must be completely mystifying to you then, friend.

[Ked]

14 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Can't believe you've taken time out your day, to pinpoint which Hearts player was at fault, for an incident that didn't lead to a goal. Bizzare.

 

That's nothing I've did the square root of nothing today.

Except read here and the beauty thats hibsnet.

 

14 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

You didn't 'hold your nerve' FFS. You were in no way involved in the process. You were just sat waiting like the rest of us!

 

🤣

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Much of JKB must be completely mystifying to you then, friend.

Whoever was at fault I celebrated that tackle .

Just really pleased for Sibbick.

 

[OTT]

9 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

You say that the midfield three stops us from "needing" to have a defender step forward, but to me it's much more of a feature than a constraint. Take Kingsley for instance—he's an excellent defender but he'll frankly be unhappy if his only job is to sit centrally and soak up pressure. Last season our starting back 3 got 13 goals, including 7 from Kingsley, tying him with Simms for second in goals. When I've brought this up before, folk have said, "well you shouldn't need your defenders scoring for you." Well why not? And it's a big part of what I think Robbie is trying to do.

 

His first time with us, I think he started out in a 4-4-2 before settling into more of a 4-2-3-1, but in both cases everything built through a midfield pair (Gomis and Buaben originally, then added Pallardo and Kitchen, and so forth). That worked really well until opposing defences realized that if they played ball-denial to the CMs, our passing game broke down and our CHs ended up trying to lump it to Sow or Juanma or Sammon or whoever was up top.

 

Yes, one option is to go to a midfield 3, but then you also start crowding out the room for the fullbacks to get forward, and I think you get less contribution from them because they end up playing level with or behind the mid 3.

 

The 3-4-3 does effectively turn us into a back 5 at times, but that's only a problem if the back 3 never leave. But players like Souttar, Kingsley, Rowles, Sibbick, Neilson, Smith, Cochrane, and even Halkett (though he does it less) are good with the ball at their feet and like a goal given the chance. Why put their feet in cement along the back line?

 

Multiple times in this system, and certainly happened yesterday before the second goal but also at other times, a team will match-press our midfield and try to press the defenders. Whether that's in a back 4 or a back 3, that either ends up in the passes around the back that part of our support hate so much or the lumps up the park that other parts of the support hate. Before the penalty, Cochrane got into that situation where his main passing options were pressed, so carried the ball forward. Halliday rotated in behind him to provide defensive cover. Hibs' midfielders were all trying to cut off the passing game, so Cochrane had an alley a mile wide to come forward 30-40 yards. Because most presses don't account for that, it suddenly sends the defence into a panicked scramble. Shankland dropped back a tad, Cochrane hit him in a dangerous space, and as he turned upfield to attack he got fouled. Free kick, disallowed goal, penalty, 2-0.

 

I see your point about other teams pressing the wingbacks, but to me that's been a problem mostly because we've been playing musical chairs along the back line due to injury. Halliday and Smith had it fully under control (Smith's ability to take a pass to break pressure is his #1 asset for us right now IMO) but with Atkinson turned inside out and Forrest playing much deeper than he's used to, we struggled without their safety valves. But to me that's more about the wingbacks being in emergency cover situations more than the system itself.

 

Got to say, I prefer a stacked midfield. Over the years, its looked like finding players to comfortably play in a back 3 isn't entirely straight forward, on top of that wingbacks are a weird position. You're essentially looking for wingers with an engine but can tackle. Where as we appear to have 3 really good full backs in Kingsley, Cochrane and Smith. Finding proper wingbacks seems tough. 

 

Also think a 433 means our front 3 doesn't change and we get to have a midfield of Beni, Devlin and Snodgrass. With Halliday ready and willing to come in if form or injuries causes us any issues. 

 

Maybe presents a problem on the Cochrane/Kingsley front but having that extra man in midfield seems more beneficial overall. 

[briever]

4 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Maybe RCB not required. 

And if Sibbick gets injured?

[Bazzas right boot]

29 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Can't believe you've taken time out your day, to pinpoint which Hearts player was at fault, for an incident that didn't lead to a goal. Bizzare.

 

 

You didn't 'hold your nerve' FFS. You were in no way involved in the process. You were just sat waiting like the rest of us!

 

 

I did.

fan's can be nervous or otherwise.

You can sit, wait and be nervous.  Several were clearly flapping. Re visit the gk thread(s).

I even mentioned ZC coming in at the end.

 

Just like the panic early on when folk were flapping and I said we'd be 3rd by January. 

 

Cool as a cucumber,  me.👍

 

[briever]

42 minutes ago, fila said:

 

Devlin also set us on the way to winning the game .

 

Pass to TB wasn’t great , however the resulting recovering tackle was outstanding and will give TB a whole amount of confidence 

I know his play made the first goal, but he was throwing himself to the ground and getting no fouls - losing possession - poor passing, he had a poor match.  When Beni is fit Devlin will be be fighting for a start from the bench IMO.

[spacerjoe]

8 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

You say that the midfield three stops us from "needing" to have a defender step forward, but to me it's much more of a feature than a constraint. Take Kingsley for instance—he's an excellent defender but he'll frankly be unhappy if his only job is to sit centrally and soak up pressure. Last season our starting back 3 got 13 goals, including 7 from Kingsley, tying him with Simms for second in goals. When I've brought this up before, folk have said, "well you shouldn't need your defenders scoring for you." Well why not? And it's a big part of what I think Robbie is trying to do.

 

His first time with us, I think he started out in a 4-4-2 before settling into more of a 4-2-3-1, but in both cases everything built through a midfield pair (Gomis and Buaben originally, then added Pallardo and Kitchen, and so forth). That worked really well until opposing defences realized that if they played ball-denial to the CMs, our passing game broke down and our CHs ended up trying to lump it to Sow or Juanma or Sammon or whoever was up top.

 

Yes, one option is to go to a midfield 3, but then you also start crowding out the room for the fullbacks to get forward, and I think you get less contribution from them because they end up playing level with or behind the mid 3.

 

The 3-4-3 does effectively turn us into a back 5 at times, but that's only a problem if the back 3 never leave. But players like Souttar, Kingsley, Rowles, Sibbick, Neilson, Smith, Cochrane, and even Halkett (though he does it less) are good with the ball at their feet and like a goal given the chance. Why put their feet in cement along the back line?

 

Multiple times in this system, and certainly happened yesterday before the second goal but also at other times, a team will match-press our midfield and try to press the defenders. Whether that's in a back 4 or a back 3, that either ends up in the passes around the back that part of our support hate so much or the lumps up the park that other parts of the support hate. Before the penalty, Cochrane got into that situation where his main passing options were pressed, so carried the ball forward. Halliday rotated in behind him to provide defensive cover. Hibs' midfielders were all trying to cut off the passing game, so Cochrane had an alley a mile wide to come forward 30-40 yards. Because most presses don't account for that, it suddenly sends the defence into a panicked scramble. Shankland dropped back a tad, Cochrane hit him in a dangerous space, and as he turned upfield to attack he got fouled. Free kick, disallowed goal, penalty, 2-0.

 

I see your point about other teams pressing the wingbacks, but to me that's been a problem mostly because we've been playing musical chairs along the back line due to injury. Halliday and Smith had it fully under control (Smith's ability to take a pass to break pressure is his #1 asset for us right now IMO) but with Atkinson turned inside out and Forrest playing much deeper than he's used to, we struggled without their safety valves. But to me that's more about the wingbacks being in emergency cover situations more than the system itself.

 

I don't think the CBs have to be planted in cement if your system is fluid enough.

 

3 midfielders also don't need to crowd out the full backs if your system is fluid enough - Liverpool for the last 5 or 6 seasons have had 2 fullbacks in the top 10 for assists and/or goals playing 4-3-3.

 

We played 3-4-3 most of last season very successfully until around the turn of the year. Then, after a poor run of results, we switched back to 4-2-3-1 and they improved. Was it because teams figured us out too? We didn't really go back to 3-4-3 much after that.

 

It might not be a 'problem' with the formation anyway and more that we lack the concentration to be that dynamic over 90 mins. We suffered with the enforced changes against Hibs, but the same thing happened vs St Johnstone regardless of any injuries. I also think we didn't really play that well against Hibs in spite of the scoreline - we weren't cutting through them like we did against Zurich for example, playing 4-2-3-1 (still the best I've seen us play this season) or against Celtic or Dundee Utd.

 

This is probably the wrong thread for such a discussion anyway as its about Sibbick (someone I was very confident would come good and is definitely heading that way). I'm also very happy with the 3-4-3 as it stands - just a personal preference.

 

 

 

 

[LochcarronJambo]

Devlin was up & down , with his performance, his pass back to Sibbick was too hard, but Sibbick attempted touch wasn’t good but the recovery was sensational