Toby Sibbick ( merged )

[Martin_T]

3 hours ago, DH1986 said:

Sibbick still looks very nervy to me. I’d still be looking for another RCB t9 come in.

 

However…..his recovery and tackle yesterday was an outstanding piece of defending. Youhan is very quick and the slide tackle had to be timed to perfection or we were facing a penalty and down to 10 men.

 

He deserved the standing ovation because it’s not often you see defenders take that chance anymore.

 

Can you cite an example of this 'nervy' play?

 

To be honest, I find it utterly baffling that anyone can hold that perspective.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

6 minutes ago, spacerjoe said:

 

I don't think the CBs have to be planted in cement if your system is fluid enough.

 

3 midfielders also don't need to crowd out the full backs if your system is fluid enough - Liverpool for the last 5 or 6 seasons have had 2 fullbacks in the top 10 for assists and/or goals playing 4-3-3.

 

We played 3-4-3 most of last season very successfully until around the turn of the year. Then, after a poor run of results, we switched back to 4-2-3-1 and they improved. Was it because teams figured us out too? We didn't really go back to 3-4-3 much after that.

 

It might not be a 'problem' with the formation anyway and more that we lack the concentration to be that dynamic over 90 mins. We suffered with the enforced changes against Hibs, but the same thing happened vs St Johnstone regardless of any injuries. I also think we didn't really play that well against Hibs in spite of the scoreline - we weren't cutting through them like we did against Zurich for example, playing 4-2-3-1 (still the best I've seen us play this season) or against Celtic or Dundee Utd.

 

This is probably the wrong thread for such a discussion anyway as its about Sibbick (someone I was very confident would come good and is definitely heading that way). I'm also very happy with the 3-4-3 as it stands - just a personal preference.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought we did the back 4 last season mostly when Souttar was injured and Sibbick was still settling in, and also to get the 3-1 up front which worked for Boyce and Simms. I just checked and we used a back 3 to beat Hibs in the final game before the split, but did a 4-2-3-1 a month earlier against Aberdeen (but with Souttar in the lineup, so go figure). So at any rate, whatever the reasons, we mixed them both up with some success last season.

 

And agreed to wind it up. Sibbick is playing extremely well right now and shouldn't be dropped IMO.

[Mr Elwood P]

47 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

That's nothing I've did the square root of nothing today.

Except read here and the beauty thats hibsnet.

 

🤣

I'm having a lovely time on Hibs.net tonight!

[Ked]

33 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Can you cite an example of this 'nervy' play?

 

To be honest, I find it utterly baffling that anyone can hold that perspective.

Maybe change that to confidence some supporters feel.

And that he felt (Sibbick)

He looked like he enjoyed the rightful praise he got from the stands at the end.There is more to come from Sibbick I feel.Really a very important player for us.

 

 

[Ked]

21 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

I'm having a lovely time on Hibs.net tonight!

Took a wee break but going back soon.

There was a nice wee thread just started about their 2022 accounts.

😙😙

[Yoda]

49 minutes ago, Ked said:

Took a wee break but going back soon.

There was a nice wee thread just started about their 2022 accounts.

😙😙

Did the accounts explain why they report "bigger attendances" than us, but their match day income in far lower?

 

Something smells fishy.

[briever]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

 

Can you cite an example of this 'nervy' play?

 

To be honest, I find it utterly baffling that anyone can hold that perspective.

I think Sibbick has got rid of that side of his game, clearly a confidence issue.

[briever]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I thought we did the back 4 last season mostly when Souttar was injured and Sibbick was still settling in, and also to get the 3-1 up front which worked for Boyce and Simms. I just checked and we used a back 3 to beat Hibs in the final game before the split, but did a 4-2-3-1 a month earlier against Aberdeen (but with Souttar in the lineup, so go figure). So at any rate, whatever the reasons, we mixed them both up with some success last season.

 

And agreed to wind it up. Sibbick is playing extremely well right now and shouldn't be dropped IMO.

There is nobody to drop him for, he also fits perfectly into a back 3 or 4.

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, briever said:

And if Sibbick gets injured?

Or suspended 🤷‍♂️

[Cruyff]

3 hours ago, spacerjoe said:

 

For sure, sometimes Sibbick / Cochrane would push wide to cover WBs; sometimes (like they were most of yesterday) they were all in the box.

 

There are many transitions during a match depending on where players are returning from and the 3 makes us flexible, especially having players like Sibbick and Cochrane who are at ease at FB also.

 

However, my preference was for a back 4 from an attacking sense, not defending.

Why? 

 

When we build from the back in a 3, we have 7 players further forward. It's more attacking and it can be a 4 or 5 when Defending. 3-4-3 is the best formation in football. 

[tazhearts]

Big Toby has physical attributes to become a great central defender.  He is fast, tall and well built.

 

However there are still a lot of areas he needs to work on:

 

1. Heading. For someone his height he needs to learn to be more dominant on the ball.

 

2. Aggressiveness. 

 

3. Passing. He needs to perfect the John Soutar esque 50 yard cross field ping to Barry McKay's feet.

[alicante jambo]

If an english premiership player made that tackle it would have been shown about 50 times on sky. It was a world class tackle by toby. Boy has come on so much and long may it continue.

[fila]

12 hours ago, briever said:

I know his play made the first goal, but he was throwing himself to the ground and getting no fouls - losing possession - poor passing, he had a poor match.  When Beni is fit Devlin will be be fighting for a start from the bench IMO.

He wasn’t that bad . In game we won 3-0 , and again due to him chasing a last ball then for me all good. When Beni is fit "………. Will leave it there , until then  Devlin keep chasing and harassing 

[PapaShango]

6 minutes ago, alicante jambo said:

If an english premiership player made that tackle it would have been shown about 50 times on sky. It was a world class tackle by toby. Boy has come on so much and long may it continue.

Was a cracking tackle. I was behind the goals and was looking at the Hibs player so didn't even notice Sibbick getting back. 

 

Just shows what a run of games and some confidence can do to a player. He looked lost up until probably the RFS game at home but ever since then has improved massively. Long may it continue. Got to give a bit of credit to the management staff as well, they seem to have managed him very well considering the flack he was under for such a young lad. He has cut out a lot of the sloppy mistakes where he was getting caught trying to over play at times (semi final last season). I noticed on Monday a few times he was in the same situation as that and just cleared his lines. As well as the tackle in the first half he had a cracking one in the second half and put in countless blocks to stop crosses coming in. 

[spacerjoe]

10 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Why? 

 

When we build from the back in a 3, we have 7 players further forward. It's more attacking and it can be a 4 or 5 when Defending. 3-4-3 is the best formation in football. 

 

I was a staunch defender of 3-4-3 last season when many seemed to be calling for 4-4-2 even when we were on a good run. The missing link for me at that point was replacing Smith as he wasn't good enough in any attacking sense or athletic enough to keep going for 90. I was delighted when we signed Atkinson, although it hasn't really worked out for him yet.

 

3-4-3 is completely reliant on the WBs - its the most important position in the team as they are meant to carry the attacking threat by providing constant width in attack. Having an LCB and RCB who are good on the ball allows them to double up on the wings, keeping a high press to retain the ball and allowing the front 3 to be more narrow and cause havoc in the middle. Kingsley and Souttar were adept at this - Sibbick and now Cochrane are getting that way too. The last 2 matches this has worked well - St J game especially was fantastic to watch.

 

The issue for me is that we're missing players in the WB position who are good enough (athletic, good in possession) to make this work for an entire match. We also need more of a midfield enforcer to drop back when the LCB and RCBs are pushed up - something Beni did very well, but Devlin isn't doing well enough and Snodgrass cannot do at all. We start leaving gaps the longer the game goes on and are then pushed back as the defenders move back into their natural positions.

 

Teams are also recognising the weakness on the wings and smothering one side. Hibs and St J did this very effectively for most of their second halves against us.

 

As I already mentioned earlier in the thread 4 of the top 5 performances for me this season have come playing a 4 at the back. This might be changing now of course and a couple of good signings could make 3-4-3 work really well again.

 

 

[alicante jambo]

17 minutes ago, PapaShango said:

Was a cracking tackle. I was behind the goals and was looking at the Hibs player so didn't even notice Sibbick getting back. 

 

Just shows what a run of games and some confidence can do to a player. He looked lost up until probably the RFS game at home but ever since then has improved massively. Long may it continue. Got to give a bit of credit to the management staff as well, they seem to have managed him very well considering the flack he was under for such a young lad. He has cut out a lot of the sloppy mistakes where he was getting caught trying to over play at times (semi final last season). I noticed on Monday a few times he was in the same situation as that and just cleared his lines. As well as the tackle in the first half he had a cracking one in the second half and put in countless blocks to stop crosses coming in. 

Brilliant summary papa. He had a smile like a cheshire cat at the end of the game and quite right too.

[Rogue Daddy]

14 minutes ago, PapaShango said:

Was a cracking tackle. I was behind the goals and was looking at the Hibs player so didn't even notice Sibbick getting back. 

 

Just shows what a run of games and some confidence can do to a player. He looked lost up until probably the RFS game at home but ever since then has improved massively. Long may it continue. Got to give a bit of credit to the management staff as well, they seem to have managed him very well considering the flack he was under for such a young lad. He has cut out a lot of the sloppy mistakes where he was getting caught trying to over play at times (semi final last season). I noticed on Monday a few times he was in the same situation as that and just cleared his lines. As well as the tackle in the first half he had a cracking one in the second half and put in countless blocks to stop crosses coming in. 

Totally agree, the lad had a cracking game... and his turn of pace is fantastic. Youan is very quick and Toby gave him him a start but he still managed to catch him and make THAT tackle. Class! 

I've never seen him as centre-back but he's (thankfully) proving me wrong... I also think he'd make a cracking RWB. Certainly has the engine and pace.

[Cruyff]

6 hours ago, spacerjoe said:

 

I was a staunch defender of 3-4-3 last season when many seemed to be calling for 4-4-2 even when we were on a good run. The missing link for me at that point was replacing Smith as he wasn't good enough in any attacking sense or athletic enough to keep going for 90. I was delighted when we signed Atkinson, although it hasn't really worked out for him yet.

 

3-4-3 is completely reliant on the WBs - its the most important position in the team as they are meant to carry the attacking threat by providing constant width in attack. Having an LCB and RCB who are good on the ball allows them to double up on the wings, keeping a high press to retain the ball and allowing the front 3 to be more narrow and cause havoc in the middle. Kingsley and Souttar were adept at this - Sibbick and now Cochrane are getting that way too. The last 2 matches this has worked well - St J game especially was fantastic to watch.

 

The issue for me is that we're missing players in the WB position who are good enough (athletic, good in possession) to make this work for an entire match. We also need more of a midfield enforcer to drop back when the LCB and RCBs are pushed up - something Beni did very well, but Devlin isn't doing well enough and Snodgrass cannot do at all. We start leaving gaps the longer the game goes on and are then pushed back as the defenders move back into their natural positions.

 

Teams are also recognising the weakness on the wings and smothering one side. Hibs and St J did this very effectively for most of their second halves against us.

 

As I already mentioned earlier in the thread 4 of the top 5 performances for me this season have come playing a 4 at the back. This might be changing now of course and a couple of good signings could make 3-4-3 work really well again.

 

 

 

Good post but surely rattling Hibs and beating our boggie team St Johnstone away for the 1st time in 10 years rank in our top 5 performances this season? 

 

I get what you're saying about WB's and I agree to an extent that we probably need 1 attack minded WB that almost plays as a winger at times to achieve a better balance. 

 

Our balance on the left of a 3-4-3 is as good as it gets for us with Cochrane at LWB and Kingsley at LCB . Alex has a great engine and positional intelligence at LWB & Kingsley can provide attacking overloads from LCB. Ahead of them they have McKay at LW. 

 

It's the RWB position that we can improve. That's no sleight on Smithy who has been a brilliant player for us but he isn't getting any younger . 

 

I can see what you're saying about Devlin and Snodgrass as well but again, we're not going to get much better than that.

 

We need to have control in possession, it's not just about having the athleticism and the positional awareness to transition from defence to attack and vice versa. Snoddy gives us that control but if he still had the legs he had in his youth he'd still be in the EPL and if Devlin had Snoddy's ability on the ball, he'd be in the EPL as well! Devlin is Snoddy's legs and Snoddy is the brains and ability. Devlin puts in a shift but aye he gets thrown about like an empty tracksuit sometimes because of his stature.

 

Ultimately though, the back 3 we play isn't a rigid 3-4-3 and at times appears as a back 4, depending on the phase of play, with Smithy dropping back to RB and the LCB on the opposite side becoming the LB. That's why I don't get it when folk moan about it 

 

We need to find the perfect balance to play it and I don't think we're 100% there yet but I think it's strengths negate it's weaknesses more so than any other formation. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Cruyff

[spacerjoe]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

 

Good post but surely rattling Hibs and beating our boggie team St Johnstone away for the 1st time in 10 years rank in our top 5 performances this season? 

 

I get what you're saying about WB's and I agree to an extent that we probably need 1 attack minded WB that almost plays as a winger at times to achieve a better balance. 

 

Our balance on the left of a 3-4-3 is as good as it gets for us with Cochrane at LWB and Kingsley at LCB . Alex has a great engine and positional intelligence at LWB & Kingsley can provide attacking overloads from LCB. Ahead of them they have McKay at LW. 

 

It's the RWB position that we can improve. That's no sleight on Smithy who has been a brilliant player for us but he isn't getting any younger . 

 

I can see what you're saying about Devlin and Snodgrass as well but again, we're not going to get much better than that.

 

We need to have control in possession, it's not just about having the athleticism and the positional awareness to transition from defence to attack and vice versa. Snoddy gives us that control but if he still had the legs he had in his youth he'd still be in the EPL and if Devlin had Snoddy's ability on the ball, he'd be in the EPL as well! Devlin is Snoddy's legs and Snoddy is the brains and ability. Devlin puts in a shift but aye he gets thrown about like an empty tracksuit sometimes because of his stature.

 

Ultimately though, the back 3 we play isn't a rigid 3-4-3 and at times appears as a back 4, depending on the phase of play, with Smithy dropping back to RB and the LCB on the opposite side becoming the LB. That's why I don't get it when folk moan about it 

 

We need to find the perfect balance to play it and I don't think we're 100% there yet but I think it's strengths negate it's weaknesses more so than any other formation. 

St J was the 1 from 5, but against Hibs the performance wasn't top 5 for me. Result however.... Best of the season!

 

Don't disagree with what you are saying and hence why I'd hoped Atkinson would be the one. Hopefully he still can.

 

And I'm praying Beni comes back unscathed. I'd love to see him and Snodgrass together in a 3-4-3. Both can control the ball well in tight situations and could balance each others strengths.

 

On the whole, whichever way we play it's looking very good again!

 

 

[Scott Monument]

Sibbick is the type of player who thrives on confidence and also

an extended run in the first team

[tartofmidlothian]

Very solid tonight against St Mirren, he's beginning to inspire real confidence as a defender.

[Bungalow Bill]

He needs to cut out the brain farts. 

[Dick Dastardly]

3 minutes ago, tartofmidlothian said:

Very solid tonight against St Mirren, he's beginning to inspire real confidence as a defender.

A couple of dodgy moments but he has definitely turned a corner. He is looking like the player we expected. Good on him for turning it around

[hearts00]

Well done Toby. Much improved and looking the part. 

[campbell]

I get the reason we push the two other centre backs wide & high to allow the wingback to move onto midfield but all it takes is a bit of a mistake from him & at mirren are in, it’s a lot of pressure to be so spot on all the time he probably was in the top 3 for passes/touches tonight & that concerns me 

[OTT]

Doing really well, bad moment towards the end but I think it about summed up the teams performance. Slack. 

 

We need an experienced head in that back line. Sibbick is a confidence player, and if he does that against Rangers, Celtic, Hibs or Aberdeen, we get punished and his confidence nose dives and we're back to the problems we had earlier in the season. I'd rather be safe than sorry here, and bringing in an experienced and dominant central defender is crucial IMO. 

 

Again, he's doing really well and you can see he will mature into an excellent CB. We should even be thinking about a new contract. The development in him is evident and if he stays here, he will become a mainstay in our team for years to come. 

[Section Q]

Master of the last ditch tackle.....

[RS86]

Another solid performance tonight. His improved form has more than made up for missing Halkett this season. Really liked the look of Hill too and Rowles is excellent.

[indianajones]

Starting to think he has brainfarts on purpose so he can show how good he is at last ditch defending.

 

Apart from that slight error he was again solid. 

[Hungry hippo]

Was very good again. Only made one mistake and sorted it himself.

[Ked]

He looks settle now.

Always stays back to soak up the place .

I really think he will get better and more commanding.

 

[superjack]

I think when Kingsley is back in the team, Toby will go to RCB. Hill is there to cover and challenge for a place.

[BigAlim]

PHM

[jamboinglasgow]

Has established himself well and shown his worth in recent months, yes he has the odd mistake but he is fantastic and recovering back.

 

Thats now 2 clean sheets in 3 games where he has been playing. With Hill doing so well and Rowles being Rowles, they can build a strong defence (with Kingsley still to come in.)

[PhoenixHearts]

2 hours ago, Bungalow Bill said:

He needs to cut out the brain farts. 

 

Tbf I thought the ball for that pass back took a wee bobble up off the turf and that's why he didn't hit it cleanly.

[davemclaren]

Pressley was a master of the recovery tackle, which made him very popular. Sibbick might be going the same way. 😄

[I P Knightley]

18 minutes ago, PhoenixHearts said:

 

Tbf I thought the ball for that pass back took a wee bobble up off the turf and that's why he didn't hit it cleanly.

I thought he'd lifted his head to see where would be safe to pass it back for Zander and just got his timing a bit wrong. Heart in mouth stuff due to the stage in the game but overall he looked calm and in control. Very reassuring. 

[Tynecastle Valhalla]

Becoming one of the first names on the team sheet nowadays. Long may it continue.

[DesertDawg]

Kept his head when it was easy to panic.

[Spellczech]

Getting some real pace in the side now after several years of having none anywhere on the pitch. Makes such a big difference...

[PhoenixHearts]

43 minutes ago, DesertDawg said:

Kept his head when it was easy to panic.

 

He's becoming very assured. Just like with Devlin's horror pass in the derby, the old Sibbick could have panicked or worse his head may have dropped entirely.

 

One of the most overlooked qualities for a top defender is calmness and composure.

His confidence seems to be growing with each game and he's starting to understand that while he won't always come out on top, he knows he has the ability to do so.

[No Idle Talk]

He's as good on the ball as John Souttar was. 

 

There. I said it.

[RobNox]

7 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

He's as good on the ball as John Souttar was. 

 

There. I said it.

His pass for Smith's goal was brilliant, as was Smith's first touch to control the ball

[Riccarton3]

How long is he contracted to?

[RustyRightPeg]

That was genuinely one of the best passes I’ve ever seen in the flesh. As soon as he hit it he knew it was on the mark. 
 

He never broke his stride from hitting the pass to going to celebrate 

[Madjambo21]

He is definitely looking like the player we were expecting when he signed.

Played exceptionally well tonight

[jamboj]

Seems to be talking more and more, looks a foot taller than he was 4 months ago. Brilliant tonight

[RustyRightPeg]

Also another last ditch tackle on Miovski deflecting it wide. Becoming his trademark that. 

[tartofmidlothian]

Outstanding yet again.

 

Imagine how much Hibs would have ruined him.

[BudgeUp]

Sibbick.

 

He reminds me of a certain Lithuanian captain. Absolutely slaughtered at first but became a legend.

 

Here's hoping Sibs follows that trajectory.